Charizard Tactical Discussion

[PkTrainerCris]

Well usmash comes out before frame ten (dont remember which one exactly) , so it may be considered a combo

 

[typh]

best charizard combo is 45 rock smash -> upsmash

61 percent combo yeaaaaaaaaaaaah

and i know i've posted this before but it deserves being said again

 

[Retro Gaming]

I typically grab after 45% Rock Smash. I would Usmash but I save it for like 115% kills.

The stun from 45% Rock Smashes give me a sense of enormous self-satisfaction.

 

[Miles.]

Zards Upsmash Comes out on Frame 5.

 

[Bestiarius]

Also, I find that if you land a 45% RS, if they try to immediately airdodge, the startup time of fsmash is just long enough so that they get creamed with it. High risk, high return.

 

[CoonTail]

best charizard combo is 45 rock smash -> upsmash

61 percent combo yeaaaaaaaaaaaah

and i know i've posted this before but it deserves being said again

Uhh this is so true, I was 2 stock behind in a match pulled this out and boom it was almost an instant stock after these two hits. Seriously this is probably the biggest comeback combo charizard has in my opinion.

 

[Ussi]

well guys, I did go all charizard in the tourney i went. But I failed pretty badly cause I didn't know what stages are good for Zard, and I didn't have any good match up experience with Zard.

my first round I went against a DDD. My god it was soo great cause I actually could avoid being grabbed so easily. >_< But I am still a zard n00b so I did leave myself open more often so I ended up losing this round by a CG to dtilt. but i had got him to 100% his last stock.

then I CP Rainbow Cruise.... why? Cause I like the stage as Ike. I figured no more CG. But I suicide three times there >_< I fall under the ledge twice and fail to recover. I accidentally activate Glide while i was at the bottom when it was scrolling up... I died... match over in 40 seconds.

the 2nd round I went against a Kirby I beat as Ike in a friendly. However... I don't know the zard/Kirby match up.. and I played the entire match as if I was Ike. I tried to outrange all his moves with RS (Like Ike's fair) and I kept using nair as if it was Ikes... >_< I kept trying to bait ADs into forward smash at Ike's killing percent.. >_< Then I kept dying at 100%... I felt as if Charizard was lighter than Ike as well...

So what are Zard's good stages and bad.. and What is the Kirby Match up?

 

[Adriel]

Charizard does good on Halberd, and stages with low ceilings. Mostly 'cause of Up-smash, one of Charizard's best KO moves. Stages with platforms hurt Charizard some, 'specially against characters that can combo you easily underneath them like Meta.

 

[Charizard92]

For starters, Use at least 2 of the Pokemon, that typically helps.

Second, when it comes to stages, forget Ike for a sec, as Ike and Charizard perform much differently. Moving stages are Hellish for Pokemon trainer because they don't give you enough time to switch, they can hamper recovery (and with Ivysaur on your team, you definitely want recovery aid), and because nobody has a projectile outside Ivysaur, so Keeping them away, fails.

For stages that Charizard likes, try choosing walk offs. Charizard (as you should know by now) has a good grab game, and with decent throws to include. With walk offs, you just lure them to the boundary, grab, and throw (and this is precisely why I aimed for banning Walk offs before the legal stage list came out. Good thing I failed partially). Solid ground stages are also of noteworthy mention, as Charizard doesn't have to worry about someone (namely Meta Knight) from coming under him and start juggling. By this number, Norfair, Haliberd (to a degree), and a couple of other stages are bad Ideas. Transforming stages are rater sweet for Pokemon trainer, because for most characters, adapting requires a change in strategy, while for PT, it involves Pressing DownB. PS1 and castle siege are the sweet candies of these stages, but Delfino plaza is also OK (PS2 is also to a degree also, but is less legal). PS1 adds walls, so Flamethrower can trap People (try that under the Tree in the fire stage) and Castle siege has, WALK OFFS, YAY! Delfino plaza is fine, except Charizard has around the shortest swim times of any character (Characters that can't or poorly swim in their games, ex sonic [who can't swim], Samus [due to her biosuit] and Charizard [although people say if the flame on Charizard's (or his pre evolutionary forms) tail goes out, it dies, that idea is complete bull ****. Still, they suck at swimming] have only a few seconds of swim time before drowning. Of course the inverse is true.)
Oh, and Because all Pokemon excel with KOing upwards, pick a stage with Low ceilings. Corneria certainly likes us.

As for Kirby, look at their matchups, we haven't really discussed any Pink pluffballs yet, nor have we confirmed that what they got down there is correct (so far, only Toon Link and Sonic has gotten a thumbs up on their matchups)

 

[Ussi]

It was the PT hack guys >_> Don't forget.. That's why i was playing similarly as Ike. Cause their both heavies. I just thought maybe Charizard would live better... but he kept dying at earlier percents than I have anticipated.

But after playing on Charizard I've realized the hack is really no good. Its more fun to use PT as a whole.

I'll keep using PT in friendlies though xD my tourney scene will only be Ikeachu for now.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well, zard against kirby is pretty much shieldgrabing and outranging... use rocksmash mostly to stop his approaches, use flamethrower to control spacing, and ftilt and dtilt for ground outranging( you may wanna save dtilt to kill) Usmash is pretty good against kirby too but i prefer saving it to kill
Charizard likes stages like battlefield, corneria and ps1, unless mine does :D

 

[Steeler]

rock smash -> rock smash is the manliest series of moves in this game.

well if the opponent isn't smart enough to di away after the first one anyway.

sorry to hear about that ussi. rainbow cruise isn't that good for zard. it seems like his recovery is good but he really needs sweetspot ledges. rainbow cruise has like two of those lol.

 

[Charizard92]

rock smash -> rock smash is the manliest series of moves in this game.

well if the opponent isn't smart enough to di away after the first one anyway.

sorry to hear about that ussi. rainbow cruise isn't that good for zard. it seems like his recovery is good but he really needs sweetspot ledges. rainbow cruise has like two of those lol.

Here's a joke for you all, what's the difference between Rock smash and Falcon Punch?

Falcon Punch is overmemed and underpowered and Rock smash is undermemed and overpowered.

Anyway, of all the legal stages, I outright HATE rainbow cruise (well, that and Norfair, but that's for personal reasons). It just hates Pokemon trainer period. Squirtle's agility is applied to something other than combat, and can cause problems, Ivysaur's poor recovery turns it into a kiss of death, and Charizard's mobility is now redundant (along with some of his KO power). Charizard does notably like grabable ledges (mine certainly does), and while PS1, PS2, and Final Destination has a weird lip, it is still grab able. rainbow cruise, forget it man. Oh, and because much of it is platforms... LOOK OUT! META KNIGHT'S BELOW YOU!!!

 

[DemonFart]

oh noes meta knight!!!

yeah i have to agree with you, it really is a death walk for PT.

 

[CoonTail]

Here's a joke for you all, what's the difference between Rock smash and Falcon Punch?

Falcon Punch is overmemed and underpowered and Rock smash is undermemed and overpowered.

Anyway, of all the legal stages, I outright HATE rainbow cruise (well, that and Norfair, but that's for personal reasons). It just hates Pokemon trainer period. Squirtle's agility is applied to somethign other than combat, and can cause problems, Ivysaur's poor recovery turns it into a kiss of death, and Charizard's mobility is now redundant (along with some of his KO power). Charizard does notably like grabable ledges (mine certainly does), and while PS1, PS2, and Final Destination has a weird lip, it is still grab able. rainbow cruise, forget it man. Oh, and because much of it is platforms... LOOK OUT! META KNIGHT'S BELOW YOU!!!

I completely agree with you Charizard92 because any tourny I go to my ban goes to Rainbow cruise and if there is a second I tend to knock out lylat too. Rainbow cruise has been fully explained....in short rainbow cruise makes recovering with any poke hell and with constant level movement combos and holding your ground become extremely hard. Lylat to me is just the worst edge in the world I always manage to end up under the level and crashing into that awful bottom of the stage and just straight die. Not to mention with 3 platforms thats just more reason PT hates this level, more chances for MK's to get under means less chance for PT to win so.......about that. Overall rainbow cruise absolutly sucks for PT and lylat is another stage that just is not a very good choice for PT players.

Some may not agree with me about lylat but overall those are my personal problems with the stage and thats why I choose to ban it right after I ban rainbow cruise.

 

[Charizard92]

I have no problems with Lylat. My problems with Norfair is personal (its a death trap! ITS A DEATH TRAP!), but Rainbow cruise, is lethal.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

So, are you guys saying that PT doesn't do as well on stages with platforms than with stages with no platforms?

 

[Charizard92]

Well, it depends on the Opponent and Pokemon. Meta Knight loves platforms, and charizard hates being caught from below, so platforms can be a boon. Conversely, Charizard has no real defense against projectiles, and needs platforms. It's a love hate relationship, like a whole lot of other ****.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

So, what would be the best stage to play on against a MK? Maybe FD since MK has no projectiles, so platforms aren't needed for them.

 

[Charizard92]

Officially, the best stages to fight MK is Final Destination (lack of platforms, and negates Air games), PS1 (so that you can turn the tides) and Luigi's mansion (as most of the platforms are solid).

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Has anyone noticed fair´s defensive potential???
I was messing around with attacks and i realized that a fair made an awesome wall in front of you, its pretty fast and covers a good area( the sweetspot is not so shortranged).. it only fails against disjointees, as far as i know

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Has anyone noticed fair´s defensive potential???
I was messing around with attacks and i realized that a fair made an awesome wall in front of you, its pretty fast and covers a good area( the sweetspot is not so shortranged).. it only fails against disjointees, as far as i know

The only problem with using Fair defensively is that it's not always reliable, because opponents sometimes will only be scathed by the damage, but have no flinching to it, so they can still whack at Charizard even if the wall is there.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, outside getting out of a juggle (being Charizard's only real practical move to hit from below), I don't really use Fair.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Thats the point, if it isnt a disjointed attack then the fair sweetspot will hit them ( it has an awkward priority from what i have experienced) instead of them hitting charizard....if its a disjointed hitbox then they will can hit zard from far enough to not be hit by the sweetspot
Maybe im just fighitng too much falcons :/

 

[DrakeRowan]

Fair is great. It's a good move to use once in awhile to force them out of the air. Plus fair gimps are sexy.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Falcon's pirority sucks, everyone knows that -.-;

Agianst other characters, you run too much risk in being counter attacked, espeically if it's an aerial battle where many characters out prioritize Charizard's aerials, and even have longer range. I think Fair is better used when the opponent is ignorant to it's properties.

 

[Charizard92]

Fair is more like a gimp move/ KO starter. Nair is an anti-juggle, but not much else. Bair, that's the true end all be all of Charizard's aerials.

 

[gantrain05]

rock smash is charizards best move period.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

For some reason, I would say that his Ftilt is his best cuz it can kill, and space, and has pretty good range and decent speed.

 

[gantrain05]

For some reason, I would say that his Ftilt is his best cuz it can kill, and space, and has pretty good range and decent speed.

yeah but....rock smash is rock smash, 45%?! cmon its just so much awesome that it has to be his best move.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

For some reason, I would say that his Ftilt is his best cuz it can kill, and space, and has pretty good range and decent speed.

The only thing rocksmash lacks in comparison of ftilt is some speed, but hast that "counter" effect when your oponent hits the rock... so rock smash is oficially charizards best move

I still think ftilt is great
And fair's sexy gimps are just awesome... and it may get you out of a juggle better than a nair because its faster and seems to have better priority... nair still cover zards body so it may be better sometimes ... it all depends on which angle you are being attacked..

 

[Charizard92]

OK, I've done some testing, and this is what I found:
Ftilt and Dtilt both sweetspot at around the same range, so when to comes to range preference, Neither one really wins out.
Dtilt can KO a CPU bowser at 137% from the center of FD. Ftilt needs to be at around 155% to do said feat.
Because Charizard can't crawl, you are forced to be stationary to execute Dtilt (unless you find a way to execute down a quickly without giving up the C stick), so Ftilt is a bit easier to land.

Overall, use Ftilt to better hit an opponent, and Dtilt to better Kill an opponent.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

OK, I've done some testing, and this is what I found:
Ftilt and Dtilt both sweetspot at around the same range, so when to comes to range preference, Neither one really wins out.
Dtilt can KO a CPU bowser at 137% from the center of FD. Ftilt needs to be at around 155% to do said feat.
Because Charizard can't crawl, you are forced to be stationary to execute Dtilt (unless you find a way to execute down a quickly without giving up the C stick), so Ftilt is a bit easier to land.

Overall, use Ftilt to better hit an opponent, and Dtilt to better Kill an opponent.

Charizards walking speed is sooooooo slow... it doesnt make too much diference
Dtilt is more like a surprise.. charizard is just laying there then he stretches his neck and bites very fast... that can make KOing a lil easier
We agree on using ftilt to hit and dtilt to kill.. or maybe a little on the begining... so when you want to kill its fresh

I have a question... does every hit of flamethrower count on stale moves or it just counts as one move???

 

[Charizard92]

OK. I have trouble landing Dtilt on CPUs (and if it's hard on a Cpu, imagine on a human).

Then again, I just started using tilts to KO, so maybe it'll take some time.

 

[Smash_Of_Fate]

Great thread, took me 4 days to read all 40 pages. You guys pointed out a lot of things I did not know and some obvious things never thought of. I was originally going to post about the RS > Fly "combo" but it was already mentioned three times before. Thanks for all the info, well on to the Squirtle and Ivy threads now. At least they are only 20 pages long. =Ply

 

[typh]

smash of fate your signature makes me incredibly angry

 

[Smash_Of_Fate]

smash of fate your signature makes me incredibly angry

Then my plots have succeeded! My job is done then...

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Heheh, you get riled up easily Typh. =P

 

[Bomber7]

no even sure if this has been mentioned before but its something i saw ina vid over the past month and I found it really helpful:

Charz and squirtle have a very good grab-release game. You may be asking me what I'm talking about. Allow me to explain. Instead of grabbing then throwing in any given direction, you just sit there and deal damage whiule you have them in a hold and then when they break away you grab them again and repeat.

It's another great way to rack up damage, not to mention Charz has a killer grabbing ability with grabbing speed to top it all off so imaging how well it works(no vids of my success, sorry but take my word for it, i got alot of my friends frustrated with the chain grab-releases last night). anyways, as I was saying, this is pretty simple and it can make a difference when it comes to playing defensivly or playing in general. for me I found it takes a couple of grabs to get your opponent learning what to do and that is spot dodge and or dodge roll away form it. However, charz has awsome spot dodging abilities so he can grab, miss and spot dodge if you oppnent tries to counter, or spot dodge themselves, which them oyu can easily punish them by getting them in another chain grab-release.

imo, since charz can spot dodge well, you can mindgame your opponent into thinking you will grab but dont and then continue it, squirtle doesnt have that kind of capability to spot dodge and follow up as quickly as charz. but hey, i found this useful and I'm glad it helped me out alot.

imo, the ability to do this easily outweighs the fact they can spot dodge or roll to avoid, even so, if you are quick to react or can tell what they will do next, you can just counter or follow them and set yourself up for another grab-release chain.

 

[typh]

yeah you just have to know what characters have insane fast attacks that can hit you out of a release no matter what you follow it up with (like metaknight)