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That's not the definition of viable. Any match up is winnable. It is a matter of how likely you are to win, and thus how likely you are to consistently place, that determines viability.
Can confirm. I feel like Kirby could have a fine matchup against Luigi, if it wasn't for the fact that dthrow->downB is a guaranteed kill from anywhere on the stage at like 80% and higher. I have taken the local Luigi to last hit many times, and always eventually lose because I eventually will get grabbed (you can't separate Luigi from his hands, like you could separate Ice Climbers
) so his setups are guaranteed, unlike mine. Like in the last 2 stock Bo3 I played, I got it to game 3 last stock, and I lost 5 stocks throughout the set, and probably 4 of those were Dthrow cyclone. But yeah he's confirmed that it's harder to do on fastfalling, heavy characters like Megaman.So yeah, this.
Luigi clearly isn't top 3. If it weren't for Dthrow cyclone, I feel like even Kirby would have an advantaged matchup against him, because it's so easy to get around fireballs and Luigi's poor mobility/poor shielding due to traction. And as we were just saying, Dthrow->Cyclone is less devastating on heavier/fastfalling characters, most of which are higher tier than fat floaties like M2/Kirby/Jiggs. Also, Luigi's disadvantage is really bad. Yeah Nair is a great combo breaker, but when you know it's his only option, you just have to shield and punish. He doesn't have the airspeed or "get out of jail free" card like Diddy/ZSS/Sheik/Pikachu have. Heck, last time I played against a Luigi, I was able to constantly beat his Nair with Kirby's Upair, which completely confused me, because Nair is notorious for having a ridiculous hitbox, and Kirby's aerials are notorious (in my eyes) for his feet not being disjointed, and being part of his hurtbox. \(o_o)/Luigi's neutral game is perhaps his biggest weakness in smash 4. Sure he's a annoying little **** that escape combos and combo you back even worse(
Edit: Also luigi being top 3 is pretty debateable. At one hand luigi has all these bad matchups in theory but at another he has all these amazing tourney results
If Luigi can consistently gimp Falcon with Cyclone, it might be scary, but otherwise I think Falcon might win. Falcon's safe-on-shield Bair becomes even safer because of Luigi's traction, and his speed will be hard for Luigi to react to, regardless of fireballs. It's probably close to even.what do you guys think of
But lugi combos falcon harder than falcon combos luigi. capt. falcon has to play more precise, since if he misses up, lugi goes to work on him. I think this MU goes to lugi since he has more margins of error to work with.
would you say Matchups>Tiers? as in, it's more important that you know Match-ups more than which character is the best and the worst? That's kinda what my mind is atmViability describes how likely a character is to be winning tourneys. I base my tier lists always on actual results, matchups, and suspected viability. The difference in tiers describes viability. As you go from S to G in my list, it only means those characters in lower tiers are less likely to win any tourneys compared to the ones above them. I think I did a fair job putting characters in respective tiers even if the position within that tier isn't super accurate yet.
Overall, I feel like my tier list is accurate for the tiers, but the order can change within the tier as people adapt and patches happen.
Seagull Joe
For patched characters: Ike has gotten 3rd in a 80+ tournament, Ryo has continued to win his tournaments in Florida, Ringo got top 5 in a 100+ tournament, a few of the lower level Ikes are starting to place top 3 in locals a lot more often as well. If you take the word of other top players into consideration, Zero says Ike is either the very top of mid or more likely high tier now.
I'm going to be a smart *** because it's fun.Have any of those characters done anything in tournaments since the patch? Honestly curious here. Has
Ryo's area (Gainesville) is notably not that great. Where are these other tourneys@
In this topic there was a list of characters that have won regionals recently, Falco was on that list. Don't know the details, but he was there.
Nairo has pulled out a Lucina. Largely for trolling, but results are results if you want to go that route. You already have the Marth result, I'm not up to date on Charizard or Link, though the Link position looks fine (with Toon Link being very weirdly placed but that's not patch related)
and are doing well? Some areas are NOT good. in tourney. He'd outright lose.All of those brackets lacked good players. Not a good example.I'm going to be a smart *** because it's fun.
Ally went through a tournament with mostly Falco and ended with Mario during grand finals against an Olimar and Dr. Mario for Project Playhem 16 with the playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg44i0CClXG6MN6Zhsv21IoO4M3UkKc3x. Rayquaza, the Rosalina player, wasn't there, so how you would view that is up to you. Keitaro has been taking 2nd at The Break's weeklies with Falco after the patch and after a stream goal was met locking Keitaro to only use Falco for July and at EVO; first tournament for his Falco streak started here: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Attila_ or BIGBOSS as he's known now took 1st a regional in Australia with Falco. Eshura took 1st against Max Ketchum at for this tournament in Colorado and Cyro also took 9th at at Fire & Dice's Smash or Die Young 6.
They're weeklies with 1 regional which isn't anything different from pre-patch. His aerials are safer, more reliable, and faster, that's it. Falco didn't get a magical buff that lead to these tournament wins. I think it's more of the players' skill rather than the patch having to do with anything major for Falco. The patch more or less was an improved quality of life thing for Falco rather than something like patch 1.1.1: Falco runs as fast as DK.
Even before the patch, Falco could place in the around top 15 even with stacked tournaments - well, relative to the scene. Gamegenie been doing fine with his Falco, Robin, and Lucina, Kato and Liquid place decently at CA's tournaments, and Zanryo, Domino, and Dao place well at TX's. Eshura took out Fishbait's Captain Falcon, Fox, and last resort Marth for 1st before the patch where Falco's Uair was still frame 10, Fair was frame 12 and had 32 frames of landing lag, and Nair didn't connect well. Happened on June 6 - just 8 days before the patch came out. At the same time, you have to consider this: Fishbait's apparently not in Colorado anymore or in the competitive scene anymore. He was #1 for Colorado's PR, but if he's not there, then does it really "count"? His play during grand finals wasn't spectacular compared to his past plays. It was like he was breaking down and worn out which considering Falco's punish options and Fishbait pulling out Marth of all characters can be used against Falco winning anything.
The patch were quality of life stuff to Charizard, Falco, Ike, Link, Lucina, Marth, and Meta Knight. Some of them were already strong characters like Ike and Meta Knight, others got better tools like Charizard, Link, Lucina, and Marth, and one of them became a safer character in the air, Falco. If a patch 1.1.0 made it so Marth did on average, 10% more with tippers and 5% more with sour-spots, so a tipper Side Smash does 28% uncharged, then maybe that would shoot Marth up. Maybe not top tier, but that kind of power would be considered broken to say the least.
Difference here is that
has the mobility to actively pressure, whereas 's screw-ups are guaranteed combo-food for. Yes, you could argue that has the Fireballs to keep him at bay, butcan simply jump over them forcingto actively do something else instead of zone him out. That, and Dashgrab being better than 's also isn't in the Green Machine's favor. i does grab , that's a basically a free 40-50% combo going (This is the highest I've gotten with Vs. while near the edge and led to an offstage combo), and almost all of Falcon's aerials cannot compete with N-air or F-air.
Personally, the characters are so similar that if you are a Pit ain, you are, by definition, a Dark Pit main. Other than Ftilt, arrows, and Electroshock they are the same character. So in terms of a tier list, I'd just put them as the same character because as a whole if I mained Pit I would switch to Dark Pit for the Rosalina matchup. He is by far the most clone-y clone in all of Smash unless you count Nana as a clone of Popo or something.New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?
The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.
I wonder how @Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?
I mean...in tournament, matchups are far more important then knowing which characters are top, high, mid, and low tier. You can lose to a low tier if you aren't familiar with the matchup or you get outplayed. Happens from time to time. In brawl I mained
. I knew almost all my matchups very much so. I had to outplay opponents and use the knowledge of my character and lack of knowledge my opponent had to win some of the time. into smash 4 people!
Fair enough mate. I do agree that
can infact be very overrated at times without customs. However imo villager should at the very least be a top 15 character.
Wolf had a decent Metaknight matchup didn't he? Like above average at least iirc which was extremely important in Brawl.I mean...in tournament, matchups are far more important then knowing which characters are top, high, mid, and low tier. You can lose to a low tier if you aren't familiar with the matchup or you get outplayed. Happens from time to time. In brawl I mained
Also: Make sure to vote
I did make a point on how when Ally used Falco, Rayquaza wasn't there and since I'm not familiar with Michigan, so probably their good players weren't there either. The matches Ally had with his Falco were curbstomps where Ally's skill as a player destroyed the other player. Eshura's good, but when Fishbait's not there, I don't remember seeing any of the other Colorado PR members at the recent tournament and only Max Ketchum and Toronto Joe? - pretty sure he's a good Fox player - were there... So, three good players and then the others. Keitaro's good, but False is much better which leads to something like you or Boss taking S@X when Snow, VaBengal, or a visitor like Nairo isn't there. The times Larry Lurr used his Falco were also curbstomps against "no-names".All of those brackets lacked good players. Not a good example.
Like I said, I don't know about Michigan's scene which is sad since I live a state over. Not sure about Seagull knowing. Forgot about LOE1, though. He gave Ally a run for his money at the recent E2C tournament.
Seagull Joe
It's less about player skill and more about MUs. To contend with Attila you have Earl, V, Shaya. Luke, Waveguider, and more (EDIT: lawl tortologies). Falco's worst MU is Rosalina, which Australia lacks a good player for. I can't remember but if Falco lacks a good MU against Sheik, Pika, Sonic or Luigi, then that made it even better. It's true that much of the time you're playing a player more than a character, but I believe this does have the ability to affect results.
and , so take that as you may.
(Suppose I was a sham! :3 )Depending on much less endling and landing lag they would decide to give her that could just make her better than marth. Less landing lag and ending lag on aerials is something they both desperately need.
Seagull Joe
I think you wanted results. When people gave you results you started calling out people's scenes. Which isn't cool. It's not as though your region is a powerhouse.
Ffamran
mentioned crack, I've been fiending hard. Thinking about doing some crimes.
It still true that the people you take the win against are more important than the win itself@
(Rosalina and her Luma are insanely powerful. Some good aerials, the best spacing tools in the game, Up Air ridiculous range, pretty strong Smash Attacks and a good recovery. With his little Luma she is pretty strong. The thing you need to know is that Rosalina without Luma is actually a C tier character. And that's really bad. She gets down from the top tiers, to the bottom tiers. She is just so godlike with his Luma and her powered up Smash Attacks or any attacks in general. But when she's alone she isn't that great anymore. And then we get to Sheik. Without a doubt the best character in the game. She does require a little bit of practice to get used to her. Bouncing Fish has to be one of the most effective edge guarding tools in the game. She just goes so far with so little effort. And she can come back to the stage with no problem whatsoever. She also has an insane Forward Air that can be auto canceled and it can just go almost to the end of the stage and finish you off with a Bouncing Fish. Needles are really good for pressure, her aerials doesn't have any lag at all, She can do strings of Forward Tilts and then continue with some Forward Airs or Up Airs, Amazing grabs (Down Throw and Forward Throw). Tipper Up Smash kills pretty early, And she can even do a bait with Down Throw. She throws you with Down Throw, jumps and then she does her teleport and takes the stock. She can also go really deep for a kill and still get back on the stage. She is just amazing with everything she does and almost no one can stop her. And she gets even better with Customs. (I don't think some of this characters need explanation. But even then I'll still do it. Sonic has a really good mind game with Spin Dashes, can block almost inmediatily with Spin Dash into Shield, good aerials, good smash attacks. Spring is good for pursuits in the air, the fastest character in the game, good pivot grabbing and good specials. He's a damn solid character but he loses to the top tiers and has a really hard time againts R.O.B. Luigi is still here because even with his bad match-ups he still has an amazing combo game. Fireballs are still a good cover for him and a free grab if they are normal blocked and he gets the job done on Mario pretty easily. And Mario is one of the most balanced characters in the game and he still loses to Luigi. Ness also has a pretty good combo game with grabs and Forward Air, Neutral Air is stupidly fast and a good out of shield option. Can absorb energy projectiles and has good specials. Only downside: He can be gimped really easy thanks to his poor recovery. Since his only chance is PK Thunder. Pikachu is one of the masters of how to combo. Insane combo and damage output. Not because his attacks are strong. But because he can rack them up so fast and so safely. Quick Attack has to be the best teleport in the game and he is a master at recovering on the stage. But here's the thing: You can kill Pikachu easily because he is a lightweight. So you need to concentrate againts him and don't lose control. That way you will kill him no matter how hard he tries to kill you because Pikachu does have trouble killing. Villager is an amazing zoning character with good aerials and now with a Throw Combo. He has a pretty good recovery and his tree is a good gimmick move to kill people. He gets beated by reflector/fast characters though. Zero Suit Samus is almost an S tier character. She also has one of the best movesets in the game. Amazing aerials, Some of the best Special moves in the game, pretty good ground attacks. Then what the hell she isn't in the S tier list? Pretty simple: Her grab. She has a pretty bad and laggy grab that doesn't let her get into her bread and butter combos like Down Throw into Up Air, Up Air, Up B. Or Back Throw into Down B (Only at certain percents in some specific characters). (Lucas is here because I think he does deserve more recognition. He also has some of the best throws in the entire game and his neutral air strings are pretty insane. PK Fire is a good zoning move, his aerials have disjoints and don't have too much lag. Mario is a pretty balanced character and easy to pick up. He has a really good spread of match-ups in the entire game and he has a little bit of chance on beating the S Tiers. Captain Falcon has an insane neutral and some of the best movesets in the entire game. But his disavantages againts some characters are really bad. Fox is here because he does have a good neutral game and can rack-up damage really easily. Also his Jab combo into Up Air is still ridiculous for me. But it's quite good. Diddy Kong even with his nerfs it's still strong and viable. Banana is just an amazing tool for him and we keep seeing new stuff from him. (I putted Peach in here because since she hasn't been explored, she has some good potential. I have seen some pretty good peaches in For Glory and have played other peaches in online tourneys. The same goes for Yoshi and Megaman. They are pretty good characters but in other ways: Yoshi is good with his combos, spacing and his Neutral Air is pretty damn fast on shield. Megaman is a good zoning character that can kill other top tiers pretty easily. Like Captain Falcon. Roy has some really good damage outpot and some of the strongest Smash Attacks in the game. Specially Forward Smash. Not at Tipper Marth level but it's still pretty good.) (The Mid-High Tier characters. Link has improved pretty nicely and you need to be more careful when you approach him. The same with Ike. Bowser.Jr has some unexplored. Falco also got some really good buffs that make him get in here. And Wario because he has some pretty good protection with his Bike and has some good attacks like Forward Air, Neutral Air, and his jab his good for spacing. Mii Gunner is a good spacing character too. But some of his attacks really have some bad hitboxes or aren't as good as other characters attacks. Marth is one of thoser characters that even though they change pretty often in the games, they can still be good. Marth has changed his playstyle from being a rush-down Sword Man, into a Punishing and edge guarding Sword Man. Now you need to play really smart with Marth. If you do calculate your choices and make good decisions on the match, you can win pretty easily with him. With his buffs to his jab now he has more options to space himself and even a Tippered Forward Smash confirm with a Jab Cancel or something like that. I don't like how Marth plays in this game. But even then I have to admit that the player and the chracter need to be smart and patient to be really good. Although I would recommend a secondary because Marth does have trouble with some match-ups like Fox, Captain Falcon or Sonic. Shulk has been a really long debate. Zero thinks that he's Top Tier with Customs. Other people say that he sucks. And other people just can't decide. I think that Shulk is a good character. His Monado Arts are pretty amazing and help him alot on his matches. Speed is really good for catching up with Sonic, Fox, Captain Falcon or Sheik. Jump is good for offstage pursuits and getting back on the stage. Shield makes him so heavy and hard to kill. But even then he can be gimped with a thrown or another gimmick attack like Mario's Cape or FLUDD. Buster is just amazing to rack up damage quickly and you can feel the satisfaction of getting every single hit while you have your Buster activated. And Smash art is uself to get some pretty early kills. If Shulk actually got some attack end lag reductions. He would easily be in any A Tier Class. His frame data just stops him from being one of the best characters in the game. (Middle tiers. Pit and Dark Pit are really good on their own. But you really do need a secondary character to be effective and have results. Kirby is the highest in here because he has pretty good air mobility, good aerials, good attacks and a pretty good recovery. The problem with him is that he has some bad Specials like Down B or Up B. With customs he is easily an A Tier. Charizard is in here thanks to his buffs and now he has more reliable tools to get damage. R.O.B has some good attacks and really nice frame traps like Down Throw into Up Air. But his problem is that you can pick-up his gyros and just block his laser. Duck Hunt Dog relies too heavily in proyectiles and he gets destroyed by fast characters. Although he can also zone them too. Grenina back in Smash 3DS days, was a top tier character. Good aerials, fast approach, a good projectile and damaging Smash Attacks. Then... The Greninja nerfs came. And he went from A or A+ tier to Middle Tier. He hasn't had a good time around this days. But even then he's still a really solid character. He still has his good approaches and good aerials. But he doesn't have the killing power he had in 3DS days. Mr. Game and Watch has some good aerials, nice recovery and some good ground attacks. But he's a lightweight. So he can't compete properly since he gets killed to early and sooo many times. If he was given more weight and better ground attacks. He would be pretty solid. Even go to A- Tier. Lucina is still a Marth Clone and though I don't like this at all. She still has the good aerials that Marth does, only with less damage and no tipper. I would love her to be faster than Marth so that way we could get a difference between them. Even then Lucina can still do good in a tournament. You could use a secondary with her though. (Getting tired of explanations X_X. Jigglypuff has a really good aerial mobility and good aerials. But she isn't so strong on the ground and gets killed pretty easily. Although Jiggly mains can be good enough to avoid being killed so easily. Olimar is pretty good on the ground and has some good match-ups with Top Tier characters. But then he gets destroyed by other characters like Sonic, Pikachu, Little Mac and many more. Toon Link has some good projectiles and with them a good mind game. But he has some laggy attacks and his down air is not good at all. King Dedede has to be one of the best heavyweights in the game. Good pokes, a good spacing game with Gordos, Forward Tilt and he even has some combos. But he gets destroyed by combo characters like Captain Falcon, Sonic, Fox or Falco. Then can reflect the Gordo back to King Dedede and even kill him with that. And he can't survive the entire eternity when he's fighting a combo character. Samus has some favorable match-ups againts Top Tiers and good aerials. Up Air is really good for pursuits in the air, and now she has an improved Up Smash, which helps her nicely. Her projectiles are good but have nasty end lag. She needs more development to be more effective. Bowser back in Smash 3DS was said to be the best character in the game, everyone though that he had some good aerials and an amazing killing power. Part of this is still true. He still has a pretty good killing power and he has one of the best jabs in the game. But his problems are in the air: He can't land in any safe way. His aerials doesn't let him land on the stage properly and he gets killed off the stage pretty easily. Although he can be really good at the ground and at killing. He lacks a good way to protect himself. Donkey Kong also has this problem. But not as bad as Bowser. He also has some good attacks and a really good Back Air. Also his Cargo combos got so much better and now you have to be careful when you battle him. He's still pretty weak on the air though) (Ganondorf is pretty damn strong and can have a really good control of his personal space. You can't combo him pretty easily thanks to his jab and Forward Tilt, Side B is still good even when it's now teachable on the ground and Down B is good for Shield Punishes. He can also combo Down Throw into Down B. So it's good damage. He has a really really poor recovery though. So he really needs to keep himself on the field. Wii Fit Trainer is entertaining to use and she can be used nicely on a tournament. But the player needs so much time to learn how to use her properly. And even then, she still doesn't reguard you so much. Zelda does have some good aerials like Neutral Air, Forward Air and Back Air when they are sweetspotted. She has some decent ground attacks. But when compared to the rest of the cast... She is pretty bad. But even then she can still be a decent or good character. You just need to put effort into it. Mewtwo has a better chance of being a better character. Because his Neutral Air is even better and if he reads you only once. You can get into really big trouble. Mewtwo has some good moves like Forward Air, Back Air or Up Air. Side B has to be the best reflector in the game. Because it comes out so quick and it can damage the opponent so badly. Mewtwo is actually a read based character. He can be really good when you read your opponent almost perfecly. But his weigh problem is what keeps him from even being a Middle Tier. Palutena also has some good attacks and some decent ones (Up Tilt is a good anti air.) And she can also do some Down Throw combos. Not as good as other characters combos but she does have some. At high percents: Down Throw into Up Air and it kills. And I think it's a true combo. But her other moves just suck really badly. Side and Down Smash are just plain awful and need an speed and range increase. Up Smash is only good for Anti-Air and edgeguards. She does have one of the fastest meteor smashes in the game. And her Specials are also really awful. She only gets good with customs. Robin is a character that can be good but only if they butff his run speed and ground attacks. His aerials are good and he has good specials. But his speed is just so damn bad. And the last one: Little Mac. Advice: NEVER SLEEP ON A LITTLE MAC. Little Mac has to be one of the best ground characters in the game, incredible ground attacks frame data, huge kill power, armor Smash Attacks, Decent Specials and the KO Punch is a game changer. Down Tilt into KO Punch? That is pretty damn good. The problem with Little Mac is that he's the worst in the air. He just can't survive when he's off the stage. He needs his Side B from 3DS days back. And if you want, discuss with my own list or whatever.
Heck no. I will not stand for that. Lucina is the casual player's Marth, no need for her to out perform the veteran. If they wanted to make up for the shorter range (which there is barely a difference) they would increase her shorter range to Marth's level (except where character height is the reason for the difference).
etc and characters like and more, or the gap between characters like (customs off this is just a good example, customs on Pally is beautiful) and and who have dedicated mains and do make splashes occasionally or in some areas.
Only Fair has more end lag. Landing lag is super important but the thing they need the most are real autocancel windows. They were stripped of their godly Melee and Brawl ACs. Robin literally stole them, in fact.
See, this is the problem with tier lists made by one person.
hypersonicJD
Since when was this a thing?
He got Top 5 at an event with something like six actively good players there. It was a convention event where everyone but the top 8 were casual players entering for fun. Not really the best representation of Ike's potential there.
And what I said implies that Marth is supposed to be slightly better because he takes more work. It wouldn't make sense to make tippers less rewarding by buffing the clone character that Sakurai stated was created for people who didn't want to deal with tipper spacing.
things like this is why i think greninja players lurk this thread all the time.
Of all flaws to point out in Greninja, kill power?
FullMoon
what are your thoughts on the greninja vs lil mac mu?
