7. Mr. Game & Watch- Sonic Counterpick/Ban discussion

[Jim Morrison]

sonic doesnt really have much trouble killing if you know what you are doing

They almost have the same amount of trouble killing, but I believe Sonic to have an easier time, because Diddy is lighter, has not as versatile recovery as Sonic, but still very good and Sonics kill moves, frankly, kill earlier. Still, killing at 140-180% is lame.

I think stages with low ceilings and large side blastzones will be decent for Sonic, because even though Sonic rarely does kill off top, Diddy never does unless the opponent is 190% or so (U-air IIRC). I think a level with platforms where you can U-air trough the platforms and SDR/SDJ all over the place. Brinstar would be a perfect example, because you have minimal space to run, making bananas less likely to trip, SDJ gets you both high and forward fast, you can catch bananas and have a hitbox. Spinshot is good for flying all over the level.
I'm heavily favoring Brinstar in this matchup.

I think FD is not that bad, it's more neutral, because everyone is like oh noez bananas are a gruonded barreir!!1, we are like lul spindash. Seriously, Spindashing right at your opponent has been discouraged so much, that it works prefectly fine. Just don't go from one side of FD spindashing all over to the other side. Also, while being a very odd example because of matchup/banana expierence, I'd still like to bring up Espy vs Le_Thien on FD (a classic), which shows that the bananas can be controlled by Sonic just as easy, taking away a chunk of Diddy's game. Smart Diddy's don't let this happen, but smart Sonic's are good at this, so yea <_<

Yoshi's Island Brawl is an even better stage against this, because it's the same as FD, smaller, iSDR makes SDR approach safer, you don't trip over bananas and the platform is always good. I give this stage a seal of approval.

I recommend staying away from Smashville for some reason, but it's not really that much of a problem, because it's like Yoshi's Island, except no iSDR to save you from getting hit out of SDR by a thrown banana for example. Also, the platform poses a pleasant alternate recovery option for Diddy.

I'm really unsure about Norfair, because I've never understood how Sonic did there. I would probably either ban this or FD (YI:B is a MUCH better choice) because once Diddy gets the stock lead, let the banana camping on the lowest platform begin. I've ****ed around with Diddy and this level, and it works quite well. The bananas aren't meant to trip anymore, but more to intercept and makes your opponent unable to land on the platform, because the Banana is falling again.

Rainbow Cruise is pretty meh, because on the first part of the stage, you can get nanner locked in the corner, but you have airdash (lol useless glitch on that stage because Diddy isn't high enough to get hit). I think Diddy's airgame is superior to Sonic because of his crazy F-air and B-air. Try fight him on the ground, or from below him. I wouldn't rely much on Rainbow Cruise, but the discussion is meant for other people too and if the majority thinks it's good, I'll add it to the OP.

/longest reply I made to a thread

 

[AvaricePanda]

This is a total bull**** argument in Sonic vs Diddy.

Lol.

Sonic has trouble killing. Diddy has trouble killing. Terios said that Japes could help because you have room to DI our smashes, making it harder for us to kill. But we can do the exact same thing against you. The advantage you get from this is essentially nullified because you'll also have the same problem.

Other than that, I agree with like everything Gf2tw said.

 

[Tenki]

It's somewhat easier for Diddy to set up his kill moves though IMO. I mean aside from his bananas, he has quick aerials that really push when sweet spotted :/

I'd suggest CPing RC and Brinstar (how well does Sonic do on Brinstar?). Japes doesn't sound that great to CP; the water doesn't hinder us any more, and the stage works well with banana camping and banana game in general. Granted, the high blast-zones gives you more room to DI, but we don't kill off the top, so it's not as much of an issue. Plus, Sonic also has trouble killing, so it's not going to really help any more.

I remember forever ago playing against someone who mained Diddy on wifi. I don't remember who it was but all I remember was that it was one of the more prominent offline Diddys and he said that Brinstar was one of his choice CP's. Any reasoning behind this? :/

 

[Kinzer]

It's somewhat easier for Diddy to set up his kill moves though IMO. I mean aside from his bananas, he has quick aerials that really push when sweet spotted :/


I remember forever ago playing against someone who mained Diddy on wifi. I don't remember who it was but all I remember was that it was one of the more prominent offline Diddys and he said that Brinstar was one of his choice CP's. Any reasoning behind this? :/

It's a trap!

But eh, lolwut @ Diddy having a better air-game than Sonic? Eh... Maybe I'm biased, because the only time I see a diddy in the air is to catch Nanerz and you getting read. I don't see why you wouldn't want to go to RC... just yeah don't get naner-locked on the wall. Brinstar seems like a stage that can go either way but this is me and maybe somebody else has something to say on that matter.

I need to get better @ this MU, seriously.

Don't go to Japes, just don't. There are better CPs than Japes.

...I guess you should strike/ban SV too... Gah, some rulesets don't have YI as a neutral, that's terrible.

Halberd has some far blastzones and a low-ceiling. There is a lot of ground and when it's the 2nd transformation, that gives Diddy another ledge to try and aim for if you're hogging the one closer... or he can just aim to the stage from under since he won't gimp himself doing that... It's just something I thought of when I saw "low ceiling, wide side-blastzones.

Uhm... what else... Oh.

Apparently there is some kind of stigma going around saying Sonic has trouble killing... I can understand set-ups and maybe being slow but other than that & the ladder... Gah!

Nothing else I think.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Fair is really good; long range, good priority, can kill at high percents. Uair is a good juggler, Nair can eat through airdodges and help juggle (usually pops opponent up) Bair is just a solid aerial, Dair is a spike, and Monkey Flip Kick has insanely good priority.

Diddy's air game is really good. I still think you should CP RC though; Sonic's options are limited when Diddy just camps with a banana in hand, and on this stage, Diddy can't do that as well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ok, this discussion is going pretty good, I just want to know other peoples opinions on Yoshi's Island: Brawl.
Is what I was talking about, about not being able to get hit with thrown nanas, only clank and no tripping over grounded bananas a good idea?
What stage is decent against Diddy's recovery?
I don't think Diddy's recovery is ****'d over on any CP stage IMO.

 

[Pheonix]

I usually pick Castle Siege against Diddy. The amount of platforms of that stage is good plus theres still room for Sonic to run around. Phases 1 and 3 can also mess with Diddy's recovery if you just hit it with a spring.

Diddys usually ban RC, so maybe you should leave that stage out?

 

[Kinzer]

You can't rule out the possibility that the stage is still there, if they don't ban it then by all means inform people of where to go.

 

[ADHD]

This matchup is funny there's no real great stages to fight on or ban. I've never heard of any sonic player counterpicking RC lol but I suppose it could be bc there aren't many out there.

 

[Boxob.]

ADHD your opinion doesn't really matter, you suck at this game.

 

[JayBee]

just to inform you guys, there are a ton of spots to isdr/airdash on Rainbow Cruise, especially near the top and on swinging platfomrs.

is pictochat banned? if not this may be a nice counter pick because if isdr in similar fashion to yoshi's and sonic seems really good fighting with stage hazards. discuss if it isn't banned (on EC or WC)

Norfair? i think its possibly easier for sonic to escpae setups by didy, and sonic also can work with the lava and stuff to gain extra damage, but i dont remember the blast zones well right now.

just ban SV if only for the familiarity factor. if on neutrals, i'd fight on yoshi's or BF due to the playforms.under diddy you have the advantage, and you have methods of escaping naners.

 

[Tenki]

What happens when a banana is thrown at iSDR?

 

[Camalange]

Did someone say you can DI Sonic's smashes like you can Diddy's? lolwhut?

We're all aware that like, SDI down totally negates Diddy's Fsmash and Usmash if done correctly right? Sonic's doesn't work that way >_>

Not that Sonic's will always be SDIing Diddy's Fsmash/Usmash...but they don't work at all like Sonics...


Also, Diddy does have a pretty strong aerial game, but I feel Sonic still beats Diddy in the air cuz he'll have an easier time juggling and shiz. Diddy definitley wins this matchup though, only slightly imo. Those nanners force Sonic to approach like crazy, and he sucks at that...SDR goes over nanners lol ^_^ But that doesn't help if they're being thrown at you >_>

Sonic also has a pretty easy time gimping Diddy. Sprriiiing.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Diddy's don't use Usmash to kill anyway, given that it doesn't actually kill until like 250%. Doesn't really matter. I don't see what SDI down will do against Diddy's Fsmash other than give you bad DI, lols. Even though it's easier to DI Diddy's Fsmash, good players will be able to DI both characters' kill moves with ease.

Pictochat shouldn't be banned, but it really wouldn't be a great counterpick IMO. It's not much different than SV other than the hazards, which don't really help or hurt either character.

and what ADHD said. Really, any counterpicks or bans aren't major. Diddy isn't going to completely demolish Sonic on a certain stage, and Sonic isn't going to completely demolish Diddy on a certain stage.

 

[Matador]

Diddy's don't use Usmash to kill anyway, given that it doesn't actually kill until like 250%. Doesn't really matter. I don't see what SDI down will do against Diddy's Fsmash other than give you bad DI, lols. Even though it's easier to DI Diddy's Fsmash, good players will be able to DI both characters' kill moves with ease.

Doesn't SDI get you OUT of Diddy's Fsmash before the second hit?

Leaving you like...vulnerable n ****?

 

[AvaricePanda]

Not SDIing down.

If you're really close to Diddy and he Fsmashes, you can SDI up and into him and bair or something. If you're at the tip of Diddy's Fsmash range, you can SDI away, but generally can't follow up with anything given the danger of the 2nd hit + you're just getting out of an attack. In general range, you can SDI out of Diddy's Fsmash if you have really good DI or you predict the hit, but you aren't going to be able to punish it safely or in time unless Diddy's like literally on top of you performing the hit.

I don't see what SDIing down is going to do except leave you vulnerable for the second hit and make your DI bad for the second hit.

 

[Camalange]

SDIing down against Diddy's Fsmash allows you to tech I'm pretty sure.

 

[Tenki]

We're all aware that like, SDI down totally negates Diddy's Fsmash and Usmash if done correctly right? Sonic's doesn't work that way >_>

I don't see what SDI down will do against Diddy's Fsmash other than give you bad DI, lols.

I think they're talking about the thing when you're getting hit by any multi hit move - SDI up on the first hit (or be in midair), then SDI down+tech the hit (second hit, if you're on the ground).

There was a vid of people teching Lucas's U-smash, but I can't be bothered to find it right now since, as awesome as that is, I'm not inclined to risk trying it myself lol.

But yeah, it has to be done correctly -

if your character is already on the ground, you can't SDI down - which is why you have to either be in the air or SDI up on the first hit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why SDI the second hit as well?
SDI the first hit then jump and Dair the monkey in the face
Why add that extra amount of damage?

 

[Jim Morrison]

What happens when a banana is thrown at iSDR?

Clank I think, giving you the banana to control.

 

[Chis]

So is Gf2tw still updating this thread?

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, the info should be in Camalange's thread because he now bears the CP/ban name.
I just thought it was only Stage discussion, but fair enough.

No, you can edit the first post into Cam's OP or something.

 

[Chis]

Fine. Cam now owns this thread.

 

[Camalange]

Whuuut whuuuuuut


This will be an extension of my stickied thread ^_^

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lolwtf, I didn't want you to steal my thread.
Chis and his silly mod powers.

 

[Camalange]

You said you didn't want to run it...?



?_?

 

[Chis]

So....

Can we move on from Diddy now?

 

[Camalange]

Just gone done updating the OP with Diddy info. Please read over and tell me if I missed anything.

Now...I plan on giving this thread as well as my stickied thread a pretty big revamp, then evenutally combining the two so...don't think it's just my laziness trying to get everything together O_o I apologize for any inconvenience.

now...

Let's move on to Mr. G&W shall we? He can be a difficult opponent so I'm interested in coming up with some bans and CPs for this guy.

EDIT: If anyone thinks there are higher priorities to discuss a different character rather than GaW, please speak up.

 

[JayBee]

i dont know, i think it may end up not being as long, but we should go over it anyway.

Did we do marth yet? that ******* needs to be discussed.

 

[Kuraudo]

Ban Battlefield against Marth. Or any stage with lots of platforms where you could be stuck above them and Marth using UAir or UTilt.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wow, it got unstickied.
So basically, I gave my thread away for no reason.
Good going Chis, you gave VSMS more to work with.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Gf, what are you even talking about?

 

[Jim Morrison]

My own thread was fused with Camalange's but Chis thought I didn't want my thread so he gave the OP of my thread to VSMS, so basically I just lost my one and only useful thread :'(

 

[Chis]

So is Gf2tw still updating this thread?

No, the info should be in Camalange's thread because he now bears the CP/ban name.
I just thought it was only Stage discussion, but fair enough.

No, you can edit the first post into Cam's OP or something.

lol what?

Anyways, yeah, Marth please.

 

[Camalange]

My other thread is still stickied.

Gf, if you would like to keep running this thread I'll ask Chis to give it back to you, but you didn't like the idea of combining my thread with yours...which would only be reasonable since having a stage discussion and a counterpick discussion as two seperate threads would be silly, since one is stickied, we could just put all the info in thar.

Alright, we'll discuss Marth since you fools still have trouble with him ;D

Someone said ban BF, but I'm totally biased and would say take any motha****ah there cuz that's how I roll, but I understand where he's coming from.....I guess.

 

[JayBee]

like, i dont even know. if you can pick a stage where you can manuver, and not get sent off the edge so easily, maybe. Im not sure about marth anymore. I still can't beat this marth player no matter what I do, and i try lots of stuff. LOTS. he so gay. i refuse to play him on any small stage.
i dont even know what stage lets you edgegaurd him, because his recovery is good enough to not get gimped consistantly until very high percents. I also seemed to see that upair games dont work really well on him. his fair has too much of an arc.

 

[Browny]

CP Frigate,
Because Frigate is my Sonic CP for everything

Ban Battlefield,
Because BattleField is marths CP for everything

??

 

[Camalange]

CP Frigate,
Because Frigate is my Sonic CP for everything

Ban Battlefield,

You are the Anti-Camalange.





Lylat seems like it might be a good stage for either character depending on who can get stage control. The edges might make it a little harder for Marth to recover, especially if you pressure offstage.

 

[Kuraudo]

like, i dont even know. if you can pick a stage where you can manuver, and not get sent off the edge so easily, maybe. Im not sure about marth anymore. I still can't beat this marth player no matter what I do, and i try lots of stuff. LOTS. he so gay. i refuse to play him on any small stage.
i dont even know what stage lets you edgegaurd him, because his recovery is good enough to not get gimped consistantly until very high percents. I also seemed to see that upair games dont work really well on him. his fair has too much of an arc.

And so you know my pain of just how gay the Marth match-up is. If there's ever a big tourney where everyone joins together, I gotta try and bring KillLock around, you need to give playing his Marth a try... I think I'm in the same boat as you are, where it's near impossible for me to beat this guy's Marth with Sonic (I can pull it off, it's just...so...stupid). He's too good. But he plays SO ridiculously gay. LOL

I personally like CP'ing Delfino sometimes for Sonic. Gay backthrow kills if they're stupid enough on the walk-offs, and a floor you can spring through if you wanted to. And the platforms are too high for any Marth Up Tilts to be stupid on you if you're above. Only thing you gotta worry about is the scary UAir Marth has on characters on platforms.

Any stage where you can spring through the floor, imo. Halberd and Delfino.

 

[JMan8891]

This is why i believe it to be his hardest matchup...

I'd ban BF. REALLY should. Marth isn't heavy and only KOs early with tippers. But his tools keep us from doing wat we do, as well as put us where you really shouldn't be: in the air...

Why?? Bair rocks, but is too slow. Marth can run on the ground at you. Your falling away? Spacing Bair?
a)He shields it, and Fairs or DBs you. Situation reset
B)You sling that Bair early, he Fairs you.... :/

You try to ASC around.... he'll Fair you...
Try to AirDodge around, you MAY get lucky and get through... but he can keep harassing with aierals, or FF and DB camp you. Putting you where you don't want to be.

Platforms give Martha stage control. FD. Since anyone but Diddy/D3 ban it, i'd say Delfino or castle siege. Smashville is a bit too small imo, and thats what i get CPd out here.

Ban BF, makes it way to uphill. Platforms hinder us and help him.
Cp FD, Castle, PS (My counterpick favorite, disrupts him well), or Delfino