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I'm not through with Wario vs Kirby. I still think that Wario has an advantage there and I think that I have stated enough reasons as to why Wario has a slight edge.
When I was talking about %'s on Lucario, I was referring to what percentage he would have to be at to have his killing ability be reliable. Lucario can kill people in the 70-80% area and actually for any % Lucario can kill, but it doesn't really become reliable until he gets around 100%. Lucario cannot solve every edgeguarding problem with a reverse double team. I have played against Lucario's that do that and usually I don't hit them since I am busy trying to see if they would airdodge and then punish them. The reverse double team only works if they hit you; otherwise it makes recovering even harder.
I said that MOST of his attacks either have noticeable Startup OR ending lag. I didn't say every move was laggy or that his best moves are all too laggy, I said that for a lot of his attacks, they usually have some form of noticeable lag on them.
4 moves seems like a small selection choice for pure spacing/approaching. I'm not a Lucario Main but I'm pretty sure that he has more than 4 good moves for approaching/spacing.
The red text speaks for itself.
How can you say that be when you haven't played as Mario? If you are talking about easy to edgeguard in general for most characters then that statement would still be false. A lot of characters have trouble edgeguarding Wario well. His vertical recovery is only bad when he is left with out his Waft and his bike. Otherwise it is quite good.
Chomp helps against his defense. His hitboxes can linger as long as they want; Wario generally has an ok time with dodging them. Just because they have good range or a long last time, it doesn't mean that it is a wall or something.
DI during a fast combo of attacks is like in Smash 64, where you have to hit the control stick many times to DI faster. And since Sheik's ftilt has more hitbox in front of her than behind her, why would you DI through MORE hitbox than LESS? Now THAT'S counter intuitive. Jam the control stick rapidly towards sheik to escape.
Just because he's quick, Rob still has the advantage over Pikachu. Also, Sonic can be all over the place, but does that change the large disadvantage he has over G&W's range and beastly priority? No.
It is his best. Wario still gets hit with it as much as the next character. And yes, actually, Mario can go off the stage and execute what he wants on Wario with relative ease. He's floaty which accounts for a lot when it comes to off the edge game.
They have better recovery options. They have two options that are reliable. They dont move in the air as well, but they fall just as quick.
Okay, first, Wario the edgeguarder.
Mario has a just as likely chance at dodging an attack from below as Wario. He doesnt have a safety move like the Dair, but he does more than fine when above Wario.
Mario has an average recovery. What are these flaws? He's floaty, his second jump is sound, can cape to deter off stage attacks, and his UpB covers good distance both horizontally and vertically
I was going to check the actual percents, but neither guide has those. So pretty much, you're making a claim you cant back up. If you know the percents, lemme know, otherwise it sounds like you're doinf guesswork.
See my above points.
Mario is great with Juggling, so I dont see why he cant "keep up". This is Game and Watch beating up on a Ganondorf here, they're both good up close. Mario makes approaches with the fireballs, and does great up close due to his aerial floaty-ness. His aerials come out quick and can deter Wario up there, and his ground game isnt bad either.
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The thing is, because he doesnt spam them, it's harder to deal with. He makes approaches with his fireballs. Theres obviously ways around it, duh, but shielding the ball of fire isnt too great as Mario's already moving to attack. He may use it dropping down or force Wario into aerial approaches. It peppers on damage and is very useful against Wario because he doesnt bucket them or heal off of it.
You obviously don't know the most about Mario OR you're outright ignoring things because your main is who he's matched up against. Obviously you're going to defend your main's ability to handle a Mario, but all Im saying is that Mario goes off equally with Wario. Theres nothing Wario does that really pulls him ahead.
Range is always an issue because you're not going to get the close fight you desire because of the range pushing you away. Marth has range, and he does fine Vs Sonic, the fastest thing alive. Mario is plenty speedy, so thats another thing your overlooking. Wario has few edge guarding choices, actually. Mario can expect the same thing each time, where Mario can mix it up with spikes, carrying Bairs, F.L.U.D.D., the cape, etc etc.
I think I have adequately argued this.
Wario's airdodge game is a lot better than most characters. When I say evasive, I'm not talking about hit and run or camping or anything like that, I'm talking about who has the easiest time to dodge attacks that would normally hit them. I'm not saying that it is impossible to hit Wario with Fsmash but I AM SAYING that there's a better chance for him to evade it compared to most characters.
He may be floaty but there is no way he is going out as far as Wario can, hit his opponent, and recover safely.
Firefox/Firebird are not reliable. Phantasm is usually the better recovery move but it goes in a straight line. There's not much you can mix up with that.
In a situation like that, yes he can't airdodge all over the place and expect to make it back. However that is very situational and you know that most of the time the bike is not on the stage.
You can't cape every edgeguarding attempt. Usually Wario can combo into his nair, which is why air dodging and the cape don't work too well in that situation (If it doesn't combo, then cape would probably be too slow to get out.) If Mario gets hit by Nair, isn't he gonna be too far to spike or cape Wario?
What I was trying to say earlier is that Wario has a greater allowance of error than Mario when it comes to edgeguarding. If Wario messes up and misses the chance to punish an airdodge or if he times something wrong, he has a greater chance of correcting his mistake or at the worst making it back to the stage safely. Mario certainly cannot afford to make a mistake in edgeguarding as much as Wario can. Mario is a floatier character. He doesn't have very good horizontal speed. If Wario falls faster and moves further to the side in the air than Mario, then he has a better chance of avoiding Mario if he is trying to juggle him. When Mario is in the air, he is floaty, which takes him longer to get down to the ground. He moves slower horizontally in the air, so there's a lower chance of him evading Wario from out running him in the air. Mario get's stuck in the air worse than Wario simply because he has a harder time of getting to the ground safely.
I am not ignoring the cape or FLUDD. How does FLUDD work into more situations that bike? It doesn't help vertical recovery, it has quite a bit of lag and makes you more vulnerable than when Wario is on his bike, It has to be charged to get the maximum benefit, and you have to aim it in the right direction to propel yourself the right way. The cape is helpful, but certainly not as much as the bike.
No, Mario has a harder time at getting down to the ground safely. He is floaty and his dair is not too great of a juggle stopper. He struggles above Wario... there is no way you can say Mario does fine against Wario when above him when he does not.
Yes, Mario has an average recovery. He can cape but you cannot expect to cape every edgeguarding attempt. His Upb is average at best.
I will do a move by move comparison. Do you want me to do it in training mode or in Brawl mode? (I'll be sure to restart for the moves in Brawl mode to negate the stale moves effect.)
His fireballs have uses but they are not as effective against Wario as they are against most characters. Wario might not always be in his face but he has the tools to approach and punish Mario pretty well.
Mario has the worse recovery.
)Range is not that much of an issue when it comes to close combat. Wario likes close combat, hell he eats close combat for breakfast. He has terrible range. However, he has the ability to negate that disadvantage pretty well with his ability to safely get close to opponents. If he can't safely get to them, then he has a hard time. Mario just doesn't have enough to stop Wario from getting to him.
Just because you don't see the advantage does not mean it does not exist.
And every point you have brought up has been overcome...
I did not ignore the stuff you said. In fact, I have quoted almost every sentence you had typed and tried to type a reasonable argument as to why I believe Wario has the advantage against Mario. Some of your points were incorrect, like Mario has an ungimpable recovery or that his aerial control is better in this matchup or that he can edgeguard Wario more effectively than Wario can edgeguard him. I posted REASONS as to why those statements are false/misleading, yet you seem to think that they do not matter or that they are false because they might conflict with your opinions. I have no problem admitting where Wario is weak and what gives him a hard matchup. I do my very best not to over glorify Wario because I am fully aware that he is not even close to being the best character in the game and I know his limits. I do not underestimate Mario or ignore his attributes. I think that you are not admitting Mario's flaws and you sound like you are over playing his strengths. We do not have to argue about this matchup anymore but you cannot say that you are right and that I am wrong and have that statement become automatically true.
I have analyzed the fight for both sides. I have tried to look from both perspectives and given both characters the same amount of attention without any biases. Maybe I am biased towards Wario. Maybe you are biased towards Mario. I guess the best resolution is to get someone else that has a lot of experience with both to either confirm what I am saying or to confirm what you are saying.
Give the guy credit for making the chart in the first place. Not very many people would have been motivated to do what he is doing now. You seem to have a bias towards Mario so you certainly aren't excused from "bias towards their own character" sentence and I probably am not either.
No Sonic's strength does not lie in his ground game.
He;s absolutely tight, I'm a previous sonic main and no-one NO-ONE was a worse matchup than luigi.
It's alright, the fact that he's the underdog makes me like him even more. One hell of a mean looking underdog though.
When I said punch, I didn't mean jab, I meant giant punch, which will super armor through D or Usmash. I can do punch before landing if I'm fairly sure you'll try to attack. If I Bair, DI over, Bair, I'm almost certain it stalls enough to avoid Dsmash and bury.
You can try, but if I do SH Bair, DI over, >B, it stays in the air and buries a grab attempt for a free attack. I think Bair, DI over, Uair/Nair will beat it out also, since he is technically still in the air. If I just land or attempt a grounded atack, then yes, I believe grab will beat it.
This is exactly what I mentioned with DK approaching with Bairs while Olimar runs away. If Olimar SHs, DK should be sticking close enough so that BAir will hit Oli if he jumps. If not, it will at least stuff pikmin toss, or at the very least, DK gets a pikmin attached and Bairs it off. If the pikmin hits him grounded, he can pause and Utilt, or SH Uair then continue Bair, but I'd personally just ignore a single pikmin.when I say "throw pikmen" I mean after SHing. If olimar doesn't short hop he's put himself in a bad spot. SHing and throwing pikmen has a number of possibilities. This scenario is if you jump to kill thrown pikmen (which will be the only way for you to avoid damage)
yellows-most likely land on your head.
white-mostly too quick to time and bair. If you can, that's good for you. give yourself a cookie.
purple- hit DK, followup
blue/red-if olimar jumps and DK is on the ground, they will hit his head. If they both jump and DK is at the height of the jump, it hits his back and he can hit them off.
If you analyze the possibilities, you can see that DK will get get damage if he chooses to jump and bair all the pikmen without attacking olimar.
So would you agree my estimate of 10-15% is close if I don't kill them immediately? Even if I don't clear immediately DK usually won't go a long enough time without using a clear move to let a pikmin get a full 8-9 hits.
If you shield drop and pick after a SH bair, won't a second Bair hit, or does Oli recover fast enough? Also, if you pick after a hit, doesn't that break your combo and lessen your damage racking ability? Bair should cut through Oli's attacks because of range, and without Pikmin, I don't have to worry about grab, so I can go nuts with SH double Bair and tilts to keep pressure, the same as with any other character.
I wasn't saying that DownB is a reactionary move. I was saying if DK does downB and Oli jumps, it ends quick enough to dash in after and punish Oli's SH with:
What about airdodges? It seems to me that "utilt_dtilt, nair, uair, upB" could be airdodged at the Uair or UpB.
I believe this was in regard to Fair after I dthrow you. I'm not saying I will be predicting and timing it precisely, I'm saying that DK's normal Dthrow followups (Bair, dash shield, punch, UpB) will beat out your Fair attempt, or any aerial attack for that matter.
If you're rolling into DK at the edge of his Bair range, you place yourself right in front of DK. Nair, or fastfall land into several attack options (I won't list because it's just a repeat of what I've said before). If you roll into him when DK is deep on his Bair(like if for a DI over attempt), you place yourself just at the edge of DK's range, facing him. This is a pretty even situation for both of them, as Oli can utilize shield grab if I ftilt, but DK also can dash grab, DownB or UpB to pressure Oli.
The thing about Oli pressuring DK in the air, is that DK can FF into him with punch to break out of a followup. Yes, if he misses, Oli can capitalize with a grab if he gets to the ground quick enough. But anywhere over 70%, if a punch lands, Oli is dead.
Well, at this point we seem to be just theory fighting, and until some matches get played out and analyzed, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the names, I'll try and get ahold of some of these guys over the weekend and get some games in and record some matches.
The chart is based off of humans playing each other. Not CPUs playing each other or humans playing CPUs.
its b/c people underestimate zeldas ability to fight small and fast people. i have not fought many pt but the ones i have fought squitrtle did not give me a problem.
I actually agree with you! it's similiar to Pikachu v Zelda. Zelda just tears up his approaches with range and air defense.
Don't quote yourself for emphasis on a point you made that's on the SAME PAGE as this earlier post.
To me at least, it seems you're underestimating olimar's range and quickness now. I agree about which way this is going though. I think it'd be better for some real matches to be played like you said. good luck. If it's too laggy, then they won't count.(obviously) good luck!
Umm...the people in the link and the olimar threads both agree its olimar>link if not olimar>>link. Go talk to each group. I've actually started a weekly matchup thread in the olimar subforum. This week is actually link! how ironic.anyway i think Link vs olimar deservers another look at (or maybe even 1 look at...). Links sword goes through everything olimar has in the air, his clawshot has bigger range than olimars fsmash, Links fsmash has really good horizontal knockback which leaves olimar open for easy gimps off stage.
My brothers olimar beats almost every character i use (including the likes or marth, snake etc) but adult link just tears him apart every time. he says link is his hardest match-up, and I can see why when many of olimars tactics are beaten by adult links projectile spam and huge range.
and the dash-cancel usmash makes short work of olimar side-b spam
Yeah, I know. People are not equally skillful. A lvl 9 Snake SHOULD equal a lvl 9 Ganondorf, so making computers play against each other would be more accurate.
Yeah, but a lv. 1 Mr. Game and Watch is better than a lv. 9 Ness in Melee...
