7. Mr. Game & Watch- Sonic Counterpick/Ban discussion

[Umby]

I don't recommend Delfino. To try and bthrow a Marth off the walk-off, you'd have to either pivot grab or shield grab, which means the Marth wasn't spacing correctly. Trying to do either could result in FF Fair -> DB4 Red or Fsmash and YOU end up getting killed instead. There's also the possibility of getting water spiked. If you're dumb enough, there's also dtilt lock on the walls.

Halberd's a better choice. During the flight, you may have to land camp a little, since the platform baits you to Marth's utilt, but when you get on the Halberd's deck, you have plenty of room to move around. The area underneath the ledge can also help with spring gimping if the Marth panics on recovery.

I probably have to play the matchup again, but while BF is Marth's best stage, I don't ever recall Sonic having too many troubles vs him there (but that's probably just me being biased because a lot of you bitch at BF all the time in general). In any case, it's probably ban worthy if you don't feel like you have a better choice or the simple fact that you'd want to ban Marth's best stage for assurance.

Lylat Cruise is give and take. Both of you can easily screw up your recovery, and both of you get messed up by ftilt. The only factor that might put this in Sonic's favor is that you can juggle better. Hyphen Smash/DACUS is also a plus.

Frigate is pretty cool. Take command of the left side of the stage on the first transformation, and you're already at an advantage. On the second transformation, the dip in the middle allows you a bit more comfort. Marth's tilts start from low to high, so you may find yourself getting "under" his attacks more often when approaching from that slant.

Final D is probably going to be banned by the opponent, but if you get a chance, you know what the deal is.

Pokemon Stadium 1 might work. I have no backing for that argument, but it's there for consideration. Same for Rainbow Cruise.

My opinion:

Ban - Battlefield
CP - Final Destination, Halberd, MAYBE Frigate.

 

[JayBee]

the more i read the more it makes sence. Marth gets the bulk of his damage from sonic when he

1: edge gaurds him/ knocks sonic off stage and punishes him as he tries to come back

2: when ever sonic is above marth, whether on platforms, in the air, etc.

which is why dancing blade become gay when it pushes you towards the edge. that, and your need to get really close gives him multiple KO chances with UpB. Marth for S tier.

(actually this can be used alot more on other characters, but sonic's speed lets him punish, or bet right back in his face even after a clean hit unless at high percents)

you have to make marth as predictable as possible when you counter pick, or give your sonic as much advantage as you can to prevent getting pinned down by gay sword moves.


FD: if they are smart they will ban. the spacing it gives you prevents marth from really pinning you down, and if you are caught, lets you get away with enough space to reset the advantage on the floor. the edges help in gimping and are known to mess marth up if he gets spring gimped or altered when coming back from below, and tippers aren't as effective with the wide blast zones, and combined with sonic's Momentum Canceling allow him to live long enough to negate him killing sonic faster. Sonic can also be defensive here and spindash punishment is more viable. this can make marth more committed to an offensive strategy in an attempt to pin you down, which sonic should be able to punish better, because without platforms, marth's attack pattern become more linear and therefore more predictable. the long stage makes it not as likely to be caught between the edge and a marth baiting your options.

Lylat: platforms help marth, but the way its setup on this stage allows a better success at juggling with upthrow, because an upthrow will put him passed the platforms, meaning he will have to land on them, and since they are spread out the whole stage, Upsmash can be used more. lots of people hate this stage because they are afraid the stage will gimp them without you doing anything. Sonic's recovery shouldn't let this happen enough for the sonic to ban this stage, and strategically, if Marth bans it, now they cannot ban FD, usually. it also harder for marth to ledge camp for a long time because of the tilting field that can lead to dangerous SD's at random times. there fore you have a better chance to edgegaurd marth on this stage the usual. granted, he probably can kill you faster here, but the table is set for you run some nice damaging setups, with just enough room to manuver away.

At Rainbow Cruise, one of marths best tools, the ability to edgegaurd and rack damage from baiting return options is limited, and he is forced to chase you all over the place more. since the stage is moving, he cannot sit there and fair camp in a small area. there is more of an opportunity to gimp him since he will have to commit to long jumps at certain points, expending his limited recovery options. Sonic has more than enough room to laugh at thier camping, and camp them back by running around the stage with his superior recovery. there are also places to use isdr and the airdash, and you have a jab lock setup on the boat too, as well as airdash setups on the far left side of the boat, and when the boat begins to tilt and "sink". isdr is available due to the many pendulum swinging platforms and awkwark black and white platforms at the final part of the stage, which also gives both players a chance to kill early at the top (for you upthrow, and maybe utilt and upair) and at the left if you can pressure them well enough. this may be something we need to learn to play a unique style with sonic for as a trump card once people start banning Yoshi's Island (people are noticing in MD/VA at least)

Pokemon Stadium works in a way as well, it has similarites to Lylat in that the edges are very dangerous and can cause SD's when coming from below, and the platforms can be used the same way by both chracters, but wide enough so that the advantage isn't only marths. Sonic needs to be on the ground against him anyways, so the fact that they dont control the stage like BF means sonic can use it if he needs to and not because he has to. the stages transistions work well to break up the characters and give them both breathing room, since the norm is to wait out the majority of the transitions, in fear of giving up advantage. if the marth is smart he will be the least aggressive on these parts. the stage's bounderies are solid enough to allow momentum cancelling, but i dont see anything to prevent marth from edgegaurding the crap outta you, so you need to not be predicatable at all when coming back (lol goes for any stage really.) Lastly, the new structures can change the intended trajectories of opponents knocked there, but sonic's ground speed can still let him follow up wiht a decent move on the fly. this IMO is a pick you consider if you are really good at playing here, as Marth can technically still do okay here.

 

[Camalange]

From what I've read (thanks everyone for the detailed input) and from my own experience/opinion, I'm going to go with...

CP-
Final Destination, Lylat/Rainbow Cruise

Ban-
Battlefield, Delfino

I saw some good points about CPing Frigate and Halberd, but I figured FD, Lylat, and RC were the superior 3 choices, and any other stages you want to CP/Ban are player dependant.

For example, I will never ever ban BF against any character. But that may just be me.

Discuss?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

CP with BF and Ban Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Camalange]

CP with BF and Ban Rainbow Cruise.

That's probably what I would personally do because I'm cool like that.

 

[JayBee]

no terios you did wrong.

Cam i think its right for now.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

No. I did it right. Ban RC they'll think you play Snake or Oli or something and strike something stupid. Then when you beat them on BF it'll be such a blow to their feminine egos that they'll just quit on the spot. I'm a CP genius. Don't question me.

 

[Camalange]

If I could do it my own way, my CP/Ban list would be CP - Battlefield / Ban - Jungle Japes

However I can't do that so...Imma update the OP with my Marth list. I'll give it another day before we move on to the next character.

EDIT: Oh, so I'm starting to wonder now...

If FD is our best choice against Marth...why would RC be any good? FD is good because it's just flat and we can run around and **** up spacing. Wouldn't RC just let Marth aerially **** us?

Like i said, I just put your **** in the OP because I'm totally biased. get@me

 

[JMan8891]

If played right, RC can gimp marth's **** pretty bad...

And you HAVE to run from the ****...
?Keep in mind, we can pew-pew all day, and he'll HAVE to chase.
?Plus, a sprink to kill on the descending part is hillarious, xD

 

[Jim Morrison]

Are you gonna do write-ups, VSMS <_<?

 

[Camalange]

Are you gonna do write-ups, VSMS <_<?

yessir

I did for Diddy, haven't gotten around to Marth yet. Also giving him the rest of the week till we move on to the next character anyway.

Considering I just got back from the Marth boards posting my thought on the MU...uuugh

 

[Jim Morrison]

I posted there too. Also, just pick FD against him, Rainbow Cruise is a dumb choice because you gain nothing. Other stages are really neutral. Maybe Lylat Cruise is lol.

 

[Boxob.]

I'll do a marth write up, but no one will agree with me because I think marth sucks, especially against sonic.

 

[Jim Morrison]

<_< These aren't really MU write-ups, just small general pieces of info. I think OP if fine handling it on it's own AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T PUT THINGS AHEAD ALL THE TIME.

 

[Kinzer]

*Nudge nudge*

...Wonder if after a 2 week-long absence I still have that annoying talent to make WoPs that are TL/DR for anybody to take a good look at.

We are on Martha Stewart, right? Am I doing it right? Anyway-

Battlefield is probably the worst neutral to take Marth too, too much platform control and mobility to outmatch your speed (WTF?!) and your lesser mobility. I like FD but of course everybody and their mother bans that so we have to go with SV.

That's just the 3 standard starter stages, what about other CPs that can make this MU better, afterall Martha is quite b****y, but Sonic gets the shorter end of the stick (probably not the shortest but it's d***-close to it). Then again, aren't all pop-star singers like that? (no, I am not referring to Kirby when I say Pop-Star.)

I love big maps, be it ones that give you room or are more maze-like, as long as it's big I don't think it matters much, it just can't be Battlefield where all the room is enclosed almost next to each other. Now if New Pork City were a selectable CP...

Alas, it's not, and of course you gotta improvise, so out of what most people agree to for selectable stages, IMO we go to...

Actually, I look at the stage list, and it just seems like personal preference/adapting to your opponents' playstyle/s. It's just Battlefield that I would avoid, but how many times have I said this already?

 

[Boxob.]

BF isn't even THAT good for marth against sonic.

If he does any attack, and lands on a platform, you can uair/fair him. Additionally, you can get under him a lot more.

Marth sucks against sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

"Marth sucks against Sonic"

Lolwut?

I read your entire post, and nothing got me more baffled than that.

I will just learn to coup with the rest of your post though, since I couldn't really find a way to argue it even if I tried, but perhaps somebody else can do that.

All hail Boxob and Haunter and his mindgames, yesh?

 

[Boxob.]

I've been saying marth sucks against sonic since forever.

He really does. Only really good marth players can keep a good sonic from winning, and still, it's definitely an uphill battle for them.

I'm DEFINITELY giving my opinion again, in the morning.

 

[JayBee]

boxob you are a liar. just to let you know

 

[Boxob.]

Nah.

I'm going to ECRC4. I swear, I'll beat EVERY marth player there. For money, or not. I don't care.

I don't lose to marth.

 

[Exceladon City]

I love big maps, be it ones that give you room or are more maze-like, as long as it's big I don't think it matters much, it just can't be Battlefield where all the room is enclosed almost next to each other. Now if New Pork City were a selectable CP...

Alas, it's not, and of course you gotta improvise, so out of what most people agree to for selectable stages, IMO we go to...

Actually, I look at the stage list, and it just seems like personal preference/adapting to your opponents' playstyle/s. It's just Battlefield that I would avoid, but how many times have I said this already?

^This. Take Marf to Norfair if it isn't banned. Sonic at Norfair is OMGWTF there. It's like playing a platformer, which is something Sonic is good at and Marth is not a platformer character. So you basically win by terrain advantage.

 

[Camalange]

People need to stop hating on BF. It's definitley the greatest stage ever designed.


And I'm definitley convinced that a lot of you don't know how to play against Marth. Not sure if I agree with Boxob on the difficulty...but it's not close to being Sonic's worst MU when you have characters like ROB, G&W, T.Link, etc out there.

/matchupdiscussion

I'll probably update this sometime over the weekend.

 

[Exceladon City]

People need to stop hating on BF. It's definitley the greatest stage ever designed.


And I'm definitley convinced that a lot of you don't know how to play against Marth. Not sure if I agree with Boxob on the difficulty...but it's not close to being Sonic's worst MU when you have characters like ROB, G&W, T.Link, etc out there.

/matchupdiscussion

I'll probably update this sometime over the weekend.

Probably the most obnoxious character to go against with Sonic. You're gonna hide in your shield for days on end waiting for the projectile **** to stop and then when you think you can attack, you'll die because of the 5th player boomerang hit you and caused you to get zair -> usmashed.

 

[Camalange]

Probably the most obnoxious character to go against with Sonic. You're gonna hide in your shield for days on end waiting for the projectile **** to stop and then when you think you can attack, you'll die because of the 5th player boomerang hit you and caused you to get zair -> usmashed.

yeeeeesssssssss

I didn't even know wtf to do OoS, lol. Tink just barrages you so **** fast with everything...I heard his weakest point though is when he tries to zair. You PS the zair then attack OoS...

Too bad I learned this after Jash 2-stocked me >:/

Bad-Mediocre Tinks are easy as cake. Good Tinks are meh, Jash is zomgwtfbbqhax

Tinks just keep throwing **** at your shield and then somehow can immediatley like SH Nair in your face once you drop shield.

xD

 

[Boxob.]

TL, ROB, G&W by default are all WAY harder than marth.

Marth just blows, He doesn't have projectiles, he doesn't have THAT amazing range. His hair campy isn't good against sonic, Uair blows right through it.And when you're under marth, he sucks. And since Uair puts you under the opponent. Marth = sucks. His ground game is atrocious. Every attack on the ground can be punished by a grab, dash attack, Short hopped fair. If you're standing in the middle of his range for a Fsmash, and he goes for it, you can actually completely dodge it BY RUNNING AWAY FROM IT. Just hold left or right, you're not getting hit,In fact. if you can bait this. You can run away, dash pivot, a grab/dash attack. I did it once, it's possible.

Marth is barely a decent weight. Bair kills at 130 if it was used once or twice (Which for me, is likely) on FD, BF, frigate, yada.

Marth shouldn't be landing kill moves on you, if he is, you're doing something wrong. You have a shield, use it. He won't be killing you out of a grab so don't even worry about his grabs. Unless you get air released, but that's pretty easy to avoid.

I had a longer, actual write up style thing, but my comp like ****ed itself so now I don't.

 

[Camalange]

I still like your post even if it's not a complete write-up.


That's my mindset. I can't possibly fathom how Marth could even be considered a worst MU for all of the reasons you stated. gg

 

[Boxob.]

Yeah. I kinda just tried to re-post the most important aspects.

If marth had lazers, longs lasting hitboxes, a better recovery, was heavier, was named Meta Knight. Maybe he'd be a bad matchup for Sonic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

TL, ROB, G&W by default are all WAY harder than marth.

Marth just blows, He doesn't have projectiles, he doesn't have THAT amazing range. His hair campy isn't good against sonic, Uair blows right through it.And when you're under marth, he sucks. And since Uair puts you under the opponent. Marth = sucks. His ground game is atrocious. Every attack on the ground can be punished by a grab, dash attack, Short hopped fair. If you're standing in the middle of his range for a Fsmash, and he goes for it, you can actually completely dodge it BY RUNNING AWAY FROM IT. Just hold left or right, you're not getting hit,In fact. if you can bait this. You can run away, dash pivot, a grab/dash attack. I did it once, it's possible.

Marth is barely a decent weight. Bair kills at 130 if it was used once or twice (Which for me, is likely) on FD, BF, frigate, yada.

Marth shouldn't be landing kill moves on you, if he is, you're doing something wrong. You have a shield, use it. He won't be killing you out of a grab so don't even worry about his grabs. Unless you get air released, but that's pretty easy to avoid.

I had a longer, actual write up style thing, but my comp like ****ed itself so now I don't.

A Sonic main with the audacity to say this about another character?

This is the stuff that makes SWF worth lurking.

Classic.

BTW you shouldn't speak in absolutes about move properties and the like. All one would have to do to make you look foolish is bring up one example to prove you wrong.

You said Sonic can punish anything Marth does on the ground.

Incorrect. You are not punishing tipper d-tilts or tipper jabs.

GG.

 

[aeghrur]

UH OH, EL COMING IN HERE WITH THE DTILT.
Sonic mains, RUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNN.

 

[Umby]

Minna, mittete kure!

Hi, EL. Nice of you to lurk with us.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are mistaken.

I have no intention of posting further.

Just felt like being a massive *******.

Good day to you all.

 

[infomon]

^^ wait, we allow women in here?

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

snip

I'm not sure how you feel about discussing this, but I'll ask anyways. Do you feel that your character is our main's worst matchup?

 

[Emblem Lord]

WHAT?!?!?!

HELL NO!!!!!

There is this guy. Who plays like Marth but hes like only a foot tall and he has wings.

Yeah that guy is your worst ****ing nightmare.

Him and that one guy with the bucket and he's all 2-d and stuff.

Those guys slap Sonic around like he owes them money.

 

[Browny]

the same type of money that OS owed shugo?
mmmm

I still think Lucario is the worst lol.

 

[Kuraudo]

I should have faced Rayku's Lucario at Genesis. But I decided to P.Trainer Ditto him instead. It was too fun. LOL

Meta Knight isn't bad at all for me. I took Dojo to the last stock with Sonic at decent percent.

 

[Kinzer]

Shouldn't Dojo have been conditioned by Espy?

If that holds true, then that's just further proof that anybody who says MK is a (real) bad Sonic MU needs to get that garbage outta here.

...I still have trouble with the local MK though, but I need to fight him one more time, I think I'm finally ready to stop getting my butt three-stocked.

 

[Kuraudo]

I don't get 3-stocked by Meta Knight anymore. MK isn't a bad match-up, at ALL.

I say 60:40 still when playing epic Meta Knights. But it's SLOWLY starting to look like 55:45 as time rolls on and the metagame evolves... Wow Sonic's moving up.

 

[Exceladon City]

I do pretty decently against MK. I'm not close to putting one in Losers just yet but I'm working on it. GW isn't that big of an issue either. Olimar and Lucy are quite honestly the hardest. You have one that has a fortress of 4 centimeter plant dudes that you can't quite touch unless you're equipped with a laser, a fast sword or happened to be named Luigi and one that gets stronger the more you hit him. Yeah...pretty gay.

 

[Camalange]

MK's a bad MU, but it's no way a nightmare...not at all.

GaW/Tink/ROB are the top 3 gays and I'm stickin' to it.




Not Marth.