Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[DanGR]

Marth's shield breaker allows him to have a great appraoch that can abuse DDD's defensive game. As D3 has the ftilt, Marth has the shield breaker. DDD has to rely on Chain throws for racking up damage when marth's aerials outrange DDD's grab range. Also DDD's multijumps are small and predictable, and marth's bair edgeguards can stop DDD from getting back to the stage(so DDD gets easily KO'ed at fairly high %(80-100%) by marth's edgegame), but when DDD's b-up is used, thats when marth has to back off. DDD can camp with the waddle dees, yet once again the shield breaker or SHFF fairs or nairs gobble them in priority. I see the match 6:4 for marth, someone please tell why this match is even

I've not much experience in this matchup, but I can no doubt say that shieldbreaker is a horrible approach option against any grounded character. It's very punishable and should used as often as Zelda's nayru's love to punish rolling and such. upb is very gimpable and DDD's bair is horridly hard to beat off stage. Just my two cents.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sheild breaker has ridic range though

 

[DanGR]

sheild breaker has ridic range though

how's that matter? so does DDD's fsmash. Does that make it a good approach?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Shield breaker as better speed and priority than DDD fSmash and it does far better Vs. shields.

Also, its range when used in midair is INCREDIBLY HUGE... but that seems kinda situational and definitely wouldn't be a standard method of approach.

 

[DanGR]

Shield breaker as better speed and priority than DDD fSmash and it does far better Vs. shields.

Also, its range when used in midair is INCREDIBLY HUGE... but that seems kinda situational and definitely wouldn't be a standard method of approach.

The only point I'm trying to make is that it's very punishable, in the same way a fair from GaW, fair from DK, fair from ike, etc. are very punishable if they don't land the hit either. Against marth, you'll be sidestepping more than usual anyways. It doesn't have enough speed and range to (imo) to make up for its lag. It's better used to punish someone when you think they'll shield or somethin. Plus it doesn't break the entire shield on some of the larger character.(if I remember correctly)

 

[Emblem Lord]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166145

Shieldbreaker rocks your nuts off.

 

[DMG]

Marth vs Dedede is pretty even for a few reasons:

Marth and Dedede have about the same range on most attacks. Marth combo's better but Dedede has higher knockback and damage on most attacks. Dedede does have projectiles but they are usually not that big of a threat. They both have to worry about getting shield grabbed but more so for Marth because of Dedede's CG and because Dedede has a longer grab range. Both of them can usually be edgeguarded pretty well but it's harder for Marth to effectively edgeguard Dedede sometimes.

I think the main focus on the match is that Marth has to watch out for grabs and has to work on getting back to the stage safely while Dedede has to worry about combos and devastating tipper attacks.

 

[Kasai]

"Aura spheres aren't very effective and its very easy to get in his comfort zone. Lucario has the best side dodge in the game, but Wario has the best air mobility. So really, changing your mind about where to go midair and still attacking a rolling Lucario, isn't hard. Not a huge advantage though." That's an excerpt from the Wario guide that I think covers the Spheres and rolling.


Lucario has the dair, which can stop a lot of Wario's combos, but Wario could just bait a dair and counter it after it is done. Edgeguarding is about the same for both characters but I would say it is easier for Wario since Lucario's recovery is easier to gimp. I think that if Wario can kill Lucario at a reasonable % then Wario has the advantage. If Wario let's Lucario live up to a high %/can't land a killing blow on him, then Lucario has the advantage.


Kirby has some grab combos, pretty decent range and priority on a few moves, and a pretty solid recovery. Other than that, he really doesn't have many strong points. He is light, which makes killing pretty easy for Wario. His small size doesn't affect Wario's ability to hit him too much. Although his recovery is pretty decent, he can still be gimped by Wario while Kirby usually won't be able to gimp Wario. Kirby can have a rough time with landing a kill move on Wario and Wario's heavy weight doesn't help Kirby there either. I don't think that Wario dominates Kirby or anything but he does have the advantage IMO.

Lucario
A lot of people seem to overplay the fact that lucario's upB does no damage. Now, I will admit that in some situations it has killed me but I honestly can count on one hand the times that the grabbing was the difference between living any dying. The fact that you can curve it so precisely really allows you to escape many situations where one might thing that an edge hog is death. Now about the actual battle, I think that lucario's range allows him to control the battle pretty decently. His Fsmash has god range and an awesome lingering hitbox. His ftilt is pretty much safe on shield and can space very well for some of his other attacks. On heavy characters he can chain grab to fairly high %s and can finish it with a leadup into an aerial combo. Now you say that lucario is easy to gimp but at the same time, he is able to gimp characters very well due to his fast, long range fairs than he can chain very well. I would say that they are even because, at the same time of all of this, wario can be a pain to KO due to his hard to gimp recovery as well as his weight.

Kirby
The thing that most people seem to underestimate about kirby is his killing power, and, from that, his ability to lead into kill moves quite easily. His Fsmash kills characters very early, and there are many ways that he can lead into it. I'll list a few...
dair to fsmash (works up until 160+%)
dtilt to fsmash (works up to the 400+%s, not that anyone would ever get that high anyway)

Now in addition to these kill moves, kirby is a character who is easily able to rack up a lot of damage with not only grab combos but with nice aerial control. Basically, if you get grabbed and are below 50%, you will get up to 50%, especially if you are a heavy character. Also, most of these combos end in a move that hits the person off the edge, which leads to easy gimps. Now I still think that this match up is even because Kirby does die early.

 

[StripesOrBars]

LOL @ somebody comparing DDD's Fsmash with Marth's shield breaker.

 

[hizzlum]

I've not much experience in this matchup, but I can no doubt say that shieldbreaker is a horrible approach option against any grounded character. It's very punishable

You obviously do not kow uch about marth's metagame in brawl saying that sheild breaker is a bad approach. Insane range and decent power on the uncharged attack that wills at most times get your opponent to the ledge where marth thrives in this game.

About the Marth vs. DDD: But doesent marth quickness overwhlem a slow character like DDD? With fox trot smashes and SHFF aerials being barraged by marth Dosent DDD have a problem grabing against a great spacing character? And why are they equal on the edge? Marth has more versatile and quick aerial options(which don't lack much power and are easy KO's when tippers happen). The only aerials DDD has that prove to be somewhat effective at edgeguarding are the FOP bairs, the nair, and although slow, the fair. I just don't see how a slow CG'er with a good bair can put up a good fight against a speedy and somewhat powerful aerialist.

 

[DMG]

Lucario
A lot of people seem to overplay the fact that lucario's upB does no damage. Now, I will admit that in some situations it has killed me but I honestly can count on one hand the times that the grabbing was the difference between living any dying. The fact that you can curve it so precisely really allows you to escape many situations where one might thing that an edge hog is death. Now about the actual battle, I think that lucario's range allows him to control the battle pretty decently. His Fsmash has god range and an awesome lingering hitbox. His ftilt is pretty much safe on shield and can space very well for some of his other attacks. On heavy characters he can chain grab to fairly high %s and can finish it with a leadup into an aerial combo. Now you say that lucario is easy to gimp but at the same time, he is able to gimp characters very well due to his fast, long range fairs than he can chain very well. I would say that they are even because, at the same time of all of this, wario can be a pain to KO due to his hard to gimp recovery as well as his weight.

I wasn't really referring to how Lucario's Upb doesn't have a hitbox, I meant he is easier to edgeguard for a number of reasons, like how long it takes for him to actually move in a direction or how he can be punished pretty bad for landing on the stage. If his Upb was a bit faster for him to actually move and had less lag when landing, then I would agree that it would be a lot harder to edgeguard him. Lucario's range is pretty good for most attacks, however there is usually either a lot of startup or ending lag with his moves. Wario can airdodge through every one of his smashes and punish Lucario. Lucario also has problems with reliably killing people if he is anywhere below 100% or so, without gimping them of course. Wario's weight, along with his recovery and dodging abilities, makes it hard for Lucario to not only land a kill move but for the kill move to actually kill Wario. Like I said before, if Wario can kill Lucario at a reasonable percent (100% to 110% maybe) then Wario shouldn't have too much trouble. If he lets Lucario live with a lot of damage (more than 130%), then Wario can have some problems. Wario can usually kill Lucario at a reasonable percent however, which is why I think he should have the advantage.

Kirby
The thing that most people seem to underestimate about Kirby is his killing power, and, from that, his ability to lead into kill moves quite easily. His Fsmash kills characters very early, and there are many ways that he can lead into it. I'll list a few...
dair to fsmash (works up until 160+%)
dtilt to fsmash (works up to the 400+%s, not that anyone would ever get that high anyway)

Now in addition to these kill moves, Kirby is a character who is easily able to rack up a lot of damage with not only grab combos but with nice aerial control. Basically, if you get grabbed and are below 50%, you will get up to 50%, especially if you are a heavy character. Also, most of these combos end in a move that hits the person off the edge, which leads to easy gimps. Now I still think that this match up is even because Kirby does die early.

I frequently play against a very good Kirby player that lives in my city and he has a very hard time killing me. I know first hand how powerful his Fsmash is, I know about it's deceptively good range and priority, and I know how Kirby can go about and use it. I also know that Fsmash it not that easy to hit with and I can usually avoid it unless I have no jumps left and my only choice is to airdodge to the ground and hope he misses. I know about his grab combo's and I can actually avoid the devastating ones with DI and good timing of Airdodge and/or shielding when I'm caught on the ground. I know that Kirby DOES NOT have good aerial control. He has better than average range and priority in the air but he certainly cannot coordinate well enough in the air to say that he has good aerial control. Maybe if he moved faster horizontally in the air but since he does not then I wouldn't really say that he has good aerial control.

Basically, once you know Kirby's strengths and weaknesses (along with his little tricks), he becomes an easy fight. Wario kills Kirby at low % and Kirby kills Wario at pretty average %'s considering he's a heavy character. Wario has more kill moves, a better edgeguarding game, and an easier time landing a finishing blow than Kirby. Kirby's main kill move is Fsmash and even sometimes the hammer. They are a lot easier to avoid for Wario than the kill moves Kirby has to look out for from Wario. So it should be safe to say that Wario has the advantage here.

 

[Brahma]

Another DK option I forgot to mention is Bair, land behind UpB. Ungrabbable, unshieldable (at least fully), undodgeable, and it kills all pikmin. At low % it easily racks 15-20% on Oli.

With DK, he has enough options out of SH Bair to keep Oli guessing between shielding, grabbing, and spot dodging. If Oli guesses right, he can land DK with 20-40% correct? If DK guesses right, he can do anywhere from 15-30%, and puts Oli in the air where he can take advantage. All DK needs is to rack up 70% or so to kill. Olimar needs to rack up at least 100%, if not more to effectively kill DK. (What are Oli's kill %'s on Upsmash/Fsmash/ Bthrow btw? I can't keep track of the different stats for each color pikmin). As such, on average these exchanges start working slightly DK's favor, as he needs to rack less damage to KO.

Also, keep in mind SH Bair isn't his only approach for Olimar, but I do believe it to be his best. DK can always empty SH, or Bair then land, and roll behind Oli and punish a shield grab/fsmash, or Bair, airdodge. In the event that DK gets hit with a pikmin after the initial Bair, he can simply DJ away and Bair to clear the pikmin. It doesn't do much to press his offense, but it lets him escape with only a few % damage and resets the stage.

In my mind, I see any moves not directed at olimar as advantageous for him. The slightest lag on his opponent's moves set them up for combos, and KO's. This is a very important aspect to Olimar's play-capitalizing on moves not directed at olimar. The range on his projectile, and his grab allows him to punish correctly.

This is true. The usage of SH Bair is only for spacing purposes. In the unlikely event of Oli jumping and trying Fair, he gets outranged by Bair. It also serves as a sort of "timer" for me, so I can judge my spacing and distance on a followup hit. There isn't much Oli can do against a SHBair other than toss a pikmin onto DK. Anything more than one pikmin and Oli eats another Bair in the face. One pikmin will only rack up maybe 5-10% before DK is able to remove them. Also after the initial Bair, DK can always airdodge, land and roll/shield as well to avoid attacks.

This is all assuming olimar doesn't keep his spacing properly and DK closes in properly? If so, then yes, DK should be able to kill olimar decently. If not, Olimar is quicker and can maneuver around the bigger characters in brawl easily and continue to throw pikmen to setup for even more damage if killed while not attacking olimar. This is, if olimar can space properly though. I don't see DK as being able to close in on characters that partly rely on their range game to beat bigger characters. He can force the issue on some select characters without a great range game like olimar has, but overall(imo) I don't think DK can take it. He has his approaches and all, but many of them are avoidable by simple dodges and roll dodges.(ex. being bair, sideb-can be avoided by shield, spotdodge; bair, jab-avoided by rolling.)

In reality, if a grounded olimar stays grounded and doesn't move very often, the DK will most certainly win, as will most character. The combination of his pikmen throw, shield grabbing, grab range of his pikmen, range and speed on smashes, and his great aerial game, and his VERY underrated approach game(to mix it up) is enough to give olimar the advantage in this matchup, i feel.

Most olimars will stay grounded. They'll also throw pikmen and shieldgrab like you mentioned. Olimar players also SHfairs more than people realize. It has great priority and makes a GREAT approach for those times when olimar is near the edge. The general consensus around the boards is that all olimar does is camp and throw pikmen and wait for people to come get him. They attack, either successfully or get shieldgrabbed. It's very bad to assume olimar players will continue to do this. Did you know that everytime you hit the pikmen, you refresh your moves? This should be enough to get every olimar main to throw pikmen and follow up by either grabbing, fairing, throwing more pikmen, fsmash, or even tilts(occasionally if they space wrong) Not just let olimar's opponent keep trying to fend them off.(unless the pikmen can get enough damage to make it worthwhile. It forces olimar players to attack after throwing. Your job, when fighting olimar, is to somehow attack olimar as he and his pikmen attack you. This is what it all boils down to. This is just about the only variety that olimar players get: choosing how and when to either approach and evade attacks while throwing pikmen to taunt their opponent.

How exactly does Olimar run away and maintain spacing though? If you stick to ground run, DK can always just follow with Bair and keep the same approach. You have to either stop or jump to be able to pikmin toss, which is where DK Bair will catch you. You can't rely on SH Fair either because again, it is outranged by DK Bair, or can be blocked, then punished with Utilt. DK can also stay on the ground and follow behind if Oli runs as well. It gets tricky because Oli can pivot grab, but DownB outranges grab, you have to stop/jump to toss pikmin, which gives DK time to turnaround Bair, or run under him and Utilt/Dsmash. If you stop and do Dsmash/Fsmash DK can shield, jump over with Nair/SideB, or Punch superarmor through it. UpB also has invincible frames on the startup, which can eat the hit, then beat out a shield or spotdodge from Olimar.

Also, I play DK to capitalize on shielding and roll/spotdodge. DownB pressures shield and beats a spotdodge/roll. UpB will eat shield stab and lasts long enough to catch a roll/dodge.

Another thing I'd like to point out is olimar's textbook combos v large character. The most basic being the first one. These are much easier to carry out on the larger characters b/c their hitboxes are easier to hit with the following.:

dthrow, upair or fair

grab,dthrow, fair, ff,grab,dthrow,ff, hyphen smash, upair, upb(low percentage to rack damage. after the second ff, it's possible to DI out of it, but that invites another grab dthrow, fair or upair combo.

uptilt, upair, upb(this is great for juggling large characters. It's one of olimar's many moves that keep his opponent airborne.)

nair, upair or fair, upb(depending on DI)

dtilt,dtilt,upair(it's basically only at low percentages, but dtilt can always be used until about 100%? to combo into an upair.

(Could you list damage estimates on these for me?)

Oli does have good combos on DK. DK doesn't have so many combos, but he has a lot of setups and 50/50s.

Utilt at low % (0-20ish) leads to another Utilt for 15-20%. After this you have a solid mixup game. You can go for another Utilt, which can be airdodged, but if they airdodge you can slightly charge a Dsmash, set up SideB, DownB, or UpB, dealing anywhere from 10-25% damage. From 0% if you guess right here between airdodge or no airdodge, you've already got Olimar halfway to where he needs to be to KO'd.

Dthrow also has options. Dthrow then dash leaves oli with the options of: DJ, land, airdodge, attack. DK dash attack beats land and often attack. Dash in shield gives him another grab unless Oli airdodges. Up and DownB work for all options other than DJ. 7% for the throw (without grab jab) then 10-20% for the followup. Again, puts Oli at the halfway mark to be KO'd.

These are probably the most reliable setups for Olimar, due to his size, but if you land one of these setups and guess correctly twice, you have Oli at just about where he needs to be damagewise for the KO. All you need is to land one or two more hits, like a tilt, Down or UpB, or a grab, then he's ready to go. And KOing Oli isn't that difficult. Dsmash alone kills reliably around 85%, and is fairly easy to hit. It's quick, and covers DK nearly all around. You can roll through grab/smash and land it, you can catch Oli if he takes to the air.

This isn't even mentioning Olimar's terrible recovery. If you can get Olimar off early with Dthrow/Bthrow/Bair, DK can hop out, kill Oli's 2nd jump with Bair/Nair, and edgehog. Yes, you can DJ+airdodge, but DK has the aerial mobility and Bair can be fired off twice to catch Oli after he comes out of airdodge. Also, if DK gets a grab near the edge at 40% or above, he can cargo stagespike Oli on a lot of maps, then UpB to the edge, giving Oli virtually no hope of recovering. I notice in a lot of Oli matches Oli will camp towards the edge, such as under a platform in Battlefield, so this technique isn't very hard to pull of.


I still think DK holds at least a slight advantage in this matchup. No, his approach won't work on Oli 100%, but he has enough mixup to keep Oli guessing. All it takes is 3-4 wrong guesses on Oli's part and DK easily racks up the 70-80% needed to kill Oli. Dsmash alone will get the KO on Oli. He can get early gimp kills through edgeguard and cargo stage spike. Meanwhile, Oli has to camp and runaway, and has to catch DK messing up quite a few times before he can reliably get a kill. Pikmin toss is annoying, but unless you are able to get a grab(which Oli undoutedly will), the pikmin is only going to deal at the highest 10-15% or so before it gets removed. This works great for damage racking on most characters, but against DK, who is one of the heaviest in the game (THE heaviest according to M2K's weight tests), you need to rinse your damage dealers a few more times than normal before you can kill DK. If you do not kill DK, he will come back, and more than likely deal some more damage before you can send him off again.

 

[Blue sHell]

Could you give a quick summary of Wario v Olimar a little? I'm not too aware of this weary matchup...

OLIMAR VS WARIO

I'll explain to give the doctor some time to breathe between explanations.

Wario kills Pikmin at a seriously outstanding rate. Dair takes so much health away from the little guys that its nuts. Also Wario could fsmash away Olimar's grab AND his dsmash. Fsmash. So in the short run the Wario vs Olimar matchup is kind of like the Lucas vs Olimar matchup in the way that Wario is in crazy stupid offense mode the whole entire match. He keeps preasure on Olimar too well not to do so. Also the blind offense isn't unsafe due to his mobility in the air + the option of an aerial bite to mix things up.

Regardless of Wario's offense though. Olimar is beast, don't forget that. A fair fully retreated after hitting Oli's shield doesn't mean crap if Olimar's grab range is sick enough to still catch you when you land. And not to mention Oli has some pretty chaingrab > fair combos at low %s. Oli just has alot going for him. Period.

But in the end if it weren't for Wario's great ability to edgegaurd this matchup would STILL be in Oli's favor. But its not the case. Wario could gimp Oli pretty bad if in the right situation. But then again, a smart Oli knows how to trick edgegaurders with cleverly timed Airdodes and smacking people off ledges.

What it all dumbs down to is that it's a really close sexy match where both characters don't get even a second of breathing room.

 

[DMG]

OLIMAR VS WARIO

I'll explain to give the doctor some time to breathe between explanations.

Lol thanks, I've been working on a bunch of different Wario matchups and I've still got a lot more characters to discuss for Wario. I appreciate any help you can give

What it all dumbs down to is that it's a really close sexy match where both characters don't get even a second of breathing room.

That sums it up well. You forgot to mention how fun they are and that the only matches that are more sexy are Wario Ditto's


Will the OP update the matchup chart? I think I have made valid points for Wario on a few characters and the others I can go more in depth if need be.

 

[DanGR]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166145

Shieldbreaker rocks your nuts off.

You obviously do not kow uch about marth's metagame in brawl saying that sheild breaker is a bad approach. Insane range and decent power on the uncharged attack that wills at most times get your opponent to the ledge where marth thrives in this game.

I didn't mean to make a scene. It's an AWESOME move, but as I tried to describe above(thanks to EL's guide) i found the right wording for it.

"- Shieldbreaker has 3 main weaknesses. The first is that when perfectshielded it will do no damage to the shield and Marth is left wide open. The second is that it's unsafe on block. The third is that although Marth is fairly quick to attack, an opponent could react to his stance when he draws his arm back and then spotdodge or perfectshield, if the shieldbreaker is overused."

I understand he said "if it's overused", but I still don't think it's a great approach if you can learn to react to it. How many times do you perfectshield smashes anyways? I mean like 1/3 the time? just a thought. I really don't want to argue 1 v 15 on this. I'm probably biased anyways(being an olimar main=long range isn't a big deal?)I've got my hands full with dk v olimar right now.

 

[Delta Z]

Kirby's main kill move is Fsmash and even sometimes the hammer.

F-smash, u-smash, ground hammer, b-air, air hammer, stone...that's a lot of killing moves.

The main reason you don't have much trouble with Kirby is probably because you play against one so much. Like how my Ike almost always beats my brother's TL, even though it's a bad matchup for him. Personally, I would say Kirby and Wario are even.

 

[DanGR]

@Blue sHell

I main olimar and I can see where you're coming from on your points. Just don't forget about upsmash.

 

[DMG]

F-smash, u-smash, ground hammer, b-air, air hammer, stone...that's a lot of killing moves.

Well those are killing moves but the easiest ones to land/most effective on Wario are Fsmash and Air hammer IMO. Plus, Wario is a heavy guy so usually the best way to kill him is to go for a good horizontal kill, which only Fsmash and Hammer accomplish. Bair is more of an edgeguard tool and... Stone... I dare you to try and hit me with that move

The main reason you don't have much trouble with Kirby is probably because you play against one so much. Like how my Ike almost always beats my brother's TL, even though it's a bad matchup for him. Personally, I would say Kirby and Wario are even.

I do play against my friend's Kirby a lot and you do tend to spot patterns/strategies that repeat in your friend's playing style. However I'm not using my experience against his Kirby as a justification/reason for why I think Wario has the advantage. I was using it to explain to people that I am very knowledgeable on that particular matchup because I have had plenty of time to play against that character while most people haven't had that luxury.

 

[gantrain05]

i also play against a friends kirby, and i gotta say kirby does have a few tricks up his sleeve, i main lucas/toon/bowser and the only one i can consistently beat him with is toon link and lucas is pretty close, and kirby can always seem to lead most attacks into a kill move, if its Fsmash or Dair spike, but i find the best way to deal with kirby is to keep your distance and use some quick projectile attacks, if you dont have any the best way i can fight is to stay far away and play more defensively since kirby doesnt really have the speed to surprise attack i find it easier to counter kirby than to go offensive.

 

[DanGR]

Another DK option I forgot to mention is Bair, land behind UpB. Ungrabbable, unshieldable (at least fully), undodgeable, and it kills all pikmin. At low % it easily racks 15-20% on Oli.

Another problem with your approaches that get behind me is that any attack where you land behind me is punishable with either upsmash or a fast dsmash. Olimar's dsmash reaches behind him the same time as it does foward. It was pretty good range too. Upsmash reaches behind olimar as well as in front.

With DK, he has enough options out of SH Bair to keep Oli guessing between shielding, grabbing, and spot dodging. If Oli guesses right, he can land DK with 20-40% correct? If DK guesses right, he can do anywhere from 15-30%, and puts Oli in the air where he can take advantage. All DK needs is to rack up 70% or so to kill. Olimar needs to rack up at least 100%, if not more to effectively kill DK. (What are Oli's kill %'s on Upsmash/Fsmash/ Bthrow btw? I can't keep track of the different stats for each color pikmin). As such, on average these exchanges start working slightly DK's favor, as he needs to rack less damage to KO.

He does have many options, but (imo) not enough to make olimar choose between shielding and rolling. All of your approaches can be rolled away from and pikmen can be tossed. Racking 100% with olimar is very easy. Just two wrong choices from DK can leave him with 100+

Also, keep in mind SH Bair isn't his only approach for Olimar, but I do believe it to be his best. DK can always empty SH, or Bair then land, and roll behind Oli and punish a shield grab/fsmash, or Bair, airdodge. In the event that DK gets hit with a pikmin after the initial Bair, he can simply DJ away and Bair to clear the pikmin. It doesn't do much to press his offense, but it lets him escape with only a few % damage and resets the stage.

SHbair land and roll behind olimar doesn't work on opponents who grab decently. The unique thing about olimar is that he punishes landing like no other character. airdodge to roll doesn't work on a grab from olimar. The pikmen stays out too long for it to work.

Bair only clears pikmen on his feet.(I'm 90% sure. could you verify?) All his other aerials are punishable via grabbing, and his ground options don't kill them without getting grabbed. Even your jab has enough lag on it to punish with an fsmash or a grab or more pikmen tossing.

This is true. The usage of SH Bair is only for spacing purposes. In the unlikely event of Oli jumping and trying Fair, he gets outranged by Bair. It also serves as a sort of "timer" for me, so I can judge my spacing and distance on a followup hit. There isn't much Oli can do against a SHBair other than toss a pikmin onto DK. Anything more than one pikmin and Oli eats another Bair in the face. One pikmin will only rack up maybe 5-10% before DK is able to remove them. Also after the initial Bair, DK can always airdodge, land and roll/shield as well to avoid attacks.

This is all true, but fairs will only be used so often that it's unpredictable. DK can't airdodge then land and roll as I explained earlier.(I can go into depth if you want)

How exactly does Olimar run away and maintain spacing though? If you stick to ground run, DK can always just follow with Bair and keep the same approach. You have to either stop or jump to be able to pikmin toss, which is where DK Bair will catch you. You can't rely on SH Fair either because again, it is outranged by DK Bair, or can be blocked, then punished with Utilt. DK can also stay on the ground and follow behind if Oli runs as well. It gets tricky because Oli can pivot grab, but DownB outranges grab, you have to stop/jump to toss pikmin, which gives DK time to turnaround Bair, or run under him and Utilt/Dsmash. If you stop and do Dsmash/Fsmash DK can shield, jump over with Nair/SideB, or Punch superarmor through it. UpB also has invincible frames on the startup, which can eat the hit, then beat out a shield or spotdodge from Olimar.

He runs away and maintains spacing by throwing pikmen at the same time. Pikmen can be placed onto your head, back, feet, and chest. None of your aerials kill pikmen on every part of his body so you'll have to mix up your aerials.(which is how you have to keep up-jumping and killing pikmen as you go) When you're forced to use your upair or uptilt to get pikmen off your head is when I come in to grab or something. If there's one in a place where you can't seem to find how to kill it is another instance where I come in. Pikmen on your head is just harder for you to get off.

Also, I play DK to capitalize on shielding and roll/spotdodge. DownB pressures shield and beats a spotdodge/roll. UpB will eat shield stab and lasts long enough to catch a roll/dodge.

true, but olimar doesn't roll or spotdodge often. His range game(pikmen toss as well as long ranged attacks) keeps him from having to roll much. groundpound does beat grabbing if you can get it off before the grab, but it's not fast enough to keep up with people who don't roll. It's very easy to jump over groundpound and throw more pikmen.

(Could you list damage estimates on these for me?)

These are estimates.I'm not counting DR though.

dthrow, upair or fair
(25)

grab,dthrow, fair, ff,grab,dthrow,ff, hyphen smash, upair, upb(low percentage to rack damage. after the second ff, it's possible to DI out of it, but that invites another grab dthrow, fair or upair combo.(this works on big characters everytime at 0%)
(72%!)

uptilt or dtilt, nair, upair, upb(this is great for juggling large characters. It's one of olimar's many moves that keep his opponent airborne.)
(45)

nair, upair or fair, upb(depending on DI)
(almost 40)

dtilt,dtilt,upair(it's basically only at low percentages, but dtilt can always be used until about 100%? to combo into an upair.
(1 uptilt,1 upair-30)

Olimar has no problem racking damage if he can get in a dtilt, uptilt, grab, or nair.

Oli does have good combos on DK. DK doesn't have so many combos, but he has a lot of setups and 50/50s.

Utilt at low % (0-20ish) leads to another Utilt for 15-20%. After this you have a solid mixup game. You can go for another Utilt, which can be airdodged, but if they airdodge you can slightly charge a Dsmash, set up SideB, DownB, or UpB, dealing anywhere from 10-25% damage. From 0% if you guess right here between airdodge or no airdodge, you've already got Olimar halfway to where he needs to be to KO'd.

true

Dthrow also has options. Dthrow then dash leaves oli with the options of: DJ, land, airdodge, attack. DK dash attack beats land and often attack. Dash in shield gives him another grab unless Oli airdodges. Up and DownB work for all options other than DJ. 7% for the throw (without grab jab) then 10-20% for the followup. Again, puts Oli at the halfway mark to be KO'd.

this doesn't work if olimar fair's or dodges the running attack, but it's practical(I say that word a lot.)

These are probably the most reliable setups for Olimar, due to his size, but if you land one of these setups and guess correctly twice, you have Oli at just about where he needs to be damagewise for the KO. All you need is to land one or two more hits, like a tilt, Down or UpB, or a grab, then he's ready to go. And KOing Oli isn't that difficult. Dsmash alone kills reliably around 85%, and is fairly easy to hit. It's quick, and covers DK nearly all around. You can roll through grab/smash and land it, you can catch Oli if he takes to the air.

no beef here

This isn't even mentioning Olimar's terrible recovery. If you can get Olimar off early with Dthrow/Bthrow/Bair, DK can hop out, kill Oli's 2nd jump with Bair/Nair, and edgehog. Yes, you can DJ+airdodge, but DK has the aerial mobility and Bair can be fired off twice to catch Oli after he comes out of airdodge. Also, if DK gets a grab near the edge at 40% or above, he can cargo stagespike Oli on a lot of maps, then UpB to the edge, giving Oli virtually no hope of recovering. I notice in a lot of Oli matches Oli will camp towards the edge, such as under a platform in Battlefield, so this technique isn't very hard to pull of.

Olimar has a bad edgegame, as he doesn't have anywhere to go but off the stage, like you said. If I were you, I wouldn't assume the olimar player is going to stand near the edge for long against DK for the very reasons you said.

I still think DK holds at least a slight advantage in this matchup. No, his approach won't work on Oli 100%, but he has enough mixup to keep Oli guessing. All it takes is 3-4 wrong guesses on Oli's part and DK easily racks up the 70-80% needed to kill Oli. Dsmash alone will get the KO on Oli. He can get early gimp kills through edgeguard and cargo stage spike. Meanwhile, Oli has to camp and runaway, and has to catch DK messing up quite a few times before he can reliably get a kill. Pikmin toss is annoying, but unless you are able to get a grab(which Oli undoutedly will), the pikmin is only going to deal at the highest 10-15% or so before it gets removed. This works great for damage racking on most characters, but against DK, who is one of the heaviest in the game (THE heaviest according to M2K's weight tests), you need to rinse your damage dealers a few more times than normal before you can kill DK. If you do not kill DK, he will come back, and more than likely deal some more damage before you can send him off again.

The only problem is that only a couple misshaps can lead to a kill for olimar. A grab combo, and an uptilt combo will get you to roughly 80%. It's very unlikely that for your size, it'd be hard for olimar to rack and kill. This is another reason olimar is good versus large characters as they're easy to hit and punish. Bowser and DDD have some very decent approaches, but it's very easy to punish with olimar's enormous range on his grab, fsmash, upsmash, etc. and the great priority on his tilts.(that are largely ignored by some olimar players might I add) Large characters abroad are very easy targets to begin long combos. From this, I say olimar>DK. DK is a very good underrated character, but olimar is too.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I'm going to say Wario v Kirby is even.
Kirby is a gimping machine (well, not the best of the best, but his dair and multiple jumps gets the job done)
and Wario follows a predictable path for his recovery, and when far down (via Dair Express) he has trouble upBing to safety. Also, he doesnt auto-sweetspot his upB, so maybe you will actually get hit with the stone kirby.

and I strongly disagree with him having the advantage on Lucas. He has a great disadvantage right now for a reason. The release grab tricks arent close enough to Marth's infinite to change the matchup drastically. Wario has a hard time getting close to Lucas, so it's difficult to even land the grab on him.

Some of your other changes I dont exactly agree with. Could you relist some of those? You mentioned Mario, but you didnt include him in your summary.

and I do use Wario, for the record ;D

 

[DMG]

Sorry I was tired last night and I didn't wanna go in depth on everyone. I'll try to cover a few characters in this post. And no Wario does not follow a predictable path. Kirby's path is easier to predict/interrupt than Wario's.

Mario has fireballs, pretty decent priority on most of his moves, and a pretty solid game overall. The main problem he has is getting gimped by Wario and scoring a kill against the fat man. His fireballs aren't too effective against Wario and other than his nair, he has a hard time stopping Wario from keeping him in the air and stopping his combos. Mario is vulnerable when he is above Wario and when Wario is behind him (assuming Mario isn't in the air.) Wario has multiple kill options and some of them are very effective since Mario is sorta floaty and stays in the air for awhile (Uair and Waft come to mind.) Mario's best kill move is Fsmash and it can be hard to land that on a Wario that weaves in and out with airdodges and aerials. Of course Mario has his other smashes and Fair but it certainly will take him a longer time to kill Wario than it takes for Wario to kill him.

Diddy has bananas, a solid ground and air game, a great meteor smash, and a fairly good recovery range. He can do so many combos and attack chains with his bananas that it can tack on a lot of damage fast. However a lot of Diddy's game can be negated when you use the banana's for yourself. It can turn the tables on him fast and he isn't nearly as dangerous to approach when you disable his bananas. His recovery can cover a large distance but it can also be punished pretty easily. He doesn't have a reliable way to get down to the ground safely when launched in the air and since he is light he can get killed at lower %'s. Diddy has pretty good edgeguarding but Wario's is superior in this match. A lot of his defensive options can be countered with Chomp and his range on a lot of attacks is small.

I will do some more characters later either today or tomorrow; my head hurts and I've had a busy day today. (I'll try to cover Ivysaur, Link, Dedede, Shiek, Ike, IC, and Falco in the next post.)

 

[Brahma]

Another problem with your approaches that get behind me is that any attack where you land behind me is punishable with either upsmash or a fast dsmash. Olimar's dsmash reaches behind him the same time as it does foward. It was pretty good range too. Upsmash reaches behind olimar as well as in front.

As I said, those aren't the only approaches. If DK predicts a D/Usmash from Oli after landing behind, he gets a free punch. Or, he can shield. I'm not entirely sure what he gets from shielding, I don't know if either of those from the back push too far to shield grab, but DK should be able to either hit something or at the very least shield pressure.

He does have many options, but (imo) not enough to make olimar choose between shielding and rolling. All of your approaches can be rolled away from and pikmen can be tossed. Racking 100% with olimar is very easy. Just two wrong choices from DK can leave him with 100+

Check the last paragraph. If DK lands behind Olimar, it's risky for him to attack. As such, the only options he really has are shield, roll/dodge, or run. Shield and dodge can be punished with Up and DownB, run resets the stage.

SHbair land and roll behind olimar doesn't work on opponents who grab decently. The unique thing about olimar is that he punishes landing like no other character. airdodge to roll doesn't work on a grab from olimar. The pikmen stays out too long for it to work.

I've never had this happen that I can remember, but I'll take this as fact.

Bair only clears pikmen on his feet.(I'm 90% sure. could you verify?) All his other aerials are punishable via grabbing, and his ground options don't kill them without getting grabbed. Even your jab has enough lag on it to punish with an fsmash or a grab or more pikmen tossing.

I tested this yesterday, throwing pikmin from the ground onto DK while he was backturned on the ground and in the air. Bair cleared the pikmin in both cases. I'm not sure if I tested jump toss from Oli though. But, given that ground to ground pikmin can be cleared with Bair, I think it's safe to say that air to air works the same way.

He runs away and maintains spacing by throwing pikmen at the same time. Pikmen can be placed onto your head, back, feet, and chest. None of your aerials kill pikmen on every part of his body so you'll have to mix up your aerials.(which is how you have to keep up-jumping and killing pikmen as you go) When you're forced to use your upair or uptilt to get pikmen off your head is when I come in to grab or something. If there's one in a place where you can't seem to find how to kill it is another instance where I come in. Pikmen on your head is just harder for you to get off.

See above, if DK is approaching with SH Bairs (which is his most likely approach), it will clear pikmin, if not kill them with Bair as they are being tossed. Having one or two pikmin attached, I usually don't bother to stop and clear, but rather just wait it out until I'm going to use my next attack. Yes, it racks some damage on DK (around 15-20% I think with blue/red/yellow if they're on for a while, could you give me some numbers on this please?), but IMO not enough to change up my gameplan and risk eating a throw. Also, you have to account for Oli pulling pikmin too, if hey're getting killed. I realize his B pull is very quick, but if DK is right on top of you with Bair approach, Oli can't afford to stop and pull. I've had a few matches vs. Oli (unrecorded, sadly) where he was left with only a few pikmin or no pikmin and was punished for pulling with a Bair.

But olimar doesn't roll or spotdodge often. His range game(pikmen toss as well as long ranged attacks) keeps him from having to roll much. groundpound does beat grabbing if you can get it off before the grab, but it's not fast enough to keep up with people who don't roll. It's very easy to jump over groundpound and throw more pikmen.

DownB isn't that slow either. By the time you jump and throw pikmin, DK will already be out of animation and dashing towards you, with you in the air, which sets up a scenario where Oli must airdodge, shield, or roll, which I think I've clearly emphasized as a situation that favors DK.

These are estimates.I'm not counting DR though.

dthrow, upair or fair
(25)

grab,dthrow, fair, ff,grab,dthrow,ff, hyphen smash, upair, upb(low percentage to rack damage. after the second ff, it's possible to DI out of it, but that invites another grab dthrow, fair or upair combo.(this works on big characters everytime at 0%)
(72%!)

uptilt or dtilt, nair, upair, upb(this is great for juggling large characters. It's one of olimar's many moves that keep his opponent airborne.)
(45)

nair, upair or fair, upb(depending on DI)
(almost 40)

dtilt,dtilt,upair(it's basically only at low percentages, but dtilt can always be used until about 100%? to combo into an upair.
(1 uptilt,1 upair-30)

Olimar has no problem racking damage if he can get in a dtilt, uptilt, grab, or nair.

And you're sure these are 100% inescapable, and work at all percentages? The 72% looks awfully suspect (though as you mentioned it can be escaped), as does Fair to UpB. Also, do platforms get in the way? They do rack up damage well on DK regardless though.

this doesn't work if olimar fair's or dodges the running attack, but it's practical(I say that word a lot.)

Fair can be dealt with by punch or dash shield. Dash has a really long lasting hitbox and I've caught airdodgers with it after their animation ends, but yes, it can be airdodged, that's why I listed Up and DownB as solutions to airdodge.

Olimar has a bad edgegame, as he doesn't have anywhere to go but off the stage, like you said. If I were you, I wouldn't assume the olimar player is going to stand near the edge for long against DK for the very reasons you said.

That's the thing though, DK Bair pressure will often force Olimar towards the edge, where he must either risk getting knocked off, or make a run back to the middle of the stage, which DK can chase and put a little extra pressure on, as I detailed before.




The only problem is that only a couple misshaps can lead to a kill for olimar. A grab combo, and an uptilt combo will get you to roughly 80%. It's very unlikely that for your size, it'd be hard for olimar to rack and kill. This is another reason olimar is good versus large characters as they're easy to hit and punish. Bowser and DDD have some very decent approaches, but it's very easy to punish with olimar's enormous range on his grab, fsmash, upsmash, etc. and the great priority on his tilts.(that are largely ignored by some olimar players might I add) Large characters abroad are very easy targets to begin long combos. From this, I say olimar>DK. DK is a very good underrated character, but olimar is too.[/QUOTE]

I'm confused, at the beginning of your post, you say two mistakes by DK gives Olimar 100+, now you're saying two combos get 80%, which is it? You seem to be putting a lot of stock in the fact that your combos are inescapable and very reliable, which I'm not entirely sure they are. That being said, I haven't seen them myself so it's hard to say.

We seem to be making some good progress on this mathup though. I think it's gone from being one-sided for both our characters to being a pretty even fight. If you're on wi-fi, I'd love to get some matches in with you. I know it's a little tougher seeing all the details of this match online, but it should be fun nonetheless.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

And no Wario does not follow a predictable path. Kirby's path is easier to predict/interrupt than Wario's.

Nonono. Wario is far more predictable than Kirby when it all boils down. First off, lets point out there recovery pro's/con's.

Wario
+Wario Waft covers a huge range when charged
+Bike gives good horizontal movement.
+Aerial movement speed is good
-Falls fast
-Short second jump
-Up B doesnt auto-sweetspot
-Wario Waft is rarely fully powered, and its often used for a killing move
-Bike recovery can be gimped
-UpB gives almost no horizontal movement

Kirby
+Very floaty character
+A whopping FIVE midair jumps
+A great recovery in terms of vertical lift
+His recovery is a spike AND a projectile, making landing safer.
-Doesnt move as fast horizontally (this is ignorable because of his jumps and floaty-ness.

Wario's recovery is confined to a set path when taking into account his bike, his waft, and his up B. Kirby is consitent with his, and this allows creative recoveries. Any player with a basic knowledge of Wario's recovery path can take advantage of this and go for ledge guarding and gimp kills. Kirby can do this well.

I play Wario, and although it seems like his recovery covers a lot of ground, the bike and waft can easily be taken out of the equation, which leaves his pretty bad up B recovery.

Mario has fireballs, pretty decent priority on most of his moves, and a pretty solid game overall. The main problem he has is getting gimped by Wario and scoring a kill against the fat man. His fireballs aren't too effective against Wario and other than his nair, he has a hard time stopping Wario from keeping him in the air and stopping his combos. Mario is vulnerable when he is above Wario and when Wario is behind him (assuming Mario isn't in the air.) Wario has multiple kill options and some of them are very effective since Mario is sorta floaty and stays in the air for awhile (Uair and Waft come to mind.) Mario's best kill move is Fsmash and it can be hard to land that on a Wario that weaves in and out with airdodges and aerials. Of course Mario has his other smashes and Fair but it certainly will take him a longer time to kill Wario than it takes for Wario to kill him.

Mario has no trouble getting the kill on Wario. He has more options that just the Fsmash, and you shouldnt ignore that. Also, thats not how Mario will be getting the majority of his kills. Mario has excellent edge guarding tools in the form of the cape and F.L.U.D.D. Wario, as I've already covered, has a predictable path of movement when he's going to recover. Mario is geared to capitalize on this aspect of characters, and he does this well. Plus, I think his spike knocks Wario right off of his bike.

Nair is fine for combo breaking. The reason Luigi is so hard is because his Nair is a combo breaker. Mario has a similar nair, so I dont see why he needs to have multiple options.

Wario has an easier time when Mario's above him? Well Mario has a pretty easy time with characters above him, too. Uair is a great move.

Honestly, it's fine as being a neutral matchup.
Theres no reason Wario has the upper hand.
Obviously, they both have ways to deal with one another.
But the ways dont affect the matchup much at all.

Diddy v Wario is fine as it is, too.

 

[Ryuzenshu]

wow, really great job^^
not the best matchup but considering how long and hard u prolly worked, its really good.
*saved to desktop*

 

[DMG]

Mario has no trouble getting the kill on Wario.

Quite the contrary, his Fsmash is not that easy of a move to land on a character like Wario. Mario DOES have other kill options but most of them will take longer to kill Wario. Wario shouldn't have very much trouble against FLUDD and the Cape when it comes to getting back to the stage. Wario is not as vulnerable above Mario as Mario is above Wario. Wario has a better recovery, he has better/more effective killing options, he does more damage on most attacks, he can edgeguard Mario way easier and more effectively than Mario can edgeguard, and Wario can dictate the flow of battle more than Mario can. Plus, Wario can curb a lot of defensive options with Chomp. What does Mario have to compensate for these disadvantages?

1. Fireballs, however they aren't that much of a problem for Wario since he can just evade them without too much work.
2. Better range on most attacks. Even with better range though, he struggles in close combat with an aggressive Wario.
3. A more versatile ground game. Wario fight a lot in the air and Mario's ground game doesn't do much to stop that.

Mario's disadvantages affect him more than his advantages in this matchup, so Wario should have the advantage here.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

shiek has a pretty sizable advantage against all space animals.

Fox, Falco and Wolf can all get caught in he FTilt and can't escape until >90% damage. and it csan combo into an Fsmash, Usmash or Dsmash for in instant 0-death combo.

change that on the chart <_<

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F82clXzuxTo <- this is innescapable

so

Shiek >> Fox

Shiek >> Wolf

Sheik >> Falco

I see Ivan has noticed this and has not decided what to do about it yet. I say, for obvious reasons, this matchup should be hugely in sheik's favour (her dtilt can even combo into her Ftilt making it even EASIER to get this off, though Ftilt locking isn't really hard to begin with.)

Regardless, at the very least, its in shiek's favour, not neutral, but I REALLY think it's enough to say "BIG" advantage.

 

[DanGR]

@sonic- dude, I just tested it out. You can jump during the start up lag of the upsmash.(this was with fox, the fastest falling of the spacies)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hmm... in the vid it looks like shiek whips out the Usmash faster than normal... are you sure you got the Usmash out as quickly as possible?

Are you sure you Tried to Usmash at the right damage?

 

[DanGR]

It was pops' shiek, I was the fox. It was a random character game. I was at about 70-sh and as soon as the upsmash pre-animation began, I was able to jump clearly out of the attack. I'm certain. I'd like others to test in though to make sure.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Quite the contrary, his Fsmash is not that easy of a move to land on a character like Wario.

Why not? The Fsmash can be landed on anybody just fine as long as they dont out prioritize it or outrange it. Why is Wario at lessened chances to be Fsmashed? Just because a certain player may have trouble landing the Fsmash on you doesnt mean the whole Mario Community has difficulty conditioning you to get hit.

Mario DOES have other kill options but most of them will take longer to kill Wario. Wario shouldn't have very much trouble against FLUDD and the Cape when it comes to getting back to the stage.

His Usmash kills just fine, thank you very much.
Bair kills at a higher range, but lower at the edges.
And his spike will kill very low, and Wario isnt that great at meteor canceling and then surviving because of his up B.

And the point is, Wario will die soon because of edgeguarding.
Why shouldnt he have trouble? The spacies have trouble, what stops Wario from getting affected?

I gave reasons why Mario can edge guard a Wario, so tell me why you shouldnt get guarded. I'm curious.

Wario is not as vulnerable above Mario as Mario is above Wario. Wario has a better recovery, he has better/more effective killing options, he does more damage on most attacks, he can edgeguard Mario way easier and more effectively than Mario can edgeguard, and Wario can dictate the flow of battle more than Mario can.

Mario isnt any more vulnerable than Wario when he's above. Why? Air dodging is pretty much a given. Wario cant do aerials that matter in rapid succession (I.e. Uair) when Mario is dropping down with an air dodge.

His recovery isn't better by much, and its GIMPABLE. Mario gimps characters like it's his business. Wario wont be gimping Mario at the rate that Mario's gimping Wario. This makes a reliable killing move.

Damage on most attacks is unfounded/obscure. By percent or knockback? Are these moves the ones that his game revolves around? Which moves are you comparing? Even if they are more damaging, do they chain into others as well as Mario's?

Mario is a better edge guarder than Wario. Why is Wario better?

And you cannot say one character "dictates" the flow of battle better than another, or at least, not in this case. I could argue Mario has a better spacing game and therefore handles the match better, if you really want to keep this as an actual point.

Plus, Wario can curb a lot of defensive options with Chomp. What does Mario have to compensate for these disadvantages?

These disadvantages dont really exist.
He doesnt need to compensate for anything because he isnt really lacking in much of anything.

How do you suppose chomp fits into the equation?

Wario has no actual way to deal with Mario's projectile. Of course you can shield it, but most mario's throw it in with his combo's to pepper on damage, or use it to approach. They dont sit back and spam it.

Read up on Mario, or watch some vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmLrJrVlgc
Boss' Mario is too good.

I like Mario, and I love playing Wario, but I dont think Wario has anything that pushes him ahead in the matchup. He has a projectile, lege guarding tools, and range. These are all bad for Wario, but Wario beats Mario in other places. It's neutral.

 

[Killress]

This, my friend, is incredible. Kudos to you.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Boss is money with Mario, wow. Too bad F.L.U.D.D. has about as much use as cold in Alaska

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well the F.L.U.D.D. gimps Ness (what doesnt nowadays? >.>), gives him the better advantage over spacies compared to Luigi, and can mess with people like Ike, Ganon, and Link.

It isnt that good but it also isnt the worst.

 

[DanGR]

As I said, those aren't the only approaches. If DK predicts a D/Usmash from Oli after landing behind, he gets a free punch. Or, he can shield. I'm not entirely sure what he gets from shielding, I don't know if either of those from the back push too far to shield grab, but DK should be able to either hit something or at the very least shield pressure.

I understand there's other approach options. I've given input on those already before. As for the ones that land behind olimar, there isn't enough startup lag on the upsmash or dsmash after your bair for you to fit in a jab.(/, or even any ground attack) The problem with shielding in this case is that you can't land and shield in time to avoid any attack.
[Question: Can't I just turn around and grab after the bair? I do it all the time.]

I've never had this [(airdodging and rolling before olimar grabs)] happen that I can remember, but I'll take this as fact.

It applies to olimar versus anyone.

I tested this yesterday, throwing pikmin from the ground onto DK while he was backturned on the ground and in the air. Bair cleared the pikmin in both cases. I'm not sure if I tested jump toss from Oli though. But, given that ground to ground pikmin can be cleared with Bair, I think it's safe to say that air to air works the same way.

when I say "throw pikmen" I mean after SHing. If olimar doesn't short hop he's put himself in a bad spot. SHing and throwing pikmen has a number of possibilities. This scenario is if you jump to kill thrown pikmen (which will be the only way for you to avoid damage)

yellows-most likely land on your head.
white-mostly too quick to time and bair. If you can, that's good for you. give yourself a cookie.
purple- hit DK, followup
blue/red-if olimar jumps and DK is on the ground, they will hit his head. If they both jump and DK is at the height of the jump, it hits his back and he can hit them off.

If you analyze the possibilities, you can see that DK will get get damage if he chooses to jump and bair all the pikmen without attacking olimar.

See above, if DK is approaching with SH Bairs (which is his most likely approach), it will clear pikmin, if not kill them with Bair as they are being tossed. Having one or two pikmin attached, I usually don't bother to stop and clear, but rather just wait it out until I'm going to use my next attack. Yes, it racks some damage on DK (around 15-20% I think with blue/red/yellow if they're on for a while, could you give me some numbers on this please?), but IMO not enough to change up my gameplan and risk eating a throw. Also, you have to account for Oli pulling pikmin too, if hey're getting killed. I realize his B pull is very quick, but if DK is right on top of you with Bair approach, Oli can't afford to stop and pull. I've had a few matches vs. Oli (unrecorded, sadly) where he was left with only a few pikmin or no pikmin and was punished for pulling with a Bair.

~Damage when eating your flesh~
Basically, without DR, the max is around 8 or 9 hits depending on if there's a flower or not.(I'd rather not get into the flower part unless you're questioning it)

red-2
blue-2
yellow-2
white-6 a hit! yikes! 54% total if you leave them alone.(lol)
purple-6(and knockback, which doesn't change with your %)

Olimar has a "tech" where he can basically run and pull at the same time. It's not enough though. Between bairs (this is if olimar pull directly after shielding) olimar can pick, after any hit onto DK olimar can pick, there's no picking problem. If you happen to kill them all at once. Olimar's tilts and his nair have VERY high priority. He'll be using them.

DownB isn't that slow either. By the time you jump and throw pikmin, DK will already be out of animation and dashing towards you, with you in the air, which sets up a scenario where Oli must airdodge, shield, or roll, which I think I've clearly emphasized as a situation that favors DK.

It's pretty slow in my opinion. All of olimar's attacks are faster and have less ending lag. I'm 100% sure it's not quick enough for DK to run and be in the air by the time olimar jumps and throws pikmen. You will have at least 4 damage if you react quick enough and with the correct attack depending on where the pikmen lands.

And you're sure these are 100% inescapable, and work at all percentages? The 72% looks awfully suspect (though as you mentioned it can be escaped), as does Fair to UpB. Also, do platforms get in the way? They do rack up damage well on DK regardless though.

If DK is at a low percentage(0-20) all except "uptilt or dtilt, nair, upair, upb" are DI-outable. The very end on the 72% combo is DI-outable. Platforms make no difference b/c they launch DK higher, not horizontal. The fair or upair to upb(like I mentioned in the post) depends on your DI. If you DI downwards or to the direction olimar is facing, a fair can be used to end the combo, unless of course you DI anywhere but upwards after the fair, in which case an upb is possible. So in short, fair to upb is not very likely. I misworded. What I meant was nair,upair,upb OR nair, fair. Sorry for the misconception.

Fair can be dealt with by punch or dash shield. Dash has a really long lasting hitbox and I've caught airdodgers with it after their animation ends, but yes, it can be airdodged, that's why I listed Up and DownB as solutions to airdodge.

Yes it can be dealt with, but I said that it will be used occasionally, to trip you up and make you think twice about bairing. Your timing can't be so perfect that you expect me to be on the ground and you'll hit the fair everytime I occasionally pull it out.

That's the thing though, DK Bair pressure will often force Olimar towards the edge, where he must either risk getting knocked off, or make a run back to the middle of the stage, which DK can chase and put a little extra pressure on, as I detailed before.

I understand, but Olimar can roll under your bair if he predicts it and can jump to the other side to avoid a groundpound or a grab.. It's not that hard to do on the slow character with any character for a matter of fact.(except bowser.:/)

I'm confused, at the beginning of your post, you say two mistakes by DK gives Olimar 100+, now you're saying two combos get 80%, which is it? You seem to be putting a lot of stock in the fact that your combos are inescapable and very reliable, which I'm not entirely sure they are. That being said, I haven't seen them myself so it's hard to say.

The combos are very reliable and are mostly inescapable. The 100+ I mentioned earlier accounts for followups after the combos. DK can't avoid them all.(follow ups) Mostly, DK will be tossed in the air. He has little to no options when above olimar except to flee to the edge where olimar picks up his game.

We seem to be making some good progress on this mathup though. I think it's gone from being one-sided for both our characters to being a pretty even fight. If you're on wi-fi, I'd love to get some matches in with you. I know it's a little tougher seeing all the details of this match online, but it should be fun nonetheless.

I'm still not too sure that DK=Olimar in the matchup. I'm pretty confident that olimar has the advantage. It's much easier to see for yourself how horrendous olimar is to the large characters. I won't be able to battle you online b/c , my connection is abysmal, but I can say that I'm sure several other olimar mains in the Olimar thread would be glad to face you on wifi. Try to get either Shrink, Hyde, Mr. X, Olimarman, or Asob4 to brawl with you. They'll show you what's what.

 

[rehab]

This helps a lot more than a simple tier list, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you.

 

[DMG]

Why not? The Fsmash can be landed on anybody just fine as long as they dont out prioritize it or outrange it. Why is Wario at lessened chances to be Fsmashed? Just because a certain player may have trouble landing the Fsmash on you doesnt mean the whole Mario Community has difficulty conditioning you to get hit.

I mean Wario has a lot more maneuverability/dodging abilities than most characters. He is a slippery character and just because a move has good range and priority doesn't mean that there's no way around it. I didn't say anything about only playing one Mario and I'm sorry if I implied it that way.

His Usmash kills just fine, thank you very much.
Bair kills at a higher range, but lower at the edges.
And his spike will kill very low, and Wario isnt that great at meteor canceling and then surviving because of his up B.

I have said Mario has more than just one kill move. I just think that Fsmash is his best one. Bair is a pretty decent edgeguarding move and so is his spike. However Mario can't just go out there and hit Wario like it's nobodies business. He has to go through more work to edgeguard Wario than the work Wario has to do to edgeguard Mario.

And the point is, Wario will die soon because of edgeguarding.
Why shouldnt he have trouble? The spacies have trouble, what stops Wario from getting affected?

Spacies are not the same as Wario. They have less recovery options and less overall mobility in the air. They don't usually have the luxury of being able to airdodge an edgeguarding attempt and still make it back to the stage very often.

I gave reasons why Mario can edge guard a Wario, so tell me why you shouldnt get guarded. I'm curious.

You gave me reasons but not a reasonable method of executing them. So what if Mario has a great meteor smash or a pretty good bair? The question is can you land it effectively? Wario can jump out and predict the airdodge, hit you with an fair, double jump into a nair, and use his bike and if necessary his Upb. Mario can't predict an airdodge and punish it quite as effectively as Wario can in this matchup. He can't risk going out very far from the edge since his recovery isn't too stellar. Wario has the better edgeguarding game because not only can he travel farther to gimp you than Mario can, but he also can edgeguard better in general because of his ability to punish an airdodge well. Mario just doesn't have that good of an edgeguard game vs Wario.

Mario isnt any more vulnerable than Wario when he's above. Why? Air dodging is pretty much a given. Wario cant do aerials that matter in rapid succession (I.e. Uair) when Mario is dropping down with an air dodge.

Wario has it easier above Mario in the air because of two main reasons:

1. He has a greater horizontal and fall speed than Mario, so he has a better chance of dodging an attack.

2. His dair has a bigger hitbox that extends further downward than Mario's dair so he has a better chance of trading hits or even beating out the opponents attack.

Wario can bait Mario into an airdodge and punish him easier than Mario can punish Wario because Wario has better air control. That's why he is less vulnerable than Mario in the air.

His recovery isn't better by much, and its GIMPABLE. Mario gimps characters like it's his business. Wario wont be gimping Mario at the rate that Mario's gimping Wario. This makes a reliable killing move.

Wario's Recovery covers more vertical and horizontal distance than Mario's. Mario's is much easier to gimp than Wario's and just because you can gimp Wario doesn't mean you can automatically overlook Mario's recovery flaws. And Wario definitely has a better chance at a gimp than Mario, I compared their edgeguarding game above and it should be obvious that Wario has an easier and more reliably method of getting a gimp.

Damage on most attacks is unfounded/obscure. By percent or knockback? Are these moves the ones that his game revolves around? Which moves are you comparing? Even if they are more damaging, do they chain into others as well as Mario's?

I was referring to %'s but in knockback they are stronger in general as well. Wario's most damaging moves fit well into his game: Dair, Waft, Chomp, Fsmash, Uair, Fthrow, and others. Mario's most damaging moves are his finishers. Wario can combo just as well, if not better, than Mario and since one of Wario's best combo moves is Dair, he can also do a lot of damage with a 2-3 move combo. It would take Mario more hits to get the same % and Wario has the better defensive/evasive game.

Mario is a better edge guarder than Wario. Why is Wario better?

See above point on edgeguarding.

And you cannot say one character "dictates" the flow of battle better than another, or at least, not in this case. I could argue Mario has a better spacing game and therefore handles the match better, if you really want to keep this as an actual point.

It is an actual point because it is true. Mario's fireballs don't really curb Wario's aggressive style and in close combat Mario is gonna struggle with keeping up. Wario excels at close combat and he can negate the Fireballs and make the entire match a close up brawl. Mario can't just rush in and barrage Wario and keep the pressure on him. Wario can use his strong assets to the fullest and Mario has to work a lot harder to be able to effectively utilize his strong points.

These disadvantages dont really exist.
He doesnt need to compensate for anything because he isnt really lacking in much of anything.

How do you suppose chomp fits into the equation?

Mario has a not so great recovery, he has trouble landing the killing blow on some of the faster characters, his range is not too good, his projectiles don't work too well against some characters, he can have trouble getting to the ground safely after a launcher, and he cannot work around his disadvantages like a lot of characters can do.

Chomp fits into the equation because it forces Mario to not be totally defensive. Mario can't really stop Wario from evading or defending himself. So not only have Mario's offensive options been hindered, but his defensive choices as well.

Wario has no actual way to deal with Mario's projectile. Of course you can shield it, but most mario's throw it in with his combo's to pepper on damage, or use it to approach. They dont sit back and spam it.

Wario has no way to deal with the Fireballs? So I guess when Blue sHell and other Wario players get around it, it's just a lucky fluke? Maybe the Mario was doing it wrong? IDK I don't have too much of a problem with the Fireballs and I said nothing about Mario Spamming them.

Read up on Mario, or watch some vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmLrJrVlgc
Boss' Mario is too good.

I like Mario, and I love playing Wario, but I dont think Wario has anything that pushes him ahead in the matchup. He has a projectile, lege guarding tools, and range. These are all bad for Wario, but Wario beats Mario in other places. It's neutral.

I have read up on Mario. I read up on a lot of characters. Telling me to go read up on a character or to go and study them seems like an insult towards me, as if I have no clue about Mario's abilities or his metagame.

Mario's projectile is not as effective as you might think it is, his range is an issue for Wario, but in close combat Speed is more effective/important than range, and Wario has better edgeguarding choices.

Simply put, Wario can work around his weaknesses easier and more effectively than how Mario can get around his flaws. This is partly why Wario should have the advantage.

 

[Kasai]

I think that it's basically come to a close about the Wario vs Kirby discussion as Escalator brought up many good points. But more on the lucario match up.

Lucario's killing power is quite underestimated when he is at the 70+ range. Many think that he is completely weak until the 120s but he actually has very decent killing power once in the seventies or eighties. About gimp-ability, I would say that Wario probably has a very hard time doing anything but edge hogging lucario (mainly due to his lack of pure vertical recovery). A very simple solution to basically EVERY edge guard attempt against lucario is just a well timed reverse double team counter, which basically flings lucario towards the stage with invincibility.

When you were talking about lucario's attacks, and how many have a lot of lag, you are definitely missing his best moves, or lack experience playing lucarios that utilize them.

Ftilt - fast, good range, almost no ending lag
utilt- very fast, very spammable, very little start/end lag
all aerials except bair (which has a fair amount of startup lag) and nair (which has horrible ending lag but has no landing lag)

Now this selection of moves allows for very well spacing and a few good approaches. Wario may be able to KO lucario earlier, but don't expect a lucario player to allow you an easy opening...especially not anything that would give wario the advantage. Lucario has quite a few low lag moves (dair, nair, uair, ftilt) not to mention a combo into a full aura sphere, that he can use to both rack up damage and to KO with without giving Wario much opening.

Even match up. There just isn't enough in Wario's favor to allow him to have an advantage.

 

[SlashTalon]

In terms of the Sheik vs falco debate you can just tap DI towards sheik to get out of the Ftilts...

 

[Browny]

yeah ive been trying out the tilt traps, the CPU manages to escape it EVERY time, so its obviously escapable by humans