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Zero Suit Samus Video Discussion

Teh-Shlurpie

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my 2nd tournament for Project M and my last one of 2.6. not sure how relevant it is to post here but i shall anyway
http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/485656055 (apologies for the quality, computer couldn't record & stream at the same time)
04:18:30 Me vs Link player spyce.
04:29:00 Me vs MK/Tink player Jolteon
i think i have a definite weakness as far as my general play goes in terms of AT usage and grab game. anything else blatantly obvious that i could work on?
 
D

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work on your punishment game. a lot of your stuff is not really threatening to the opponent so it just looks like you're going through the motions.
 

Nausicaa

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Why do you have the tag Oro when there's someone named Oro that posts around here.
Same person?

Otherwise, the way ZSS looks in all the vids in this entire thread look like they're in a different world than me.
Like literally EVERYONE!!!
So many N-Air's in both raw-neutrals and combos, so many Blasters, and SHFFing in general, so many moves > other moves instead of reverting to DD's or mobility.
So interesting...
All I do is DD D-Smash so I get Grab combos that usually end in something like Up-B into a tech-chase D-Smash and repeat, or a reset off a F-Air (not a fan of ending combos with sending people off-stage using N-Air/U-Air, only ever Down-B at high-% really). A lot more tilts, usually off pivots, maybe a Dash-Attack here and there, always moving between attacks rather than SHFFing another attack if one hits a shield or whiffs. So much more Up-B, especially out of neutral by baiting with Shield approaches and chasing with Grabs or D-Smash for combos.

Might use Blaster more if I can do a full-charged one sometime, but still not a fan of the move in general. At least not as a core to my BnB...
Like really, Pivot-D-Smash > free stunned Grab > Aerials (F-Air/D-Air/trying to hold them close) > Up-B or follow their DJ > repeat...
That's my target, and anything else is gravy.
You're all weird. XD

Edit: This is the closest vid I've seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFiENASTj8c
Still not campy enough, but the FH N-Airs and raw DD D-Smash and Grab stuff is close.
Replace all the SH N-Air approaches (and most SH Blasters) with DD's/WD's/Pivots/feinted D-Smash/Up-B OOS if overextending as close as some of those wild N-Airs went, and it's getting close to my style.
Editedit: Needs more of those hits converted into D-Smash too, rather than following with more Aerials. Down-B DivuKiku to end the combos more hard-core and while edge-guarding too.

I'm sure not every SH N-Air approach someone does is on reaction *coughOro*
It's called Neutral
 

Oro?!

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No he just uses my tag he told me.

PS Nausicaa I think you highly overrate DSmash in neutral, especially pivot dsmash. The only way to really get a dsmash in is if you basically read their approach to be short. WD back dsmash does the same thing in effect, but gets you out of any threat ranges that pivot would keep you in vs any good character. Everyone has either crazy hitboxes or crazy mobility in this game. DSmash can't be used in reaction to anything in high level play.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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i don't see how you can land Pivot Dsmashes often enough for it to be considered a core part of your gameplay. I feel i would get utterly destroyed by my regular practice partners if i used it more than occasionally.
I feel i have to switch up between campy / aggressive and blaster is the only thing that allows me to do both.
 

Vixen

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Late to post, because I've been practicing Pit for Apex, but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_O8rOkB8ck vs Silly Kyle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQ0qrFRClc vs Heysuess

I'm switching mains to ZSS after Apex, or at least keeping her as a pocket character. ZSS is way too much fun. Any advice? I'll be uploading videos of 3.0 ZSS very soon. Just gotta derp around my stream archive until I find the videos in question.

I tested tap jump off btw. I can't justify turning it off, Tap Jump is far too useful in too many situations to learn character specific tech with it off. Solid play > gimmicks.
 

ph00tbag

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Against Peach, I've found that if you attune yourself to Peach's jumpsquat, you can punish a lot of her stuff by just throwing out a paralyzer from long-mid range, then waiting to see if she jumps. If you do see jumpsquat, you can pretty much challenge her with a short hop uair, because she'll have to full jump to get over the laser, and her options aren't really that great from that angle vs. uair. Staying in a range that gives you time to throw out Paralyzers without getting punished is a key part to this match-up. Also, big stages! You don't really need to be concerned with killing Peach. Just keep her out and win exchanges with uair, and you'll be able to keep your lead. When you go to a small stage, you lose your distance game vs. Peach, and she can get up close and pillar the hell out of you.

Against DDD, and you seemed to realize this pretty quickly, you definitely want to take advantage of your free mobility and range. Don't go in on DDD just because he looks like he's on the defensive. Make him come to you--that'll give you a bit more control over his approach options.
 

Vixen

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Against Peach, I've found that if you attune yourself to Peach's jumpsquat, you can punish a lot of her stuff by just throwing out a paralyzer from long-mid range, then waiting to see if she jumps. If you do see jumpsquat, you can pretty much challenge her with a short hop uair, because she'll have to full jump to get over the laser, and her options aren't really that great from that angle vs. uair. Staying in a range that gives you time to throw out Paralyzers without getting punished is a key part to this match-up. Also, big stages! You don't really need to be concerned with killing Peach. Just keep her out and win exchanges with uair, and you'll be able to keep your lead. When you go to a small stage, you lose your distance game vs. Peach, and she can get up close and pillar the hell out of you.

Against DDD, and you seemed to realize this pretty quickly, you definitely want to take advantage of your free mobility and range. Don't go in on DDD just because he looks like he's on the defensive. Make him come to you--that'll give you a bit more control over his approach options.
What are the advantages of a large stage vs something like Wario Ware/YS/FoD? Even though it's a relatively small stages, the tiered platforms give me plenty of mobility, and give me two tiers of platforms for Zamus stuff.
 

ph00tbag

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Platform mobility can be nice, but ZSS wants to avoid being the first to the air in the match-up to begin with. Platforms are best for escaping the corner, and a middle platform on the second tier can be nice for giving ZSS an escape option once she's on the platforms, but by and large she wants to be controlling the middle of the bottom platform. It's hard to illustrate without a video, but my ZSS hindbrain gets anxious when at the center of WW, because in the time it takes me to fire a standing Paralyzer, most opponents can engage me and punish before I can cancel and do something. I'm pretty sure Peach is included. So I have to do it retreating, but that puts me right at the corner on WW. On larger stages like PS2, SV, etc. I can pressure an opponent on the ledge from the same spacing, but the retreating Paralyzer puts me closer to the center of the stage, so I haven't given up center stage control.

You generally want to approach the Peach match-up like Marth does ("do like Marth" is a common theme with ZSS, you'll find). It's more about just hitting her a bunch and not getting hit than it is about getting big combos and flashy KOs.
 

Vixen

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I don't like standing paralyzer at all. I always at least jump back and start a paralyzer. I'm also a fan of FJ paralyzer. Her aerial mobility is so good that you can cover a lot of ground as you safely fully charge. Falco/Pit player here, so I almost always at least SH/FJ my projectiles.

On WW the stage is small so I don't use my projectile very often. Her moveset is pretty good so I feel fairly safe in close quarters unless I'm shielding. Dtilt, DA Ftilt, utilt, instant uair, dair, etc are all pretty decent up close, and her whip moves do pretty good job of covering space. I'm also perfectly content with retreating to, or near the ledge. retreating pivot dsmash is pretty neat to catch an approach, and her ledge game is pretty legit as well.

Platform mobility can be nice, but ZSS wants to avoid being the first to the air in the match-up to begin with. Platforms are best for escaping the corner, and a middle platform on the second tier can be nice for giving ZSS an escape option once she's on the platforms, but by and large she wants to be controlling the middle of the bottom platform. It's hard to illustrate without a video, but my ZSS hindbrain gets anxious when at the center of WW, because in the time it takes me to fire a standing Paralyzer, most opponents can engage me and punish before I can cancel and do something. I'm pretty sure Peach is included. So I have to do it retreating, but that puts me right at the corner on WW. On larger stages like PS2, SV, etc. I can pressure an opponent on the ledge from the same spacing, but the retreating Paralyzer puts me closer to the center of the stage, so I haven't given up center stage control.

You generally want to approach the Peach match-up like Marth does ("do like Marth" is a common theme with ZSS, you'll find). It's more about just hitting her a bunch and not getting hit than it is about getting big combos and flashy KOs.
 

ph00tbag

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I don't like standing paralyzer at all. I always at least jump back and start a paralyzer. I'm also a fan of FJ paralyzer. Her aerial mobility is so good that you can cover a lot of ground as you safely fully charge. Falco/Pit player here, so I almost always at least SH/FJ my projectiles.
That's a pretty good habit to have. I was just trying to illustrate why standing paralyzer is a sub-par option, anyway.

On WW the stage is small so I don't use my projectile very often. Her moveset is pretty good so I feel fairly safe in close quarters unless I'm shielding. Dtilt, DA Ftilt, utilt, instant uair, dair, etc are all pretty decent up close, and her whip moves do pretty good job of covering space. I'm also perfectly content with retreating to, or near the ledge. retreating pivot dsmash is pretty neat to catch an approach, and her ledge game is pretty legit as well.
Once Peach gets to a range where the options you list are a threat to her, the match-up gets a whole lot harder, is what I'm trying to say here. Peach can play the mid-range poking and footsie game with ZSS. Dash Attack, dsmash and, FC nair and bair are all really strong moves that you don't really want to deal with (hell, even Peach Bomber is scary at that range), and if you just play keep-away, there's not really any reason for you to have to deal with them. If you want to keep fighting Peach in close quarters, that's fine. This is just some advice based on where I saw you struggling in the video you posted.

And ZSS's ledge game isn't really that strong. She has decent options for getting away, but her options for turning the tables are meager.
 

Vixen

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That's a pretty good habit to have. I was just trying to illustrate why standing paralyzer is a sub-par option, anyway.



Once Peach gets to a range where the options you list are a threat to her, the match-up gets a whole lot harder, is what I'm trying to say here. Peach can play the mid-range poking and footsie game with ZSS. Dash Attack, dsmash and, FC nair and bair are all really strong moves that you don't really want to deal with (hell, even Peach Bomber is scary at that range), and if you just play keep-away, there's not really any reason for you to have to deal with them. If you want to keep fighting Peach in close quarters, that's fine. This is just some advice based on where I saw you struggling in the video you posted.

And ZSS's ledge game isn't really that strong. She has decent options for getting away, but her options for turning the tables are meager.
getting away safely is perfectly acceptable.
 

ph00tbag

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One specific thing that seems really counterintuitive, but that you may want to look into: I've found fsmash to actually be a stronger option against ledgehopping than dsmash. Dsmash is nice if you want to catch your opponent losing their invincibility, but since its hitbox is so ephemeral, your opponent can refresh invincibility and just jump right through it, and the shorter (than fsmash) range means you often get punished. But fsmash is longer-ranged, and meaty, so your opponent often can't reach you with their ledge-hopped aerial, and it will often outlast their invincibility. It's not safe, so you usually have to be more sure, or have super good reaction time, but it's much more reliable.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Flip Jump is a tighter ledgestall loop than double jump. Neither is invincible for the duration of the loop, but I think Flip Jump just provides less opportunity for punishment.

Dsmash should actually be very close to plus on block. It was -4 in Brawl, and there's a bit of a shield stun increase in Melee, so you really shouldn't be getting punished for hitting a shield with dsmash unless you're running in every time. If your opponent is consistently trying to counterattack you out of dsmash on block, then try dash dancing away to bait a punish attempt.

Dash dance beats Ganondorf. You really shouldn't need to shield at all in this match-up. In fact, you can usually pivot grab all of his shffled approaches. As long as you keep an eye out for double jumps, which are beaten by usmash, you shouldn't really be struggling in this match-up. I think you had started to figure a lot of this out, but you suicided on your last stock (sadfaec).

Dair puts you above Ganondorf. Above Ganondorf is bad.

One thing I like doing that you might want to start looking into: after rising uair, on some characters, you can do a falling Plasma Wire, this actually does better for giving you follow-up opportunities than chasing with rising Plasma Wire, so it's a really good way to turn a juggle combo into a tech chase or edgeguard opportunity. Look for places to work this in. I noticed a few points in the Ganondorf match-up where you could probably have used this to great effect but went for a second uair and lost the juggle afterwards.

I don't really have a whole lot of advice for the Falco game. You played the match-up right, IMO, but it's really easy to get outplayed in that match-up, since the Falco doesn't have to be nearly as on-point as you do.

By the end, Jackie was baiting your ledge-hop fairs. Calm down, girl, you don't need to hit the guy every time.

Y'know, we used to have a guy around NC named Bill who was once playing Sheik in teams, and he went out against a Fox on the other team who was recovering and really had no chance of getting back. Bill reached the recovering Fox, and could have sealed the deal with a nair or a fair, but used a uair instead. The Fox recovered and Bill actually lost that stock. To this day, we call edgeguarding with uairs "Billguards." Although the term is used with a lot of love (well, with some of us, at least), I would not say that it is an accomplishment to be told that you've just Billguarded someone. That said, you were going mad hard on those Billguards against that Fox. You attempted a lot of Billguards throughout the set, and I have to say, I'm perplexed as to why, since I didn't see any real gain from succeeding, and you freqently seemed to get punished for them.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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Most of this is probably going to be things that i've picked up on and food for thought rather than direct advice

Link vs ZSS
you challenged him at the ledge and lost nearly every single time, you could try baiting a ledge hop fair or punishing a waveland, at best you can start another combo / knock him back off and at worst you reset the situation to neutral

perhaps try mixing up campy with aggressive a little more. seemed like he started predicting your aerial approaches and just sat near a platforms edge waiting for you to knock him off so he can Nair you.

vs Dorf

pretty much what ph00t said, more plasma wire would've been how i approached things. plasma wiring offstage instead of upairs can lead to many a free kill/gimp.

ultimately the only thing that let you down in these games were your SDs

vs Falco

I know / understand nothing about pm/melee falco and i will forever be his punching bag at this rate

however i have had varying degrees of success with crouch walking.

vs Fox

paid dearly for constant ledge hop fairs. i find flip jumping off from the ledge to have varying degrees of success

chasing fox offstage is something i decide to avoid due to mass amounts of being shine gimped in the midst of my combos.

---

i do like your stage mobility and i feel i can learn from it so thank you, and i had an evil smile each time you foot stooled.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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my Lucas experience is limited to one of my weekly practice partners but heres what i found out.

Never get grabbed by lucas, it will never end well for you, a grab at 80%+ and you can consider yourself dead.

spot dodging lucas' grab is ridiculously difficult so if you know he's going to do it roll away from him.
use more fairs in combos than you usually would, you want to send him horizontally not vertically.
I personally go for approaching lucas from above rather than the sides, this has worked for me but this could be limited to my partners weaknesses rather than lucas'.
i think Warioware / Green hill zone are good stages to take him to, possibly metal cavern if its legal (stage is not legal in the UK so have limited experience).
Wavedash backwards -> forward smash can harsly punish poorly spaced aerials

I honestly think this is a bad matchup for ol ZSS.
As for what i think you might be doing wrong? probably too many upairs letting him back on stage when you could be bairing/fairing even if it won't kill.
 

Daftatt

"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfUJJxEEtQ

Haven't Really put much work into her since I main Kirby. I wouldn't mind Having her as a secondary.

Any advice would be appreciated.
there were a lot of moments where up-tilt would have been a great option allowing air follow ups. Obviously you were throwing out a lot of whiffs, but the only way to fix that is better reads, D-smash/grab whiffs are really punishable so you should maybe just be more conservative with those moves. D-smash ledge guarding can work well though (as long as you are back from the ledge far enough to be safe). D-smashing while marth is right next to you and on a ground approach is a bad option, with marth, space-hit-run. Otherwise a good marth would fair the crap out of you, d-tilt poking is not good against marth either.

My marth strat.
Laser poke like a basterd, then plasma-whip space, go in with up-air if he leaves an opening maybe follow up with u-air. platform poke with plasma wire then punish rolls on platforms with bair. Be conscious that SDI can kill U-smash usage. If marth gives ground chase (going for dash-attack) then pivot-reverse slide grab, d-throw (or u-throw) and bair-kill. Dair is bad against marth plain and simple.
 

PuRple-H

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Yaaaow, ZSS Boards! Last weekend was a project m event in germany. That event had 62 Entrants in P;M.
I would love to get critique for my matches. Unfortnunately there aren't any matches recorded where I lost with ZSS lol

Anyways I managed to get 4th. I lost 3 times against Timi (Pools, WB, LSF). He's a Rob main but he used Fox against my Zamus... goddamn this matchup :(

I really hate this MU... I tried Marth in the loser bracket and lost pretty close I guess...

It would be awesome to get a little bit help for the ZSS - Fox MU. I don't want to play another char to win :x

Here are two Sets from loserbrackets:

vs. Otek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAwGRDXA18s

vs. Mawacate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orlKFwtmfXk

I'm thankfull for any help (:
 

Vixen

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Most of my matches weren't recorded but I beat Tee Ay Aye (Fox) 2-0 in winners, and GamerGuitarist7 in Losers, lost to K9 2-1 and Silly Kyle 2-0. Sad my K9 and Tai matches were lost, I had some amazing anti-fox tech I wanted to show everyone, and I need help vs MK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I20nWLLsRw vs GG7's Falcon, game 2 and 3 are amazeballs stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zYJkczzT7Y vs Silly Kyle's Peach who wrecks me.
 

Oro?!

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I updated the OP (Finally!)

Hopefully there will be incentive to post videos more frequently here. I might post sets every now and then, but for the most part all of my videos will be posted on youtube.com/windycitysmash unless I am out of state/region.
 

deadjames

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Here's a set from a tourney I hosted yesterday, it was my first time using ZSS in tournament so it's probably pretty rough. I only went ZSS in game 1 and 2. Match starts at 1:33:04 http://www.twitch.tv/strong_badam/b/503716495. I'm strongly considering changing my main from Peach to either ZSS or Ike and I welcome any constructive criticism.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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Here's a set from a tourney I hosted yesterday, it was my first time using ZSS in tournament so it's probably pretty rough. I only went ZSS in game 1 and 2. Match starts at 1:33:04 http://www.twitch.tv/strong_badam/b/503716495. I'm strongly considering changing my main from Peach to either ZSS or Ike and I welcome any constructive criticism.
Game 1:

Stay mobile, a lot of the time you just sit still not doing anything and letting your opponent get away without having to do/think about anything
You can dash immediately after a laser, you need to do this so you can follow up on hits/blocks
your follow ups are weak at the moment, but you just need to play more and get used to what you can/can't do

Game 2:

poor spacing on fox is an easy way to get yourself up-smashed
the only way you can get to fox is to outmaneuver him, work on mobility and how to bait him into committing.
 

deadjames

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Thanks for the input, but I doubt I'll be using ZSS again. One of the people I practice with recommended I go back to Mario who was my original main, so I guess I'm gonna take his advice and see how that works out for me at my next tourney.
 

deadjames

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Any critique on the videos I posted? ;_;
Against GG7 biggest things I noticed:
-Try to work on your punish game there were a lot of combos that you dropped that could've been continued
-Try not to over-commit to laggy moves like side-b, fsmash, and grab because Falcon will be in your face to punish before you know what's happening.
Against Silly Kyle
-Use uair a lot it makes Peach's life hell
-Try not to throw out dash attacks for no reason
-In general try to stay mobile, Peach is really slow so there's not much she can do to stop ZSS from running all over her.

That's my two cents, but I'm pretty new to this character, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can give their input.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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Most of my matches weren't recorded but I beat Tee Ay Aye (Fox) 2-0 in winners, and GamerGuitarist7 in Losers, lost to K9 2-1 and Silly Kyle 2-0. Sad my K9 and Tai matches were lost, I had some amazing anti-fox tech I wanted to show everyone, and I need help vs MK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I20nWLLsRw vs GG7's Falcon, game 2 and 3 are amazeballs stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zYJkczzT7Y vs Silly Kyle's Peach who wrecks me.
Against GG7
Work hard on your punish game, there were so many times he got back on to the stage for free because you didnt chase his Up Bs or you used Nair instead of Fair/Bair that could kill him
Try doing other things out of tech chases than just Dsmash, becomes easily predictable.
Play against falcon like you would against fox, consider a whiffed grab/poorly spaced side b like a death.
perhaps your platform pressure needs work, more than a few times you jump too high he shields and you get grabbed

Against Silly Kyle
Nothing matchup specific here (no experience vs what i could call a competent peach)

one thing i've noticed from a lot of the videos i've seen you in now is that you like to combo,combo,combo and commit heavily.
against peach maybe you need to go for repeated light hits and go for killing blows.

you like to do nairs that (in my opinion) could've been better served as fairs or bairs
 

Vixen

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Against GG7 biggest things I noticed:
-Try to work on your punish game there were a lot of combos that you dropped that could've been continued
-Try not to over-commit to laggy moves like side-b, fsmash, and grab because Falcon will be in your face to punish before you know what's happening.
Against Silly Kyle
-Use uair a lot it makes Peach's life hell
-Try not to throw out dash attacks for no reason
-In general try to stay mobile, Peach is really slow so there's not much she can do to stop ZSS from running all over her.

That's my two cents, but I'm pretty new to this character, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can give their input.
all dash attacks are failed pivots. as an fyi.,

Against GG7
Work hard on your punish game, there were so many times he got back on to the stage for free because you didnt chase his Up Bs or you used Nair instead of Fair/Bair that could kill him
Try doing other things out of tech chases than just Dsmash, becomes easily predictable.
Play against falcon like you would against fox, consider a whiffed grab/poorly spaced side b like a death.
perhaps your platform pressure needs work, more than a few times you jump too high he shields and you get grabbed

Against Silly Kyle
Nothing matchup specific here (no experience vs what i could call a competent peach)

one thing i've noticed from a lot of the videos i've seen you in now is that you like to combo,combo,combo and commit heavily.
against peach maybe you need to go for repeated light hits and go for killing blows.

you like to do nairs that (in my opinion) could've been better served as fairs or bairs
time stamps?
 
Last edited:

Vixen

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Against GG7
Work hard on your punish game, there were so many times he got back on to the stage for free because you didnt chase his Up Bs or you used Nair instead of Fair/Bair that could kill him
Try doing other things out of tech chases than just Dsmash, becomes easily predictable.
Play against falcon like you would against fox, consider a whiffed grab/poorly spaced side b like a death.
perhaps your platform pressure needs work, more than a few times you jump too high he shields and you get grabbed

Against Silly Kyle
Nothing matchup specific here (no experience vs what i could call a competent peach)

one thing i've noticed from a lot of the videos i've seen you in now is that you like to combo,combo,combo and commit heavily.
against peach maybe you need to go for repeated light hits and go for killing blows.

you like to do nairs that (in my opinion) could've been better served as fairs or bairs
time stamps?
what points do you want time stamps for specifically?
times i could have used a different move
 

Teh-Shlurpie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
321
Location
United Kingdom
time stamps?


times i could have used a different move
(these are my opinions and i leave it up to your judgement ofc)
0:27 up smashed instead of hitting him back off stage.
0:46 double nair (bair/fair might've killed)
2:06 charged dsmash when he DI'd high so he jumped over you
7:40 you let him jump back to the ledge for free(punished his ledge hop perfectly though)

i picked 4 that stood out to me the most, others are minor and felt unfair to critique.
 
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