Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Jackson]

So I'm trying turning Tap Jump on.
It's funny because sometimes, because of Tap Jump, I accidentally do something smart and somehow get into a advantageous state..
Sooooo. You said that buffering an attack with tap jump turns it into a short hop attack. Yeeahhhhh so didn't we discuss earlier that it's not very good doing rising Fairs? ._.
Meh. Well. So shorthopping with tap jump is hard to do CONSISTENTLY. Is that just something you have to practice? :<
Also although a lot better than clawing for me, it still takes some time to switch from the jump/special/attack pad (I don't know what to call it) to the cstick... which might affect my game? :<

I feel you, I've use tap jump on since I got the game, and I still have problems short hopping with the control stick consistently.

 

[Jackson]

So I'm trying turning Tap Jump on.
It's funny because sometimes, because of Tap Jump, I accidentally do something smart and somehow get into a advantageous state..
Sooooo. You said that buffering an attack with tap jump turns it into a short hop attack. Yeeahhhhh so didn't we discuss earlier that it's not very good doing rising Fairs? ._.
Meh. Well. So shorthopping with tap jump is hard to do CONSISTENTLY. Is that just something you have to practice? :<
Also although a lot better than clawing for me, it still takes some time to switch from the jump/special/attack pad (I don't know what to call it) to the cstick... which might affect my game? :<

I feel ya curry. I've used tap jump on since I got the game, and I still have problems short hopping with the control stick consistently. I guess you just gotta remember to let go of it quickly once you flick it up.

 

[Hughie]

I keep tap jump on only for an easy up-b/usmash OoS. I still jump usually with x and stuff. But really it's all about practice, do whatever you feel most comfortable with.

 

[1PokeMastr]

So I'm trying turning Tap Jump on.
It's funny because sometimes, because of Tap Jump, I accidentally do something smart and somehow get into a advantageous state..
Sooooo. You said that buffering an attack with tap jump turns it into a short hop attack. Yeeahhhhh so didn't we discuss earlier that it's not very good doing rising Fairs? ._.
Meh. Well. So shorthopping with tap jump is hard to do CONSISTENTLY. Is that just something you have to practice? :<
Also although a lot better than clawing for me, it still takes some time to switch from the jump/special/attack pad (I don't know what to call it) to the cstick... which might affect my game? :<

I never mess up a short hop with tap jump, just comes in practice.
You don't really need to buffer an aerial if you want to use it in a full hop, most of the time you're aiming to use the aerial at the peak of the full hop height anyway, unless it's air release dair on mk.

Just get faster thumbs for the last part.

 

[Tabernacle]

What's a good secondary main to Marth

 

[smashkng]

MK is the best one. But Marth doesn't truelly need secondaries. Marth only truelly loses to MK (still winnable other than very few CP stages like Halberd or Delfino, but then, which character does that well there against him?), DDD (still from my experience it feels very close to even) and maybe ICs. All other MUs are either even or better for Marth (though Marth has a lot of even or just slight advantage matchups). So, it's not strange that most of the better Marths don't use secondaries. However, Marth is arguably more demanding to become good with than the other top tiers due to his requirement of really good spacing, game understanding to read opponents and learning to pick the right options at the right situations. Still, even if you don't plan to have secondaries, trying out other characters can help you really much with learning matchups: it can help you better with understanding what that character can do and what it can't do.

 

[Tabernacle]

MK is the best one. But Marth doesn't truelly need secondaries. Marth only truelly loses to MK (still winnable other than very few CP stages like Halberd or Delfino, but then, which character does that well there against him?), DDD (still from my experience it feels very close to even) and maybe ICs. All other MUs are either even or better for Marth (though Marth has a lot of even or just slight advantage matchups). So, it's not strange that most of the better Marths don't use secondaries. However, Marth is arguably more demanding to become good with than the other top tiers due to his requirement of really good spacing, game understanding to read opponents and learning to pick the right options at the right situations. Still, even if you don't plan to have secondaries, trying out other characters can help you really much with learning matchups: it can help you better with understanding what that character can do and what it can't do.

Thank you for the speedy response. I might try and pickup MK on the side, the problem was, more than anything, the lack of projectiles that Marth has.

 

[smashkng]

Projectiles shouldn't be a too big of a deal unless it's wifi and the connection is terrible. Marth may not have projectiles or a reflector, but he has above average mobility both in the air and on the ground including the fastest walk in the game, quick moves and his aerials are pretty good at stopping projectiles which haven't trascendent priority. Most players who use projectile characters have patterns in their projectile spam game, abuse that. Usually I walk and PS when far (including walk, PS, walk again, PS once again and so on), then when I'm close enough I do either of the following:
1 dash and DB/dash grab (against Falco I mix up Dash attack too because thanks to his crouching he can dash attack under lasers unless he throws them extremely low, which gives me just more frames to hit him out of his lasers). From close enough should guarantee punish especially against laggier projectiles, which most projectiles really are.
2 Jumping in and throwing out a well spaced Fair can be relatively reliable too on most projectile characters. It's safe on shield when spaced correctly and when positioning correctly it can be extremely hard to anti-air too. Against ROB I try to space it around his head with the Fair hitbox diagonally below Marth. ROB has problems against such types of spacings because other than his really slow Nair, his moves either have long horizontal range but low height or low horizontal range but high height.
3 walk/dash and shield (or just wait for them to get closer if you're at a distance where you can react to that) to bait out their attempt to attack you in order for them to reset the situation. Punish that and then you'll likely gain momentum and have chance to put heavy damage on the opponent.

But mix up your approaches. Predictability is bad (if you allow them to predict you're gonna Fair in a certain way, they can reposition where so that the Fair becomes much easier to punish) and Marth has a large enough amount of options to avoid it without being unsafe. And don't get too frustrated by a player with great defense. You'll eventually get in (easier than nearly every other non-projectile character in the game) and once you do, if you're doing everything right you should be racking a lot of damage before the situation is reset. Taking 7% damage from a projectile is nothing compared to dealing 60% damage or more from a single string.

 

[Jackson]

I believe there was a thread on this, but I need more help. I've been struggling with the Wolf matchup. This one guy always plays him against my Marth. When I'm far, he pesters me with lasers (thanks Smashkng for the above answer about it though), and when I'm close, his smashes always seem to outrange and beat my other moves. It's hard to punish because when I try, it seems like he can instantly start another move to punish ME for trying. He also juggles me a lot. Sorry for the long question, but how can I win this infuriating matchup?

 

[smashkng]

Like I said on that other thread, Wolf's smashes are really unsafe on shield. Just don't mash shield grab and instead think about Marth's other OoS options like Dolphin Slash, Dancing Blade and Fair (angle it forward to increase its horizontal range, it really does work and the range of Up b when angled forward is pretty damn crazy if you ask me). Try out Wolf in training mode and check his cooldown of his smashes. If you do what I said and still have trouble punishing his smashes, then you just aren't reacting fast enough. But don't worry, becoming fast at punishing just comes with practice.

Against characters with longer Marth like DK, ROB and Wolf, you have to play more like a bait-and punish game. Marth can do this well however. Marth's disjoints are very useful against those kinds of characters, because you still have the advantage of having disjoints while they don't have that. You retreat your aerials more than usual and when they throw a Bair/Ftilt/whatever their extended hitbox makes them get hit. Or position with your approaches to walk/dash and PS JUST at the range where that laggy Ftilt/Wolf Smashes hits at max range and then run and DB OoS. Because those moves aren't truelly safe even at max range if you react fast enough. And those characters outranging Marth usually only truelly counts on the ground. Once you get them either above you or offstage it's pretty damn easy to hit those characters in their blindspots ALMOST for free. Usually Wolf doesn't have that big of a problem getting out of the air, but against Marth it's different for him. If you space your Uairs well when you're below him, I think you can hit through his Shine without that hitting you, making neither take damage but you still keeping him in a disadvantageous position and probably getting a free hit with the 2nd move you throw out. Don't let characters with a strong neutral game frustrate you, you can change the momentum of the game dramatically by just landing a decent hit, which is easy enough with Marth if he's playing correctly. Wolf may not have to take as high risks in the neutral game as Marth has to (though the risks Marth has to take are also low) but he can't punish as hard as Marth can. Wolf has strings too but they usually don't lead to as much damage as Marth's strings do and Wolf's KO moves aren't as good as our's. Marth also edge guards Wolf a lot harder than viceversa (don't think like you can edge guard for free though, it's better than you'd think it is). Still overall I'd call Wolf relatively easy to edge guard, at least from my experience.

If you jump and you predict him trying to stop you with aerials, retreat more and Fair him. He extends his hurtbox when he Bairs or Fairs. Both may have more range than our Fair, but even if he doesn't throw out that aerial, our retreated Fair is usually still safe even on whiff. His own Bair is safe on block when spaced well, but even that move is punishable. Just like characters can reposition to punish Marth's Fair, you can use that tactic against Wolf's Bair too. Crouching and then shielding just before Wolf does a landing Bair will give you more frames to PS (the thing is that if you crouch and the hitbox whiffs at the height you would get hit if you didn't crouch, and then you cancel the crouch with shield, you'll automatically PS if the hitbox of that move is still active). And when you PS it's a lot easier to shield grab or DS OoS punish Wolf's Bair. Wolf can't throw out his Bairs in the same way we can with our Fair because his Bair doesn't hit like an arc, forcing him to choose more predictable patterns than we are when we use our Fair while falling down (it's still a really good move though, arguably Wolf's best one). Wolf also has a terrible fast fall while we have a pretty good one which limits his options above you and the patterns he can take when throwing out the Bair.

Marth is pretty bad above an opponent. Wolf is no exception when it comes to giving trouble when Marth is above him. But I don't want to repeat about how you get back down from opponents. Check out http://smashboards.com/threads/ask-...-the-marth-faqs.188570/page-262#post-16324845
Still, it shouldn't be THAT big of a problem, characters like another Marth, MK or ZSS are a lot scarier than Wolf when Marth is trying to land.

 

[Jackson]

Like I said on that other thread, Wolf's smashes are really unsafe on shield. Just don't mash shield grab and instead think about Marth's other OoS options like Dolphin Slash, Dancing Blade and Fair (angle it forward to increase its horizontal range, it really does work and the range of Up b when angled forward is pretty damn crazy if you ask me). Try out Wolf in training mode and check his cooldown of his smashes. If you do what I said and still have trouble punishing his smashes, then you just aren't reacting fast enough. But don't worry, becoming fast at punishing just comes with practice.

Against characters with longer Marth like DK, ROB and Wolf, you have to play more like a bait-and punish game. Marth can do this well however. Marth's disjoints are very useful against those kinds of characters, because you still have the advantage of having disjoints while they don't have that. You retreat your aerials more than usual and when they throw a Bair/Ftilt/whatever their extended hitbox makes them get hit. Or position with your approaches to walk/dash and PS JUST at the range where that laggy Ftilt/Wolf Smashes hits at max range and then run and DB OoS. Because those moves aren't truelly safe even at max range if you react fast enough. And those characters outranging Marth usually only truelly counts on the ground. Once you get them either above you or offstage it's pretty damn easy to hit those characters in their blindspots ALMOST for free. Usually Wolf doesn't have that big of a problem getting out of the air, but against Marth it's different for him. If you space your Uairs well when you're below him, I think you can hit through his Shine without that hitting you, making neither take damage but you still keeping him in a disadvantageous position and probably getting a free hit with the 2nd move you throw out. Don't let characters with a strong neutral game frustrate you, you can change the momentum of the game dramatically by just landing a decent hit, which is easy enough with Marth if he's playing correctly. Wolf may not have to take as high risks in the neutral game as Marth has to (though the risks Marth has to take are also low) but he can't punish as hard as Marth can. Wolf has strings too but they usually don't lead to as much damage as Marth's strings do and Wolf's KO moves aren't as good as our's. Marth also edge guards Wolf a lot harder than viceversa (don't think like you can edge guard for free though, it's better than you'd think it is). Still overall I'd call Wolf relatively easy to edge guard, at least from my experience.

If you jump and you predict him trying to stop you with aerials, retreat more and Fair him. He extends his hurtbox when he Bairs or Fairs. Both may have more range than our Fair, but even if he doesn't throw out that aerial, our retreated Fair is usually still safe even on whiff. His own Bair is safe on block when spaced well, but even that move is punishable. Just like characters can reposition to punish Marth's Fair, you can use that tactic against Wolf's Bair too. Crouching and then shielding just before Wolf does a landing Bair will give you more frames to PS (the thing is that if you crouch and the hitbox whiffs at the height you would get hit if you didn't crouch, and then you cancel the crouch with shield, you'll automatically PS if the hitbox of that move is still active). And when you PS it's a lot easier to shield grab or DS OoS punish Wolf's Bair. Wolf can't throw out his Bairs in the same way we can with our Fair because his Bair doesn't hit like an arc, forcing him to choose more predictable patterns than we are when we use our Fair while falling down (it's still a really good move though, arguably Wolf's best one). Wolf also has a terrible fast fall while we have a pretty good one which limits his options above you and the patterns he can take when throwing out the Bair.

Marth is pretty bad above an opponent. Wolf is no exception when it comes to giving trouble when Marth is above him. But I don't want to repeat about how you get back down from opponents. Check out http://smashboards.com/threads/ask-...-the-marth-faqs.188570/page-262#post-16324845
Still, it shouldn't be THAT big of a problem, characters like another Marth, MK or ZSS are a lot scarier than Wolf when Marth is trying to land.

Thanks a lot, @ smashkng , your long responses always help me. I think the key point here is for me to punish his side smash spam. I can't believe I hadn't thought of pivot dancing blade when he side smashes through my shield. Also I probably need to stop looking for grabs so hard on his fresh stock. The 30 percent Fthrow to Fsmash or Dair is awesome, but maybe not worth it if I get 50 percent first.

 

[smashkng]

Yeah Jackson, if you find the chance to get the grab at 0%, awesome, but forcing the grab is just bad. Marth's ability to land grabs isn't as good as in Melee. But there will be chances to get that early grab from time to time, just not always. If you get the chance to punish with stuff which aren't grab, do that instead. Sending Wolf out of his neutral position is always great with Marth.

 

[Jackson]

Yeah Jackson, if you find the chance to get the grab at 0%, awesome, but forcing the grab is just bad. Marth's ability to land grabs isn't as good as in Melee. But there will be chances to get that early grab from time to time, just not always. If you get the chance to punish with stuff which aren't grab, do that instead. Sending Wolf out of his neutral position is always great with Marth.

That's good advice. The grab is just... So tempting... I gotta learn to do other stuff early on.

 

[Jackson]

Any advice for playing around the platforms on battlefield with marth? Like sharking and stuff?

 

[1PokeMastr]

Use the edit feature, it greatly improves.


EVERYTHING.

 

[Jackson]

Use the edit feature, it greatly improves.


EVERYTHING.

Oh my god, i didn't even know i posted twice in a row... sorry. I'm still a Smashboards noob sometimes.

 

[CURRY]

(Again, sorry, posting here again because Marth boards are more active than the other boards of the characters that I've tried out)

What is a good, updated matchup chart? :D

 

[1PokeMastr]

Matchup Chart V3 is as recent as it gets.

 

[Zano]

get ****ed by MK and DDD, go even with everyone else.

there's marth

 

[smashkng]

I did lose a lot to DDD until I learned the matchup pretty well. Then I learned how exploitable DDD's weaknesses are for Marth. I really feel like the DDD MU is pretty close to even. Slight disadvantage for Marth at worst TBH. MK feels like a much harder matchup to me than Dedede is, his weaknesses being a lot harder to take advantage of (like landing the grab against a good MK is hard) and his juggling and edge guarding game can be very deadly against Marth. MK's neutral game is also very strong and he has some defensive tools other characters don't which make him much harder to shield pressure.

When it comes to MU ratios, IMO Marth is like 0 against nearly every top tier, +1 against the high tiers, +1 against most of the mid tier, with a few of them like ROB and DK being close to even and pretty much +3 against the entire low tier cast other than Bowser (+2).

 

[Shaya]

Match ups like Dedede are purely based around how slow you're willing to play the match up.
The more willing you are to play the game slow enough that each game is 8 minutes, the harder that MU is for dedede.

I think MK match up is a lot easier to play.

 

[CURRY]

Isn't using Dedede as a secondary like, pretty good and covers nearly all matchups except MK (Of course)? (Assuming that you main Marth)
There are some +/- 0 matchups if you main Dedede and Marth, like Marth +/- 0 vs. ICs, Oli, Diddy, Falco, and ZSS... the rest of the negative matchups, excluding MK, are covered by Dedede.

That was based on the V3 Matchup chart, by the way :I

Also, I believe this was discussed before somewhere in those 267 pages of discussion.

Welp. Being a TL main, and I'm guessing that Ness might be my secondary (he used to be primary), I guess Marth would be... tertiary...? I don't know if that's dangerous territory, because Ness, although fun, kinda sucks against good players, and he REALLY sucks in FFA (That's what you call battles with four people, not on teams, right?) So... yeah. That's my excuse for learning a third character.

I'm still not doing anything huge with Marth yet, I'm still getting used to controlling his aerials and aerial mobility at the same time before I go on.

Also, Shaya, I didn't recognize you with your new avatar. RIP your animated avatar.

 

[Zano]

ddd is a terrible secondary for marth, you aren't going to cover anything new and lose even harder in some MUs. DDD basically exists to murder mid tiers and marth, that's about it. If you wre worried about MUs, you'd just main MK and be done with it, suddenly you don't have a weak MU.

>not recognizing Shaya with a Madoka avi

 

[Shaya]

I was just lazy/heavily dejected by the injustice of losing my animated avatar.

 

[Jackson]

Isn't using Dedede as a secondary like, pretty good and covers nearly all matchups except MK (Of course)? (Assuming that you main Marth)
There are some +/- 0 matchups if you main Dedede and Marth, like Marth +/- 0 vs. ICs, Oli, Diddy, Falco, and ZSS... the rest of the negative matchups, excluding MK, are covered by Dedede.

That was based on the V3 Matchup chart, by the way :I

Also, I believe this was discussed before somewhere in those 267 pages of discussion.

Welp. Being a TL main, and I'm guessing that Ness might be my secondary (he used to be primary), I guess Marth would be... tertiary...? I don't know if that's dangerous territory, because Ness, although fun, kinda sucks against good players, and he REALLY sucks in FFA (That's what you call battles with four people, not on teams, right?) So... yeah. That's my excuse for learning a third character.

I'm still not doing anything huge with Marth yet, I'm still getting used to controlling his aerials and aerial mobility at the same time before I go on.

Also, Shaya, I didn't recognize you with your new avatar. RIP your animated avatar.

Lol, tertiary

 

[CURRY]

Welp. Besides level 3 MK and lvl 7 Snake, are there other AIs that people think are most humanlike?

***Also what is that thing with the tipper practice again? Lvl 1 99 stock get off 30 stocks without missing a tipper or else you reset your kill counter + you self-destruct amirite

 

[1PokeMastr]

I practice with sandbags.

 

[C.J.]

Welp. Besides level 3 MK and lvl 7 Snake, are there other AIs that people think are most humanlike?

***Also what is that thing with the tipper practice again? Lvl 1 99 stock get off 30 stocks without missing a tipper or else you reset your kill counter + you self-destruct amirite

That's what I suggest for building, or breaking, any given habit.

 

[Jackson]

2 things:

1. What's the easiest way to Fsmash out out foxtrot? The timing is tough but this seems really useful.

2. How do you platform cancel like the pros? I know how to do it, but how do you do that thing where you really quickly pop on and below the platform? Do you just have to input really quickly?

Thanks.

 

[1PokeMastr]

1 - C-Stick forward or Analog + Attack if you want to charge (Or whatever your controls are)

2 - Jump, then input Down + Shield/ Grab. You may spotdodge if you miss time it.

Getting better = practice.

 

[Jackson]

1 - C-Stick forward or Analog + Attack if you want to charge (Or whatever your controls are)

2 - Jump, then input Down + Shield/ Grab. You may spotdodge if you miss time it.

Getting better = practice.

Thanks. Yeah, I'll work on it.

 

[CURRY]

Okay. I really don't know what I should do next, and I have this obvious pattern.

-I try to tipper everything, although I fail a lot of the time. I often stand RIGHT outside the dtilt range and awkwardly inch closer and closer with the pseudo-crawl (lvl 3 MK does nothing in those whole like, 5 seconds)
-punish with dash -> Dancing Blade or dash -> usmash
-OoS Dolphin whenever someone's pressuring within range
-Dtilts and fairs to rack up damage (IT STALES A TON, ESPECIALLY FAIR PLEASE HELP)
-mix up approaches, walking/running/dashing with fairs or dancing blade
-vertical gimp (I don't know what to call it) with bair when above; although most of the time I have to use uair
-Fair gimp off the side of the stage

That pretty much sums up everything, since I've been working more on my Toon than Marth recently. In the videos I watch, the either do something really technical that shows off how much they know their character, or they just do stuff that I'm like ehh okay.
So what else do I do? Besides practicing my spacing more?
Also, lol, the ledge trap? So you just stand in the range of where if an opponent were standing after a ledge attack you would be able to hit; then just dtilt again and again? Or what? Because I don't understand this and Marth is apparently very good at keeping the people grabbing the ledge on the ledge.

 

[Jackson]

After you answer currys question, I was wondering something. Is dancing blade 1 to grab a combo? Throw combos are a huge part of my game so if so this is very useful.

 

[smashkng]

Besides spacing, you try to outread and limit the options of your opponent as much as possible. By limiting your options you can greatly increase the chances of catching their options from like 1/5 to 1/2 or sometimes even 3/4, maybe even 100% in some scenarios if you have great execution (there is very little which is guaranteed in this game, but Marth is one of the better characters at covering options). Your ability to limit options will greatly improve if your spacing is great though. With great spacing you can zone out an opponent much more effectively. Of course an opponent can expect you to go for tipper aerial and just move forward and shield or anti-air you. But you yourself can also trick them into retreating more and then if they commit they'll just run into the tipper. And retreating more is usually safe. Landing Fair or Nair is nearly impossible to whiff punish. Mix up between early Fairs and FF/not FF landing Fairs. Also, not tippering is good too. Non-tipper moves are less disadvantageous on block frame wise and the lower knockback can in some case make it easier to string moves.

When you hit someone with Dtilt, you can a lot of the time run and DB them. DB is great at refreshing other moves because doing all 4 hits counts as hitting 4 times in the staling scale. That means that your other moves will refresh very quickly. Actually I'd say that Marth is one of the characters who have to worry the least about staling. As long as you're good at tippering, staling one move won't matter too much when you have a lot other safe and not-too-hard-to-land KO moves.

Ledge trapping is not only Dtilting. What Marth has an advantage over MK's ledge traps is his much better horizontal aerial speed. Jumping and then doing greatly spaced landing Fair/Nair are other amazing ledge trap moves. Keep in mind that the optimal positioning slightly differs between characters. And you have to have of tricks certain characters have to get back onstage. Like against DK or Bowser, you have to be aware of their very quick get up attack when they're below 100%. Though if you shield it they can be punished anything you want. Against Falco, you have to be aware of his side b, which can't be hit through during the 1st 1/3 of the distance, so staying a bit further in a distance where his side b is easy to punish is usually more effective. So against those jumping above their get up attacks can be good. There is nearly nothing in this game which is doing the same move over and over. By standing in a certain spot (in general, but not universally, around the center of the low BF plataforms), Marth can cover so many get up options by pure reaction. You can pressure with aerials and Dtilt, but also be prepared to react to whatever they do to get back to the stage and punish accordingly to reset the situation.

Yeah and mix up approaches. DB covers like sidesteps and other things. If you can pressure someone and force them into shield, grabs can confuse them even more. Learn to space dash grabs from a distance the opponent can't react to. That kind of spacing can work very well cause grabs while low in damage can reward with strings or very advantageous positions for Marth.

I think the tricky thing with Marth is knowing how to pick options (his moveset in whole can cover so many options though). The way he picks them is more complex than say, MK. So you have to understand pretty well when to do what. Marth has many OoS options, but depending on the situation you do DS, DB, shield grab, Fair, Uair, even Usmash or Dsmash OoS. Usmash has more horizontal range than it looks like (just like Snake's tilts).
And Jackson, not really unless the opponent is at a really high % (like 160%).

Overall, Marth has a lot of safe offensive mix ups so people will struggle dealing with Marth if you use those mix ups well. Take advantage of that, but also try to choose them based on the opponent's habits too. The better you are at adapting to your opponent habits, the more success you will have with Marth.

 

[Jackson]

Besides spacing, you try to outread and limit the options of your opponent as much as possible. By limiting your options you can greatly increase the chances of catching their options from like 1/5 to 1/2 or sometimes even 3/4, maybe even 100% in some scenarios if you have great execution (there is very little which is guaranteed in this game, but Marth is one of the better characters at covering options). Your ability to limit options will greatly improve if your spacing is great though. With great spacing you can zone out an opponent much more effectively. Of course an opponent can expect you to go for tipper aerial and just move forward and shield or anti-air you. But you yourself can also trick them into retreating more and then if they commit they'll just run into the tipper. And retreating more is usually safe. Landing Fair or Nair is nearly impossible to whiff punish. Mix up between early Fairs and FF/not FF landing Fairs. Also, not tippering is good too. Non-tipper moves are less disadvantageous on block frame wise and the lower knockback can in some case make it easier to string moves.

When you hit someone with Dtilt, you can a lot of the time run and DB them. DB is great at refreshing other moves because doing all 4 hits counts as hitting 4 times in the staling scale. That means that your other moves will refresh very quickly. Actually I'd say that Marth is one of the characters who have to worry the least about staling. As long as you're good at tippering, staling one move won't matter too much when you have a lot other safe and not-too-hard-to-land KO moves.

Ledge trapping is not only Dtilting. What Marth has an advantage over MK's ledge traps is his much better horizontal aerial speed. Jumping and then doing greatly spaced landing Fair/Nair are other amazing ledge trap moves. Keep in mind that the optimal positioning slightly differs between characters. And you have to have of tricks certain characters have to get back onstage. Like against DK or Bowser, you have to be aware of their very quick get up attack when they're below 100%. Though if you shield it they can be punished anything you want. Against Falco, you have to be aware of his side b, which can't be hit through during the 1st 1/3 of the distance, so staying a bit further in a distance where his side b is easy to punish is usually more effective. So against those jumping above their get up attacks can be good. There is nearly nothing in this game which is doing the same move over and over. By standing in a certain spot (in general, but not universally, around the center of the low BF plataforms), Marth can cover so many get up options by pure reaction. You can pressure with aerials and Dtilt, but also be prepared to react to whatever they do to get back to the stage and punish accordingly to reset the situation.

Yeah and mix up approaches. DB covers like sidesteps and other things. If you can pressure someone and force them into shield, grabs can confuse them even more. Learn to space dash grabs from a distance the opponent can't react to. That kind of spacing can work very well cause grabs while low in damage can reward with strings or very advantageous positions for Marth.

I think the tricky thing with Marth is knowing how to pick options (his moveset in whole can cover so many options though). The way he picks them is more complex than say, MK. So you have to understand pretty well when to do what. Marth has many OoS options, but depending on the situation you do DS, DB, shield grab, Fair, Uair, even Usmash or Dsmash OoS. Usmash has more horizontal range than it looks like (just like Snake's tilts).
And Jackson, not really unless the opponent is at a really high % (like 160%).

Overall, Marth has a lot of safe offensive mix ups so people will struggle dealing with Marth if you use those mix ups well. Take advantage of that, but also try to choose them based on the opponent's habits too. The better you are at adapting to your opponent habits, the more success you will have with Marth.

Thanks, very helpful info. Why exactly would it combo at high percentage though? Wouldn't even DB 1 deal knockback at that point? Also, while were at it, what's the easiest way to cancel DB1 into a grab? Just waiting a moment, crouching (like Ike's jab cancel), or something else?

 

[1PokeMastr]

DB1; wait for DB1 to finish, grab.
It functions as a mixup to catch your opponent off guard, sine their first reaction most of the time after DB1 hits them/ their shield is to hold shield.

Also Curry, read this thread and use it as a base http://smashboards.com/242138/

It's incredibly helpful in the regard of not having to rely on computers all the time.
I think you'll find it useful.

 

[Jackson]

DB1; wait for DB1 to finish, grab.
It functions as a mixup to catch your opponent off guard, sine their first reaction most of the time after DB1 hits them/ their shield is to hold shield.

Also Curry, read this thread and use it as a base http://smashboards.com/242138/

It's incredibly helpful in the regard of not having to rely on computers all the time.
I think you'll find it useful.

Nice. I'll definitely work that into my game, especially to help get in grabs at low percentages.

Also, @ 1PokeMastr , even though that link was for Curry, I wanted to see because it sounded helpful, but I got an error when following the link.

 

[1PokeMastr]

http://smashboards.com/threads/242138/

Left out a part of the link, my bad.

For the Green Shell thing, you can also build a custom stage for it, and you can practice Ps'ing with the green shells too.

Moving target + target speed (equal to move's base knockback) = perfect for spacing/ psing practice.

 

[Jackson]

http://smashboards.com/threads/242138/

Left out a part of the link, my bad.

For the Green Shell thing, you can also build a custom stage for it, and you can practice Ps'ing with the green shells too.

Moving target + target speed (equal to move's base knockback) = perfect for spacing/ psing practice.

Awesome, thanks man. I've noticed my tipping improving a lot lately, but this will definitely help more.

 

[smashkng]

Thanks, very helpful info. Why exactly would it combo at high percentage though? Wouldn't even DB 1 deal knockback at that point? Also, while were at it, what's the easiest way to cancel DB1 into a grab? Just waiting a moment, crouching (like Ike's jab cancel), or something else?

DB1 has a very small KBG. At higher percents it sends the opponent slightly higher. The opponent lands just before the hitstun ends instead of way earlier, which leads to more frames of hitstun because of the additional landing lag frames.