Oh Snap
Smash Ace
We should defeintely let Falcon Falcon Punch us...it's only right...
Maybe he'll let us land a lightning kick.
Maybe he'll let us land a lightning kick.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED
- Thread starter RoyalBlood
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Except we can reliably land sweetspotted lightning kicks, Falcon punch on the other hand, cannot be landed reliably at all because of it's 99999999999 frames of starting lag.
Ok, there is deadly recovery, and a few other exceptions, but we should never get a falcon punch, whereas he should be getting lightning kicks every so often.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
So i guess this mean Mr. Falcon is finished right? >_>
Ok I'll update the OP
Ok I'll update the OP
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so whos next?
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
We'll be discussing Falco now :3
Someone go call the Falcos ^3^
Someone go call the Falcos ^3^
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
*shrug*
Falcos are common. I don't think I've ever not fought one in tourneys on or offline.
he can outcamp you, but you beat him in the air and you beat him on the ground. and you beat the daylights out of him off the stage if you force him low.... which Dsmash does.
I'm too tired for a big post, but tentative decision:
60:40 Zelda
do luigi's mansion first, battlefeild is 2nd best here
Falcos are common. I don't think I've ever not fought one in tourneys on or offline.
he can outcamp you, but you beat him in the air and you beat him on the ground. and you beat the daylights out of him off the stage if you force him low.... which Dsmash does.
I'm too tired for a big post, but tentative decision:
60:40 Zelda
do luigi's mansion first, battlefeild is 2nd best here
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Sonic that is like the smallest post i've seen you make in............. forever. lol
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I know right? but I'm brawling with my younger sister now so I really don't have the free time to write a humongous post. especially considering I'll sleep soon
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
I just love Lighting Kicking Falco when he charges his recovery. Soooo satisfying.
What really hurts Falco is his short recovery combined with Zelda´s downsmash near the edge. Falco goes down and gets edgehogged or edgeguarded.
In long range he beats Zelda with spam, and his aerial approach can be frustrating. He also has quite good F-smash and fast attacks, but he is outranged by Zelda. Despite his lazer spam he isn´t even actually too hard to approach.
I would give the advantage to Zelda, but nothing too tramatic. Maybe 55:45 or 60:40.
Also, Falcon got over so fast I didn´t even get to post my explanation why he in theory has total dominance over Zelda because he has teh pawnch...
What really hurts Falco is his short recovery combined with Zelda´s downsmash near the edge. Falco goes down and gets edgehogged or edgeguarded.
In long range he beats Zelda with spam, and his aerial approach can be frustrating. He also has quite good F-smash and fast attacks, but he is outranged by Zelda. Despite his lazer spam he isn´t even actually too hard to approach.
I would give the advantage to Zelda, but nothing too tramatic. Maybe 55:45 or 60:40.
Also, Falcon got over so fast I didn´t even get to post my explanation why he in theory has total dominance over Zelda because he has teh pawnch...
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Zelda v Falcon was over almost just as fast as Fox v Luigi, or Peach, on the Fox boards lol
Lord Yawgmoth
Smash Apprentice
Sorry I can't offer much of value to the discussion at hand, I just wanted to point out one more thing that I found about Diddy.
If you guys missed it in the tactics board, you can throw items for a couple frames after you initialize an airdodge.
The obvious use: Seemingly run over a banana and throw it at the same time.
Something I wonder if it will work: Diddy throws a banana, Zelda catches and throws it back instantaneously.
I'm going to try this as soon as I get to a Wii (I'm at my parents house)
Sorry again to derail the discussion.
If you guys missed it in the tactics board, you can throw items for a couple frames after you initialize an airdodge.
The obvious use: Seemingly run over a banana and throw it at the same time.
Something I wonder if it will work: Diddy throws a banana, Zelda catches and throws it back instantaneously.
I'm going to try this as soon as I get to a Wii (I'm at my parents house)Sorry again to derail the discussion.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I have no experience with Falco besides one that I did miserably in, So if anyone can post like some tips and stuff along with there ratio I would appreciate it.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
when i fight Falco the first thing that comes to mind is zone in close lol. it seems like so far everything needed has been said though. wheres the Falco mains at to contribute?
we should steal thier bread, i bet then they'd show up lol.
we should steal thier bread, i bet then they'd show up lol.
Daea
Smash Cadet
I don't think the matchup is in Zelda's favor at all like you've been saying - I'll explain in terms of each aspect of the fight.
First, if you play a campy, spammy Falco, it'll be extremely difficult to get by a wall of shdls and iaps if the Falco uses them correctly, especially because any laser will interrupt din's fire. So unless you get lucky and predict a phantasm exactly with a downsmash, you'll be forced to approach falco - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Zelda's approaches are that amazing.
Whoever said that Zelda beats out falco up-close/on the ground is most definitely wrong. Falco has one of the best close-range non-disjointed hitbox games in brawl. Even though Zelda is light, he can still pull of a pseudo-cg, using dthrow, ffdair, turn-around grab, repeat. Although it is not a 100% guaranteed cg, the frames in which you have to do something are very limited, meaning you're very likely to get grabbed again unless the Falco messes up. This means a guaranteed 30-50% on you right off the bat. Also, Falco has inarguably one of the best jabs, very fast and high priority, and his AAA combo coupled with a quick ftilt will keep you out of smash range as long as they space correctly. His uptilt juggles well and has good priority and speed as well. Falco's upsmash comes out relatively quickly for its high killing power, and his downsmash does as well. Even though Zelda's dsmash does have amazing low horizontal knockback and speed, imo that's really the only thing she's got going for her close-range wise - it's ridiculous to argue that Zelda's overall laggy close range combat abilities outmatch Falco's.
Aerial-wise - I really don't see how Zelda matches Falco here either. His dair is amazing for comboing, gimping, finishing, and spaced correctly, you cannot punish it even if he hits shield. His nair is similar to Zelda's, so I don't have much to say about that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out quicker than Zelda's and combos into a lot more if you autocancel it. Falco's upair and fair are rarely used, but like your upair, his is a good vertical killer, and unlike yours, even if your opponent airdodges the upair, falco's is fast enough so that he can immediately chase with a dair or bair. Speaking of which, his bair is definitely a better all-purpose move than either Zelda's fair or bair. Even though you might have more killing power with a sweetspot, Falco's bair is ridiculously fast, is a sex-kick, and is a really good horizontal killer when fresh. Even when it's not fresh, it links together for bair combo chains. Again, I don't see how Zelda's relatively slow and easy-to-see-coming aerials can match Falco's at all.
In reference to all the comments about Falco's lousy recovery - Falco's recovery isn't that bad. It's not as some members of the cast, but he has one of the longest horizontal recovey abilities in the game. You can't just argue that "oh, we'll dsmash him off and he can't use phantasm," because relying on solely one move to gimp a recovery is assuming a bit too much, don't you think? Most good Falco's will mix up the phantasm as well - they will recover into the ledge, onto the stage, shorten it, lengthen it, etc. Though it's easy for Zelda to punish a scrub Falco being predictable, it's an entirely different story when you face someone competent. Speaking of recoveries - am I wrong when I say that Zelda's isn't that great either? It's slow, easy to see coming, and if you speed-hug before she appears, she's forced to land on the stage with a fair amount of punisheable lag - something that falco can do very well with a dacus or fsmash. On the other hand - Falco's recovery is quick enough to be extremely hard to edgehog, and even if you force him to land on the stage, a canceled phantasm slides very far and lands with almost no lag at all. Yes, if you manage to get falco to recover from underneath, he will be in a very bad position, but competent Falcos are good at avoiding those situations.
Honestly, what're you going to do to Falco when you get him off the stage...spam din's fire? All you'll manage to do is hit the phantasm's trail while falco lands right next to you and punishes. Use your laggy aerials and try to sweetspot a fair or bair? Chances are that you'll miss and might even get yourself spiked via phantasm. On the other hand, if Falco gets you off the stage, your options are extremely limited. Yes you can air dodge all you want, but Falco's aerials have very low lag and come out very quick one after the other - and Zelda's air speed and mobility is relatively slow and poor. And, as I stated before, I find it fairly easy to speedhug and force a Zelda to recover onto the stage, allowing me to punish.
So, after those three aspects of the fight, what's Zelda left with? She has to approach a character that can spam lasers and iap away w/ no lag, a character that has superior close combat abilities, and a character that has superior aerial abilities. How is this matchup in anyway 60:40 in Zelda's favor...?
First, if you play a campy, spammy Falco, it'll be extremely difficult to get by a wall of shdls and iaps if the Falco uses them correctly, especially because any laser will interrupt din's fire. So unless you get lucky and predict a phantasm exactly with a downsmash, you'll be forced to approach falco - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Zelda's approaches are that amazing.
Whoever said that Zelda beats out falco up-close/on the ground is most definitely wrong. Falco has one of the best close-range non-disjointed hitbox games in brawl. Even though Zelda is light, he can still pull of a pseudo-cg, using dthrow, ffdair, turn-around grab, repeat. Although it is not a 100% guaranteed cg, the frames in which you have to do something are very limited, meaning you're very likely to get grabbed again unless the Falco messes up. This means a guaranteed 30-50% on you right off the bat. Also, Falco has inarguably one of the best jabs, very fast and high priority, and his AAA combo coupled with a quick ftilt will keep you out of smash range as long as they space correctly. His uptilt juggles well and has good priority and speed as well. Falco's upsmash comes out relatively quickly for its high killing power, and his downsmash does as well. Even though Zelda's dsmash does have amazing low horizontal knockback and speed, imo that's really the only thing she's got going for her close-range wise - it's ridiculous to argue that Zelda's overall laggy close range combat abilities outmatch Falco's.
Aerial-wise - I really don't see how Zelda matches Falco here either. His dair is amazing for comboing, gimping, finishing, and spaced correctly, you cannot punish it even if he hits shield. His nair is similar to Zelda's, so I don't have much to say about that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out quicker than Zelda's and combos into a lot more if you autocancel it. Falco's upair and fair are rarely used, but like your upair, his is a good vertical killer, and unlike yours, even if your opponent airdodges the upair, falco's is fast enough so that he can immediately chase with a dair or bair. Speaking of which, his bair is definitely a better all-purpose move than either Zelda's fair or bair. Even though you might have more killing power with a sweetspot, Falco's bair is ridiculously fast, is a sex-kick, and is a really good horizontal killer when fresh. Even when it's not fresh, it links together for bair combo chains. Again, I don't see how Zelda's relatively slow and easy-to-see-coming aerials can match Falco's at all.
In reference to all the comments about Falco's lousy recovery - Falco's recovery isn't that bad. It's not as some members of the cast, but he has one of the longest horizontal recovey abilities in the game. You can't just argue that "oh, we'll dsmash him off and he can't use phantasm," because relying on solely one move to gimp a recovery is assuming a bit too much, don't you think? Most good Falco's will mix up the phantasm as well - they will recover into the ledge, onto the stage, shorten it, lengthen it, etc. Though it's easy for Zelda to punish a scrub Falco being predictable, it's an entirely different story when you face someone competent. Speaking of recoveries - am I wrong when I say that Zelda's isn't that great either? It's slow, easy to see coming, and if you speed-hug before she appears, she's forced to land on the stage with a fair amount of punisheable lag - something that falco can do very well with a dacus or fsmash. On the other hand - Falco's recovery is quick enough to be extremely hard to edgehog, and even if you force him to land on the stage, a canceled phantasm slides very far and lands with almost no lag at all. Yes, if you manage to get falco to recover from underneath, he will be in a very bad position, but competent Falcos are good at avoiding those situations.
Honestly, what're you going to do to Falco when you get him off the stage...spam din's fire? All you'll manage to do is hit the phantasm's trail while falco lands right next to you and punishes. Use your laggy aerials and try to sweetspot a fair or bair? Chances are that you'll miss and might even get yourself spiked via phantasm. On the other hand, if Falco gets you off the stage, your options are extremely limited. Yes you can air dodge all you want, but Falco's aerials have very low lag and come out very quick one after the other - and Zelda's air speed and mobility is relatively slow and poor. And, as I stated before, I find it fairly easy to speedhug and force a Zelda to recover onto the stage, allowing me to punish.
So, after those three aspects of the fight, what's Zelda left with? She has to approach a character that can spam lasers and iap away w/ no lag, a character that has superior close combat abilities, and a character that has superior aerial abilities. How is this matchup in anyway 60:40 in Zelda's favor...?
Carbonated
Smash Cadet
Bread jokes are old now.
Anyways I'm not seeing how you guys say this match is 60:40 on Zelda's favour.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Usually, when you disagree with someone, you give reasons as to why.
I played a falco in tournament somewhat recently, and he tried his best to CG me to no avail. Unfortunately, dthrow to usmash is legit for a ton of damage, and he was able to land that without problem. If falco lands a grab, it is at least 20% for Zelda.
It is difficult since Dins is taken almost completely out for damage, but it can still be used for spacing since he has to react. His jab combo works far to well up close but he eats Usmashes.
I'm not sure of a number but I will make sure to play one this weekend (then I will come back with an odds number. I already have a match against Lobos lined up for TL (I know it is over, but I still would like to see how I do) and there is a falco or two that always shows up that I could play. I already know he hates Zelda (with any character... recently he gave up DDD-his best character-and started using Marth against my Zelda).
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Zelda gets Falco in a U-smash x2 because of his fall speed so that evens out the Falco 20% on Zelda but how much damage does U-smash gives?
Both of the above from 0% of course D:
Both of the above from 0% of course D:
D
Deleted member
Guest
the falco boards says this is a 60:40 advantage for zelda, i don't find that correct mainly for the sole reason that falco is a little ***** lol.
cons - he can out camp you hardcore and has a few tools that out space you. approaching him is even harder than usual because of lasers and shine. i don't have a problem with the dair but the bair is gay for some reason lol
pros - he can't chaingrab you which is good, his recovery is worse than yours, you can edge guard the illusion with a fsmash and combos are super easy. getting falco on platforms sets you up for a lot of kill moves at high %'s or nair combos at low %'s.
imo 50:50
preferred stage: Frigate orpheon or pokemon stadium 1
FO - this is a terrible falco stage, just get him on the right side of the stage and edge guard the hell out of him. i would say BF but BF is also a decent falco stage.
PS1 - the ledge screws falco even more than it screws you! platforms are good for combos and stage transformations keep falco moving instead of camping like a ***** lol
feel free to totally disagree with me on the stages, i'm really weird when it comes to stage picks, nobody understand me lol.
cons - he can out camp you hardcore and has a few tools that out space you. approaching him is even harder than usual because of lasers and shine. i don't have a problem with the dair but the bair is gay for some reason lol
pros - he can't chaingrab you which is good, his recovery is worse than yours, you can edge guard the illusion with a fsmash and combos are super easy. getting falco on platforms sets you up for a lot of kill moves at high %'s or nair combos at low %'s.
imo 50:50
preferred stage: Frigate orpheon or pokemon stadium 1
FO - this is a terrible falco stage, just get him on the right side of the stage and edge guard the hell out of him. i would say BF but BF is also a decent falco stage.
PS1 - the ledge screws falco even more than it screws you! platforms are good for combos and stage transformations keep falco moving instead of camping like a ***** lol
feel free to totally disagree with me on the stages, i'm really weird when it comes to stage picks, nobody understand me lol.
I really do see this as Zelda's advantage 60:40 definitely.
She does have a slightly better ground game firstly. His fastest smash, DSmash, hits on frame 6, whilst hers is on 4. Her FSmash and USmash are both faster than his. She can easily get the kill on him at the right percents, and with her power he'll be dying at around 100 - 120%. She also just about outranges his FSmash, so if she spaces right only the reflector or lasers can hit her. Reflector has be shielded or spotdodged and then Falco can be punished. She never has to be in close enough range for jab or ftilt to hit her. And if Falco rolls into her to jab, we can easily get a USmash, DSmash, Dtilt lock or Nayru's from the rolling lag.
Additionally, about their smashes. Falco will have a harder time spotdodging and rolling around hers. Her smashes are multihit and hit hard, whereas all his smashes and tilts in general are single hits and are easily spotdodged to DSmash or Nayru's or whatever.
About our close-combat game, we can SDI out of jab and roll right away to reset spacing. We can Dtilt lock falco reasonably at later percents (40% onwards) that combo into our smashes or the killer Utilt. His weight is perfect for the Dtilt - Utilt setup, and considering Dtilt has longer range than his fast jab, hits on frame 5, and has a good chance of tripping, he'll certainly be in trouble. DSmash and Nayru's are fast. One is easy to spotdodge, the other not so much. This means we can mix it up. When you think we'll do Dsmash, we can throw in Nayru's to mess with Falco's spotdodging timing. This actually makes her close-combat game quite unpredictable.
Falco cannot go aerial. And Zelda has no reason at all to take this fight in the air, and if she does, Nair does reasonably well. USmash, Uair and Utilt completely shut him down from this point and they kill him at very reasonable percents. I also find him one of the easiest characters to catch in her USmash because of his fall speed. Falco's weight is light. Expect 60% KO with Uair, around 105% with fresh USmash, and even less with Utilt (which is generally always fresh for the kill).
He has good horizontal recovery, but he's very easy to ledgehog with a fresh DSmash thrown in. DSmash will knock him away at an angle where he won't be able to recover, and this occurs at around 110% and over, making it a very reliable kill move on him. Also, Dtilt combos into DSmash very well, so we can build up damage at later percents to guarantee the KO on Falco with DSmash. About his recovery, if he uses phantasm (or whatever his side b is called), he lags at the end for another DSmash, USmash, FSmash, Utilt, or whatever one of Zelda's many kill moves she wishes to use. If he's too far and has to aim for the ledge, ledgehog, the timing is not strict.
The only advantage Falco has offstage is his Dair spike, but a good Zelda should see this coming and bypass with her invisibility frames. Falco needs to be fast to be able to pull it off on her.
So basically Falco outcamps her slightly (though she can reflect them), and he has the dair spike. But we shut down his aerial approaches, we have much stronger and much faster smashes that outrange his tilts and jabs (which are faster) and beat out his smashes with speed and priority. Offstage, DSmash with Falco's weight, fall speed, and below average vertical recovery make him one of the most susceptible to DSmash kills in the game.
And his CG is so hard to land on Zelda, let alone she's bloody hard to grab in the first place!
I'm sticking with 60:40 for this one, possibly higher. Zelda is definitely anti-falco.
She does have a slightly better ground game firstly. His fastest smash, DSmash, hits on frame 6, whilst hers is on 4. Her FSmash and USmash are both faster than his. She can easily get the kill on him at the right percents, and with her power he'll be dying at around 100 - 120%. She also just about outranges his FSmash, so if she spaces right only the reflector or lasers can hit her. Reflector has be shielded or spotdodged and then Falco can be punished. She never has to be in close enough range for jab or ftilt to hit her. And if Falco rolls into her to jab, we can easily get a USmash, DSmash, Dtilt lock or Nayru's from the rolling lag.
Additionally, about their smashes. Falco will have a harder time spotdodging and rolling around hers. Her smashes are multihit and hit hard, whereas all his smashes and tilts in general are single hits and are easily spotdodged to DSmash or Nayru's or whatever.
About our close-combat game, we can SDI out of jab and roll right away to reset spacing. We can Dtilt lock falco reasonably at later percents (40% onwards) that combo into our smashes or the killer Utilt. His weight is perfect for the Dtilt - Utilt setup, and considering Dtilt has longer range than his fast jab, hits on frame 5, and has a good chance of tripping, he'll certainly be in trouble. DSmash and Nayru's are fast. One is easy to spotdodge, the other not so much. This means we can mix it up. When you think we'll do Dsmash, we can throw in Nayru's to mess with Falco's spotdodging timing. This actually makes her close-combat game quite unpredictable.
Falco cannot go aerial. And Zelda has no reason at all to take this fight in the air, and if she does, Nair does reasonably well. USmash, Uair and Utilt completely shut him down from this point and they kill him at very reasonable percents. I also find him one of the easiest characters to catch in her USmash because of his fall speed. Falco's weight is light. Expect 60% KO with Uair, around 105% with fresh USmash, and even less with Utilt (which is generally always fresh for the kill).
He has good horizontal recovery, but he's very easy to ledgehog with a fresh DSmash thrown in. DSmash will knock him away at an angle where he won't be able to recover, and this occurs at around 110% and over, making it a very reliable kill move on him. Also, Dtilt combos into DSmash very well, so we can build up damage at later percents to guarantee the KO on Falco with DSmash. About his recovery, if he uses phantasm (or whatever his side b is called), he lags at the end for another DSmash, USmash, FSmash, Utilt, or whatever one of Zelda's many kill moves she wishes to use. If he's too far and has to aim for the ledge, ledgehog, the timing is not strict.
The only advantage Falco has offstage is his Dair spike, but a good Zelda should see this coming and bypass with her invisibility frames. Falco needs to be fast to be able to pull it off on her.
So basically Falco outcamps her slightly (though she can reflect them), and he has the dair spike. But we shut down his aerial approaches, we have much stronger and much faster smashes that outrange his tilts and jabs (which are faster) and beat out his smashes with speed and priority. Offstage, DSmash with Falco's weight, fall speed, and below average vertical recovery make him one of the most susceptible to DSmash kills in the game.
And his CG is so hard to land on Zelda, let alone she's bloody hard to grab in the first place!
I'm sticking with 60:40 for this one, possibly higher. Zelda is definitely anti-falco.
Villi
Smash Lord
Yeah, they've gotten pretty stale. :embarrass
I think it's 60:40 Zelda, but I'll have to explain later.
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
Just a quick note: Din's aimed at the ground near Falco will disrupt his laser spam relatively decently, so gliding these near him is a good way to end the laser spam.
It's not foolproof, of course, but it keeps him from camping the match away. Nayru's should be able to take care of the rest anyway.
It's not foolproof, of course, but it keeps him from camping the match away. Nayru's should be able to take care of the rest anyway.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Wow. Kataefi got this one. he pretty much covered anything I was going to say. So I guess I'll be breif.
let's look at what falco's got:
laser camping:
-Zelda can reflect with nayru's or glide din's as an approach. she'll come out ahead if they trade since din's will do the damage of 5-10 lasers depending. They force her to approach and take a little extra damage, but it's nothing huge really.
fast jabs and tilts:
- are they nice? sure, but are they a huge detriment to us? no. Why? Dsmash, Nayru's and Dtilt outspeed and Dtilt and Dsmash also outrange his jabs and tilts. if he's close enough to use them, we can get him off of us fast. nayru's lacks the range that the others have, but makes up for it with a huge lingering hitbox that makes it unspotdodgeable, invincibility frames on startup which allow it to counter attacks from falco AND hitboxes behind her which punish rollers AND can cause reversals near the edge.
Long range Fsmash:
-too bad ours is longer. Falcos do not land fsmash on zelda unless they trick her into it. they get outranged AND outsped on this move.
Chaingrab:
Doesn't work on zelda. try it, and we get a free lightning kick on your face because you put us in the perfect position to do so. try to cobo into dair, we counter with nayru;s which blocks dair with invincibility and then hits falco with crystals. Falco can grab zelda, sure, but his tricks don't work on her at all.
Dair:
- if zelda's on the ground, then you are an idiot and I hope you enjoy the Usmash chain or the Utilt that you are about to be hit with
-if zelda's in the air, she has a long airdodge and a uair wich outprioritizes and kills you. frankly, you need to catch her in a bad position.
-off the stage. luckily zelda's recovery teleports her to safety. it's not the best recovery, but it protects her from being intercepted and spiked. and if you go out to chase her and she teleports through you, then you just gave her momentum because she's now got great positioning on you.
Falco's Up+B:
-easy to edgeguard, easy to spike, crap range. hopefully you won't be forced to use this, but Zelda's Dsmash ensures that you probably will be.
Falco's Phantasm:
- at least half if not all the moves in zelda's repetoir have the ability to knock you out of it. a lot of the moves aren't even too demanding that you time them exactly. Fsmash, nayru's. nair and Usmash have lingering hitboxes that mean if you activate them a little early and have them placed right, they should catch falco. Dsmash, uair, bair, dair and fair require better timing, but tend to have scarrier results. uair even keeps you safe from retaliation. of course you always have the option to punish once he lands or just OoS Usmash him. people say zelda's recovery i predictable, falco's goes straight forward. he has the option to cancel it and go almost nowhere, but he can't mix up his direction. if he cancels it, neither of ou hit, so noone wins. that seems like a good deal in our favour.
Aerial game:
-Falco lacks what it takes to stay safe from zelda: long range/disjoints. from the front he's COMPLETELY vulnerable to being lightning kicked. up close I think our nair normally beats out his, but they are about equal. from below him, he might have dair, but our Uair wins. Same case when he's below us normally, though our dair can at least parry his uair, which is not something his can do to ours, and his uair, while good, does not have near the power ours does.
Stages:
-Zelda normally fears Lylat cruise, halberd and delfino because of what those ledges do to our recovery. luckily, they do THE EXACT SAME THING to falco's SideB. so even our sorst stages are not bad stages against falco. however, our good stages are still good. Mansion HALTS his laser game and protects us from his dacus with ceilings. in fact, he'll have a hard time killing us there, but our Dsmash still kills just as well. Battlefield is as good for us as normal and doesn't give falco any special advantage. Falco's best bet is probably to take us to FD so he can be campy with lasers, but that's about all he's got on us. if we ban it, I'm not sure he even has the option to counterpick us.
Dacus:
-yup. falco's still got it. we have quite a bit that stops him from approaching with it, but it's still a perfectly viable follow up to a lot of his attacks. luckily it's one of the few things he's got on zelda so it in and of itself isn't enough to give him the advantage. Especially if he finds himself needing it to rack up our damage.
Reflector:
it's no a move falcos normally use a lot, but it outranges anything we've got which will make spacing against him a pain.
All in all, falco gets outclassed by zelda in the matchup. she doesn't destroy him utterly (though if she presses down+B he's tilt lockable) but he's definitely got an uphill battle. What makes falco so highly rated, among other things, is his dair gimp, his laser camp and his chaingrab. while laser camping still works, the other two do not, and his core game just doesn't get around zelda's core game easily. he has trouble getting inside and MORE trouble staying there. he can get her in the air, but he's no better there than she is. He just doesn't have anything that is very threatening to zelda's gameplay so nothing discourages the sparkly cannon from blowing him away. He's got some attack speed to be sure, so he will get around zelda some, but not enough to counteract all she's got going for her.
60:40 Zelda pick Luigi's mansion
let's look at what falco's got:
laser camping:
-Zelda can reflect with nayru's or glide din's as an approach. she'll come out ahead if they trade since din's will do the damage of 5-10 lasers depending. They force her to approach and take a little extra damage, but it's nothing huge really.
fast jabs and tilts:
- are they nice? sure, but are they a huge detriment to us? no. Why? Dsmash, Nayru's and Dtilt outspeed and Dtilt and Dsmash also outrange his jabs and tilts. if he's close enough to use them, we can get him off of us fast. nayru's lacks the range that the others have, but makes up for it with a huge lingering hitbox that makes it unspotdodgeable, invincibility frames on startup which allow it to counter attacks from falco AND hitboxes behind her which punish rollers AND can cause reversals near the edge.
Long range Fsmash:
-too bad ours is longer. Falcos do not land fsmash on zelda unless they trick her into it. they get outranged AND outsped on this move.
Chaingrab:
Doesn't work on zelda. try it, and we get a free lightning kick on your face because you put us in the perfect position to do so. try to cobo into dair, we counter with nayru;s which blocks dair with invincibility and then hits falco with crystals. Falco can grab zelda, sure, but his tricks don't work on her at all.
Dair:
- if zelda's on the ground, then you are an idiot and I hope you enjoy the Usmash chain or the Utilt that you are about to be hit with
-if zelda's in the air, she has a long airdodge and a uair wich outprioritizes and kills you. frankly, you need to catch her in a bad position.
-off the stage. luckily zelda's recovery teleports her to safety. it's not the best recovery, but it protects her from being intercepted and spiked. and if you go out to chase her and she teleports through you, then you just gave her momentum because she's now got great positioning on you.
Falco's Up+B:
-easy to edgeguard, easy to spike, crap range. hopefully you won't be forced to use this, but Zelda's Dsmash ensures that you probably will be.
Falco's Phantasm:
- at least half if not all the moves in zelda's repetoir have the ability to knock you out of it. a lot of the moves aren't even too demanding that you time them exactly. Fsmash, nayru's. nair and Usmash have lingering hitboxes that mean if you activate them a little early and have them placed right, they should catch falco. Dsmash, uair, bair, dair and fair require better timing, but tend to have scarrier results. uair even keeps you safe from retaliation. of course you always have the option to punish once he lands or just OoS Usmash him. people say zelda's recovery i predictable, falco's goes straight forward. he has the option to cancel it and go almost nowhere, but he can't mix up his direction. if he cancels it, neither of ou hit, so noone wins. that seems like a good deal in our favour.
Aerial game:
-Falco lacks what it takes to stay safe from zelda: long range/disjoints. from the front he's COMPLETELY vulnerable to being lightning kicked. up close I think our nair normally beats out his, but they are about equal. from below him, he might have dair, but our Uair wins. Same case when he's below us normally, though our dair can at least parry his uair, which is not something his can do to ours, and his uair, while good, does not have near the power ours does.
Stages:
-Zelda normally fears Lylat cruise, halberd and delfino because of what those ledges do to our recovery. luckily, they do THE EXACT SAME THING to falco's SideB. so even our sorst stages are not bad stages against falco. however, our good stages are still good. Mansion HALTS his laser game and protects us from his dacus with ceilings. in fact, he'll have a hard time killing us there, but our Dsmash still kills just as well. Battlefield is as good for us as normal and doesn't give falco any special advantage. Falco's best bet is probably to take us to FD so he can be campy with lasers, but that's about all he's got on us. if we ban it, I'm not sure he even has the option to counterpick us.
Dacus:
-yup. falco's still got it. we have quite a bit that stops him from approaching with it, but it's still a perfectly viable follow up to a lot of his attacks. luckily it's one of the few things he's got on zelda so it in and of itself isn't enough to give him the advantage. Especially if he finds himself needing it to rack up our damage.
Reflector:
it's no a move falcos normally use a lot, but it outranges anything we've got which will make spacing against him a pain.
All in all, falco gets outclassed by zelda in the matchup. she doesn't destroy him utterly (though if she presses down+B he's tilt lockable) but he's definitely got an uphill battle. What makes falco so highly rated, among other things, is his dair gimp, his laser camp and his chaingrab. while laser camping still works, the other two do not, and his core game just doesn't get around zelda's core game easily. he has trouble getting inside and MORE trouble staying there. he can get her in the air, but he's no better there than she is. He just doesn't have anything that is very threatening to zelda's gameplay so nothing discourages the sparkly cannon from blowing him away. He's got some attack speed to be sure, so he will get around zelda some, but not enough to counteract all she's got going for her.
60:40 Zelda pick Luigi's mansion
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It would be very helpful if people didn't post acronyms that make little sense outside of their homeboard.
Besides, if he's firing lasers, then chances are Zelda is far away. Once she closes distance, he needs to stop shooting lasers or he'll get hit... but when Zelda reaches that point, she's already taken part of the approaching battle as it stands. It's like people read about her general approaches, conclude that she has to approach, and then deem her as disdavantaged. It doesn't really matter because closing distance can be done by anyone, and then she outranges Falco on the ground. So much for her bad approaches hurting her significantly.
Uh, you're telling me that some string of attacks that starts out from a grab and are entirely based off of player skill, prediction, and situational conditions is worth mentioning? That would be equivalent to me saying that at low damages and near the edge, ftilt -> bair -> predict that he's going to move in quickly -> Nayru's -> dair. I'm sorry, but stuff like that doesn't really hold in match-up discussions, because that's stuff that could happen, not the raw things that define these numbers.
His jab is certainly better than Zelda's. It could be argued that Zelda will never be in range of it, but Falco shouldn't use jab then. It's good. Unless Falco's ftilt outranges Zelda's Fsmash (and by an amount so you don't get a hit when one does some stupid animation or whatever), then ftilt keeping her away doesn't really mean that it'll be very effective at stopping her. Utilt is good, but he's only landing that move when he's right on Zelda or when she's above him, and really, being able to fight her dair isn't exactly amazing.
His smash attacks are, at best, even with Zelda's. Hers come out faster and kill just as well (if not better). The difference between the two is that his smash attacks are single-hit while all of hers are multi-hit (Dsmash being a possible two-hit combo). The tradeoff here is that you might be able to DI out of Zelda's Fsmash, but I don't think Falco gets out of Usmash reliably unless it is horrible spaced. Her Dsmash is better than his, period. They both do the same thing, but hers is faster and has more range. If there's a power difference in his favor, then that's nice, but it would be very small, and if she hits with both kicks, then that's easily doing more damage than Falco's smash attacks.
Dsmash is one of her staple moves, but the main thing you need to be watching out for is dtilt. It locks at lower-mid damages (depending on decay) and it pretty much guarantees a Dsmash afterwards unless the opponent is DIing back from dtilt and stays out of its range, though that would be using Dsmash when you know it won't reach. After the Dsmash combo, everything else is virtually fresh. If it doesn't kill Falco, it'll place him in a bad position even with good DI, as this sets up edgeguarding, and Zelda is effective at edgeguarding Falco.
Besides, Falco fights at a range that Zelda lingers out of for the most part.
I hate how people say "Zelda's slow and easy to read" yet the other character in question is always hard to read. Nair, fair, and bair all come out in 8 frames or less. The kicks outrange Falco, too. Uair hits past anything Falco can throw out, even though that one is relatively easy to read anyway, so whatever. I guess people think that Zelda is jumping up high in the sky and coming down with fair or something. Rising fair/bair and SH fair/bair are the way to go. Nair works like Falco's nair does, being that it's an all-purpose move. It's good. Dair is situational.
Her aerials are, overall, subpar... but it doesn't matter because Zelda isn't going to willingly dogfight there anyway. Either get back to the ground or just aim one aerial and watch the opponent take a lot of damage and very possibly die.
Zelda's recovery isn't good... but some of the stuff you're saying doesn't make sense. If he's grabbing the edge from her and she lands on the stage... how is he going to DACUS? He can't move that fast. Falco's recovery isn't extremely hard to edgeguard. It's probably not easy for most characters, but it's definitely easier for Zelda and it certainly is not hard to edgeguard. A reappearance on the stage also has very little lag (when you consider the hitbox anyway).
All the stuff you said about "a good Falco this and that" is irrelevant because we're talking about top playing and having two evenly matched, very good players.
It's called Nayru's. He'll just miss the attack on her, get caught by the actual attack, and take up to about 14% while being thrown right back off the stage. Prediction and timing is all it takes, but hell, even if you both start the moves at the same time, you'll be getting caught by this since Zelda is under invincibility before the attack comes out.
Zelda being punished after using Up B means absolutely nothing for Falco because this can happen to her against any character in the game and is partially based off of player error and partially off of any walls you've created for her. It certainly has nothing to do with Falco.
Powershielding Falco's laser spam isn't even all that difficult. Din's and Nayru's helps a lot here, but powershielding helps too. Also, you can approach with a powershield...
Besides, if he's firing lasers, then chances are Zelda is far away. Once she closes distance, he needs to stop shooting lasers or he'll get hit... but when Zelda reaches that point, she's already taken part of the approaching battle as it stands. It's like people read about her general approaches, conclude that she has to approach, and then deem her as disdavantaged. It doesn't really matter because closing distance can be done by anyone, and then she outranges Falco on the ground. So much for her bad approaches hurting her significantly.
Zelda has mostly disjointed attacks, and all of her jointed attacks are generally quicker than a lot of what Falco can dish out and/or outrange him. She also spaces quite effectively against him with Fsmash, ftilt, and dtilt.
Uh, you're telling me that some string of attacks that starts out from a grab and are entirely based off of player skill, prediction, and situational conditions is worth mentioning? That would be equivalent to me saying that at low damages and near the edge, ftilt -> bair -> predict that he's going to move in quickly -> Nayru's -> dair. I'm sorry, but stuff like that doesn't really hold in match-up discussions, because that's stuff that could happen, not the raw things that define these numbers.
His jab is certainly better than Zelda's. It could be argued that Zelda will never be in range of it, but Falco shouldn't use jab then. It's good. Unless Falco's ftilt outranges Zelda's Fsmash (and by an amount so you don't get a hit when one does some stupid animation or whatever), then ftilt keeping her away doesn't really mean that it'll be very effective at stopping her. Utilt is good, but he's only landing that move when he's right on Zelda or when she's above him, and really, being able to fight her dair isn't exactly amazing.
His smash attacks are, at best, even with Zelda's. Hers come out faster and kill just as well (if not better). The difference between the two is that his smash attacks are single-hit while all of hers are multi-hit (Dsmash being a possible two-hit combo). The tradeoff here is that you might be able to DI out of Zelda's Fsmash, but I don't think Falco gets out of Usmash reliably unless it is horrible spaced. Her Dsmash is better than his, period. They both do the same thing, but hers is faster and has more range. If there's a power difference in his favor, then that's nice, but it would be very small, and if she hits with both kicks, then that's easily doing more damage than Falco's smash attacks.
Dsmash is one of her staple moves, but the main thing you need to be watching out for is dtilt. It locks at lower-mid damages (depending on decay) and it pretty much guarantees a Dsmash afterwards unless the opponent is DIing back from dtilt and stays out of its range, though that would be using Dsmash when you know it won't reach. After the Dsmash combo, everything else is virtually fresh. If it doesn't kill Falco, it'll place him in a bad position even with good DI, as this sets up edgeguarding, and Zelda is effective at edgeguarding Falco.
Besides, Falco fights at a range that Zelda lingers out of for the most part.
His nair is quicker than Zelda's, but both serve the same purpose. That said, she should be using fair and bair against his nair, as those are what hit first anyway. It's unlikely that the two will be using nair against each other anyway. Falco being able to chase after missing an uair is not only situational and presumptious since Zelda can do the same as she has less distance to move thanks to a much larger uair, but it doesn't place his uair at some sort of advantage. His bair is probably better.
I hate how people say "Zelda's slow and easy to read" yet the other character in question is always hard to read. Nair, fair, and bair all come out in 8 frames or less. The kicks outrange Falco, too. Uair hits past anything Falco can throw out, even though that one is relatively easy to read anyway, so whatever. I guess people think that Zelda is jumping up high in the sky and coming down with fair or something. Rising fair/bair and SH fair/bair are the way to go. Nair works like Falco's nair does, being that it's an all-purpose move. It's good. Dair is situational.
Her aerials are, overall, subpar... but it doesn't matter because Zelda isn't going to willingly dogfight there anyway. Either get back to the ground or just aim one aerial and watch the opponent take a lot of damage and very possibly die.
Dsmash gets him off the stage already in an unfavorable position, but it does not gimp Side B. From that point, all you have to do is stand by the edge and, as soon as you go off, hit B. Timed properly, this will stop Falco's Side B no matter if he goes from the edge or the stage and it'll knock him back out or into the stage, depending on which way Zelda is facing. He can mix it up with his Up B, but there's a chance he can be edgehogged, and besides, he shouldn't be using that often if Side B gets him back.
Zelda's recovery isn't good... but some of the stuff you're saying doesn't make sense. If he's grabbing the edge from her and she lands on the stage... how is he going to DACUS? He can't move that fast. Falco's recovery isn't extremely hard to edgeguard. It's probably not easy for most characters, but it's definitely easier for Zelda and it certainly is not hard to edgeguard. A reappearance on the stage also has very little lag (when you consider the hitbox anyway).
All the stuff you said about "a good Falco this and that" is irrelevant because we're talking about top playing and having two evenly matched, very good players.
lolno.
Fair comes out on frame 8. Bair comes out on frame 5. Laggy? lolno.
It's called Nayru's. He'll just miss the attack on her, get caught by the actual attack, and take up to about 14% while being thrown right back off the stage. Prediction and timing is all it takes, but hell, even if you both start the moves at the same time, you'll be getting caught by this since Zelda is under invincibility before the attack comes out.
Zelda being punished after using Up B means absolutely nothing for Falco because this can happen to her against any character in the game and is partially based off of player error and partially off of any walls you've created for her. It certainly has nothing to do with Falco.
See above, and also remember that anything dealing with "well a good Falco can do this and that" and "messing up" only apply to actual matches, not match-up discussions.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I know we said any stage that doesn't gimp zelda is good... but why was corneria picked as a good stage against C. falcon? I mean, it wasn't one suggested by anyone nor is it one of zelda's best stages in fact, I'd say the sloping ground makes it easier to approach zelda for C. falcon and the ridiculously close blast zones allow falcon to actually KO with Uair if he gets you near the edge. and it lets falcon wing camp if he gets a stock advantage.
We'll probably still win there, but it's not the best stage coice. When stage choice doesn't really matter, why don't you say so, or at least pick one of zelda's best stages. I mean I suppose we get early kills against him here, but I still wouldn't CP it against falcon. I'd go somewhere simple. like smashville or battlefield or even FD.
I know it looks boring to see the same stages over and over in the recomended stage selection, but that's because they work. And it's easier if we focus on a few stages to get really good at. playing on BF, FD, SV and LM as often as we do we should be able to legewarp 100% of the time on all of them, for example, from familiarity.
We'll probably still win there, but it's not the best stage coice. When stage choice doesn't really matter, why don't you say so, or at least pick one of zelda's best stages. I mean I suppose we get early kills against him here, but I still wouldn't CP it against falcon. I'd go somewhere simple. like smashville or battlefield or even FD.
I know it looks boring to see the same stages over and over in the recomended stage selection, but that's because they work. And it's easier if we focus on a few stages to get really good at. playing on BF, FD, SV and LM as often as we do we should be able to legewarp 100% of the time on all of them, for example, from familiarity.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Now that you mention it, I agree. I think the FD would be the best choice of the three you listed, because Zelda really doesn´t need the plattform advantage of BF and the stage doesn´t give any help to Falcon.
And I think the Zelda view of Falco vs Zelda is pretty much concluded. Some Falco players could still voice their opinions about the match though...
And I think the Zelda view of Falco vs Zelda is pretty much concluded. Some Falco players could still voice their opinions about the match though...
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
but where are all the Falcos? ive seen like 2 other than myself. i mostly agree with the Zelda view of the matchup anyway. but what about Jungle Japes as a CP for either of them?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
oh god no. it's so much easier to camp on japes. if he stands there on one of the side platforms, his normally slightly irritating laser camping becomes much more bothersome. we'd have to approach him through the laser spam in the air... and that wouldn't be fun. both of us hate that water too. just no. not a good stage for us, especially against campers.
against captain falcon, I agree with half-split (though I liked his old icon better) going FD against C Falcon completely removes the threat of his knee and makes it super hard for him to approach us, and we still do just as well as ever on battlefeild. one of those two stages is my recomendation
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Jungle Japes is quite bad stage for Zelda, but I don´t know how good or bad it is for Falco.
It could work as CP for him because it gives him a bit more recovery choices with phantasm and spamming Falco is actually quite hard to approach there. On the other hand though, Zelda can hit with Dins even when Falco can´t hit with lasers, but they should be easy to dodge or guard...
And do you mean my angry Zelda avatar Sonic?
It could work as CP for him because it gives him a bit more recovery choices with phantasm and spamming Falco is actually quite hard to approach there. On the other hand though, Zelda can hit with Dins even when Falco can´t hit with lasers, but they should be easy to dodge or guard...
And do you mean my angry Zelda avatar Sonic?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Eirika is better.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah. honestly japes isa bad zelda stage. I'd almost never use it to CP anyone. I'm not sure it's a fantastic falco stage, but I'll bet it hurts zelda more than it hurts him.
and yes I meant the angry zelda. because she was blue. <3 blue zelda. and eirika is just meh. if it were fiora or lyn , Tana or marisa, we could talk.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Don´t worry, Marisa will come in some point. Angry Zelda might also make a comeback, but that isn´t sure.
/end of off-topic conversation
So, has anyone even informed Falcos were discussing him?
/end of off-topic conversation
So, has anyone even informed Falcos were discussing him?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
it is done (I stole their bread!)
(wewt marisa... so underapreciated. she made the best assassin ever!)
and, yes, assassins are not a great class, but Sacred Stones had NO difficulty curve so assassins were perfectly viable
plus. they are cool
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
***assins suck.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
So why aren´t Falcos contributing, I wonder? Maybe they agree with 60:40? If they don´t start commenting anytime soon I thing we can move forward.
I wonder who will be next... my other mains still haven´t shown up.
I wonder who will be next... my other mains still haven´t shown up.
Off-topic again: lol at bread. Lol at censored assassin. And yes, Marisa owns. If not any way else with her supports: "You want me to kill you?" (support with Joshua)
"Dtilt and Dsmash also outrange his jabs and tilts"
Ummm I don't think so... http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=OBWgZAhABZM
I think as long as Falco doesn't jump into Zelda's ****(Same situation with GaW) he'll be perfectly fine. Then again, I haven't played a good Zelda. With Falco's speed, I see it troublesome for Zelda to get her hits in. As long as the Falco player isn't an idiot, they should be able to recover.
Ummm I don't think so... http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=OBWgZAhABZM
I think as long as Falco doesn't jump into Zelda's ****(Same situation with GaW) he'll be perfectly fine. Then again, I haven't played a good Zelda. With Falco's speed, I see it troublesome for Zelda to get her hits in. As long as the Falco player isn't an idiot, they should be able to recover.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
You're comparing the range of a G&W fair (when G&W isn't even moving forward) to that?
I say that Fsmash, having the best range, is a better thing to use there instead of dtilt and Dsmash, but whatever.
The other opponent being fast does not hurt Zelda's game that much... well, maybe against Sonic.
I say that Fsmash, having the best range, is a better thing to use there instead of dtilt and Dsmash, but whatever.
The other opponent being fast does not hurt Zelda's game that much... well, maybe against Sonic.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
maybe they just agree, or are just oblivious atm. im hoping the former rather than the latter.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
but you don't know. and you didn't test to find out. instead you showed it clanking with a 9. Zelda's Dtilt and Dsmash actually have respectable range and amazing speed. they'll outspeed his tilts. and probably clank with jab. jab isn't going to outrange zelda though. maybe if the video were of zelda and the moves in question it'd have more weight
ftl
Smash Journeyman
Well, I don't know the Zelda matchup too well...
...but I CAN contribute that Jungle Japes is a really good Falco stage. His phantasm goes between the various edges pretty much perfectly, and the fact that there are all of these gaps in the level into moving water make dair spikes into the water relatively common (compared to how often a Falco would usually get off-stage dairs).
Perhaps Zelda is one of the characters that can outcamp Falco from the middle platform... but unless you're really really sure of that, stay away from Japes against Falcos, most of them will love that stage and know it like the back of their hand.
...but I CAN contribute that Jungle Japes is a really good Falco stage. His phantasm goes between the various edges pretty much perfectly, and the fact that there are all of these gaps in the level into moving water make dair spikes into the water relatively common (compared to how often a Falco would usually get off-stage dairs).
Perhaps Zelda is one of the characters that can outcamp Falco from the middle platform... but unless you're really really sure of that, stay away from Japes against Falcos, most of them will love that stage and know it like the back of their hand.