Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Jeos]

the 10th move has it's power completely back.

well, I've always known that the queue has 10 slots but w/e you lose some power until you do 9 different attacks.

also, what kind of advice can you give me when fighting olimar?

 

[C.J.]

Go watch brood vs Ramin.

Do the opposite of every kind of aerial that he did and jump less.

 

[PEACE7]

Spaced nairs, retreating fairs, jab and dtilt are really good at the mu. If you get grabbed at 0 your eating about 20+ damage against a good olimar.

 

[Kuro~]

If you get grabbed at 0 there is LITTLE reason he should even be able to throw you...
Oli's grabs are terrible until like....30% AT LEAST. Depends on how good of a masher you are. But at 0 there is no reason to not break out b4 the pikmin even retracts =/

 

[Mr-R]

Go watch brood vs Ramin.

Do the opposite of every kind of aerial that he did and jump less.

lmaooooo hahaha

 

[C.J.]

I love you Ramin, but go count the number of times you advancing rising fair'd into Brood's shield and got usmashed for it.

 

[Mr-R]

I know, even though I lost vs nietono I played a bit better vs him

 

[Orion*]

lmaooooo hahaha

get ***** homie

 

[C.J.]

I know, even though I lost vs nietono I played a bit better vs him

Agreed 100%

If you played like you did vs Nietono against Brood, you would have won imo.

 

[light-zion]

Q: how do you stutter step with marth????????

(it looks like half of marths dash thing) <---- hopes that made since lol

 

[billiam]

I am new to competitive brawl so these questions will probably sound noobish...

How do I stop people from rolling behind me?
I keep getting hit by kirby's down b and toon link's dair, how should I avoid that?
What is a good way for me to practice spacing?
How often should I shield/roll/dodge?

 

[VibeSlyph]

I am new to competitive brawl so these questions will probably sound noobish...

How do I stop people from rolling behind me?
I keep getting hit by kirby's down b and toon link's dair, how should I avoid that?
What is a good way for me to practice spacing?
How often should I shield/roll/dodge?

A) Read the rolls, Just Dancingblade behind you or something.

B) Hold Shield.

C) Playing the game more/ I guess training mode works.

D) Shield everything you can. Dodge only when someone is right next to you, facing you, cause they might grab. Don't roll very often. I personally never roll.

Also, I'm not sure if you know, but you can jump out of shield, meaning you can like jump and bair or fair out of shield for punishing.

 

[billiam]

Thanks, that actually helps a lot!

 

[Kel]

Has there been an updated footstool to Dair guide since 2008?

 

[Kel]

Also, is there a list/ guide to the characters whom Marth can safely ff a spaced fair into their shield and land? that'd be useful.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Don't try to ff fair Snake, as his uber tilts can hit you if you spacing is even a smidgen off, or DDD for the same reasons except it's his huge grab hitbox we're worried about. Also, Diddy holding a banana can throw it OoS no matter what you do if you aerial his shield, and a few others you want to be careful near. But generally, if any character has the range for punishing you, just be careful and don't fail your spacing and you're safe.

 

[Kuro~]

No, i don't believe there is.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's ff untippered fair is as safe as -3, tippered is as safe as -7.

Most grabs are 6,
Shield drops are 7.

And I thought I had replied to your question earlier Kel but seemed I didn't.
What's there really to update in the 'footstool to dair'? Footstooling in itself is a great tool, more so defensively than as offensively though. Footstool dair requires the opponent to not be in any action, and that you go right ontop of them press jump and input a dair. It's too much to be reliable, tbh. You can obviously footstool + dair even if they aren't in an action, but I would rarely see it work out as the little 'mini drop' that people have after being footstooled is what generally gives you the tipper on dair.

 

[Roxas M]

Wow, I assumed it was the other way around, regarding shield safety. lol
So it's actually safer to untipper ff fair than tippered ff fair? I would think that tippered would be safer because of the extra range you'd need to get the tipper on the shield.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

I'd imagine that the extra range of tipper fair is more important than the frame data in this situation, though. Marth has a huge range, but getting closer to hit with an untipperred fair will put you within range of attacks of characters with less than stellar range, and you are more likely to get hit. But having such a low lag untippered fair is what allows us to do things like ff fair > DS to punish a shield grab.

 

[C.J.]

Marth's ff untippered fair is as safe as -3, tippered is as safe as -7.

Huh, I thought it was -4/-7. Good to know though.

To add onto this though, it's only -3/-7 is you're frame perfect on when you land with the fair/you hit the shield at a certain time. If you hit the shield at the very top, since you have farther to go, obviously it won't be optimally safe.

As for how FF fair applies to Snake, since you have to be so careful with when you fair, it's better to retreating nair (slow fall) to safety if you just want to get to the ground.

Wow, I assumed it was the other way around, regarding shield safety. lol
So it's actually safer to untipper ff fair than tippered ff fair? I would think that tippered would be safer because of the extra range you'd need to get the tipper on the shield.

Depends on the situation/character. Vs characters like MK, you want the space/safety. Vs someone like, say, Olimar, you might want the better frame data because his grab speed is so bad/no grab armor.

 

[Lord Chair]

Non-tipper fairs can be spaced to be not shieldgrabbable. For optimal pressure there's no reason to take even greater safety measures by tippering.

I daresay that tippering gives your opponent more breathing room since you're putting him at too much a distance to continue your pressure.

 

[C.J.]

For the most part, I agree. But vs characters like MK (SL invincibility through fair's hitbox so the extra distance might help you avoid the attack) or Bowser (same thing with his upB/ftilt is super long) I'd personally rather have the space.

 

[SSGuy]

=-----------------------=

 

[Brawlman1000]

Could some1 give me the run down on the Falco MU plz?

 

[ScareMl]

1) don't jump too much, he'll shdl and shdl>bdacus
2) we can DS out of his cg unless the falco buffers it perfectly, so just remember that's always an option.
3) we have some good grab combos from 0%.
a) fthrow>fthrow>dair when he's near the ledge for a 0 to death combo.
b) fthrow>f-smash 24% fresh
c) fthrow>fthrow>f-smash 27% fresh
d) fthrow>fthrow>dthrow>dthrow>dthrow>f-smash for 41% when fresh
e) there's other variations but those are the main ones
4) ^that's if you chance upon the grab, don't go for the grab and only the grab. you will rack up too much damage and lose your rhythm if all you're doing is trying to grab him. If he's good at not getting grabbed, stop trying for it. Resort to the normal play.
5) retreating fair is good for spacing and stuff.
6) retreating nair is your friend, use it.
7) idk about ff fair and uair, can someone confirm or deconfirm this?
8) dancing blade to punish phantasms and other stuff
9) to stop his phantasm recovery onto stage, you have a couple options ( you need to practice timing for these)
a) jab>dancing blade, f-smash, etc.
b) predict where's he gonna land, and dash u-smash there
c) the one mikehaze does where he drops off the ledge and second jumps back on while nair-ing or fair-ing.
10) if he falls beneath the stage and has to use up-b, ledgehog/gimp him, make sure he doesn't get back up
11) learn to powershield lasers, or your life is gonna be miserable.
12) if he's spamming jab on you, SDI out of it.
13) walk>dash

hope that was helpful

 

[Brawlman1000]

Thanks a bunch man! That was beyond helpful. What about stages tho? Where should and shouldn't I go against him?

 

[ScareMl]

Thanks a bunch man! That was beyond helpful. What about stages tho? Where should and shouldn't I go against him?

um...that's mostly up to preference i guess, im not a stage expert haha. i wouldn't take him to final destination though, battlefield is probably our advantage, and i take falcos to smashville cuz i know that stage the best. actually, this is just from my experience, i do well against falco on delfino--like, the falco messes up...a LOT on delfino, but that's just from my matches. sorry, that's all i know as far as stages are concerned

 

[Brawlman1000]

Thanks. Just giving me an idea of what stage to go to helps, I can figure out the rest for myself. I intended to use those stages anyway, just wanted a 2nd opinion from some1 who knows the character better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Halberd might help in the slope parts, just be careful with his Upsmash, it will kill early on the flat part.
Delfino is good, you have room to move.
YI:B has some mixed results, you can try and see how it works for you. Same with Lylat.
The best option may be Orpheon, still, is all depending on how much you're good at the stage.

 

[Kel]

What's there really to update in the 'footstool to dair'? Footstooling in itself is a great tool, more so defensively than as offensively though. Footstool dair requires the opponent to not be in any action, and that you go right ontop of them press jump and input a dair. It's too much to be reliable, tbh. You can obviously footstool + dair even if they aren't in an action, but I would rarely see it work out as the little 'mini drop' that people have after being footstooled is what generally gives you the tipper on dair.

haha, Shaya I know what footstooling is. I'm not that bad of a player. I'm rather decent in my region (MW).

What I was talking about is the DIRECTION that Marth has to be facing/ timing in order to get the footstool dair. Back when I played Marth in 2008 there was a list about how to footstool to dair characters and it turned out that each character has its own special way you have to do it. Some have to be facing forward while others do not.

This may have all been completely debunked and whatnot, but I have a LOT of catching up to do since 2008 with my Marth. That's why I was asking about fair spacings, since they're the bread and butter of Marth.

Thanks for your replies.

As for how FF fair applies to Snake, since you have to be so careful with when you fair, it's better to retreating nair (slow fall) to safety if you just want to get to the ground.

Thanks CJ. You're Chaz from Florida, right? At any rate, I don't know how Snake got brought up, but I'm looking for general ideas of what my options are vs each character. I need to know what I can do and what my opponent can do so that I can mix it up and mind game people.

Snake seems like a difficult MU for people just starting out Marth since spacing is so tight, but I'm not really sure what my/ his options are and when I should be dedicating to a fair.

I really appreciate all the help guys. Since MK got banned I'm really going to be putting in a lot of effort with Marth. I've got a lot of catching up to do, so bare with me.

 

[C.J.]

Thanks CJ. You're Chaz from Florida, right? At any rate, I don't know how Snake got brought up, but I'm looking for general ideas of what my options are vs each character. I need to know what I can do and what my opponent can do so that I can mix it up and mind game people.

Snake seems like a difficult MU for people just starting out Marth since spacing is so tight, but I'm not really sure what my/ his options are and when I should be dedicating to a fair.

I really appreciate all the help guys. Since MK got banned I'm really going to be putting in a lot of effort with Marth. I've got a lot of catching up to do, so bare with me.

Nope, I'm C.J. Chaz is from south Fl; I'm in central FL (kinda). I'm pretty inactive honestly.

Snake got brought up as Masterofgalaxies mentioned it.

As for Snake things specifically, this will have pretty much EVERYTHING you'll want to know about the MU:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314417

 

[ChocoNaner]

I. Hate. Snake. So. Much. :I

The MU is incredibly gay when you first play it because you have no clue what to do besides trying to space Fairs, Bairs, and Nair to shield poke w/o hitting the nade and getting him in the air I:

I played a pro snake on weefee a week or so ago and was able to barely pull off a win first game with a clutch Uair iirc, only to get bodied the next 4-6 games, made me ;[

so sad ichu:

 

[Ken Neth]

That's what you get for playing snake on wifi- tilt *****.

 

[Shaya]

I know who you are kel, and I know you aren't bad, and you're in the BBR too

You know more about footstool dair than I do (), why waste time footstooling when you can just dair (yes there is an answer here [i.e. you want to jump])?
I think the general 'lack of opportunities' is what killed anyone really researching it further.

 

[ChocoNaner]

That's what you get for playing snake on wifi- tilt *****.

ctrl + f "tilt" and no results were found on my post :I

derp ichu:

 

[Kel]

I know who you are kel, and I know you aren't bad, and you're in the BBR too

You know more about footstool dair than I do (), why waste time footstooling when you can just dair (yes there is an answer here [i.e. you want to jump])?
I think the general 'lack of opportunities' is what killed anyone really researching it further.

Right. Everyone here understands the need for marth to jump in order to get a dair spike, and Roy R used to do it to people, but he's the only person I ever really saw use it. I'm just researching to figure out my options so that I can eventually learn and innovate my own stuff.

CJ, I read your character MU threads. They were incredibly helpful. Thank you. However, there are still intangibles that I'm trying to understand.

You mention that you're always supposed to rising fair full-hoped and then nair to space out a landing/ save the double jump to go over snake's dash attack. But this weekend I played Infern Angelis in a best of one match at an anime convention and things weren't as smooth as I had hoped.

I studied MikeHaze's videos. Particularly vs Ally and Havok (since Havok's snake has more experience vs mike he would show me more habits/ better punishes that Ally didn't even show) and I tried my best to emulate what he was doing, but it just didn't work out.

I'm trying to figure out when I'm supposed to go in for the strike. It was difficult for me to get the kill, despite taking a huge lead early in the game and things just got more and more difficult from there. Mike seems to wait for something particular, but I'm not quite sure what yet. If anyone has any suggestions I'm very open to hear it.

Another MU that seems like I should know is Olimar. Marth is supposed to beat Oli, but it seems like such a messy match up for Marth. I've been watching various videos of Marths fighting Olimars and they always seem to go in for a FF fair on the Oli's shield into a 50/50 mix up of "is he going to Usmash me or grab me out of this?" That doesn't seem very reliable for a MU that Marth is supposed to win.

Overall, I'm just trying to figure out the ins and outs of Marth's fair since it's the most important. Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated and will be heeded.

 

[C.J.]

Right. Everyone here understands the need for marth to jump in order to get a dair spike, and Roy R used to do it to people, but he's the only person I ever really saw use it. I'm just researching to figure out my options so that I can eventually learn and innovate my own stuff.

CJ, I read your character MU threads. They were incredibly helpful. Thank you. However, there are still intangibles that I'm trying to understand.

You mention that you're always supposed to rising fair full-hoped and then nair to space out a landing/ save the double jump to go over snake's dash attack. But this weekend I played Infern Angelis in a best of one match at an anime convention and things weren't as smooth as I had hoped.

I studied MikeHaze's videos. Particularly vs Ally and Havok (since Havok's snake has more experience vs mike he would show me more habits/ better punishes that Ally didn't even show) and I tried my best to emulate what he was doing, but it just didn't work out.

I'm trying to figure out when I'm supposed to go in for the strike. It was difficult for me to get the kill, despite taking a huge lead early in the game and things just got more and more difficult from there. Mike seems to wait for something particular, but I'm not quite sure what yet. If anyone has any suggestions I'm very open to hear it.

Another MU that seems like I should know is Olimar. Marth is supposed to beat Oli, but it seems like such a messy match up for Marth. I've been watching various videos of Marths fighting Olimars and they always seem to go in for a FF fair on the Oli's shield into a 50/50 mix up of "is he going to Usmash me or grab me out of this?" That doesn't seem very reliable for a MU that Marth is supposed to win.

Overall, I'm just trying to figure out the ins and outs of Marth's fair since it's the most important. Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated and will be heeded.

For when you take a huge lead, don't worry about the kill. Everything Snake has is super unsafe, and his camping can't really hurt you unless he approaches along with it/you approach him through it. Wait for him to mess up and the kill will come. You have to be more patient waiting for kills with Marth than most other characters.

Whenever Mike is waiting, it tends to be for a grab. Mike loves grabbing and follows up on them fairly well.

Things that open up possibilities overall- dtilt. Dtilt is an amazing move. FF uair is awesome too (just don't get utilted for it).
As for Olimar, blah. First of all, it's probably an even MU...

Fair, untippered on shield (AS landing ofc), is -3/-4 or around there. Olimar's grab is 12 frames. If he tries to grab, jab, DS, dtilt, etc will ALWAYS beat it out. Usmash is frame 8 iirc. So if he tries to usmash, jab/DB will beat it/clash with it. However, if you hit shield with jab, it's very unsafe (-20 iirc) so that's no always a good option unless you're confident.

Rising fair on shield is like... -25 on shield. So, rising fair into Olimar will get you usmashed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sM7bYWQHjA). What you want to do there is rising fair, and hit confirm super quickly. If you connect, go forward and carry momentum. If you hit shield retreat and avoid the grab (if he doesn't usmash on reflex) or just reset to neutral (if he does usmash on reaction since he obviously can't grab you now).

Now, if you're falling and you're poorly spaced for fair and don't want to mess with jab mixups on landing, land behind him with FF uair if you can. It's -4/-7 (untippered/tippered) on shield so you can always shield before the usmash, and unless he's frame perfect you can spotdodge/roll away before the usmash comes out. Grabbing isn't a factor since you're behind him so he'd have to drop shield (7), turn around (1 or 2), and then use his slow grab to get you (12). Bair OoS is slower than usmash, so w/e.

If you're worried about him usmashing while you're falling, nair beats usmash. Pikmin clank with... everything. So, you fall, he's usmashes, he nairs. First hit of nair clashes with the pikmin, second hit of nair hits him.

Idk, random thoughts.

Post videos

 

[Lord Chair]

while the uair crossup thing is true in theory, itll be hard to realize in practice

good olimars wont allow you to crossup like that

edit: ff fairs on his shields are only safe if theyre spaced outside of his usmash range, thats a core thing of the MU and no thats not easy to consistently pull off, the MU is technically very tight

 

[C.J.]

while the uair crossup thing is true in theory, itll be hard to realize in practice

good olimars wont allow you to crossup like that

edit: ff fairs on his shields are only safe if theyre spaced outside of his usmash range, thats a core thing of the MU and no thats not easy to consistently pull off, the MU is technically very tight

For the cross-up thing, I mean it more as a landing option if you're being juggled. Not just to try to cross them up. That was my fault for being vague.

Technically, if done perfectly, even if you're right on top of him they're still safe. But, you're right that practically since that won't happen you do need to be spaced better. And yes, the MU is very difficult.


Oh, rising retreating fair into their shield over and over again will net you free grabs for SH FF grab at times. Such a good mix-up.