Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

Oh well, >_> I'll try, <_<

Someone go get the Lucases? >_> Lucas' =O

 

[Chuee]

Lucas can absorb dins fyar hehe. Anyways zelda has fast smashes and powerful Fair and Bair. Zelda's neutral B reflects our pk fire which takes a big part of our spacing down. Lucas will probably approach with a Dair so he doesnt get smashed. Lucas can possibly gimp zelda with his PKT. Thats about all that i know bout this matchup.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah... I think they go quite even. Lucas' range on the ground is bad compared to Zelda's, she can even outrange his FSmash with Dtilt. Nayru's is good, as she'll be able to recover just as quickly as he'll recover from firing the PK fire if she misses.

I seem to Dtilt lock Lucas really really really well. Does he have a higher percentage of tripping? Because never seems to react in time before the next Dtilt comes out.

Does Din's gimp Lucas? If so, I bet DSmash > Din's would be really good here in this situation. PK thunder is good and bad. If Zelda's quick enough to FW back on the stage, Lucas won't be able to cancel the duration of his thunder, so she can setup an LK or smash. But he can gimp her if it does connect.

 

[lil cj]

As a Lucas and Zelda main I know a little bit about this match up
First off...Lucas and Zelda are very similar than you might think...

A defensive Zelda can do good against an agressive Lucas IMO

I think Lucas' dair is one of the only dairs(along with Dedede's) that can out prioritize Zelda's up smash
And I find it easy to nair combo and juggle Zelda in the air with uair

Lucas should never have to worry about Din's...its too easily dodged and we hav psi magnet.
Also Zelda can be gimped very easily with PKT and even spiked with bair/dair...Zelda's recovery is too predictable.

Zelda's dtilt does very good against Lucas...he can get locked very easily
Zelda has Nayru's to reflect our best spacing tool...PK fire will sometimes disappear before hitting us depending on how far away we are.

Both Lucas and Zelda have quick attacks used to get the opponent out of thier face....Lucas' being jab and ftilt...Zelda's being Nayru's Love and Dsmash...
Lucas' jab and ftilt is faster than Nayru's but way slower than Zelda's dsmash....so this should used more than Nayru's when u want Lucas out of your grill

Zelda does better against Lucas than most characters with a projectile(psi magnet benefits) b/c she definitely has the kill power,defense, and range
But Lucas is way faster with his jabs, nair, dtilt, and ftilt...and we have more approach options

Zelda's game consist of making her opponent approach..and Din's isnt goin to do that in this match up
So I think this match up is 60-40 in Lucas' favor...we hav more advantages.

But Zelda can jus transform into Sheik and take care of Lucas by racking up quick damage....then finishing the job by switching back to Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

since the comparision will always be made, let's look at lucas compared to ness. we have ness listed as a neutral matchup. so what do I think about lucas in comparison? well I think he's tougher, but only slightly, and I also feel that ness has the tiniest disadvatage against zelda. so I'd be thinking that, while ness might be 49:51 against zelda, Lucas would be 51:49. I'm sure those numbers don't really mean anything at this point, I'm just throwing them out for an example. I think both matchups are essentially even with zelda. Lucas, however, is a lot more straightforward. Ness has to play more creatively to beat zelda, but lucas doesn't have to mix up his gameplay any and he can do at least decently against her.

Lucas has a few things going for him here:

• Dair goes through Usmash
• Fsmash is very good for punishing whiffs
• Usmash punnishes nonsweetspotted farore's
• PK magnet makes din's camping impossible. while it doesn't negate Din's, it makes it more difficult to use.
• PK fire is hard to reflect effectively.

and while that's all well and good for Lucas, Zelda still outranges him on the ground and lucas has punishable lag that's gonna cause problems for him if he whiffs. for the most part zelda has more lag, but she's also got more range and more punch, so that balances out.

Lucas can DI out of smashes pretty neatly, but as long as zelda is on her toes, lucas shouldn't be able to capitalize on doing so (dsmash out of usmash will outspeed anything nasty lucas could have done instead)

he's harder to kill than ness by a lot, though he;s a LOT less threatening aerially where he's vulnerable from all sides except the front. He's also got more reliable kill moves though they don't kill as early.

all in all, the trades that lucas makes from ness vs. zelda work in his advantage, but not greatly so. lucas is definitely not a hard matchup. it's 55:45 at the worst, I don't see it as our advantage though, so 50:50 - 45:55 lucas would be my vote.

 

[Kataefi]

Lucas' dair is a lot like Lucario's - you can spotdodge to Usmash quite consistently, but you can't take it head on. Best to spotdodge > USmash or shield and punish. Or SH uair. It also does 2% per hit, and is easy quite easy to SDI out of. It lags as well if it's used close to the ground - this can be punishable.

His recovery is amazing. But in contrast, all his moves don't have a downward trajectory like Zelda's DSmash. Zelda should be DIing so that she can safely land on stage without having to use FW as much. He also succumbs to the Dtilt lock pretty badly.

His ground game is non-existent compared to Zelda's. He's completely outranged and outprioritised by her reach except for PK Fire, but when I hear him say that, nayru's arrives. He has to generally go aerial.

I just find he struggles to build damage up in this match to kill her. Pk thunder isn't that bad. I just airdodge and sometimes din's in the air to hit him as the move still goes on.

I think they go even! Zelda's FSmash and jab are really useful in this matchup for me.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

sonic the hedgedawg pretty much covered everything.
i do think we can capitalize on DI'ing out of the smash attacks (Fsmash, usmash). just jab/ftilt/utilt, the first two being more reasonable. still i always thought it was 45-55 for lucas, maybe even.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sonic the hedgedawg pretty much covered everything.
i do think we can capitalize on DI'ing out of the smash attacks (Fsmash, usmash). just jab/ftilt/utilt, the first two being more reasonable. still i always thought it was 45-55 for lucas, maybe even.

if we pull out a Dsmash out of you DIing out, if you didn't respond IMMEDIATELY to DIing out, we're probably at least going to parry you. Then again, maybe not, but at least you're going to have to use a fast move and you can't capitilize with a KO move

 

[Irsic]

Lucas can DI out of smashes pretty neatly, but as long as zelda is on her toes, lucas shouldn't be able to capitalize on doing so (dsmash out of usmash will outspeed anything nasty lucas could have done instead)

This is false. If we DI out, we can do 2 things while still in the air - either uair or nair to flinch you. Once we're on the ground, we can jab or dtilt. If we get to the ground right as you start your dsmash, we can shield grab you, especially with the tether grab, you won't be able to knock us far enough.

Also slightly related, Din's Fire is far too slow of a projectile to ever hit with it. The only likely scenario I can think of is a tech chase, and if we are attempting to recover from nearly under the stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is false. If we DI out, we can do 2 things while still in the air - either uair or nair to flinch you. Once we're on the ground, we can jab or dtilt. If we get to the ground right as you start your dsmash, we can shield grab you, especially with the tether grab, you won't be able to knock us far enough.

Also slightly related, Din's Fire is far too slow of a projectile to ever hit with it. The only likely scenario I can think of is a tech chase, and if we are attempting to recover from nearly under the stage.

I really don't think you can possibly expect that you'll get a nair or uair out in time. True their are enough frames for it, but you'll be slaming like crazy to get out of USmash. Typical human reaction time isn't going to get out an attack in time, especially with buffering misinterpereting your SDI as some random aerial.

I've NEVER been hit by a lucas DIing out of usmas by anything but a jab or dtilt, and that's not a very scary prospect.


Din's punishes someone prone at a distance and can bait lucas in some ways. she can't get off the cheap shots she can against others, but she can punish a recovering or otherwise vulnerable lucas. but she probably won't be using the move much.

 

[Kataefi]

Why is lucas so susceptible to the lock? I just tested it and he keeps tripping. Is it something to do with his animation?

 

[MrEh]

I'm just popping in here, trying to be helpful. I don't use Zelda in the slightest. Nor Lucas. However, I feel that I can contribute some novelty information. I'm a Bowser main, which means I'll be contributing something that's my forte...grab releases.


First of all, I'll say this. While a large amount of the cast has some grab release option on Lucas, it is not something that should be spammed. (Unless you're something like Bowser or Jiggglypuff. More on that later.) Most Lucas players will probably not expect a Zelda player to know how to use grab releases to their advantage. So it's something to use a a surprise, perhaps once or twice a match. Anything more and the Lucas player will probably start using his little tricks on you to stop your grab releases, which makes it not all that worthwhile attempting them in the first place. Its usefulness comes from throwing it out at unpredictable moments. If it's predicted, it can be stopped. You must remember this.


Okay, we all should know by now that Lucas suffers from 10 extra frames of immobility after being released from a grab with a ground release. Can this flaw be exploited by Zelda?

The first things that people tend to test on Lucas is chaingrabs. Yes, we all wish that there was some super chaingrab that would solve our matchup problems with Lucas. In Bowser's case, that's sort of true, but not really for Zelda. You see, both the standing and running versions of Zelda's grab are too slow to grab Lucas in those 10 frames of immobility. (According to frame information, they come out on frame 12 and 11 respectively.)

Technically, it's possible to grab Lucas with Zelda's dashing grab, since that comes out on frame 11. Even though Lucas regains control after frame 10, the fastest thing he can do is either jab or spot dodge, both of which come out on frame 2. So it's possible to use your dashing grab with 1 frame to spare. However, the grabber (Zelda) cannot buffer attacks out of a grab release, so that means you're going to have to be frame perfect for this to work. Because the window of opportunity is only 1 frame, you would have to be insane to even attempt to grab Lucas again. Combined with Zelda's slow pummel speed, Lucas will be more prone to getting jump releases, making this chaingrab even more useless. Don't try it, ever. It's not worth it since you'll mess up, and you'll be punished badly for your stupidity. 1 frame is inhumanly hard to time, so don't do it. Ever. Seriously. Don't.

So no, Zelda cannot realistically chaingrab Lucas. Not that all surprising, considering that very few character's can do this effectively. Bowser can do it well because he gets 20(!) frames to grab Lucas, and if Lucas jumps out of his grab, he can chase him down and grab him again. Jigglypuff can do it well since she has a long grab range, and can grab Lucas in those 10 frames of immobility. If Lucas jumps out, she can hit him with an inescapable DACUS. (A lot of the Bowser testing was done by Vex at the Bowser boards. All of the Jigglypuff testing was done by me at the Jigglypuff boards. Look it up if you want )

Okay, so if chaingrabs are out of the question, then what attacks are fast enough to hit Lucas in those 10 frames? The only viable moves are your Dtilt and Dsmash. Your Dtilt comes out in 6 frames, so you have enough time to do it out of a ground release. Your Dtilt is a nice setup for a lot of things with its tripping and locking properties, but you Zelda mains know that already. However, if the Lucas you're fighting knows how to use Extra Inch DI, then he can slide out of Dtilt range. The Lucas player you are fighting should not immediately do this, since (s)he will probably not expect Zelda to have some sort of decent grab release option. (s)he will probably just think you're going to throw, so the thought of using EIDI probably won't occur to them. However, if you start getting predictable with your grab releases, which you shouldn't be, because I strongly advised earlier on that grab releases are not something to be spammed with Zelda, the Lucas player will probably be able to escape with their little trick.

Okay, so if they can stop the Dtilt if they know it's coming, what about the Dsmash? Well, this is where things get better. The Dsmash comes out on frame 4, making it pretty darn fast. The Dsmash has a pretty deceptive hitbox, and can hit Lucas out of a ground release. This can be very useful as a surprise move, especially if you haven't used grab releases in the match before and the Lucas player is unaware that you can do it. If the Lucas player sees it coming though, (s)he can use Extra Inch DI to escape it. However, there's a way around this. Because Zelda's Dsmash comes out fast, it's possible to move forward slightly and still have time to use the Dsmash. Zelda should be able to take a very tiny half step and still have enough time to use her Dsmash. If done correctly, Zelda's extra movement forward should be enough to strike Lucas. But really though, if you ever have to take a step forward, that means that Lucas is at the point where he's utilizing EIDI against you. That means that you got predictable with your grab releases, and he's now expecting it. That means that you should stop. Seriously. It's probably not worth it at this point now that the surprise factor is gone.

Okay, now with all that ground release stuff out of the way, what if Lucas jumps out of your grab? Can Zelda do anything? Sadly, she can't. Bowser can do stuff to Lucas when he jumps, but that's because he has 10 more frames then Zelda does. Jigglypuff can do stuff to Lucas, but that's because she has a DACUS, and it's blazing fast. Zelda simply cannot catch Lucas if he jumps out from your grab. She runs too slow and she sadly does not have a DACUS. So it's essentially useless to get a jump release.


So in the end, it can be used a surprise strike, but it's really just a novelty. The fact that Zelda cannot do anything to Lucas out of a jump release really limits your options, since all Lucas has to do is jump out of your grab and it would be a wasted grab. So all in all, it can be used, just don't spam it. Ever. If they start predicting what you're doing, then you're better off just throwing them for the damage.


And yes, I am crazy for testing such a useless thing like this. (thanks goes to RyokoYaksa and 3GOD for their frame data)

 

[Kataefi]

Ground release > Dtilt lock sounds brilliant!

Hmmm air release > farore's works, but I think it's unsafe.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda can probably safely get out a dash attack too, it's pretty fast

 

[Brinzy]

I was testing ground release -> Dsmash a few days ago, but Lucas goes too far back for this to work. I didn't test dtilt.

Also, while it's true that Zelda needs to be frame perfect (if Lucas is dodging frame perfectly), I still say that unless you're fighting someone of perfect reactions, it can be done. This is probably irrelevant in the first place.

Also, no, you can never uair/nair her after DIing out of Usmash. You're still going to be in hitstun and you're going to land. Also also, Din's is a worthless thing to talk about. It's either not there or it's an advantage. Characters like Robot, DDD, and Pit would have to at least be wary of Din's because it can be used on them effectively. Everyone else doesn't really have to worry about it because I'm probably only going to hit you with it once or twice per match, and that would be up close when I'm reading your attacks.

 

[Bandit]

The game against Lucas is a spacing game: who can keep proper spacing while avoiding the kill shot? His fsmash seems faster (I don't have frame data, so I am going from experience), his Usmash CAN'T BE AIR DODGED, and his Dsmash is surprisingly powerful. His Dair approach can be OoS punished, and he is not exactly heavy.

I'd put this as a fairly even match, maybe 55-45 Zelda.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

he's harder to kill than ness by a lot, though he;s a LOT less threatening aerially where he's vulnerable from all sides except the front. He's also got more reliable kill moves though they don't kill as early.

Our aerials definitely aren't as good as Ness, but I don't think we're absolutely helpless against someone not in front of us. Bair can spike in a fairly large arc behind Lucas and uair has good speed and deceptive range above and behind (mostly behind) Lucas. I'll grant that dair is hard to land meaningful hits with when it's not used out of a jump, but remember that the last hit is a spike, albeit a weak one.

@ Whoever asked if Din's Fire could gimp PK Thunder: Yes, it can remove the bolt, but of course hitting Lucas with it at the same time will let him try it again.

*inserts $0.02*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Our aerials definitely aren't as good as Ness, but I don't think we're absolutely helpless against someone not in front of us. Bair can spike in a fairly large arc behind Lucas and uair has good speed and deceptive range above and behind (mostly behind) Lucas. I'll grant that dair is hard to land meaningful hits with when it's not used out of a jump, but remember that the last hit is a spike, albeit a weak one.

@ Whoever asked if Din's Fire could gimp PK Thunder: Yes, it can remove the bolt, but of course hitting Lucas with it at the same time will let him try it again.

*inserts $0.02*

Then it's all about precision.

That said, in general, because of his vulnerable recovery, Lucas seems very vulnerable to Dins outstage. Even to simply being hit, because it gives him a good period he can't airdodge. But gimping with Din's fire is awesome.

 

[Kataefi]

So din's is a viable means of racking up damage offstage?

Dtilt lock>DSmash>din's seems like a good idea then - that's a hell of a lot of damage right there if he uses his recovery.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So din's is a viable means of racking up damage offstage?

Dtilt lock>DSmash>din's seems like a good idea then - that's a hell of a lot of damage right there if he uses his recovery.

If he needs up-b to recover. Just make sure you hit him with the right portion, your objective is to trap him, so you're looking to make it so if he psi magnets, he can't sweetspot. Either you get some nice damage, or he recovers above the ledge for a bit of edguarding. So, it's really more a brickwall then anything else.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

The game against Lucas is a spacing game: who can keep proper spacing while avoiding the kill shot? His fsmash seems faster (I don't have frame data, so I am going from experience), his Usmash CAN'T BE AIR DODGED, and his Dsmash is surprisingly powerful. His Dair approach can be OoS punished, and he is not exactly heavy.

I'd put this as a fairly even match, maybe 55-45 Zelda.

I assure you, his u-smash can be airdodged quite easily.

Zelda's fsmash is faster but I think Lucas's is much stronger.

 

[Brinzy]

But for the rest of the times where they like to use PK Fire and PSI Magnet to recover, try aiming for him with a kick or nair.

 

[MrEh]

Ground release > Dtilt lock sounds brilliant!

Good luck pulling that off. Possible though.

High risk, high reward.

Hmmm air release > farore's works, but I think it's unsafe.

Very unsafe.

I was testing ground release -> Dsmash a few days ago, but Lucas goes too far back for this to work. I didn't test dtilt.

If he's DIing out, it's still possible to hit him with the Dsmash. You just have to step forward slightly. Dunno, I guess I just do it on reflex, since Bowser has to step forward to Klaw...

 

[Kataefi]

Yep I think we can pretty much rule out grab releases for Zelda.

If he recover's with pk fire and psi magnet you can catch him unexpectedly with uair. His route is quite telegraphed and he goes up incredibly high.

Why MrEh, have you become a zelda main!?? Or are you still on the dark side with bowser?

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Just my 2 cents...but I haven't been gimped by a Din's Fire before, just because Lucas has so many recovery options to either get around it, or just absorb and Rope Snake. If Din's Fire starts coming out when I'm offstage, the Zelda better know exactly when they could hit me if I magnet pull, otherwise I gain life and make it back onstage.

Oh...and I might be the only one that's pulled this off against a Zelda before...but I generally SH Magnet approach a Dinspammer to gain life and shock them in return.

On the ground, Lucas gets kicked around, especially if the Zelda has great timing with Naryu's Love. In the air, air dodging and nair seems to work well. Lucas of course has to be careful around Zelda's auto sweetspots and uair, but in general his fair, bair and nair are quick enough to deal with it most of the time.

*bows out*

 

[MrEh]

Yep I think we can pretty much rule out grab releases for Zelda.

Unless a character has both a ground release and a jump release option, grab releases are pretty much useless. So yeah, we can rule it out.

Why MrEh, have you become a zelda main!?? Or are you still on the dark side with bowser.

Nah, I'm still a Bowser main. I lose to DarkMusician's Zelda too much for me to actually start using her. I wouldn't be able to stomach it. ><

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, assume that this match-up is not against a Din's spammer.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Our aerials definitely aren't as good as Ness, but I don't think we're absolutely helpless against someone not in front of us. Bair can spike in a fairly large arc behind Lucas and uair has good speed and deceptive range above and behind (mostly behind) Lucas. I'll grant that dair is hard to land meaningful hits with when it's not used out of a jump, but remember that the last hit is a spike, albeit a weak one.

it's not about whether they actually DO anything. Ness's aerials are pretty dang good at keeping zelda off of him in the air. Zelda's Uair beats out lucas's dair every time, Zelda's lightning kicks will pretty easily outspeed his bair for an easy sweetspot, and if lucas preempts his bair, it's easy enough to wait until after the move terminates to sweetspot it. it's AWFUL for trying to stop a lighting kick. his uair is fast, but it gets outprioritized by a sweetspotted lighting stomp and it's not as strong as ness's, so, for the most part, it behooves zelda to make the trade. his nair is fast and irritating, but it doesn't have a lot of range. he CAN get hit by any of zelda's aerials right out of it. his fair is the only aerial he has to defend against zelda's aerials.... that's just dangerous when all of her aerials will kill so easily.

@ Whoever asked if Din's Fire could gimp PK Thunder: Yes, it can remove the bolt, but of course hitting Lucas with it at the same time will let him try it again.

*inserts $0.02*

and, of course, if aimed correctily it WON'T hit lucas and will only hit his PKT.
Best case scenario: Zelda kills lucas for free.
Worst Case scenario: Zelda does about 16% Damage to lucas for free and kills at high damages.

either way, it seems like a win for zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

I think his bair deserves more credit than that. It has to be better than fair.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think his bair deserves more credit than that. It has to be better than fair.

no... it's really not. his fair is better. it comes out quick, has great range and is hard to punish. hi bair comes out slower that lighting kicks and has enough cooldown to make it more punishable. and it's not very threatening when it DOES connect, even sweetpotted it's none too strong. it's not a horrrible "Please **** me" move, but it does veryy little to protect you from **** either. you're better off trying to dodge it some other way.

 

[Villi]

Nair and dair are probably Lucas' best aerials. He likes to space with pk fiyuh, which is sometimes impossible to punish and sometimes e-z as powershielding.

Nair autocancels and at least occasionally allows him to weasel in or pressure shield. Nair dtilt fsmash... or any other dtilt fsmash variations are so gay.

 

[Brinzy]

Well I guess we really can't complain.

 

[Villi]

lol ........

 

[-Mars-]

Well I guess we really can't complain.

I actually laughed.

 

[prOAPC]

APC(LUCAS) VS JP(ZELDA)
this is a fight of my very first time vs Zelda, december 20th
i don't know how good that Zelda was (he didn't use neutral B, and used a grounded upB...), and i don't know much about the match up, but i can say that using Zelda's side B as an edgeguard is bad vs Lucas, Lucas can stall with down B, has many options to recover, not just pk thunder, and if he absorb the side B, he recovers like 30% Also, you can see in that fight that i could easily recover from Zelda's dsmash with DI+tether recover

 

[JigglyZelda003]

near the end her Dsmash was decayed to **** lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

but i can say that using Zelda's side B as an edgeguard is bad vs Lucas, Lucas can stall with down B, has many options to recover, not just pk thunder, and if he absorb the side B, he recovers like 30% Also, you can see in that fight that i could easily recover from Zelda's dsmash with DI+tether recover

Zelda's Dsmash forces him to require PKT2 to get back up and if zelda is patient with din's then, no, he can't absorb it and still recover. it's only when zelda jumps the gun that he can do that. though sometimes I'll indirectly kill with it.

e.g. Lucas is recovering I send out din's to bait lucas's PK magnet. he pulls it out which makes him fall to such a place that he'll have to try to sweetspot the ledge to recover, so I just edgehog him, or if he can make it back on stage I get up and Dsmash him to an awful position. I'm not saying Din's is excellent or anything, but it has it's uses... especially against his recovery. and if he decides not to risk it and just eats din's, so be it. free damage.

 

[prOAPC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h26ZRc1eCeA
recover from below is not a problem for Lucas, he can easily recover without the need to use pk thunder. Combine zap jump with magnet pull and Lucas can recover from everywhere
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrNQsOXGSXc

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

except that this would require that lucas have a double jump.... which he clearly wouldn't if he got himself into that position.

 

[lil cj]

U know alot about Zelda, Sonic the Hedgedawg...lol
The only time Din's will be a problem for Lucas is when he is trying to recover with PKT
Other than that we can jus zap jump(Din's wont touch Lucas) or magnet pull for recovery...as Lucas magnet pulls he can absorb Din's quickly
We can also air dodge it.
For this match up who ever spaces the best wins.
Even though Lucas has the advantage he could still lose to Zelda pretty badly if he doesnt utilize all his advantages.
Nair, Dair, ftilt and jab is too good against Zelda
Dsmash, Side Smash, and dtilt is too good against Lucas