Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[NH Cody]

shaya how do you have so many posts...omg...

 

[Shaya]

I've been around the block.

IMO they should change post count

Replace post count with "Word count"

Then annoying *****es with 18k posts would have like 19k words and i'd be there with 5.7 billion words.

 

[NH Cody]

ha.

I feel that on smashboards in particular it's hard to post that much, and the threads I post in aren't even that active

 

[Beninator]

Question I have:

Once, while playing on Smashville with my sister, I Dolphin Slashed back to the ledge, and Marth kind of slid along the ledge with the movement of the slash. Upon reaching the height of his slash, Marth was in perfect position to grab the ledge. However, for some odd reason, Marth instead bounced off of it, the end of the move was canceled, Marth did an Fair, and I haven't the slightest idea why. This was pretty useful, as it screwed up my sister's attempt at keeping me off the stage, but is there any way to control this? How did I initiate this?

 

[reslived]

There's a very specific spot on all ledges that cancel recovery moves and make you do it again. I think that is what you mean.

watch wolf here to see what i mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuKOKew1EXo#t=00m51s

 

[C.J.]

Yeah, it's called lightstepping or telestepping or something. Just search dolphin slash cancel. KillLock is consistent at it (kinda). And with Marth, you can't really do it consistently without using a very obvious set-up.

 

[PEACE7]

Question I have:

Once, while playing on Smashville with my sister, I Dolphin Slashed back to the ledge, and Marth kind of slid along the ledge with the movement of the slash. Upon reaching the height of his slash, Marth was in perfect position to grab the ledge. However, for some odd reason, Marth instead bounced off of it, the end of the move was canceled, Marth did an Fair, and I haven't the slightest idea why. This was pretty useful, as it screwed up my sister's attempt at keeping me off the stage, but is there any way to control this? How did I initiate this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9yCypxjIso

 

[Sar]

Here's the thing, the DS hitbox in that instance goes up and through the stage, and as you can see, almost hits as high as the fair hitbox does. So I guess the real advantage isn't so much the range of the hit but the fact that you end up back on the stage?

 

[reslived]

so what is the input to do what KillLock does? That looks impressive.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

What are the basic uses for each F-Air mixup (Fast Fall, Double in one SH, FH F-Air, etc)?

 

[light-zion]

Does anyone know how exactly to SDI or DI (not sure which one it is, could be both) Snakes ftilt and either get away from it or end up behind him? I saw Mikeneko do it a few times..

 

[Foodies]

So many questions not answered so here's my maybe not-as-good explanations. Other people feel free to correct/fill in.

Here's the thing, the DS hitbox in that instance goes up and through the stage, and as you can see, almost hits as high as the fair hitbox does. So I guess the real advantage isn't so much the range of the hit but the fact that you end up back on the stage?

The advantage is the DS is canceled and you can do whatever you want out of it (Ex: fair) instead of ending up on the ledge like normal. It gives you a more versatile way to recover, except for the fact that you don't expect it to happen - when it does you usually end up not doing anything out of it and falling back onto the ledge anyway. If you are setting it up as KillLock does, there will be a higher chance for you do to it successfully, but at the same time it will become more obvious what you are going for.

so what is the input to do what KillLock does? That looks impressive.

He should probably answer this himself, but from what I know: SideB away from the ledge, wait, then DS and fair right after. The difficult part is timing the wait/putting yourself in the position where the DS will cancel.

What are the basic uses for each F-Air mixup (Fast Fall, Double in one SH, FH F-Air, etc)?

I think this is too complicated for me to answer adequately (because there's even more classification of the ones you listed). But fastfalling is used so you land ...faster and can do other actions so you don't leave yourself as open. The second fair in a SH is generally used to cover a retreat - approaching double fair is usually unsafe. Full hopping is usually used when your opponent doesn't have a good fair...and when you don't want to get grabbed by ICs. Eh...there's a lot more to all of them. Why did I even try to answer this question xD

Does anyone know how exactly to SDI or DI (not sure which one it is, could be both) Snakes ftilt and either get away from it or end up behind him? I saw Mikeneko do it a few times..

From my experience, you need to pre-emptively SDI for it to work. Also, it depends on where you are when he starts the ftilt. If you are right next to him, just SDI into him to get through; If you are far away, SDI away. I'm not sure if there is a spacing where it's impossible to SDI to avoid the 2nd hit or not. As for inputs (assuming you are to the left of Snake + are DIing away), :stick1: + stick7: (hold one and tap the other, I don't think it matters which one but I could be wrong). Do the opposite if you are to the left of him + DIng through him, etc .

 

[light-zion]

Thanks a lot Foodies. The help is appreciated. :D

 

[eviljar626]

anyone have a list of which characters need which specific fthrow, fsmash tipper variation? much appreciated

 

[Musketeer04]

Can we get invincibility frames on our up-b with tap jump off? I've heard you only get invincibility with tap jump on.

 

[Reizilla]

The properties of Up-B don't change, so yes, you still get invincibility frames. However, it may be harder to get it frame perfect/buffered unless you're clawing. This would result in Marth jumping before performing the move. You would be vulnerable during the jump, rather than going straight from shield to Up-B.

 

[SSS]

The properties of Up-B don't change, so yes, you still get invincibility frames. However, it may be harder to get it frame perfect/buffered unless you're clawing. This would result in Marth jumping before performing the move. You would be vulnerable during the jump, rather than going straight from shield to Up-B.

I dunno, I changed my Z to jump (since I use Y to grab) for a lot of Marth stuff, and that helps a lot. Personally I can't stand tap jump.

anyone have a list of which characters need which specific fthrow, fsmash tipper variation? much appreciated

I suppose you could try going into training mode with every character. It wouldn't be entirely accurate, since they don't DI, but it might give a feel. I know characters like Bowser and DK and whatnot require a second grab, since they're so heavy they don't make it to the tip. I'm not sure if characters like Jigglypuff or Kirbstomp can get hit by it, they might be too light. Also, I think some characters require down throw, but I might be crazy.

 

[ぱみゅ]

iirc, there are some characters that need to be Dthrew in order to Dsmash them better... I honestly don't know nor can test as I don't have a Brawl copy

 

[SSS]

iirc, there are some characters that need to be Dthrew in order to Dsmash them better... I honestly don't know nor can test as I don't have a Brawl copy

You mean Fsmash?

 

[ぱみゅ]

lolyeah, sorry bout that input error

 

[SSS]

lolyeah, sorry bout that input error

That's okay. Why don't you have Brawl? That's the saddest. I would probably die.

Off-topic. I have been wanting a list of the Fthrow/Dthrow to Fsmash for awhile. I might just say screw it and do it in training mode to get a feel for it.

Now.

How do you force an air release?

 

[reslived]

there IS a marth combo thread where most of those throw -> smash combos are listed...

Edit link: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/234060/

 

[sh0rtlilr3tard]

My friends and I are looking to get into Brawl for the first time (yeah, super late right?) and we've all played a few games here and there in the past but we don't know anything really. What's the best things to practice in training mode, and are there specific things we should practice before playing vs each other a lot? Mainly worried about all of us developing bad habits since we're all bad.

 

[SSS]

W

My friends and I are looking to get into Brawl for the first time (yeah, super late right?) and we've all played a few games here and there in the past but we don't know anything really. What's the best things to practice in training mode, and are there specific things we should practice before playing vs each other a lot? Mainly worried about all of us developing bad habits since we're all bad.

Wow. There is so much to say about this game. I got into it late, too (only a year ago or so), but don't worry. I would say practice each other more than in training. Make sure to punish the crap out of each other. If one of your friends is doing something wrong, let him know. Tell him, "That isn't working and I have punished you for it every time." Make sure to punish each other.

As for in training mode, MOVESET. Make sure you know your character's moves. There are, basically, 5 different types of moves. Sorry if you know all this already.

TILTS (A + tilted analog stick in a direction)
Up-Tilt
Forward-Tilt
Down-Tilt

SMASHES (A + "smashed" analog stick in a direction [or c-stick in a direction])
Up-Smash
Forward-Smash
Down-smash

AERIALS (A + analog stick in direction while in air [or c-stick in a direction while in air])
Neutral Aerial
Forward Aerial
Back Aerial
Up Aerial
Down Aerial

SPECIALS (B + analog stick in direction)
Neutral Special
Up Special
Side Special
Down Special

THROWS (analog stick in direction while opponent is grabbed)
Up Throw
Back Throw
Forward Throw
Down Throw

There is also JAB, which is pressing A while standing still, DASH ATTACK, which is pressing A while running, and PUMMEL, which is pressing A while they're grabbed.

There is also Shield, Rolls (forward and back), Spot dodge (Shield + down on analog stick), Aerial Dodge (shield in air).

LEARN SOME THINGS:
Learn about DIRECTIONAL INFLUENCE and MOMENTUM CANCELING, which help you live longer.

Realize that only one person can be holding onto a ledge at a time, which you can use to kill people at low damages.

Learn that the higher your damage gets (%), the higher your knockback gets, and the faster you fly away. This means that as your damage gets higher, you can't get comboed as easily (since you get farther away from your opponent) and that you can die easier at higher Damage.

LEARN ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER:
Pick a character and stick to him! Play around with different characters for a bit. Feel them out in training mode. I love Legend of Zelda, but Link moves like an obese elderly man with a broken leg. Meanwhile, I haven't played a single Fire Emblem game, but Marth is the sexiest Brawl character I've ever seen. So yeah, pick a character. Maybe two. I have a problem where I can't really settle. I have like, 6 characters that I play. If you want you can look at the Tier List (found under the Competitive Brawl Discussion forum) to see which characters are good. Don't pick Meta Knight. Don't pick Ganondorf. Don't pick a character that you don't actually like that much just because he's good. I wanted to play Diddy Kong for awhile. Then I realized I f**king hate Diddy Kong.

Learn his moves! Learn which ones are good, which ones are bad. Read on that characters' forum.

Watch some videos! Youtube is a magical place. Learn what players are best at what character. For example, want to see a kickass Marth? Type "Mikeneko Marth Apex 2013" and watch the little Asian dude destroy Snakes left and right.

I don't really know what else to say. There's a lot to this game. Read. Watch. Practice with REAL PEOPLE. Realize that you're fighting REAL PEOPLE and use that against them. People make mistakes. People can be stupid. You can trick people. Mindgamez.

Don't play with Items. Games with Items just become "look at me guys I'm Sonic I can run to the Smart Bomb faster than you can." F**k items.

Play one on ones. They will hone your skills much better than the clusterf**ks that are 4 player fights.

Don't play on stupid stages. Generally stick to Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Delfino Plaza, Halberd if you're feeling particularly frisky, Pokemon Stadium (Melee), Frigate Orpheon.

OH. For God's sake, Google how to unlock all of the characters and stages!!! Trust me. You want them.

3 lives. 8 minutes. No items. Have fun.

Don't forget to come back to Smashboards to get help! I'm pretty much always here, so. Yeah. Also there are people on here much better at Brawl than I.

Tl;Dr: Read stuff on Smashboards. Watch stuff on Youtube.

 

[Shaya]

If you develop "bad habits" it's really really good to play other people who are striving to get better, if you can recognise bad habits in your friends and figure out how to punish them effectively you'll find very strong improvement.

Basically, there is no way in hell you won't have/develop bad habits. Learning to make use of them as a player to your advantage and also learning how to destroy someone for them. Unfortunately as a new player you won't essentially realise what you're looking out for, and it really all comes down to experience. A lot of Marth's always jump at a certain position whilst recovering, and while you may get away with that forever against your friends and not even contemplate it being a bad habit if you played against me (and others) I would be expecting that bad habit and be ready to swat you with a fair every time you're coming from off stage. There's a gazzilion things in Brawl to look out for, but the best things to contemplate is "where are they going to be in a moment and how do I capitalise?"

Just remember that EVERYTHING is punishable in this game when executed properly, if there is ever anything your opponent is doing that frustrates you / "you can't handle it" then as using Marth you have a lot of things you can do to over come them.
The most basic step in struggling to punish something is to forgo worrying about that specific move/dodge but concern yourself with what they're going to do afterwards. Instead of being frustrated trying to punish a spot dodge and it not working out, when you see the spot dodge automatically consider what they're going to do after and aim to punish that instead. While most players may not seem to be "predictable" in a one step fashion, a vast majority up until the high end of the spectrum are predictable for their second and third steps after their first.
As in, when I see them spot dodge and I'm -here- they always roll/fair/dash away etc etc. If they go for the roll after that spot dodge there's usually -this- telling sign

 

[sh0rtlilr3tard]

Wow, great responses Shaya and SSS. Most my friend's and I have very basic understanding of the game. We've played other fighting games before, and while this one is nothing like the street fighter series (or any other fighting game we've gotten into), a lot of concepts remain the same (spacing, baiting, etc). In our little group we have 9 people, and at least 2 of us have chosen Marth as our main. We got a MK, peach, Diddy, ZSS, Lucario, and a couple guys trying to figure out what they like. We're all ridiculously bad, and we know that for now Are there any ATs we should learn? For example, it seems Diddy players pretty much need Glide Toss to make good use of their strengths. Is DACUS, BDACUS, other techs things I should worry myself with?

Thanks so much for the help. Great to see these forums are still alive with knowledgeable and helpful people around.

Off topic: Is there a way to change your username? I made this when I was still in junior high, and would like to change it.

 

[ScareMl]

for questions on specific characters, I advise you go to their Q&A threads. We'll answer any Marth-related questions here though

 

[SSS]

Wow, great responses Shaya and SSS. Most my friend's and I have very basic understanding of the game. We've played other fighting games before, and while this one is nothing like the street fighter series (or any other fighting game we've gotten into), a lot of concepts remain the same (spacing, baiting, etc). In our little group we have 9 people, and at least 2 of us have chosen Marth as our main. We got a MK, peach, Diddy, ZSS, Lucario, and a couple guys trying to figure out what they like. We're all ridiculously bad, and we know that for now Are there any ATs we should learn? For example, it seems Diddy players pretty much need Glide Toss to make good use of their strengths. Is DACUS, BDACUS, other techs things I should worry myself with?

Thanks so much for the help. Great to see these forums are still alive with knowledgeable and helpful people around.

Off topic: Is there a way to change your username? I made this when I was still in junior high, and would like to change it.

Like ScareMI said, it depends on the character. If you want to get into Sheik or something, sure, learn DACUS. If you're playing Marth, he doesn't have a DACUS. Learn to auto-cancel aerials (so that you hit the ground before they finish, removing lag). If you're Marth, learn to SPIKE. Stuff like that. Watch videos and you'll see some cool stuff, then ask on here how they did that.

As for the name, I would go to the forum's main Q/A thread. I am pretty sure an admin could change it for you.

 

[smashkng]

Can anyone give a full list of CGs/throw combos we have on Pikachu?

 

[Nicholas1024]

I don't know all of them, but at 0% you can get F-throw, F-throw, D-throw, tipper F-smash. More D-throws may be possible, but I know that sequence works. Also, at 8% you can D-throw to tipper F-smash (or again, more D-throws depending on how far that goes, I'm not sure.)

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Could someone explain/go over how the Marth/DK mu goes? o-o

EDIT:Also the Wario mu too plz? D: I don't really know a whole lot about them. :o

 

[Kel]

Ralph are you wanting to know how the MU goes from Marth's perspective or Wario and DK?

The DK MU is dictated completely by which way DK is facing:
If DK is facing backward, Marth has to weave in and out of DK's laggier Bair with DB or fair.
If DK is facing toward Marth, Marth will pressure DK's front with Fair as DK does not have a good option to deal with this other than ftilt (which is laggy and baitable).


CJ! I lost to an MK this weekend that I really feel I should have beaten. I was up a bunch and then just got MK-gayed. Help me, CJ-wan-Kenobi, you're my only hope. I don't get why Mikeneko always sh retreating fairs against MK and I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do to approach. After I get momentum I am fine, but getting through MK's defenses is super tough. I felt I had to make super hard reads just to get 10%.

 

[Shaya]

MikeNeko is very tight with the timing of his fairs on the short hop, but uses a lot more full hopping gestures than you'd expect. It's relatively about timing, he doesn't fair immediately and his timing with hitting MK's shield (their usual option) with the maximum "disjoint"; it's more so vertically disjointed than horizontally, being pretty much perfect for striking the top of shields with and being that 'vertical disjoint' it actually just flat out beats out a lot of **** on the same horizontal (but lower down) plane, so outspaces shuttle loop and is awkward for MK to space tilts and dsmash around. In short he waits for their movement (picking very very very safe times to jump) and fairs accordingly. Logistically, MikeNeko jumps with about close to 20 frames of leeway (due to his spacing / timing / reaction time) in his fair timing (with us being able to start ff at 24 frames and I can't exactly recall the time we land after, 40? maybe less), basically he wasn't too prepared for that weakness not being there for zero suit samus (although he adapted).

IMO the DK match up is about abusing neutral air. If you can get free fairs for pressure, you go for them, but otherwise you zone with nair in a matter of > first hit being spaced his legs/arms as he swings Marth will be safely behind the disjoint and swipe DK and you get reaction time for whether to weave in if they hadn't started an attack for your second hit of nair (and can redo the same bait for extra gayness / patient play) and pick a really good landing situation. When I played Will his answer was power shielding first hit of nair while facing backwards and getting into the air freely [he also up tilted which is surprisingly good] basically using the second hit of nair for the same purpose of the first was my answer to this, but Will2gud.

</NotCJ>

 

[C.J.]

I swear I JUST wrote up an 11 page essay on Marth vs DK.

I hate everyone so much.

Didn't read Shaya's post yet, fighting with airline companies atm. Kel, I'll answer you/read Shaya's post once I get to Dallas.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Ralph are you wanting to know how the MU goes from Marth's perspective or Wario and DK?

The DK MU is dictated completely by which way DK is facing:
If DK is facing backward, Marth has to weave in and out of DK's laggier Bair with DB or fair.
If DK is facing toward Marth, Marth will pressure DK's front with Fair as DK does not have a good option to deal with this other than ftilt (which is laggy and baitable)

For DK I guess I wanted it from his perspective and for Wario Marth's. o-o Also I just found that large writeup C.J. made about it so I guess I don't need anything about DK anymore lol.

I swear I JUST wrote up an 11 page essay on Marth vs DK.

I hate everyone so much.

Didn't read Shaya's post yet, fighting with airline companies atm. Kel, I'll answer you/read Shaya's post once I get to Dallas.

Sry lol. I don't really come here often, but I found it. D:


CTRL + Q to Enable/Disable GoPhoto.it

 

[SSS]

How do you force an air release from a grab?

edit: And, for that matter, how do you force a ground release?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Air Release = No pumble
Ground = Pumble

You can still Air Release if you Pumble then stop or people mash out between pumbles. At low percents though it's generally better to not pumble if you're going for an air release.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If your opponent's feet are touching the ground, you can't force an Aerial GR unless they press an Up or Jump input while trying to get out. If they know what they are doing, they simply won't do it and Release to the ground.

You can force a Grounded GR by constantly pummeling, no matter the opponent character.

 

[SSS]

That's what I thought.

What are Marth's options when hanging on a ledge?
What are his options when the opponent is on the ledge?
I don't like Marth on Yoshis Island. What are some matchups that I need to worry about it being selected?
Ice Climbers help? Specifically, separating them?
Ftilt vs Jab?
Options for punishing opponents rolling through me to behind me?
Can I counter Lucarios counter?

Also, was Smashboards down earlier?

Thanks a bunch.

 

[smashkng]

On the ledge, Marth is better below 100% than above 100% IMO. Below 100% he can ledge jump into invincible any aerial if you buffer the ledge jump (Fair hits grounded opponents if you time well, the IASA frames of ledge jumps are unbufferable) while above it it's too slow to give invincibility during the hitboxes of the aerials even when you buffer the ledge jump. All of his regular get up options below 100% are better to IMO, especially normal get up (which is the best one in the game when below 100%). Don't be predictable with your get up options, try to pick up something the opponent doesn't expect. An example can be ledge hop into SB, which has a lot of horizontal range and catch them offguard when they think they're at safe range. Counter can defend against an MK who likes to spam Fsmash when you're on the ledge. Be patient too. Try not to Up b or DS ledge regrab when you don't need to put RCO lag on yourself, as that makes it even harder to get off the ledge.


The options depends on MU. Some like Falco are harder to ledge trap cause he has side b to get back onstage quickly while others like DK can be ledge trapped almost forever if you do it correctly. Stay at a safe range (in general about the middle of the side plataforms of BF, but it still depends on MU) and react to the opponent. Learning what animation for example ZSS' get up attack above 100% looks like helps too. If you see them trying to get up attack you can either space and Fsmash or shield it and Up b OoS to send them back offstage.

You can punish opponents rolling behind you pretty reliably with turn-around Dsmash, DB and Up b (Up b is our fast option behind OoS). Usmash (even OoS) works wonders too if they are close to you after the roll. These moves should punish the opponent really hard for making such a dumb decision unless they roll behind you with MK's forward roll in an unpredictable way.