Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[CURRY]

... did Pierce ever write an "Intermediate" guide? And if so, where is it? :<
http://smashboards.com/threads/mart...to-use-marths-moves-at-a-novice-level.263946/

 

[Jackson]

I agree with Shaya. Clawing for me is the same as turning tap jump off- I'm not used to it, and just would not work unless I would spend a long, long time getting used to it. Even then I probably wouldn't like it.

 

[Jackson]

It's because it's unnatural, and people will tend to stick to what they've already learnt how to play with. It's a really drastic change going from natural hand positioning and clawing and in most poeple's eyes the benefits/efficiency gains are fact, but it doesn't turn impossibles into possibles.

Agreed. For me, it's just like turning tap jump off- it just doesn't feel right.

Another question: Can somebody tell me how exactly to do the Dancing Blade ledge regrab glitch? I feel as though that AT could help my game by giving me easier edgehogs. I tried to find it out on some random sites, but they weren't really all that specific. Could one of you guys tell me exactly how to do it? Thanks.

 

[smashkng]

Don't you mean Dolphin Slash regrab? There is no DB regrab. And that one is done by simply Up bing right next to the ledge. It allows you to grab the edge much faster. But be careful with it: it gives you RCO lag.

 

[Jackson]

Don't you mean Dolphin Slash regrab? There is no DB regrab. And that one is done by simply Up bing right next to the ledge. It allows you to grab the edge much faster. But be careful with it: it gives you RCO lag.

Ahh... Now I see why it wasn't working, haha. For the longest time i thought people saying DS meant Dancing Sword, another name for Dancing Blade. Thanks smashkng, this should be helpful. Also, RCO lag is lag upon landing, correct?

 

[smashkng]

Yeah. It's a super annoying mechanic that applies to certain characters and Marth is one of the victims of it . Unfortunately MK isn't one of them. Usually when you land you have 2 frames in soft landing and 4 frames when hard landing. RCO lag causes it to become instead 15 frames soft landing and a whopping 35 frames (for Marth, it varies per character) when hard landing if you Up b and grab the ledge (or you get hit during Up b so that your special state gets cancelled out. You can override the RCO lag by landing with a Fair/Uair/Nair on the ground so that the landing lag becomes instead a much more doable 9 frames (though if you land with aerials it still gives 30-35% more landing lag than the aerial would usually give, usually those 3 aerials have 8 frames landing lag). Landing with Counter, SB or side b prevents you from getting the landing lag, but you will still preserve it and next time you land you still will get RCO lag. The only ways to get rid of RCO lag are by landing (normal, air dodge or aerial), landing while in special state (from Up b) or losing a stock unfortunately. That's why it can be a good idea not to Up b when you don't have to, especially when above 100%. Cause the RCO lag is one thing that can make it very annoying to climb from the ledge with Marth.

 

[Jackson]

Yeah. It's a super annoying mechanic that applies to certain characters and Marth is one of the victims of it . Unfortunately MK isn't one of them. Usually when you land you have 2 frames in soft landing and 4 frames when hard landing. RCO lag causes it to become instead 15 frames soft landing and a whopping 35 frames (for Marth, it varies per character) when hard landing if you Up b and grab the ledge (or you get hit during Up b so that your special state gets cancelled out. You can override the RCO lag by landing with a Fair/Uair/Nair on the ground so that the landing lag becomes instead a much more doable 9 frames (though if you land with aerials it still gives 30-35% more landing lag than the aerial would usually give, usually those 3 aerials have 8 frames landing lag). Landing with Counter, SB or side b prevents you from getting the landing lag, but you will still preserve it and next time you land you still will get RCO lag. The only ways to get rid of RCO lag are by landing (normal, air dodge or aerial), landing while in special state (from Up b) or losing a stock unfortunately. That's why it can be a good idea not to Up b when you don't have to, especially when above 100%. Cause the RCO lag is one thing that can make it very annoying to climb from the ledge with Marth.

Very good to know. Geez.. 35 frames IS pretty whopping!

 

[CURRY]

*whispers*
Did Pierce ever make a sequel to this guide...
http://smashboards.com/threads/mart...to-use-marths-moves-at-a-novice-level.263946/

 

[Jackson]

poor curry... i myself do not know...

 

[Shaya]

Do a search for all posts made by myself or C.J in the Marth boards only.

If the post lengths of them are relatively long, you're likely to find something useful to read.

 

[Zano]

nah, ignore the really long ones, just DS OoS anytime someone hits you and you win

 

[ぱみゅ]

And Dtilt all the way in

 

[CURRY]

I just did Advanced search for authors CJ and Shaya in the Marth subforum, and I just got a whole bunch of results of just the Q&A thread results.
So is it good just to look through the Q&A...? lolol
IS THIS TYPE OF NOT MARTH-RELATED QUESTION EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE Q&A THREAD >.>
*sigh*
I guesssssss I could say, how do you limit your search even more so that I can find the better posts...?

 

[Shaya]

As in, when you clicked on those results they took you no where in particular in the Q&A thread? Try selecting "Threads" to search for rather than posts.

 

[Taytertot]

I've got a theory about marth, but I don't know whether it's too far to suggest.
I'm curious if anyone thinks that when marth's moveset, movement, etc. was being created, the game that marth originated from (Fire Emblem) was at least a partial consideration for how it would be done. Fire Emblem is a strategy game for those who don't know, where you and the computer take turns moving each unit (or character) across squares and each unit has a certain amount of movement. Spacing is a huge aspect of the game because units don't come back after killed and each unit is unique to a degree. In the game it is usually smart to play safe and wait outside the movement areas of enemies and let them come into your area so that you can attack first. I'd love to keep explaining the game but it would probably be better to just look the game up on youtube if you haven't seen it. My point is that the strategies used in Fire Emblem seem to reflect smart gameplay for marth in brawl. I have a similar theory for all of the brawl characters, but I was curious if this seemed far fetched or if the Fire Emblem games themselves could be, in some way, inspiration for how marth should be played in brawl?

 

[Jackson]

I've got a theory about marth, but I don't know whether it's too far to suggest.
I'm curious if anyone thinks that when marth's moveset, movement, etc. was being created, the game that marth originated from (Fire Emblem) was at least a partial consideration for how it would be done. Fire Emblem is a strategy game for those who don't know, where you and the computer take turns moving each unit (or character) across squares and each unit has a certain amount of movement. Spacing is a huge aspect of the game because units don't come back after killed and each unit is unique to a degree. In the game it is usually smart to play safe and wait outside the movement areas of enemies and let them come into your area so that you can attack first. I'd love to keep explaining the game but it would probably be better to just look the game up on youtube if you haven't seen it. My point is that the strategies used in Fire Emblem seem to reflect smart gameplay for marth in brawl. I have a similar theory for all of the brawl characters, but I was curious if this seemed far fetched or if the Fire Emblem games themselves could be, in some way, inspiration for how marth should be played in brawl?

I am very familiar with the series, as the latest 3DS entry, Fire Emblem Awakening, is arguably my favorite game, rivaling Brawl (this is why I really want Chrom in Smash 4). Your theory is really interesting! It actually seems quite possible, I never thought of it that way. Like you said, since you want to stay an optimal distance away from your opponent in order to fight well in Fire Emblem, they could've carried that over to brawl for Marth's tipping mechanic... again, very interesting! I like the creativity!

 

[C.J.]

http://smashboards.com/search/307832/

Don't click on the name of the thread, click the preview of the post itself.

So for example, you'd click on "Other than just playing the game..." not on the title of the thread.

For Shaya:
http://smashboards.com/search/307843/

 

[Taytertot]

Thanks I played fire emblem 7, sacred stones and path of radiance and was only slightly disappointed in the latter. The others were awesome. I thought that a lot of it carried over like the different weapons could be considered as marth's different attacks in brawl. Some weapons in fire emblem do more damage at the cost of accuracy just like marth's more powerful moves in brawl have less of a chance of hitting (for the most part). There's also the positioning advantages in fire emblem that could carry over though I suppose you could say that positioning is important for every brawl character. There are also weapons in fire emblem that allow you to attack from far range but may not be the most effective depending on the situation and positioning. Similarly, you could use the longer ranged attacks marth has in brawl to keep your opponent from getting too close or, for example, you could use the weak hit of marth's fair to combo with another fair, which may not work if you used tipper fair depending on percent.

 

[CURRY]

http://smashboards.com/search/307832/

Don't click on the name of the thread, click the preview of the post itself.

So for example, you'd click on "Other than just playing the game..." not on the title of the thread.

For Shaya:
http://smashboards.com/search/307843/

Lol thanks, that's kinda cool ^-^
But I got error for both of the links.
But how I was searching was Advanced search -> Search Threads and Posts. Then I put both names in "Posted by Member:" then in "Search in Forums", I put this subforum. Is there anything else I should add in the search?
I'm not really looking through posts right now because school. Holy crud.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah search queries are deleted after a short period of time. If you were able to have CJ give them to you live you'd be able to view them.

Try searching names individually. When doing myself I got 9 pages of posts made by me. A lot of things may or may not be helpful. If you're that keen to read through them for helpful things, go ahead~

Majority of CJ's posts are informative while I'd say half or more of mine (Social thread stuff) could be rubbish~

 

[Jackson]

Okay, undoubtedly all you guys know this, so I was wondering if you think it has any application. By starting a dash and then instantly doing an up smash or a grab, you can do a really quick boost grab, boost pivot grab, or hyphen smash. Do you think this is useful competitively? The quick deceptive movements could be useful. What do you guys think?

 

[1PokeMastr]

First two are useless with Marth.

For a Hyphen Smash, all I see is it being used to read jumps or punish Oos if they're out of normal range.

 

[Jackson]

First two are useless with Marth.

For a Hyphen Smash, all I see is it being used to read jumps or punish Oos if they're out of normal range.

True... Now that I think about it, if l could boost grab and try to nab them, I would most likely be in range for a tipped down tilt or something instead.

 

[Shaya]

Boost pivot grab is okay.

 

[Jackson]

Boost pivot grab is okay.

I kinda felt the same way. It's pretty deceptive.

 

[CURRY]

I honestly don't see the point, neither do I see any difference in the hyphen smash from just a normal dash -> Usmash...

 

[Jackson]

I honestly don't see the point, neither do I see any difference in the hyphen smash from just a normal dash -> Usmash...

I guess you're right. I think the boost smash is a bit quicker though, because you don't really ACTUALLY start your dash.

 

[CURRY]

wat.
Welp.
Can someone tell me the difference between hyphen smash and the normal dash -> Usmash?
Being mostly a TL main, hyphen smash apparently slides a little...? And it's about the same as TL's DACUs apparently, but his DACUS is unnoticable. It's apparently the much easier version of doing a DACUS, for TL.
So yeah. What is the thing with hyphen smashes?

 

[Jackson]

wat.
Welp.
Can someone tell me the difference between hyphen smash and the normal dash -> Usmash?
Being mostly a TL main, hyphen smash apparently slides a little...? And it's about the same as TL's DACUs apparently, but his DACUS is unnoticable. It's apparently the much easier version of doing a DACUS, for TL.
So yeah. What is the thing with hyphen smashes?

Hmm... I'm pretty sure hyphen smash is the same thing as dashing up smash.

 

[C.J.]

God hyphen smash is the worst smash tech name that we have.

Hyphen smash is literally just usmashing out of your dash or run at any point. Different characters slide different amounts.

I hate that name so much.

 

[Jackson]

God hyphen smash is the worst smash tech name that we have.

Hyphen smash is literally just usmashing out of your dash or run at any point. Different characters slide different amounts.

I hate that name so much.

Agreed. Why not just dash smash or something?

 

[Zano]

because that's even worse

 

[CURRY]

I don't know, the naming of the hyphen smash seems like it does cause more confusion than needed for convinience; still better to just so dash to Usmash I guess.

Though, I remember reading somewhere that a hyphen smash is called what it is because it's a dash that's cut shorter... Hah...haha.
Pretty clever.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I've been calling it Hyphen Smash before I even had internet.

 

[Shaya]

Canada - that fourth world country where even the basic necessities of a shining sun and internet are horded and the masses are left to wither.

 

[ViperGold42]

Cruuud. I think I know what you're talking about by that, where you use your index finger on the Y to jump and A buttons, while thumb on the Cstick...
I find it a lot harder to short hop though. Do a lot of people lose their short hop ability by doing this? Because I see that a lot of people don't use the claw while holding the GC... and lol I just now learned that's it's CALLED the claw xD
so yeah. Why doesn't everyone use it if it generally gives you more access to all the functions of the GC quicker?
Also, is that why people talk about using the other jump button to do something, like grab or shield? (Middle finger for Z or no?)

Marth, right now, is like, my secondary, kinda. I also play Toon, so the Z button (as an aerial) is incorporated into my playstyle a TON.
(And holy crud the Marth boards are really active compared to others)

My control tag is the same. and bro I main Toon and 2nd Marth. but I use Y for aerial.

 

[1PokeMastr]

The snow makes it somewhat difficult to live.

The other day, the roof of my Igloo caved in AND my Polar bear ran away.

 

[CURRY]

SO.
I'M GETTING THE HANG OF CLAWING.

lots of questions.
I've noticed that Marth has a lot of horizontal momentum when he is jumping. So no wonder we can keep moving forward while doing a FF Fair.
So while doing a shorthopped Fair, do you just keep holding:

down+left,
down + right,
and/or
down?

Like, so you still kinda in control of where you're moving? Or no? Because I feel that it's kinda hard to space the shorthop AS WELL AS the Fair; because I've been practicing spacing rising Fairs up until I read that it was generally bad to do rising Fairs.

-So as with all characters, it takes a while before they can FF. why aren't Marth's FF Fairs read by opponents really hard?
-Tippered Fair does quite a bit of knockback. I don't get how FF Fair -> Dtilt works at higher/medium percents.
-Why is rising Fair generally a bad choice? I've been practicing rising Fair until now, and I thought that rising Fairs seem relatively easy to space and tipper.
-Why is FF Fair better than slow falled Fair?

Unrelated to Fair-ing:
-Why don't I see pros in Tourneys refreshing their stale moves after their opponent dies? (like spamming ftilt or SH FF Uair or something) Like, in fact, they spam dtilts.
-Where should Marth be, in terms of the stage? Center, I'm assuming?
-What does Marth do with platforms? While fighting? While recovering from above?
-I've noticed that Marth has a few frames of releasing shield before he does a DS. So am I doing something wrong? I release shield then do up+b....

(What kind of things deserve to be a post, and what do not deserve to be posts? Because this was certainly not "a quick question".)

 

[smashkng]

You should jump + Up b immediately afterwards, not release Up b. Optimally it would be jump and the frame after Up b. Up b completely cancels the jump animation. Release Up b is only faster if you PS and immediately afterwards press Up b. Moves only stale if you actually hit the opponent or an item, I don't think hitting shield refreshes your moves. As of with comboing Fair into Dtilt, it's not something I really recommend but it can sometimes work. It can work at lower percents if you hit the opponent with the Fair from close range. Comboing Fair into dash DB works in much more situations.

As of with Fair, try to mix up as much as you can so that they won't be able to predict you. Marth's Fair if spaced is pretty much unpunishable on block so they have to read what you'll do and reposition so that they can shield grab or anti-air you. Rising Fair is pretty good, but don't forget that to count the jump start-up too, it takes 6 frames before Marth goes into the air and then Fairs, which takes additional 5-6 frames to come out on grounded opponents. The thing with rising retreating Fair is that although the move itself is pretty much unpunishable if spaced right you're in the air afterwards above the opponent so you'll have to work on trying to land afterwards, which a good player won't let happen too easily. As of with FF and non-FF Fair, quickly landing with Fair reduces the shield advantage from the opponent, meaning that FFing gives them less frames to punish you. The amount of frames they can punish you are very little if you FF perfectly. However, a slow falled Fair has its advantages too. Because it takes longer before you land you have a chance to retreat even more or if hit them from closer range, even tricking the opponent with a cross-up afterwards is possible. Again you don't want the opponent to read you cause otherwise they can intercept you with their anti-air. but most anti-airs in the game are pretty laggy so you can bait and punish that too. There are so many ways to use the Fair and there is no best one, it depends on the situation and is heavily about mixing up those amazing options. As of with SH Fairs, how we move the control stick depends on how we want to Fair with it. There is no special way of moving the control stick to space it specifically as you want.

Where Marth wants to be? Having the opponent cornered. That's where Marth can shut down characters. But Marth definitely doesn't want to be cornered himself. While the opponent isn't cornered then yeah the center of the stage is best cause it's harder to be sent offstage there. Same with the air really. Marth wants to keep the opponent in the air at all time while he himself doesn't want to be above the opponent ever.

Offensively, Marth can use his disjointed moves to hit through plataforms. They can't air dodge through plataforms because air dodging makes you land on plataforms. The same thing with throwing out an aerial. Even if they shield it they're still on the plataform and have to shield drop to punish reliably, a thing which many people haven't mastered even today. You can also use plataforms to camp below them because the plataforms limits their aerial approach options. When Marth is the air, plataforms can be pretty harmful for Marth, or you can use it to trick an opponent by just falling through the plataform and just attacking them afterwards with something like Fair.

 

[Jackson]

Power shielding is quickly shielding an attack with no lag, correct? I understand that it's important for competitive play. Anybody know a good way I can practice this so I can get my timing down better?