Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Updated EVO predictions (Ito edition):

Spoiler

1) ZeRo
2) ESAM
3) Rain
4) Dabuz
5) Nairo
5) Larry Lurr
7) Mr-R
7) Nietono
=====Finals Cutoff=====
9) MVD
9) Ally
9) NickRiddle
9) Shaky
13) Dapuffster
13) Aerolink
13) FOW
13) 8bitman
17) Salem
17) DKWill
17) K9sbruce
17) Mr. ConCon
17) Ito
17) True Blue
17) Abadango
17) False
25) Nyanko
25) StaticManny
25) Phuzix
25) Denti
25) Tyrant
25) 6WX
25) Falln
25) John Numbers

I'm actually more excited now for the probable clash and the increased likelihood of seeing some in Semis.

'Cause I'm bored and I have nothing better to do, the diversity would be of the 25 predicted:

Spoiler

/ - 1
- 2
- 1
- 1
- 2
- 1
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 2
- 8
- 3
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 2

That's 22 characters of the allowed 51 characters. That's pretty impressive. One thing that's funny is how there's 8 Sheik players; 32% of the 25 predicted players will use Sheik. Anyway, False does have a Luigi, I believe K9 has a Mario, Larry has a Sheik that he sometimes uses, Denti has a Sheik, and Nietono also has a Luigi alongside maybe his Sheik if it's decent enough to be used at EVO. That would turn the Sheik count to 10-11, Luigi to 4, and Mario to 2. For other "weirdos", we might see a Robin or Zelda from Nairo if he decides to troll during a match, Olimar might not be completely dead to Dabuz, Bowser might make an appearance from Nick Riddle, ESAM might pull out a Samus, Tyrant could pull out a Diddy if he feels that his Meta Knight is dead, ZeRo might use Captain Falcon, and Ally and FOW have a crapton of other characters they could use for ***** and giggles. I know Ally can use - how well is up to people - Captain Falcon, Luigi, Marth, and Falco, but anyone can "use" a character, so I'm not going to include them. On the other hand FOW does have a competent Villager, though. Also, Larry Lurr said he was "saving Falco" for EVO, but I bet we will not see that.

With that, it would be this:

Spoiler

- 1; inclusion of Nick Riddle
- 1; inclusion of ZeRo - would be 2 if Ally decides to pull the Capt. out
/ - 1
- 3; inclusion of Tyrant
- 1
- 1
- 4; inclusion of False and Nietono - would be 5 if Ally decides to use Luigi for whatever reason
- 2; inclusion of K9
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1; inclusion of Dabuz
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1; inclusion of Nairo
- 2
- 1; inclusion of ESAM
- 11; inclusion of Larry Lurr, Denti, and Nietono
- 3
- 2; inclusion of FOW
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1; inclusion of Nairo, but it's probably a never unless he really wants to troll
- 2

Including Zelda aka "Troll Mode On Nairo", that's 6 wild cards to a total of 28 characters of the allowed 51 with Sheik making up of 44% of the 25 predicted players' characters.

Edit: Forgot Olimar.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sheik's needles more than any other proposed changes, need a weight value so that their range is decreased. While Reflex's idea of changing what are essentially lasers with kb growth to actually reflect such is understandable and could work to make them less polarizing, I'd much rather have her retain things like needles>bouncing fish while not being able to compete with characters from 2/3rd's of the stage away with the frame data they have (iirc f5 single needle, f11 full charge).

I've seen several different ideas regarding how to nerf needles. The most obvious is to just kill their knockback, but they're still basically unreactable except at max range and thus one of the best zoning projectiles in the game. (First needle comes out on frame 10 with partial charge, 16 with max charge, and 5 frame travel time.)

Given how fast needles come out, I don't think reducing endlag would be meaningful. Reducing startup would be more useful, I think.

Reducing their range is another idea that gets floated a lot. It would nerf her zoning game while leaving her setups untouched at close range.

One last idea I have is to remove their knockback entirely, like Fox's Blaster. Maybe let a full charge of needles still do knockback so she doesn't completely lose her setups, but as zoning they would become nothing but little pecks of damage. Whether this is good or bad overall probably depends on how invested you are in Sheik's well-being.

 

[Speed Boost]

'Cause I'm bored and I have nothing better to do, the diversity would be of the 25 predicted:

Spoiler

/ - 1
- 2
- 1
- 1
- 2
- 1
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 2
- 8
- 3
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 2

That's 22 characters of the allowed 51 characters. That's pretty impressive. One thing that's funny is how there's 8 Sheik players; 32% of the 25 predicted players will use Sheik. Anyway, False does have a Luigi, I believe K9 has a Mario, Larry has a Sheik that he sometimes uses, Denti has a Sheik, and Nietono also has a Luigi alongside maybe his Sheik if it's decent enough to be used at EVO. That would turn the Sheik count to 10-11, Luigi to 4, and Mario to 2. For other "weirdos", we might see a Robin or Zelda from Nairo if he decides to troll during a match, Olimar might not be completely dead to Dabuz, Bowser might make an appearance from Nick Riddle, ESAM might pull out a Samus, Tyrant could pull out a Diddy if he feels that his Meta Knight is dead, ZeRo might use Captain Falcon, and Ally and FOW have a crapton of other characters they could use for ***** and giggles. I know Ally can use - how well, is up to people - Captain Falcon, Luigi, Marth, and Falco, but anyone can "use" a character, so I'm not going to include them. On the other hand FOW does have a competent Villager, though. Also, Larry Lurr said he was "saving Falco" for EVO, but I bet we will not see that.

With that, it would be this:

Spoiler

- 1; inclusion of Nick Riddle
- 1; inclusion of ZeRo - would be 2 if Ally decides to pull the Capt. out
/ - 1
- 3; inclusion of Tyrant
- 1
- 1
- 4; inclusion of False and Nietono - would be 5 if Ally decides to use Luigi for whatever reason
- 2; inclusion of K9
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1; inclusion of Nairo
- 2
- 1; inclusion of ESAM
- 11; inclusion of Larry Lurr, Denti, and Nietono
- 3
- 2; inclusion of FOW
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1; inclusion of Nairo, but it's probably a never unless he really wants to troll
- 2

Including Zelda aka "Troll Mode On Nairo", that's 5 wild cards to a total of 27 characters of the allowed 51 with Sheik making up of 44% of the 25 predicted players' characters.

Actually, Nairo has been trolling with Lucina as of late. He got Angel Cortes with her at some recentish Tri-State round up and then the other day he tried to troll Dabuz. Naifus...

 

[BadDeku]

I just don't see how captain falcon winning locals and for glory matches at all justifies a nerf. Sure, some of his stuff is stupidly strong against players who don't understand how to not get dash grabbed in neutral (I'll give you a hint, don't get read) and I know a lot of low and mid tier characters struggle against him but the character is viable as a counter pick at best when it comes down to the actual competitive meta. Sheik and pikachu make him pretty unusable in the national competitive scene. And hey, I think we've encountered the real issue. But captain falcon's neutral is already below average, adding lag to his back air and changing his jab would essentially make him a low tier character as he would have pretty much no neutral game and an above averageish punish game (if even that really). Also a character being easy should never justify balancing what. If it does lets talk about mario and luigi. Mario is definitely better than falcon in every way and much easier. Pretty much everyone in southern California agrees luigi Is one of the top 3 best characters in the game and I don't think I've heard anyone other than Boss say "Luigi is a difficult character."

You are blowing the changes way out of proportion. Mac and Mario still get great mileage out of holding A for pressure, and neither of them have the mix-ups for stopping halfway that Falcon does.

F-Smash leans back and is a great punish tool, which is actively good considering how much freedom he has with his dash distances, which very few Falcons make use of.

I think his Dash Grab is easily one of the biggest problems in the game; combined with his incredible mobility and how you cannot react to it, it makes Falcon the Melee Sheik of this game. Nerfing the Dash Grab has no effect on his initial dash, so I don't understand how this would hurt his throw combos in any way.

Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Up-B is totally a reasonable thing. Ganondorf does the same thing but charges the opponent with electricity first and only does 11%. Something's got to give. Falcon is overloaded with silliness.

The momentum from his dash grab is actually the only way he gets any down throw follow ups at many percents when you apply combo di. He slides in the process of his down throw and becomes closer to his opponent. This forces him to use this tool for follow ups, often meaning he has to set up for it with back air. And adding lag to his back air would not only get rid of his only safe approach option, it would do away with this set up as well. changing his jab might be a sensible nerf just because it's annoying in some matchups, and fsmash nerfs probably wouldn't actually affect his competitive play much but might make things easier for beginners, so I guess I'm for this. But I still think he's one of the last characters in need of a nerf right now.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

"Invalidating this" "invalidating that" "invalidating large chunk of cast" "invalidating 90% of cast" "invalidating cast with needles" "invalidating cast of mobility" "invalidating cast with Luma" " the sheik is unwinnable" "sheik does everything our character do, but better"
I know smash 4 is very similar to street fighter, but sheesh really? Is this what you guys think?

 

[Smog Frog]

its probably because overly dominant characters are so commonplace in most fighting games its hard to comprehend smash 4 not having any

i dont think or helped with smash veterans either

 

[Firefoxx]

Falcon has a fantastic neutral game and his safe approach option is "abuse his amazing initial dash and all the awesome things he can do out of it/with it"

 

[irokex13]

I just don't see how captain falcon winning locals and for glory matches at all justifies a nerf. Sure, some of his stuff is stupidly strong against players who don't understand how to not get dash grabbed in neutral (I'll give you a hint, don't get read) and I know a lot of low and mid tier characters struggle against him but the character is viable as a counter pick at best when it comes down to the actual competitive meta. Sheik and pikachu make him pretty unusable in the national competitive scene. And hey, I think we've encountered the real issue. But captain falcon's neutral is already below average, adding lag to his back air and changing his jab would essentially make him a low tier character as he would have pretty much no neutral game and an above averageish punish game (if even that really). Also a character being easy should never justify balancing what. If it does lets talk about mario and luigi. Mario is definitely better than falcon in every way and much easier. Pretty much everyone in southern California agrees luigi Is one of the top 3 best characters in the game and I don't think I've heard anyone other than Boss say "Luigi is a difficult character."

Falcon's dash grab travels roughly 1/4 of FD. It has the range of a tether grab without the ending lag of one. It needs either half the range or significantly more ending lag.

His jab is also a tad too good, so much so that I see a lot of Falcon's just hold A after doing X move and avoiding a punish due to his jab's speed, range, and low ending lag.

Falcon's bait is honestly stupid. It auto cancels, deal 14%, and is safe on power shield for most characters. That's far too much safety for that much reward. Falcon should be a character that thrives off setting up 50/50s and getting reads with high risk/high reward moves, but some of him moves are too safe for how much reward they give.

These nerfs aren't to destroy him, and he'd definitely still be a viable character, he just wouldn't get away with a lot of the brain dead options that he currently has. As long as he's playing correctly, he would still get the same combos and strings.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I thought Denti had a Sheik.

Late but he does, he uses Yoshi as like a pocket pocket character but doesn't do well with him against the better players. Goes back to Sheik/Diddy when in trouble or right away if he wants to win.

 

[Antonykun]

"Invalidating this" "invalidating that" "invalidating large chunk of cast" "invalidating 90% of cast" "invalidating cast with needles" "invalidating cast of mobility" "invalidating cast with Luma" " the sheik is unwinnable" "sheik does everything our character do, but better"
I know smash 4 is very similar to street fighter, but sheesh really? Is this what you guys think?

i can only say that Villager really does feel like easy mode sheik in a game with easy mode mockery.
Villager and sheik both have deadly aerial strings consisting of N-airs and F-airs (and really good aerials overall),
a strong emphasis on the neutral game with very disruptive projectiles,
powerful recoveries that lend themselves nicely with amazing aerials to create an amazing edguarding game,
trouble killing (Villager needs hard reads or an edgguard to get a not late stock),

Obviously they are two very different characters but they both have similar gameplans and sheik does her's so much better. Better frame data and a better neutral because of needles, a safe recovery, security in kills, just make her much better than the mayor, but Villager has a far lower skill floor and a gentler skill curve than Sheik.

Quite honestly in my time dabbling with Sheik I can say that villager translates very nicely to sheik. The only real reason why I don't use Sheik is that I adore Villager and everything she stands for and the aforementioned ease of Sheik

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Falcon's dash grab travels roughly 1/4 of FD. It has the range of a tether grab without the ending lag of one. It needs either half the range or significantly more ending lag.

His jab is also a tad too good, so much so that I see a lot of Falcon's just hold A after doing X move and avoiding a punish due to his jab's speed, range, and low ending lag.

Falcon's bait is honestly stupid. It auto cancels, deal 14%, and is safe on power shield for most characters. That's far too much safety for that much reward. Falcon should be a character that thrives off setting up 50/50s and getting reads with high risk/high reward moves, but some of him moves are too safe for how much reward they give.

These nerfs aren't to destroy him, and he'd definitely still be a viable character, he just wouldn't get away with a lot of the brain dead options that he currently has. As long as he's playing correctly, he would still get the same combos and strings.

You're going to turn him into Roy.

EDIT: I'm also going to say this: do we think needles by themselves are too much or do we think because if sheik's amazing frame data and low endlag in all her moves is what makes a pretty good projectile like needles more highlighted?

 

[Antonykun]

this thread has an unhealthy obsession with thinking that they know exactly how to nerf the top tiers :/
anyways Swordfighter, his skid animation is so long and his dash attack is so good that he can force a mixup of a dash animation skid
don't block: Attack
block: grab
jump: you jump depending on who and how they jumped

 

[Locke 06]

this thread has an unhealthy obsession with thinking that they know exactly how to nerf the top tiers :/
anyways Swordfighter, his skid animation is so long and his dash attack is so good that he can force a mixup of a dash animation skid
don't block: Attack
block: grab
jump: you jump depending on who and how they jumped

You could also do this when you stand still.

don't block: dash attack
block: dash grab
jump: you jump depending on who and how they jumped

Silly low tier trying to make a positive out of a really bad trait. Long live the butter knife.

 

[NairWizard]

Literally the only reason that Captain Falcon isn't the best character in the game is that some characters are too good in disadvantage. Falcon has a combination of the 2nd best advantaged state (the only better advantage is Fox, because of jab cancels, hello 2 frame move that sets up into KOs/30% damage, what even is that) and one of the best neutral games in the cast, probably 3rd or 4th best (Sheik and Fox are better, Rosalina+Luma is a close call).

Falcon in neutral is fierce and safe; he does not care about zoning because of his speed, he does not care about shield because of his dashgrab, he does not care about pressure because of jab, and he has mixups bulging out of his muscles. You can fastfall jab or turn around jab and beat most options that the cast has, but you can also falling up-air, b-air, crossup in one of a dozen+ ways, d-tilt, n-air, empty hop... Falcon's options go on and on. And the coverage on his aerials is mad strong, b-air and up-air and n-air combined create a mini death star of traps that do way too much damage overall. His bad disadvantaged state and recovery do not make up for his neutral and advantage against many members of the cast, even if he has even matchups such as vs. Yoshi. 14% off of a totally safe b-air that can be combo'd into at kill percents against light characters? Absurd.

The reason that Falcon doesn't break the game in half is that Pikachu, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus get out of disadvantage for free. The risk:reward ratio for these three characters (who can all edgeguard Falcon to some extent already) is distorted in their favor. If Pikachu did not have Quick Attack to get out of disadvantage then Falcon would be one of his hardest matchups, even with the edgeguard; onstage b-airs and jab shut Pikachu down pretty hard, it's just that Falcon can't follow up too well on him. I always lose neutral to great Falcons who aren't afraid of Pikachu's height pretty hard but still win overall just because I do 30-40% per string while Falcon only gets in one meaty 14% hit and is done, because Quick Attack is too good in disadvantage. And while Falcon's edgeguarding game is really strong, these characters just flat out do not care about it while edgeguarding him back.

This game is not fundamentally balanced. The top 20% of the cast phenomenally outperforms the remaining 80% in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral. Pikachu, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus vastly outescape everyone in disadvantage, for example: Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Quick Attack are the best moves in the game for that reason. Think about this. Literally almost the entire cast does not like to be offstage or in the air getting juggled, but these three characters often manage to treat it like it's neutral. Landing is too easy for them.

You have characters who are grossly overpowered in advantage (Ness, Luigi, Falcon, ZSS), and characters who are grossly overpowered in disadvantage (Pika, Sheik, ZSS), and then when you add in ridiculous neutral games due to Needles or Fireballs or Falcon's dashgrab (or in ZSS' case just advantage+disadvantage), they invalidate most of the lower tiers.

Character balance is good, better than it's ever been, but what Reflex says is absolutely true: the top tiers are playing a different game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

"Invalidating this" "invalidating that" "invalidating large chunk of cast" "invalidating 90% of cast" "invalidating cast with needles" "invalidating cast of mobility" "invalidating cast with Luma" " the sheik is unwinnable" "sheik does everything our character do, but better"
I know smash 4 is very similar to street fighter, but sheesh really? Is this what you guys think?

People just throw the word around.
Here's a good way to think of it.
Brawl MK wins hard against many characters.
Brawl Dedede invalidates many characters.

 

[Speed Boost]

Literally the only reason that Captain Falcon isn't the best character in the game is that some characters are too good in disadvantage. Falcon has a combination of the 2nd best advantaged state (the only better advantage is Fox, because of jab cancels, hello 2 frame move that sets up into KOs/30% damage, what even is that) and one of the best neutral games in the cast, probably 3rd or 4th best (Sheik and Fox are better, Rosalina+Luma is a close call).

Falcon in neutral is fierce and safe; he does not care about zoning because of his speed, he does not care about shield because of his dashgrab, he does not care about pressure because of jab, and he has mixups bulging out of his muscles. You can fastfall jab or turn around jab and beat most options that the cast has, but you can also falling up-air, b-air, crossup in one of a dozen+ ways, d-tilt, n-air, empty hop... Falcon's options go on and on. And the coverage on his aerials is mad strong, b-air and up-air and n-air combined create a mini death star of traps that do way too much damage overall. His bad disadvantaged state and recovery do not make up for his neutral and advantage against many members of the cast, even if he has even matchups such as vs. Yoshi. 14% off of a totally safe b-air that can be combo'd into at kill percents against light characters? Absurd.

The reason that Falcon doesn't break the game in half is that Pikachu, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus get out of disadvantage for free. The risk:reward ratio for these three characters (who can all edgeguard Falcon to some extent already) is distorted in their favor. If Pikachu did not have Quick Attack to get out of disadvantage then Falcon would be one of his hardest matchups, even with the edgeguard; onstage b-airs and jab shut Pikachu down pretty hard, it's just that Falcon can't follow up too well on him. I always lose neutral to great Falcons who aren't afraid of Pikachu's height pretty hard but still win overall just because I do 30-40% per string while Falcon only gets in one meaty 14% hit and is done, because Quick Attack is too good in disadvantage. And while Falcon's edgeguarding game is really strong, these characters just flat out do not care about it while edgeguarding him back.

This game is not fundamentally balanced. The top 20% of the cast phenomenally outperforms the remaining 80% in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral. Pikachu, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus vastly outescape everyone in disadvantage, for example: Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Quick Attack are the best moves in the game for that reason. Think about this. Literally almost the entire cast does not like to be offstage or in the air getting juggled, but these three characters often manage to treat it like it's neutral. Landing is too easy for them.

You have characters who are grossly overpowered in advantage (Ness, Luigi, Falcon, ZSS), and characters who are grossly overpowered in disadvantage (Pika, Sheik, ZSS), and then when you add in ridiculous neutral games due to Needles or Fireballs or Falcon's dashgrab (or in ZSS' case just advantage+disadvantage), they invalidate most of the lower tiers.

Character balance is good, better than it's ever been, but what Reflex says is absolutely true: the top tiers are playing a different game.

I 100% agree with everything you said here. I also think that we should be incredibly happy with the quality of the product Sakurai and his team have put forth. This roster is huge, and it has a balanced top tier 11ish characters strong...that's amazing.

The fact is that the top 1/2 of this roster is "competitive" with each other for the most part. Aside from the usual suspects there are characters like Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, Olimar, Greninja, Bowser Jr, Pacman, Duck Hunt, ROB, Meta Knight, Wario, Yoshi and Kirby have had a fair amount of success. Maybe they aren't all being represented in the top 8 at majors, but they have shown they can compete with the top tiers at a high level.

If you take customs into account this list grows longer with characters like DK, Palutena, and Brawler.

Add those to 11 or so top tiers and you have closer to half the cast that has shown to be viable. Many of us watched Nario forgo ZSS in GF at KTAR for Pits to take on Dabuz and his Sheik. If a character as honest as Pit can take on Sheik at that level this game is in a good place.

Not saying that @ NairWizard was saying its not, FYI.

 

[PK Gaming]

My own opinion on the matter is that, more so than these flaws, Robin's main weakness is that they crumble against high-tiers. That's a weakness that unfortunately can't really be mitigated no matter the skill level (recall that Nairo regards the Robin / Sheik matchup as near-unwinnable for Robin), and why I will ultimately agree that Robin's potential is fundamentally crippled at a certain point.

I don't think Robin's a terrible character, and I would be extremely reluctant to put them in the bottom five or even ten. I will acknowledge, though, that they need significant buffs or an outright overhaul of their unique mechanic if they're going to get anywhere beyond "decent" viability.

Sorry to have to break it to you man, but having horrible matchups against pretty much all of the best characters in the game more or less confirms that Robin a bad character. It's also worth noting that his tournament presence is fairly abysmal, and outright nonexistent in Japan.

Hate to say it, but there's just no angle where Robin comes out as even a decent character.

 

[BadDeku]

I suppose when you put falcon's options in the perspective of someone who mains a low tier character falcon can seem absolutely ridiculous. Still, I feel the amount of options and freedom falcon has while having such obvious and exploitable weaknesses is pretty damn awesome and I kind of whish every character was balanced to a similar level. I think every falcon main can agree that falcon's dash grab and back air are what's keeping him at all competitively viable as well as just an interesting and dynamic character (his grab and throws have such interesting mechanics to them and make his combos vary based on matchups and how you set up for grabs and I just think that's interesting). I do agree it's hilariously stupid when back air kills at like 100% when the moves is so ridiculously safe in neutral, so nerfing that moves kill power might make him less "mindless," but now with up air nerfed, captain falcon's kill power is even more over rated. It's not like many side smashes are going to net kills in high level play. He has knee set ups I guess and he can have brutal ledge gaurds on some matchups (poor, poor donkey kong) but once again, high tiers really give him trouble here. Also I don't know if you guys realize how essential captain falcon's dash grab is, without its admittedly silly physics he's really not the same character. He really wouldn't be able to rely on throws for follow ups if he didn't have his sliding momentum bringing him closer to his opponent during his throw's ending lag.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sorry to have to break it to you man, but having horrible matchups against pretty much all of the best characters in the game more or less confirms that Robin a bad character. It's also worth noting that his tournament presence is fairly abysmal, and outright nonexistent in Japan.

Hate to say it, but there's just no angle where Robin comes out as even a decent character.

Well look at the bright side. He beats DK :3

 

[TriTails]

Luigi does not have 'ridiculous neutral'...

Fireballs are a BIG boon, sure. But zoning are a thing, he can't simply ignore them like Falcon. B-air is his only safe aerial on shield, and even then it has to be spaced. Luigi's dash attack suck, he also has that mobility. He is nowhere near excellent in neutral, let alone ridiculous. Sure, Ganon and D3 cry, but you have to take into account that a lot of top tiers and high tiers have answers to Fireball spammings, and often beat him in neutral. Reflectors are also a thing, Luigi can't spam them mindlessly against them.

His reward also justifiable. Taking that advantage out is like replacing Ganon's power with the ones of Pit's. He has below-average dashing speed (Though, it's quite close to average), and what's this, he's slower than Ganon in the air. Ganon has really long limbs and fair share of safe on shield moves. Sure, stuffs like PP may be able to help Luigi out, but his mobility specs are *** enough that I don't think he needs any changes in that regard, and range.

If anything, Luigi is one of the examples on how characters should be designed in this game. Great strengths, major weaknesses. He does not win a lot of 65:35 MUs, nor he does lose many 35:65 MUs. Other examples woulld be Pit and Mario. Pit has balanced stats in just about everything, and I'm sure none of his MUs go anywhere higher than 4:6 to 6:4. Mario is now a speedy weak guy, but his MU spread also don't involve him hard-countering characters, nor he does get hard-countered himself. Luigi, Pit, and Mario don't invalidate characters (Luigi doesn't even come close on invalidating Ganon).

And BTW, Luigi is not easy to play.

 

[ARGHETH]

Well look at the bright side. He beats DK :3

So he's not completely hopeless instead of terrible.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

's neutral is also hindered by his awful short hop in my opinion.

 

[TriTails]

's neutral is also hindered by his awful short hop in my opinion.

Luigi's shorthop.

Awful?

Urh... Well, Luigi's shorthop jumps over Charizard's Flare Blitz, Greninja's fully charged Water Shurikens, has a perfect height to AC 2 F-airs, dodges ground things like a pro, jumps above Sheik's needles and give him enough time to retalitate with a Fireball, makes every of his aerials AC, puts him on his ideal height (Just above the ground). It can also be used to time your Fireballs so they go over Luma, hit Sheik while she is using her needles, stop a lot of aerial approaches, and more.

Luigi's shorthop literally is one of his greatest assets. Dunno how different it is compared to others but it sure gives hella lot of options and usefulnesses.

 

[shadowmm151]

On the topic of the hypothetical Falcon nerf...I think it's unnecessary.

Characters all have different styles. Some are strong. Some are fast. Some combo well. Some zone better. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Falcon is a glass cannon. His offense is stupid strong, but on the other hand is defense balances it out. Sure a lot of people spam Falcon to trash scrubs, but at higher levels Falcon is left in a bad position against safe characters. But no matter how safe a character is, if Falcon can get in...he can very quickly take a stock. I feel that NO OTHER CHARACTER can take stocks as quickly as Falcon. I have literally seen Falcon decimate an opponent's 2 stocks in less than 30 seconds...AFTER having been wrecked for multiple minutes.

Why worry about nerfing a character like Falcon who is fundamentally sound? Sure his offense is strong, but since he can easily be kicked around like a ragdoll than wouldn't you say that he's actually far more balanced than many other characters? Why not buff a handful of the ones who NEED help or nerf a few facets of the top tiers whose weaknesses are too small to really be considered weaknesses.

I think Falcon was actually designed fantastically and should stay exactly how he is now.

 

[Teshie U]

^I feel like Mii Brawler operates similarly but without the massive weight and safety.

 

[Browny]

Luigi's shorthop.

Awful?

Urh... Well, Luigi's shorthop jumps over Charizard's Flare Blitz, Greninja's fully charged Water Shurikens, has a perfect height to AC 2 F-airs, dodges ground things like a pro, jumps above Sheik's needles and give him enough time to retalitate with a Fireball, makes every of his aerials AC, puts him on his ideal height (Just above the ground). It can also be used to time your Fireballs so they go over Luma, hit Sheik while she is using her needles, stop a lot of aerial approaches, and more.

Luigi's shorthop literally is one of his greatest assets. Dunno how different it is compared to others but it sure gives hella lot of options and usefulnesses.

Having a high short hop is a bad thing and when its really... really slow like luigis, hes just asking to get smacked with projectiles for ever leaving the ground.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

 

[Moderate skill]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

That's pretty interesting. It does involve connecting with side B, though, so it doesn't really sound like a huge advantage in the Rosalina matchup. That being said, I don't use either character very often and I dismissed side B as too laggy long ago. Maybe the actual Pit mains will disagree with me?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

I'm obviously not dabuz but I do play Rosalina. For me it doesn't matter if you can ohko luma or not (it can be annoying ). What matters is the risk/commitment involved. Something like pit side B is a huge commitment and leaves him easy to punish. The characters that do the best against Rosalina have very low commitment options that pressure rosa and kill Luma. Also high mobility.

Also a lot of characters dash attack one shots luma that doesn't swing the mu for them.

 

[Wintropy]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

It's an interesting thought experiment, though I think Pit has very slightly better matchups across the board than Dark Pit. The controllable arrows and f-tilt KO option are fairly non-trivial in themselves, at least in my (and, based on many matchup tables that consider Pit to be near-universally albeit minimally above Dark Pit, others') experience.

Whether that would be enough to keep Pit at the higher tier, or whether Dark Pit's one significantly better matchup against a top-tier character would be enough to reconsider his place in the metagame, remains to be determined.

I'd be interested in Dabuz's opinion for sure, though I wonder how Nairo feels about it?

 

[Kofu]

On the topic of the hypothetical Falcon nerf...I think it's unnecessary.

Characters all have different styles. Some are strong. Some are fast. Some combo well. Some zone better. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Falcon is a glass cannon. His offense is stupid strong, but on the other hand is defense balances it out. Sure a lot of people spam Falcon to trash scrubs, but at higher levels Falcon is left in a bad position against safe characters. But no matter how safe a character is, if Falcon can get in...he can very quickly take a stock. I feel that NO OTHER CHARACTER can take stocks as quickly as Falcon. I have literally seen Falcon decimate an opponent's 2 stocks in less than 30 seconds...AFTER having been wrecked for multiple minutes.

Why worry about nerfing a character like Falcon who is fundamentally sound? Sure his offense is strong, but since he can easily be kicked around like a ragdoll than wouldn't you say that he's actually far more balanced than many other characters? Why not buff a handful of the ones who NEED help or nerf a few facets of the top tiers whose weaknesses are too small to really be considered weaknesses.

I think Falcon was actually designed fantastically and should stay exactly how he is now.

His disadvantage is horrible but that doesn't exactly make him a glass cannon. He's frustratingly resilient and if you don't manage to edge guard him he's likely to be sticking around for a while.

I think you've got the right idea, but in practice someone like Mewtwo is more of a true glass cannon.

 

[NickRiddle]

Hi, I'm a Lucario main, and your Up-B rustles my ****ing jimmies.

-Signed,

Dead off the top at 45


Also since were talking about frame data,

Why does a character who thrives off surviving tie/come 2nd for MOST vulnerability frames for all his defensive options? Thank god Ryu's air dodge sucks so Lucario doesn't take last in 2/3 categories now.

You should probably learn to DI if you're dying at 45% consistently~~

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You should probably learn to DI if you're dying at 45% consistently~~

I kinda feel the same way about Weegee's Cyclone. Like, I've always managed to DI it in such a way that I almost never get bopped by the ending animation. I literally fall out of it when I do, even at supposed kill percents. I dunno why everybody's annoyed by it.

Am I missing something here? Are the Weegees I'm going up against not setting it up right?

Smooth Criminal

 

[NickRiddle]

I kinda feel the same way about Weegee's Cyclone. Like, I've always managed to DI it in such a way that I almost never get bopped by the ending animation. I literally fall out of it when I do, even at supposed kill percents. I dunno why everybody's annoyed by it.

Am I missing something here? Are the Weegees I'm going up against not setting it up right?

Smooth Criminal

Different levels of Luigi mashing make it easier/more difficult.
DIing down+away will make you stop dying at 45 80% of the time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do.

Would one aspect of one match up affect a character's standing that much? Don't Pit and Dark Pit kind of go back and forth with match ups anyways with Pit being overall better by a slim margin? Maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly because the situation isn't as stark as, say, Brawl Dedede vs Brawl DK where literally one aspect determined the whole match up: get grabbed once and you're SOLLOLGITGUDSONURDUN. If Luma stayed dead (could you imagine how different the current metagame would be if Rosalina was one Luma per stock?) I could see it being a big game changer but I will admit that I don't know much about this match up. Is it particularly bad for Pit/Edgy Pit?

 

[Nysyr]

You should probably learn to DI if you're dying at 45% consistently~~

Yeah, just like we should learn to DI fox's jab infinite.

Or maybe, just maybe, you can't DI this move at certain %'s?

JK doesn't matter since if you are grabbed at the ledge you die off the side anyways at slightly later %s. But hey I guess U-Air + Up-B autocombos are fair right.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You mash down to get out of the Luigi Tornado if you're trapped in it in the air. Also, Uair to Up B... with Luigi? I've never seen this and I sincerely doubt it's a true combo at any percentage, regardless of the character. Uair to Up B with Mario I've seen plenty of but Luigi?

 

[Wintropy]

Would one aspect of one match up affect a character's standing that much? Don't Pit and Dark Pit kind of go back and forth with match ups anyways with Pit being overall better by a slim margin? Maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly because the situation isn't as stark as, say, Brawl Dedede vs Brawl DK where literally one aspect determined the whole match up: get grabbed once and you're SOLLOLGITGUDSONURDUN. If Luma stayed dead (could you imagine how different the current metagame would be if Rosalina was one Luma per stock?) I could see it being a big game changer but I will admit that I don't know much about this match up. Is it particularly bad for Pit/Edgy Pit?

Rosalina / (Dark) Pit?

I think it's a pretty tough matchup for Pit, though I've seen players on both sides dispute it. Dark Pit definitely has the advantage, in that Electroshock Arm is essentially Bye-Bye Luma: The Move.

In contrast, unless Luma is already softened up by the time the moves connects, Upperdash Arm just tosses it into the sky...where it can thereafter gently tumble back down, totally unencumbered except for a few hit points knocked off. It's more of a minor inconvenience for Rosalina than anything, especially since it leaves Pit wide open for punishment if he uses it when Luma is within grabbing distance of Rosalina.

Thing is that, even without Luma, Rosie isn't particularly debunked. She can still hold her own against the Pits reasonably comfortably, though I do think the Pits have the upper hand when Solo!Rosie comes into play.

Upperdash might have the advantage in that case, since it kills Rosie pretty early, but that's a contingency dependent on getting Luma out of the way first. I would definitely prioritise forcing Rosie into a solo situation, ergo I think Dark Pit has the upper hand here.

 

[Dabuz]

New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

The only reason Dark Pit exists in this game is so "Pit" has a good matchup vs. Rosa .-.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, just like we should learn to DI fox's jab infinite.

Or maybe, just maybe, you can't DI this move at certain %'s?

JK doesn't matter since if you are grabbed at the ledge you die off the side anyways at slightly later %s. But hey I guess U-Air + Up-B autocombos are fair right.

But on a serious note: Maybe we should learn to establish counterplay/ways around things.

...instead of ********

Smooth Criminal