Character Competitive Impressions

[NickRiddle]

Yeah, just like we should learn to DI fox's jab infinite.

Or maybe, just maybe, you can't DI this move at certain %'s?

JK doesn't matter since if you are grabbed at the ledge you die off the side anyways at slightly later %s. But hey I guess U-Air + Up-B autocombos are fair right.

One is SDI, the other is holding a direction... Not even comparable...
I mean, sorry DI is really hard, holding down and away is a very tiring thing.

But on a serious note: Maybe we should learn to establish counterplay/ways around things.

...instead of ********

Smooth Criminal

I'm going to be doing videos after EVO about counterplay to some things; I will probably be making a thread somewhere asking for video topics.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I kinda feel the same way about Weegee's Cyclone. Like, I've always managed to DI it in such a way that I almost never get bopped by the ending animation. I literally fall out of it when I do, even at supposed kill percents. I dunno why everybody's annoyed by it.

Am I missing something here? Are the Weegees I'm going up against not setting it up right?

Smooth Criminal

It's possible to get out of the cyclone but some characters are too floaty to do it. Specifically, I think Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can't escape it [at least I've never managed to do it with them] but most characters should be able to do it if you manage to sneak in enough down + away inputs before the final hit connects. If you play DDD/Ryu it's probably not that hard to get ou.

The only reason Dark Pit exists in this game is so "Pit" has a good matchup vs. Rosa .-.

... so yeah, Dark Pit > Pit?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, I kinda figured it had to be character-specific to a point. D3's fatass fallspeed probably contributes to falling out so easily after proper DI (which, funnily, I kinda intuitively guessed? Haha). Thanks, Gheb, explains a lot.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Baby_Sneak]

But on a serious note: Maybe we should learn to establish counterplay/ways around things.

...instead of ********

Smooth Criminal

Impossible. It's the only thing we know how to do. :/

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah, I kinda figured it had to be character-specific to a point. D3's fatass fallspeed probably contributes to falling out so easily after proper DI (which, funnily, I kinda intuitively guessed? Haha). Thanks, Gheb, explains a lot.

Smooth Criminal

That's so backwards in my head because DDD is so big.

 

[FullMoon]

I think the only MU where Dark Pit is better than Pit is Rosalina. The other ones I think having more versatile arrows and Upperdash Arm as a more reliable kill move probably gives Pit an easier time against pretty much everybody else.

I guess Electroshock is useful for getting Little Mac offstage but -shrug-

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That's so backwards in my head because DDD is so big.

You'd think, and what you're insinuating is right, but...

As Shaya said, "falling with style" has its advantages.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sir Tundra]

Luigi's neutral game is perhaps his biggest weakness in smash 4. Sure he's a annoying little **** that escape combos and combo you back even worse( vs in a nutshell) but he get's zoned out pretty easy compared since he doesn't have the speed to approach. Luigi's best approach is fireball but even then like @TriTails said certain character's have an answer for luigi's fireballs.

Edit: Also luigi being top 3 is pretty debateable. At one hand luigi has all these bad matchups in theory but at another he has all these amazing tourney results

The only reason Dark Pit exists in this game is so "Pit" has a good matchup vs. Rosa .-.

Really? I thought dark pit exist because we need a more edgy emo counterpart of pit that only has 3 different moves?

 

[Wintropy]

I guess Electroshock is useful for getting Little Mac offstage but -shrug-

He's just as vulnerable in the air, though, and Upperdash softens him up for an aerial chase.

Electroshock may have a minute advantage in that case, but I don't think the Mac / Pit matchup is difficult enough to warrant it being a truly game-changing difference.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I haven't touched Dark Pit or Pit for a while. But then I played with them, it was a bit of a pain in the ass to battle with Rosalina's. And I did use Electroshock and it got rid of tons of Lumas pretty easily. And I didn't get punished too hard. Although I don't remember if I defeated those Rosalinas.

Why does everyone love Fox? I have been trying to use him for a while and he does not have a good neutral at all. Falco is so much better at keeping your opponent away and he can combo you so much better than Fox with a grab. Down Throw into Up Air in low percents? That is insane. (I don't know if this is a true combo though).

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

In order for Dark Pit to have more significant matchups against other characters, in contrast to Pit, his Electroshock Arm needs to send opponents at a more horizontal angle. Kind of like how the last hit of Meta Knight's forward tilt was recently changed.

Sure, you could also buff Arrows/Ftilt, but they wouldn't really change his matchups as much as changing the angle of his Electroshock Arm would. Because if Electroshock Arm sent opponents at a lower angle, Dark Pit would have even better matchups against characters with poor recoveries. In this scenario, people would want to pick Dark Pit more against Little Mac, Ganondorf, Roy, etc

But because Electroshock Arm doesn't send opponents at that angle, his only true advantageous matchup over Pit is the one against Rosalina, because he murders Luma. Granted, this is a really good thing to have, but it currently isn't enough to warrant Dark Pit's differences in any other matchup.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I haven't touched Dark Pit or Pit for a while. But then I played with them, it was a bit of a pain in the *** to battle with Rosalina's. And I did use Electroshock and it got rid of tons of Lumas pretty easily. And I didn't get punished too hard. Although I don't remember if I defeated those Rosalinas.

Why does everyone love Fox? I have been trying to use him for a while and he does not have a good neutral at all. Falco is so much better at keeping your opponent away and he can combo you so much better than Fox with a grab. Down Throw into Up Air in low percents? That is insane. (I don't know if this is a true combo though).

's neutral is significantly worse than 's due to his awful mobility and lack of a good projectile. While's grab game is better, has less issues getting a grab due to his higher Speed. His grab having less endlag also makes it slightly safer.

 

[Ffamran]

's neutral is significantly worse than 's due to his awful mobility and lack of a good projectile. While's grab game is better, has less issues getting a grab due to his higher Speed. His grab having less endlag also makes it slightly safer.

Falco's grab game is worse than Fox's; throw game's much better, though.

 

[Big-Cat]

Luigi's neutral game is perhaps his biggest weakness in smash 4. Sure he's a annoying little **** that escape combos and combo you back even worse( vs in a nutshell) but he get's zoned out pretty easy compared since he doesn't have the speed to approach. Luigi's best approach is fireball but even then like @TriTails said certain character's have an answer for luigi's fireballs.

Edit: Also luigi being top 3 is pretty debateable. At one hand luigi has all these bad matchups in theory but at another he has all these amazing tourney results



Really? I thought dark pit exist because we need a more edgy emo counterpart of pit that only has 3 different moves?

Maybe it's because I play , but I find Luigi's neutral to be a pain in the ass. I admit I might be doing something wrong. He is an annoying little **** though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My tier list (In order with no customs and 1111 for Mii's)
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E
F:
G:

 

[Routa]

My tier list (In order with no customs and 1111 for Mii's)
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E
F:
G:

Ok... I think you should stop taking that heroin.

 

[Smog Frog]

is there reasoning? and why is there anything past a d tier? i'd cut the E F G and put the characters in those tiers where you see fit in the a/b/c/d tiers. e f g implies that 18/55 characters are terrible and shouldnt be used whatsoever when the case is really that all the characters have a niche in some matchup against a high/top tier(eg / or something of the sort).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You... haven't been keeping up to date with the patches, have you?

 

[ARGHETH]

My tier list (In order with no customs and 1111 for Mii's)
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E
F:
G:

...Ike and Charizard are F-tier?

 

[Unknownkid]

You... haven't been keeping up to date with the patches, have you?

Shhh... Ike, Swordfighter and Charizard need more buffs.

 

[GeneralLedge]

(1111 for Mii's)

E:
F:

Okay.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's so backwards in my head because DDD is so big.

In my experience hurtbox size is a far less important factor than fall speed and weight when it comes to combos and multihit moves, at least in this specific case.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth and Lucina are 3 tiers apart? Should be no more than 1 or 2 tiers.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Now why would you even include lucas, roy, and a White bread ken @ Seagull Joe ? they only been out for a month and are really underdeveloped. Well maybe not since his playstyle is pretty easy to distinguish compared to and .

Edit: not even top 10 let alone top 15 with his amazing zoning kit and amazing frame data? Why?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Seagull... This is why some people hate you honestly. I mean, are you even serious? Are you trying to get us salty? Your own main is Top B? Seriously? I can accept Mario and DIddy. But Sonic? And why Roy, Marth, Ike, Lucas, Roy, Charizard and Link are so damn low?

 

[Vipermoon]

Seagull... This is why some people hate you honestly. I mean, are you even serious? Are you trying to get us salty? Your own main is Top B? Seriously? I can accept Mario and DIddy. But Sonic? And why Roy, Marth, Ike, Lucas, Roy, Charizard and Link are so damn low?

His placement of Roy, Marth, Link, and Lucas are definitely not low. They belong around there.

 

[Leonyx]

I mean no disrespect (I love lurking this thread even though it's kind of a hassle sometimes with the large amount of posts) but why do we continue to discuss tier lists with little to no reasoning behind it?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Lucas... Low-Mid Tier? You're joking right? This is seriously just to rust our jimmies. I felt really offended with Seagull's List ._.

Meh, I suggest everyone to ignore the list.

 

[Deathcarter]

My tier list (In order with no customs and 1111 for Mii's)
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E
F:
G:

Are Rosalina or even Sheik really a whole tier or two above the other top tiers?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ya lose your tipper, ya lose 22 places on the tier list.

That's life.

 

[Ffamran]

Ok... I think you should stop taking that heroin.

First off, no drug references.

Seagull... This is why some people hate you honestly. I mean, are you even serious? Are you trying to get us salty? Your own main is Top B? Seriously? I can accept Mario and DIddy. But Sonic? And why Roy, Marth, Ike, Lucas, Roy, Charizard and Link are so damn low?

Second off, no flaming or insulting people.

Look, if I made a "tier list" that looked like this:
S:
A:
C:
F:

You're here to discuss, correct, educate, and argue about characters' performances in the competitive scene. You're not supposed to look at the tier list and say, "Hey, idiot, you're ******* stupid", or "What the **** are you smoking, you crackhead?" You're here to have a civil discussion and argue why (hypothetically) I think Mario is bottom or why I separated the tier list with 4 tiers.

Every region has imbalanced character usage. In a perfect setting, 55 equal level players would play 55 different characters, but that's not going to happen. That's not reality and that means characters won't have "proper" representation. In Seagull's region, you have a really strong Luigi, Boss. Now how strong Boss is compared to J. Miller or Mr. ConCon does not matter, what matters is that Boss and Seagull are pretty much neck to neck when competing. Now, imagine if Boss used Peach instead. Well, Peach might be at a higher place on Seagull's list. This goes for Dabuz, ESAM, Shaya, ZeRo, or anyone's list. If a character is irrelevant or there's not a high enough level of player of that character at your region, why should you care? Pikachu has Kenny and Kenny isn't as good as ESAM. If ESAM was in Seagull's competitive scene, that might influence Seagull's tier list. If Ito was in Seagull's scene, that would influence Seagull's opinion on Meta Knight.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Seagull... This is why some people hate you honestly. I mean, are you even serious? Are you trying to get us salty? Your own main is Top B? Seriously? I can accept Mario and DIddy. But Sonic? And why Roy, Marth, Ike, Lucas, Roy, Charizard and Link are so damn low?

Wow at this. Stay off your high horse. It's my honest opinion.

Patch or not, some characters do not suddenly become a ton more viable.

is there reasoning? and why is there anything past a d tier? i'd cut the E F G and put the characters in those tiers where you see fit in the a/b/c/d tiers. e f g implies that 18/55 characters are terrible and shouldnt be used whatsoever when the case is really that all the characters have a niche in some matchup against a high/top tier(eg / or something of the sort).

I layered the tiers by viability to me. It's honestly hard to place 55 characters accurately. I did my best from the data and opinions I have. Some characters may be movable because I didn't know where to honestly place them. Once it gets to mid and low tier, things become so subjective.

Are Rosalina or even Sheik really a whole tier or two above the other top tiers?

I think so.

Lucas... Low-Mid Tier? You're joking right? This is seriously just to rust our jimmies. I felt really offended with Seagull's List ._.

Meh, I suggest everyone to ignore the list.

Don't believe everything you see. Just because a character has an infinite doesn't mean they have a reliable approach or grab. His grab is trash. I can react to it so easily.

I don't care if you're offended by my list, but to insult me directly is just plain asinine.

You... haven't been keeping up to date with the patches, have you?

Have any of those characters done anything in tournaments since the patch? Honestly curious here. Has , , , or any other patched character done something? At least Ally won tourneys as . I haven't seen do jack squat.

Seagull Joe ? they only been out for a month and are really underdeveloped. Well maybe not since his playstyle is pretty easy to distinguish compared to and .

Edit: not even top 10 let alone top 15 with his amazing zoning kit and amazing frame data? Why?

is the single most overrated character. With customs, he's godlike. Without? One of the worst high tier characters as you climb up the levels of players.

 

[Ulevo]

Seagull... This is why some people hate you honestly. I mean, are you even serious? Are you trying to get us salty? Your own main is Top B? Seriously? I can accept Mario and DIddy. But Sonic? And why Roy, Marth, Ike, Lucas, Roy, Charizard and Link are so damn low?

Hey I recognize you. Aren't you one of the people who harassed Dabuz for his character choice at CEO?

 

[Antonykun]

Wow at this. Stay off your high horse. It's my honest opinion.

Patch or not, some characters do not suddenly become a ton more viable.

did get a lot more viable granted you put him where i would put him in a tier list

 

[Wintropy]

I'm honestly curious now that it's been brought up, and I haven't heard it discussed since the patch:

Is Lucina a viable character, irrespective of the fact that she's the inferior Marth?

Did any of Marth's buffs have an effect on Lucina, or is she still stuck with the majority of her crippling weaknesses?

I've always said that it would be of benefit to be a weaker clone of a decent character than a weaker clone of a terrible character.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm honestly curious now that it's been brought up, and I haven't heard it discussed since the patch:

Is Lucina a viable character, irrespective of the fact that she's the inferior Marth?

Did any of Marth's buffs have an effect on Lucina, or is she still stuck with the majority of her crippling weaknesses?

I've always said that it would be of benefit to be a weaker clone of a decent character than a weaker clone of a terrible character.

The word viable implies that you can win or place highly on a consistent basis as a solo main amongst high competition.

I think if you wanted to figure out if Lucina is viable, the first logical step is to find out if Marth is viable by that definition.

Personally I do not see anyone regarding Marth as a viable contender. I may be speaking too soon given the recent changes, mind you.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

what do you guys think of vs ? i've never seen this MUs play out before and was just wondering how it would play out. I think luigi has advantage.

 

[Wintropy]

The word viable implies that you can win or place highly on a consistent basis as a solo main amongst high competition.

I think if you wanted to figure out if Lucina is viable, the first logical step is to find out if Marth is viable by that definition.

Personally I do not see anyone regarding Marth as a viable contender. I may be speaking too soon given the recent changes, mind you.

Y'know, you're absolutely right. Let me rephrase my question.

Is Lucina better than she was previously; to wit, was she changed in any way comparable to how Marth was recently changed?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Best part about that list is that Brawl Luigi and Brawl Pikachu are so good that they replace Smash 4 Luigi and Smash 4 Pikachu.

:kappa:

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The word viable implies that you can win or place highly on a consistent basis as a solo main amongst high competition.

I think if you wanted to figure out if Lucina is viable, the first logical step is to find out if Marth is viable by that definition.

Personally I do not see anyone regarding Marth as a viable contender. I may be speaking too soon given the recent changes, mind you.

I don't agree with that statement. viable is when most of your MUs are winnable. in that regard, every character is viable, it's just some needs a secondary to help with a terrible MU