Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[adumbrodeus]

U know alot about Zelda, Sonic the Hedgedawg...lol
The only time Din's will be a problem for Lucas is when he is trying to recover with PKT
Other than that we can jus zap jump(Din's wont touch Lucas) or magnet pull for recovery...as Lucas magnet pulls he can absorb Din's quickly

We already know this, it's well-understood that using Din's fire stupidly won't do anything.

btw, add "or needs to recover" between "recover" and "with" on the second line.

 

[Kataefi]

The thing is, Lucas succumbs to the Dtilt lock pretty bad. It must be something to do with his animation. A lock to DSmash can get around 30% and put him in a critical stage to recover with his pk thunder (whatever it's called), and that just cries out din's.

Zap jump recovery is easily scouted. He also doesn't want to be that high up in the air, because Zelda's uair is waiting, and it kills at freakishly low percents.

I think they go even. They have tools to absolutely wreck each other. Possible slight advantage either way, though I'm thinking Lucas fares slightly worse than ness. Ness' aerials and pk fire are dangerous. Lucas' Dair does 2 percent per hit and doesn't really rack up the damage on Zelda... especially if she spotdodges > USmash, which will catch him.

 

[Villi]

The thing is, Lucas succumbs to the Dtilt lock pretty bad. It must be something to do with his animation.

? What makes you say he has it worse than any other character? Numbers, testing, random WiFi match against someone who didn't know how to DI it....

 

[lil cj]

We already know this, it's well-understood that using Din's fire stupidly won't do anything.

btw, add "or needs to recover" between "recover" and "with" on the second line.

lol
I was jus sayin...
and thanks for pointing out the literary errors i didnt even notice it...lol

? What makes you say he has it worse than any other character? Numbers, testing, random WiFi match against someone who didn't know how to DI it....

I think the dtilt lock is worst on Lucas and Ness b/c it has something to do with their release/trip animations....similar to why Marth can death grab them.
Wario also has this weird animation...which is why Zelda has an infinite grab release on him

 

[Kataefi]

His trip percentage? Everytime I dtilt he seems to trip (slight exaggeration but he trips a lot when I fight him and use it).

It's either that or I'm extremely lucky :? Do you know when the lock is most effective against him?

 

[MrEh]

similar to why Marth can death grab them.

I don't think the tripping is related to the grab release.

Wario also has this weird animation...which is why Zelda has an infinite grab release on him

Zelda doesn't have an infinite on Wario. The only characters that do are Bowser and Yoshi.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think the tripping is related to the grab release.

He's just saying that both are long, which causes problems in both situations.

Zelda doesn't have an infinite on Wario. The only characters that do are Bowser and Yoshi.

Actually, without second jump, a couple of other characters have it, Ganondorf included I believe. Not that it matters.

Also as I remember, DDD can pivot grab an infinite.

 

[MrEh]

He's just saying that both are long, which causes problems in both situations.

Gotcha.

Actually, without second jump, a couple of other characters have it, Ganondorf included I believe. Not that it matters.

I wasn't including that.

Too bad Wario is so hard to grab...

Also as I remember, DDD can pivot grab an infinite.

That's Dedede's grab shenanigans for ya. ><

 

[Villi]

His trip percentage? Everytime I dtilt he seems to trip (slight exaggeration but he trips a lot when I fight him and use it).

It's either that or I'm extremely lucky :? Do you know when the lock is most effective against him?

Unless he falls on his ***, he didn't trip. There's another animation at mid percentages where they'll stumble which causes more hitstun and allows you to continue the lock (except DK and Samus AFAIK). Everyone has it. At low percents, they just get a regular hitstun animation where they can act before Zelda can.

 

[prOAPC]

Lucas' Dair does 2 percent per hit and doesn't really rack up the damage on Zelda... especially if she spotdodges > USmash, which will catch him.

Lucas Dair does 5% per hit, it has 4 hits, so if you hit with all of them, it does 20% (sometimes it does 21%), not only that,it combos to fsmah and it's a set up for a jab lock at middle % (like 80%)

there's nothing wrong with Lucas trip rate or trip animation, if that were right, then the diddy match up would be a pain in the neck. I don't know how Zelda's dtilt lock works, but there's no reason to say it is worse for Lucas than other character

 

[Brinzy]

The smaller the character, the better it works, though I agree that it's not a special threat to Lucas.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah your right it does do 5% my mistake. I tested it when it was decayed. How easy is it to SDI just out of curiosity?

 

[PKNintendo]

MrEh, you always post about grab releases, and options done on Ness/Lucas.

What do you have a vendetta on them or what?
-.-

 

[MrEh]

MrEh, you always post about grab releases, and options done on Ness/Lucas.

What do you have a vendetta on them or what?
-.-

Nah, I love Ness and Lucas.

I just like grab release testing. I did the original testing for Bowser ages ago.

 

[PKNintendo]

I on the other hand detest them. Typical response though, if actually mained someone with that problem you would be like me, and If I mained someone without that problem, I would probably be like you.

 

[Brinzy]

I dunno, considering my top two characters are the most and least affected by that type of stuff... I'm pretty torn. Dammit, Ness.

 

[MrEh]

I dunno, considering my top two characters are the most and least affected by that type of stuff... I'm pretty torn. Dammit, Ness.

DK is actually immune to most grab releases.

And Lucas has it even worse then Ness. Bowser can chaingrab him all the way across Final Destination. XD

 

[NinjaLink]

DK is immune to grab release period. He only has 20 frames of immobility and no one can take advantage of that, not even bowser. Lucas and Ness is the same, grab release wise.

 

[MrEh]

DK is immune to grab release period.

No he's not. Jump releases work just fine on him.

When he gets jump release, he has 50 frames of immobility, just like everyone else. The 20 frames of immobility only apply to his ground release.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Added a very vague summary for Marth and added other things
Changed the stages you wanted
Linked Kataefi's Chart :3
So have you guys reached an agreement, JUST ASKING ;D

Edit : Now i have to do the other 21 explanations and i'm done ;___;
Good Lord that Kataefi is writing the in-depth summaries ^_^

Edit 2 : Added Ike explanation ¬_¬;;

Edit 3 : T____T Idiot Smashboards ;_; stop reformatting my former format >_>

 

[sniperworm]

No he's not. Jump releases work just fine on him.

When he gets jump release, he has 50 frames of immobility, just like everyone else. The 20 frames of immobility only apply to his ground release.

I dunno, he basically seems like he's immune. DK is pretty huge, can anyone actually force him to jump break (because I'm assuming a DK with half a brain won't make himself jump break)? Maybe Snake is tall enough?

 

[MrEh]

I dunno, he basically seems like he's immune.

He's immune to ground releases, but not jump releases. Characters like Sonic and Bowser can hit him pretty easily if he jumps out. 30 or 20 frames is an easy window of opportunity to take advantage of.

DK is pretty huge, can anyone actually force him to jump break (because I'm assuming a DK with half a brain won't make himself jump break)? Maybe Snake is tall enough?

Nope, no character can force DK to jump release, since DK is classified as a "tall character."

Unless you grab him over a ledge, then he'll auto-jump release.

 

[RoyalBlood]

what happened to the Lucases =O

Numbers pl0x

 

[Brinzy]

I probably should've been a bit more careful with my wording.

DK has DDD's infinite to deal with. At least Zelda does not have that.

 

[goodkid]

Have we talked about Falco yet? Castle Siege is such a good counterpick for Falco! On the beginning stage, you can camp on the left side, & duck to avoid the lasers!

 

[Kataefi]

I think they go even

 

[RoyalBlood]

So it's Lucas VS Zelda 50:50

(now that the lucases are dead >_>)

You should start discussing a CP for him ;D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

either stages that are good for zelda or bad for lucas clearly.

we all know what zelda does well on, but do we know stages that are bad for lucas? if so, do we know if they are worse for lucas than zelda's good stages are good for her in the matchup?

 

[RoyalBlood]

wait wut? >_> <_<

How about Rainbow Cruise =O Pokemon Stadium 2 and Lylat Cruise are ho9rrible in my experience ;_;

Edit : ZSS is now finished >_>_>_<_< Stupid reformatting

Edit 2 : Should I update? This seems kind of dead, maybe the New Year *sigh*

 

[GreyFox86]

I would say LM for him but that's like the CP for alot. Not that its a bad choice, just trying to spread the stage options.

Is PS2 (lol) a legal CP? There is also my favorite for zelda battlefield and frigate

 

[RoyalBlood]

I went to investigate and they don't like Lylat Cruise Nor Castle Siege =O

I'll stay with Castle Siege ^_^

I think it'sa time to update ;3

 

[Kataefi]

Love the summaries royal. They're fun to read =D

I don't think Wario's too problematic. It's just his weight that bothers me. He doesn't really have a lot of kill options on Zelda though when he racks up the damage. He fights similar to jigglypuff except he is stronger and heavier and his DI is ridiculously good. He'll bait zelda in this match and punish her mistakes.

But erm... yeah USmash outprioritises his aerials. FSmash is really good at disrupting his flow in the air even if he can semi-escape it. On the ground FSmash totally outranges him. His small, so Dtilt is doubly effective here. Utilt trades again, so make the tradeoff if he's really struggling.

Also... if he uses his up b for recovery, it's a free lightning kick. His recovery never autosweetspots the ledge on the way up. DSmash certainly forces himself into this situation, so Dtilt lock > DSmash > edgeguard > LK is a viable means of finishing him off - if not then any attack really to catch him off guard.

I have to say it ... grab release > LK is amazing... but he's hard to grab.

 

[Villi]

If you snipe him off his bike while he's recovering, he doesn't get a bike jump.

 

[NinjaLink]

Grab release to Dair on the edge.

 

[Villi]

Grab release to Dair on the edge.

Omg that's the meanest thing I've ever read.

 

[Kataefi]

I didn't know that :/

So dsmash > din's > ledgehog kills him?

EDIT:::: grab release > dair didn't even cross my mind ;O that is amazing! wait so DSmash to force his use of up b and then grab him from his unsweetspotted recovery thingy and then spike = instant kill?

 

[PhantomX]

Have you guys even PLAYED a Wario? No kill options? DSmash forcing an Up B (this will only ever happen if they're DIing down... for whatever reason)? What on earth o_O

Ninjalink's made the most valid point, but with a ground speed like Zelda's, grabbing Wario off the edge would be very difficult. Grab release > LK was also true. The rest of it though...

This matchup is gay, really gay for Wario, b/c you guys are giant masses of priority. You also have a projectile, but that doesn't even matter when your airdodge is as broken as ours is, heh. Your upsmash is quite easily your greatest tool against us, but once it starts you're committed to it, and we can bait it out pretty easily w/ our DI. Our shieldgrab range is also way larger than it has any right to be, so we can punish you for missing. Once you're airborne the game is ours, handsdown, unless you land a lucky lightning spike. Claps will rack up damage like CRAZY, and our fsmash kills you at about 100%. We also have waft, a five frame kill move that will kill you even sooner, and we can use it once a minute. Wario can also gimp Zelda quite well with Fairs and nairs (nair comes out in four frames I believe).

From my experience this matchup is decidedly even, maybe VERY slightly in Zelda's favor at best. If you manage to Nayru's love our waft, pause the game and take a bow, haha. I've only ever HEARD of it happen, haven't witnessed it... YET

 

[RoyalBlood]

Love the summaries royal. They're fun to read =D

I don't think Wario's too problematic. It's just his weight that bothers me. He doesn't really have a lot of kill options on Zelda though when he racks up the damage. He fights similar to jigglypuff except he is stronger and heavier and his DI is ridiculously good. He'll bait zelda in this match and punish her mistakes.

But erm... yeah USmash outprioritises his aerials. FSmash is really good at disrupting his flow in the air even if he can semi-escape it. On the ground FSmash totally outranges him. His small, so Dtilt is doubly effective here. Utilt trades again, so make the tradeoff if he's really struggling.

Also... if he uses his up b for recovery, it's a free lightning kick. His recovery never autosweetspots the ledge on the way up. DSmash certainly forces himself into this situation, so Dtilt lock > DSmash > edgeguard > LK is a viable means of finishing him off - if not then any attack really to catch him off guard.

I have to say it ... grab release > LK is amazing... but he's hard to grab.

Woot Thanks ;3 But they're pretty vague, they just add lenght to the thread so it looks pretty That's why I got you for writing in depth >:3

I really don't know a lot about Wario except for Grab releases

Added Ness btw... if someone who uses Ness can check it I would appreciate it since most of the stuff I typed was from my experience playing as Peach against Ness ¬¬ I think Mr. Successor of Raphael uses Ness?? :0

 

[Kataefi]

^^ phantoX I still havn't seen that picture yet!

Also - DSmash does tend to force up b's from characters because of it's trajectory. I'm only saying this when used from the edge, not in the middle of the stage.

EDIT:: Wario's kills options? I always thought they were fsmash, uair and waft. Maybe he has more...

 

[PhantomX]

He has ftilt, and first hit of nair as well... but yeah... if Wario had any more he'd be like a super heavy, super broken Game and Watch, lol.

TL using dsmash on the YI slant isn't enough to get us to up B, the bike jump is TREMENDOUS. And if we even marginally hop off the bike, your Din's Fire will shoot us upwards, as opposed to just making us tumble, so you don't get that freebie.