This is very well said
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Best / Worst Matchups for Captain Falcon?
- Thread starter Thamauturge
- Start date
CBO0tz
Smash Lord
Anybody know the inner workings of Falcon in a Vs. Pit matchup?
Nope. Nobody does it vs Armada or Zero, so it's likely we don't know how it would go. I'd be inclined to say it's roughly even, with a small edge for Pit on most stages and evenish/very slight Falcon favor on the other.
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
I've completely changed my mind on the Mario matchup, I now think it's pretty even, or maybe even in Falcon's favor at a high level.
Shinryuenjin
Smash Cadet
I do fine against Mario. Playing around the fireballs and fsmash spacing is key.
I think mario is slightly disadvantageous for C. Falc. atm for reasons similar to why Falco is a bad matchup for Falcon. Fireballs = lasers which highly restrict movement and both have dairs and nairs that break up Falcon's juggles and approaches. Both have strong smash attacks that stuff approaches. Both can edgeguard Falcon blindfolded. And both can juggle Falcon just as effectively as Falcon juggles them. Funny thing is Mario's grab -> kill move is even more guaranteed than Falcon's grab -> kill move at times.
Also on the fireballs situation. If you see a fireball coming towards you it's already too late. Run away whether that be onto the platforms or just towards the edge. Nairing a fireball that's already out will just get you hit by the follow up fireball or the followup Fsmash. It's also difficult to nair towards Mario's fireball because it travels at a decent speed and may hit you before the nair comes out. Nairing through fireballs only works if you initiate the move around the same time the mario initiates the fireball.
Also on the fireballs situation. If you see a fireball coming towards you it's already too late. Run away whether that be onto the platforms or just towards the edge. Nairing a fireball that's already out will just get you hit by the follow up fireball or the followup Fsmash. It's also difficult to nair towards Mario's fireball because it travels at a decent speed and may hit you before the nair comes out. Nairing through fireballs only works if you initiate the move around the same time the mario initiates the fireball.
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TheKmanOfSmash
Smash Ace
I don't think most of this is true at all. Mario shouldn't be able to use nair or dair to get out of combos executed correctly. Neither should Falco. Both are not as floaty as Luigi, which is the reason why I made that statement. However, when you're comboing Mario and you're not confident in the in the timing window of your combos but you think the Mario will nair/dair out, drop the combo intentionally to wait for Mario to do the nair/dair, punish on reaction and continue the combo.
Also, Mario's fireballs are significantly slower compared to Falco's lasers and the hurtbox of the fireball is bigger than what the laser's would be if laser didn't have transcendent priority. You can definitely nair the first fireball on reaction, easily. If you time it right, you can even get the 2nd fireball with the 2nd hit or nair or the 2nd hit of nair will end up hitting Mario. Now ofc, it's not a fool-proof approach, but I feel as if you're severely underestimating the advantage being able to nair fireballs gives to Falcon.
And Mario grab --> kill confirms could be more or less better than Falcon's, depending on a number of ways you look at it. But Falcon has the easier time getting the grab because of his mobility and his ability to make fireballs not as effective in the MU (perhaps Mario has the easier time getting the grab on FD, which I think is his best stage in the MU because of no platforms for Falcon to escape to, but then just ban FD). So Falcon would be converting kill moves off of throws more frequently than Mario, even if Mario's kills off of throws are better.
Where Mario definitely succeeds over Falcon is the edgeguard game, like you said. Though Falcon has some options, a smart Mario can cover them all with less effort than Falcon would have to on Mario. But Falcon can still edgeguard Mario, he just has to make harder and riskier commitments.
Idk but I play Mario quite often and it always seems that Nairing fireballs on reaction is very risky and I never get a consistent result. I'll try to explain why. If you are at close-mid range to the mario and the fireball is already out, don't nair towards mario, the fireball WILL hit you before the nair comes out, the jump squat and the startup of the nair is not fast enough. If you try to nair away from mario it might work but then you are giving him stage control, and he could follow up with a long range Fsmash given correct spacing.
At long range distance, defensive nairing is more safe as Mario can't reach you and punish you for nairing fireballs. Aggressive nairing at this point may work but is risky because even though you can nair through the fireballs you won't reach Mario until late into the move by then Mario can already maneuver himself outside of nair range or shield and respond accordingly.
That's generally how my matches with Mario goes and I find myself opting to just avoid the fireballs rather than nariing through them as they aren't consistent enough for me.
Edit: Also when I mean breaking out of combos with nair/dair I meant more like juggles and not 100% guaranteed combos within hitstun. I know Falco may not be the best example of this but to put it simply, if Falcon tries to UpAir or neutral against Mario's dair he will lose that battle. Also, at 0% I'm pretty sure Falcon can't grab -> juggle mario as the hitstun isn't long enough so I generally have to start going for regrab mixups and whatnot. Mario is actually kinda floaty and doesn't always stay within Falcon's hitstun long enough for followups.
At long range distance, defensive nairing is more safe as Mario can't reach you and punish you for nairing fireballs. Aggressive nairing at this point may work but is risky because even though you can nair through the fireballs you won't reach Mario until late into the move by then Mario can already maneuver himself outside of nair range or shield and respond accordingly.
That's generally how my matches with Mario goes and I find myself opting to just avoid the fireballs rather than nariing through them as they aren't consistent enough for me.
Edit: Also when I mean breaking out of combos with nair/dair I meant more like juggles and not 100% guaranteed combos within hitstun. I know Falco may not be the best example of this but to put it simply, if Falcon tries to UpAir or neutral against Mario's dair he will lose that battle. Also, at 0% I'm pretty sure Falcon can't grab -> juggle mario as the hitstun isn't long enough so I generally have to start going for regrab mixups and whatnot. Mario is actually kinda floaty and doesn't always stay within Falcon's hitstun long enough for followups.
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Shinryuenjin
Smash Cadet
Mario v. Falcon is one of my favorite match-ups. I just don't feel like I struggle with him and I play a lot of Mario's that have plenty of tech skill. Play around the fireballs is really the best advice I can give. Dish out your bread n butter stuff while mixing in more Uairs than you're used to off the map, as the cape will turn you around and you'll still hit him with the Uair a lot of the time.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I do recognize your concerns as being very valid. However there always has to be a first MU chart, and while it may not be very accurate, it will evolve over time. I'm basing mine off of professional matches between the characters, a list of pros and cons in each MU, and the differing strategies that people have said worked or haven't worked in their experience. My list is by no means 100% accurate, and it will see changes in the future: but it's something that I'm using for my own use.
What do you guys do when Squirtle abuses a combination of crouching, crawling, WDing, and withdraw to keep himself below the range of jab, grab, and SH nair (unless you delay that move a ton) while also covering lots of space really quickly? I find squirtle more annoying to deal with than Kirby and MK because while they're small, they can't both reduce their size and approach you with a lot of speed like Squirtle can. I'm thinking what I literally have to do is just camp all over the place (by that, I mean just stay mobile and keep evading his approach using the whole stage) and fish for low reaching stuff like dair and bair, but a direct way to counter his approach if I make the hard read would be awesome.
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
You do have to camp and control space for the most part against Squirtle, when you feel like going for hard reads, Dair is your best bet, and if you have a REALLY hard read at high percents, then Knee is also good.
Squirtle has too many good ways to beat generic Falcon approaches, so just stay patient, Falcon's combo game on Squirtle is very strong, so it's very worth the wait, just gotta have your punish game consistent or all that patience goes to waste.
What are people's thoughts on Falcon's matchup with Roy? It's weird but I personally have recently lost to a couple of Roys where I felt like I just wasn't playing correctly or something. I tried to play it like the Marth matchup but something seemed off. I'm not sure if it was my DI but I was also getting comboed into sweetspotted Fsmash like nothing else which sends me far enough to get edgeguarded by another Fsmash or the neutral B. I can combo Roy pretty well so my punish game is solid but any hints on neutral game and maybe stage picks would be nice.
Edit: For the neutral game against Roy a couple of problematic Roy moves for me were dtilt and neutral A. Dtilt has great CC armor and sets up for Upair strings > Fsmash. Neutral A is a great defense and offensive zoning tool that lasts forever and I feel Falcon just has to respect.
Double Edit: whoops meant neutral air not neutral A
Edit: For the neutral game against Roy a couple of problematic Roy moves for me were dtilt and neutral A. Dtilt has great CC armor and sets up for Upair strings > Fsmash. Neutral A is a great defense and offensive zoning tool that lasts forever and I feel Falcon just has to respect.
Double Edit: whoops meant neutral air not neutral A
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Falcon probably loses or barely goes even with Roy. I'd ask what Sethlon thinks about it. The Neutral B buffs are very strong for Roy to get quick gimps or secure the edgeguard vs Falcon, and onstage feels pretty even for both characters. Roy is a bad combo of weight/height/FF for getting absolutely demolished, and Falcon is bad at escaping from Roy once hit.
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KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I brought a friend who plays kirby to a local weekly yesterday and he fought two of our best falcons (beat one, lost to the other).
both falcons said that that matchup is super scary. what all does kirby have that makes it so hard? they were saying that if kirby got falcon in the air it was free for kirby, and I suppose kirby is hard for falcon to grab, but what makes them so scared of it?
also, hows the tink mu?
both falcons said that that matchup is super scary. what all does kirby have that makes it so hard? they were saying that if kirby got falcon in the air it was free for kirby, and I suppose kirby is hard for falcon to grab, but what makes them so scared of it?
also, hows the tink mu?
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In my experience with Tink; Falcon is perfect weight for grab, down throw, jab reset, grab
He can do this with little problems. As well Falcon has a tough time getting through boomerangs, never mind constant bombs being tossed in his direction. Edge guarding is the same as always, lots of options to defeat falcon's limited recovery moveset. Falcon can get some good combos and chain grabs off to have me feel its a very even matchup.
I do feel this matchup is in Tinks favour (40-60) as his weight, attack speed, great recovery options, and supreme spacing moveset put falcon in an awkward position.
Campier neutral but harder punishment than the Falcon vs Marth MU.
Crouching and aerials that either allow Kirby to outprioritize and/or have an advantage when trading.
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DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
Could someone give me some info on Zelda vs. Falcon?
From what I know it is stacked in Zelda's favor: She has to run via Teledashing a lot, but once she gets a combo on Falcon it seems like death to me.
From what I know it is stacked in Zelda's favor: She has to run via Teledashing a lot, but once she gets a combo on Falcon it seems like death to me.
Steel Banana
Smash Cadet
Zelda v Falcon is easily in Falcon's favor. Only attack when its 100% guaranteed and just bait everything out of the Zelda. Zelda can definitely combo Falcon to death, but Falcon can do the same to Zelda just as easily. Don't overextend your combos and don't become impatient. Zelda can almost never trap you, since you can run circles around her and your knee can ensure that she doesn't even get the chance to lay Din's fire. When she does, though, just use nair to kill them.
At low percents, get 1 or 2 hits in, then fake a 3rd hit with some stylish dash dancing to bait an attack out of the Zelda, then go for the 3rd hit. At mid percents, dthrow knee for the kill. At high percents, you're doing something wrong, lol
At low percents, get 1 or 2 hits in, then fake a 3rd hit with some stylish dash dancing to bait an attack out of the Zelda, then go for the 3rd hit. At mid percents, dthrow knee for the kill. At high percents, you're doing something wrong, lol
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I can see what you're talking about. However should the Zelda change up her game (not going for dins) by opting for the Telegame OoS or utilizing LC Nayru's: it doesn't seem like Falcon can do much. Especially because of Zelda's Nayru's Escape (angled Love Jump) or the Diamond Dive, they just seem to prevent Falcon from getting any combos. Especially because Zelda's Telegame really messes up Falcon's movement.Zelda v Falcon is easily in Falcon's favor. Only attack when its 100% guaranteed and just bait everything out of the Zelda. Zelda can definitely combo Falcon to death, but Falcon can do the same to Zelda just as easily. Don't overextend your combos and don't become impatient. Zelda can almost never trap you, since you can run circles around her and your knee can ensure that she doesn't even get the chance to lay Din's fire. When she does, though, just use nair to kill them.
At low percents, get 1 or 2 hits in, then fake a 3rd hit with some stylish dash dancing to bait an attack out of the Zelda, then go for the 3rd hit. At mid percents, dthrow knee for the kill. At high percents, you're doing something wrong, lol
Steel Banana
Smash Cadet
If they're doing anything OoS, then you attacked them at the wrong time, but it happens. In this case, the only move you should shield pressure with is nair and if you space it well, Zelda shouldn't be able to punish with upB or neutralB. If they're doing LC Nayru's, don't try to punish it, just keep your distance and continue being patient.
I've never had too much trouble with teleporting Zeldas, since they are either:
1. highly punishable if they don't cancel it.
2. interceptable if they do
Basically your whole goal is to get a grab. Grabs (or a non-crouch-cancelled gentleman) = guaranteed combos that Zelda can't escape, even with the nayru shenanigans. Combos against Zelda aren't going to be like combos against other characters, since she doesn't stay in hitstun long and can fair/bair you if you misjudge even a little bit. Combos will be very short and the goal is to keep her above you.
I've never had too much trouble with teleporting Zeldas, since they are either:
1. highly punishable if they don't cancel it.
2. interceptable if they do
Basically your whole goal is to get a grab. Grabs (or a non-crouch-cancelled gentleman) = guaranteed combos that Zelda can't escape, even with the nayru shenanigans. Combos against Zelda aren't going to be like combos against other characters, since she doesn't stay in hitstun long and can fair/bair you if you misjudge even a little bit. Combos will be very short and the goal is to keep her above you.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
What about the Diamond Dive? Zelda gets invulnerability and travels at a sharp angle (and it could be either direction) downwards. Although it could still be a new enough technique that you haven't fought people who use it.
DoorKnob
Smash Rookie
Any advice vs sonic. I seriously feel like he's so troll.
DoorKnob
Smash Rookie
I could also just be bad at the match up.
leekslap
Smash Ace
What about Falcon VS Mewtwo? I like to reserve Falcon for the Mario and Mewtwo MUs and wanna know if I'm on the right track. I've spent so much time fighting Marios, my powershields are godly sometimes, and his speed helps maneeuver around them too along with being known for bodying floaties in general. Emukiller said Falcon would be a hard MU for Mewtwo. I just wanna know his best MUs in general. If he doesn't have a good MU against both Mario and M2, which character would?
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
I feel like Falcon is at best only a counter to super campy Mewtwos, and is most likely the underdog by a good bit in general, due to being vastly outranged and prioritized, getting juggled extremely hard, getting gimped hard, they can easily beat Nair approaches with CC down-tilts, and Mewtwo is just a better character in general. Falcon can use Nairs to stop a M2's teleport approaches, you can beat CC with Dairs, You combo M2 quite well, and D-Throw Knee is a guaranteed kill around 70%.
Here's a great example of me playing the matchup at a very high level, you can see the full force of many of M2's strengths in this set, how I get punished for doing various things, and you also get to see how Falcon is capable of beating M2 stuff. It was my first time playing the matchup at anywhere near this level, so I learned a lot here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F-Z0uF1xQo
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leekslap
Smash Ace
Well I can always use Meta Knight. What about Mario?
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
I think it's very even or maybe slightly in Falcon's favor, I don't currently have time to go more into detail, but I'll further elaborate later if you like.
leekslap
Smash Ace
Thank you! I thought I was going crazy theory crafting over this MU. No you don't have to elaborate but thanks anyway!
Equal
Smash Apprentice
So I was playing against a decent Ike today, I don't really play PM but one thing I noticed is most people have trouble edgeguarding him. But I think moonwalking over his recovery and then punishing with a knee/uair might actually be really good. The best way to punish Ike's Up B is from behind.
If Ike goes for the sweetspot with his Up B all you have to do is moonwalk and hit him out of it before he grabs the ledge (which does actually take some time) You can go for a tight timing and not waste your double jump, or you can probably moonwalk off preemptively, wait for the up B then double jump and hit him into/under the stage.
It's sort of risky but if you land a hit you have a good chance at killing them at pretty low percents because if they hit the side of the stage and don't tech they're gonna be done for.
The spacing is actually pretty simple, I just moonwalk jump offstage, reverse knee right through where you grab the ledge. I have experimented too much with moonwalk off > double jump aerials but I might try it the next time I play the guy.
If Ike goes for the sweetspot with his Up B all you have to do is moonwalk and hit him out of it before he grabs the ledge (which does actually take some time) You can go for a tight timing and not waste your double jump, or you can probably moonwalk off preemptively, wait for the up B then double jump and hit him into/under the stage.
It's sort of risky but if you land a hit you have a good chance at killing them at pretty low percents because if they hit the side of the stage and don't tech they're gonna be done for.
The spacing is actually pretty simple, I just moonwalk jump offstage, reverse knee right through where you grab the ledge. I have experimented too much with moonwalk off > double jump aerials but I might try it the next time I play the guy.
You can regular knee or stomp him out of his recovery. I would do it to a buddy of mine back in the old 2.1 days where Ike's Upb covered him better than it does atm
Knee in general is pretty reliable against him, since you can stuff a lot of his Side B attempts with knee and weak knee offstage.
Knee in general is pretty reliable against him, since you can stuff a lot of his Side B attempts with knee and weak knee offstage.
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I think falcons MU against Ike is really good, considering Ikes size, weight, and fall speed. He feels like fighting Marth, and a lot of the bread and butter combos that work on Marth, also work against Ike. Grabbing an Ike as falcon 9/10 times means death for the Ike
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Runicwings
Smash Apprentice
I have a ton of experience with the 3.02 Charizard aka Nairplane MU and on a personal level it was evenish Falcs Disadvantage due to how free the edge guard WAS for Zard. I haven't tested out the MU 3.5 yet but with Zards Nair Nerfed I can only see it helping the Falc though. Here's a breakdown.
In Neutral Falcon has Decent Approach with Nair and Zards Size. If the zard DIs bad you can Chain DThrow at early percents or U throw at for Full Hop Double U air. At 40-50 you can set up nice D throw combo strings(D throw>Nair>Upair pops them up>Jump>Knee) usually due to Falcons Horizontal Combo game Zards off ledge near the blast zone at like 65% and the Uair sets up for a nice Jump Knee follow up. Most grabs can lead to a nice combo even if Zard can jump out due to Falcons U air reach. Grabs really are the best way to open a zard up. I enjoy doing Running Sheild Approaches and if they catch on I will go aggro nair into jab grabs.
Even if the Zard DI's Nairs and Grabs Away and down you can punish this DI off ledge with a Dair instead of a Knee. Even Gentlemen Combos DIed well will yield a Dair off Ledge vs a Knee. On Stage if they DI down and Away you set up for Tech Chases.
The Issues Falcon face are Zards Jab wing attack is an amazing Anti Air so mix your approaches with Grabs. And Zard can Combo Heavy set characters with stupidly free tech chases and platform juggles. Obviously ledgeguards are free for zard BUT you might be able to ledge tech given the Nair Nerf and a stage pick can make the difference on recovery gimps.
Stage wise I would recommend picking stages with moving platforms, or platforms Falcon can reach. This helps mix his Recovery a little bit. Smashville, New Norfair, and Wario Ware has platforms that can aid Falcons Recovery and two of them are small enough for early kills and doesn't really cut into Falcons Recovery distance while Cutting Zards Recovery distance short.
FD is also good as it limits Zards Juggle Options and You have The Brawl Randal helping in Yoshi's story. Overall even with the 3 stage bans you will still have a decent place to take Nairzard.
Combine smart combo play with good stage bans/picks you have the potential of playing on YOUR Turf no matter what giving Falcon a TINY edge.
In Neutral Falcon has Decent Approach with Nair and Zards Size. If the zard DIs bad you can Chain DThrow at early percents or U throw at for Full Hop Double U air. At 40-50 you can set up nice D throw combo strings(D throw>Nair>Upair pops them up>Jump>Knee) usually due to Falcons Horizontal Combo game Zards off ledge near the blast zone at like 65% and the Uair sets up for a nice Jump Knee follow up. Most grabs can lead to a nice combo even if Zard can jump out due to Falcons U air reach. Grabs really are the best way to open a zard up. I enjoy doing Running Sheild Approaches and if they catch on I will go aggro nair into jab grabs.
Even if the Zard DI's Nairs and Grabs Away and down you can punish this DI off ledge with a Dair instead of a Knee. Even Gentlemen Combos DIed well will yield a Dair off Ledge vs a Knee. On Stage if they DI down and Away you set up for Tech Chases.
The Issues Falcon face are Zards Jab wing attack is an amazing Anti Air so mix your approaches with Grabs. And Zard can Combo Heavy set characters with stupidly free tech chases and platform juggles. Obviously ledgeguards are free for zard BUT you might be able to ledge tech given the Nair Nerf and a stage pick can make the difference on recovery gimps.
Stage wise I would recommend picking stages with moving platforms, or platforms Falcon can reach. This helps mix his Recovery a little bit. Smashville, New Norfair, and Wario Ware has platforms that can aid Falcons Recovery and two of them are small enough for early kills and doesn't really cut into Falcons Recovery distance while Cutting Zards Recovery distance short.
FD is also good as it limits Zards Juggle Options and You have The Brawl Randal helping in Yoshi's story. Overall even with the 3 stage bans you will still have a decent place to take Nairzard.
Combine smart combo play with good stage bans/picks you have the potential of playing on YOUR Turf no matter what giving Falcon a TINY edge.
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lordhelmet
Smash Master
Sonic is a big ball of attacks with horrible hitboxes. Bait approaches, punish with jab or an aerial. Spacing and timing is very important against Sonic. Don't let him get in. He's easy combo food. I think Falcon beats Sonic slightly.
eskimoparade
Smash Apprentice
ive found lucas to be extremely hard. he is like a floatier falco in many regards, only saving grace in combos against marth work on him.
actually id really like some matchup advice against kiby. that **** is rough.
actually id really like some matchup advice against kiby. that **** is rough.
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eskimoparade
Smash Apprentice
id still like some advice against kirby, im getting ok at comboing him at certain percents and finding spikes but i still feel like just getting a pocket marth to deal with it.
