Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Bestiarius]

Btw, Vermy, Ivysaur does not have a decent anti air game. Ivy is built for anti air. Ivi is an anti air machine. Even the little booklet that comes with the game that goes over basics and introduces the characters you don't have to unlock knows this. It says that Ivy is a pokemon that specializes in moves that cover it from above. Peach is built around a strong air game. Always hover, dair incessantly, etc. In my opinion, go Zard to start. If you win the first stock, awesome (non-traditional spacing ftw!). If not, you got Squirtle coming up next, whose air game is faster and arguably better than hers. So Peach has a projectile. Squirtle doesn't need a projectile; Squirtle is a projectile. After that, you have Ivy as your closer to shut down Peach's air game. She has good options against Ivy, but if we're leading, we should win. Once again, just my opinion.

 

[T-block]

^that makes no sense...why wouldn't you start as squirtle then? you basically just said "use all three pokemon", which is almost never the best strat.

i'd put ivy vs peach as close to even. he can definitely hold his own

 

[Bomber7]

So it looks like that we have arguments for all three being able to start. Ivysaur imo can see having a better chance of starting than Charizard just because she is anti aerial and has razorleaf to fight back with.

Those are my thoughts as of now.

 

[typh]

i'd put ivy vs peach as close to even. he can definitely hold his own

hahahahahahahaha

 

[T-block]

i <3 my ivy ok? =(

i think pretty much everyone has been saying squirtle start >_>

 

[MaTA]

kill with squirtle, switch to ivy and get damage. then **** with zard.

 

[_Keno_]

Squirtle is best against peach, harder to combo, kill, and outspace.
Peach simply ***** zard with combos and spacing. Ivy does decently hit-and-run (maybe some small combos), but peach can combo him very well, and once he is off-stage =(

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I saw the words 'Float Cancelling' in this thread and thought you needed help

IIRC, Charizard is about even with Peach, whilst Peach has a slight advantage over Squirtle and a definite advantage over Ivysaur

The purpose of this thread is to choose to start off with (right?) and I would say...I personally would go with Charizard. Rock Smash will beat out her aerials (I think) and will also deal a lot of damage. That would be the only reason I'd pick Charizard, I don't see how much of an impact it would make choosing a specific Pokemon first. I wouldn't go for Squirtle since I'd use his aerials to combat/kill an aerial happy Peach or just run in and D Throw. You also don't really want to risk getting put in a stick situation since Peach could potentially follow up with stuff after grab release chaining you and her moves are more likely to string together when you're at a lower percent, not to mention her moves will be stale. I wouldn't use Ivysaur because she's bad no really, she's pretty awful Ivysaur is pretty easy to rack up damage on at low percents and Peach does best against her out of the three

Tbh, it would have been easier if I'd just said it's your personal preference. I can't see it mattering massivly which Pokemon you use first as long as it's not Ivysaur

 

[Bomber7]

I have been thinking. You think it would be a good choice to start with Ivy? After all she is built for anti aerial and as long as she is effective in racking up damage on peach then that's basically all we are looking for. Plus you can also switch to Charizard for the kill since Charizard would do better doing that anyway.

*Note: when I mean effectively I mean Ivy causing damage and not getting wrecked in the process.

 

[typh]

edit: i wrote some stuff but i don't want to bother arguing with people so there you go

 

[_Keno_]

Rickerdy, isnt peach's only follow up for grab release (on squirts) her dash attack? That really isn't much a weakness for squirtle. Not only that, but hydroplane mindgames from a good squirtle make spacing difficult.

 

[typh]

rickerdyyyyy

 

[Bomber7]

ehh meehhh, If worst comes to worst I'll just keep Squirtle on Peach and after the thread is done if someone really has that big of a problem with Squirtle being the only best starter against Peach, we can discuss it then when they present their case.

 

[Steeler]

typh is such a tease

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

Fly OoS.

Do it, it's good, mang

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Rickerdy, isnt peach's only follow up for grab release (on squirts) her dash attack? That really isn't much a weakness for squirtle. Not only that, but hydroplane mindgames from a good squirtle make spacing difficult.

She can Dash re grab Squirtle from an aerial grab release

rickerdyyyyy

whatttttt

I'm not trying to start an arguement, arguing is pointless. Discussing on the other hand is good If someone disagrees with what I said please say so, I'm not parading around saying I'm right (most of the time I'm not ) but I'll defend my points unless convinced otherwise

I'm only recommending Charizard because

- Rock Smash is too good
- If you do die with Charizard, you move onto Squirtle who can kill Peach with fresh aerials and a fresh D Throw. You also avoid using Ivysaur as much

Sorry to all the Ivysaur lovers out there but she's definitly the weakest of the 3 to use against Peach. Tether recovery and tether grabbing make things more of a problem for her

I don't main PT so I can't appreciate the importance of starting with a specific Pokemon but I would say either start with Charizard or Squirtle since they do best vs Peach out of the three

 

[typh]

nothing i just like your name

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh

Well then

I like your name too

<3

typhhhhh

 

[CoonTail]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, arguing is pointless. Discussing on the other hand is good If someone disagrees with what I said please say so, I'm not parading around saying I'm right (most of the time I'm not ) but I'll defend my points unless convinced otherwise

I'm only recommending Charizard because

- Rock Smash is too good
- If you do die with Charizard, you move onto Squirtle who can kill Peach with fresh aerials and a fresh D Throw. You also avoid using Ivysaur as much

Sorry to all the Ivysaur lovers out there but she's definitly the weakest of the 3 to use against Peach. Tether recovery and tether grabbing make things more of a problem for her

I don't main PT so I can't appreciate the importance of starting with a specific Pokemon but I would say either start with Charizard or Squirtle since they do best vs Peach out of the three

-Thank you Rickerdy this is what I was getting at. Zard can get ***** by peach but yet a good zard can put a **** good fight.....flamethrower and rocksmash I said was all he had because its all you need you can pull her out of the air with flamethrower the biggest reason she wrecks zard. Next you have rocksmash which as we all know has the infamous 61%.....and everyone keeps seeming to forget this. 61% on peach means there isnt much left to that stock. PLain and simple charizard has the raw power to take on peach and she has the combos to take him on. Matchup states 45/55 zard meaning starting with Zard then going squirtle IMO is the strongest option and Rickerdy's posts show this, in short you may be forced to switch out of squirt to Ivy prematurly if you feel your ivy isnt strong enough to keep up with peach. Doing this results in minimal Ivy time and max Zard squirtle. I really believe starting off zard is the best because it leaves squirtle in a way better position than if he started.

Lastly I thought peach had an air release to Booty Butt(side b) that ***** squirtle.....could be wrong.

PS: thanks Rickerdy!!!!! at least someone agrees lol

 

[Bomber7]

hmm, interesting maneuver.

(cookie for whomever gets that)

 

[_Keno_]

She can Dash re grab Squirtle from an aerial grab release

Ah, I thought you meant peach had a few follow-up moves. My bad.
Her air-grab release isn't very useful either though. A single dair --> nair combo does more damage than air releasing pummeling across fd.

 

[Bestiarius]

I'm gonna have to go with Rickerdy and CoonTail and say zard is the strongest starter because of the Zard-Squirtle battery. Btw, ****, I know that Rock Smash deals 61% only if usmash is used immediately after, but that's not a true combo, is it? By itself, Rock Smash is a max 45%, which is still a huge chunk of health, but it's not as awesome as 61%.

 

[Toby.]

Good luck landing a sweet spot rock smash on peach. It can be done, but she has plenty of tools to avoid it. You shouldn't be looking at the sweet spot damage as a game changer. Rock smash is often better used as a spacing tool.

 

[Bestiarius]

I know, but it's still possible. Just needs to be mentioned as an option, even if it is rarely possible. Practicing spacing Rock Smash on level 9's is really useful because they dodge really well. Do that to improve spacing and aim. That should help increase the effectiness of your Rock Smash, especially on light characters like Peach.

 

[Toby.]

I disagree about using level 9 cpus to be able to hit a SS rock smash. Level 9 CPU's don't have brains, so you can trick them really easily into getting hit.

Humans know that we can rock smash. They also know that all they have to do is is move backwards, jump, roll, or shield (if their shield is close to full) to be fine. If they shield the rock smash they get a free attack afterwards.

The problem with hitting peach with rock smash isn't that I don't have practice doing it. The problem is that the other player has a brain.

With this in mind, yes its something to take into account. But by no reason should it be the justification for starting with charizard, just because we might land an attack with like 20 frames startup. Once again - rock smash is awesome, yeah. But we can't just randomly claim that hitting a good human player with a 43% rock smash is a reason we should start with charizard. From what I've seen peach has many ways of avoiding it. For starters she could probably fair us during the startup. Or counter us with toad.

 

[CoonTail]

I disagree about using level 9 cpus to be able to hit a SS rock smash. Level 9 CPU's don't have brains, so you can trick them really easily into getting hit.

Humans know that we can rock smash. They also know that all they have to do is is move backwards, jump, roll, or shield (if their shield is close to full) to be fine. If they shield the rock smash they get a free attack afterwards.

The problem with hitting peach with rock smash isn't that I don't have practice doing it. The problem is that the other player has a brain.

With this in mind, yes its something to take into account. But by no reason should it be the justification for starting with charizard, just because we might land an attack with like 20 frames startup. Once again - rock smash is awesome, yeah. But we can't just randomly claim that hitting a good human player with a 43% rock smash is a reason we should start with charizard. From what I've seen peach has many ways of avoiding it. For starters she could probably fair us during the startup. Or counter us with toad.

Toby your completely right and f-air laughs at rocksmash......but my question is can you studder step rock smash? Also I have taken alot of time recently and learned the rocksmash counter attack.... btw toby rock smash is frame 3 if you get the counter and all you have to do is space it so that they hit it. As earlier stated peach is more mobile and has heavy offense on charizard, so if thats the case baiting a counter really isnt the worst thing in the world you just really need to work on it. Im in no way questioning your skill your clearly better than me but I can space the rock smash counters real well against 2 ny power ranked players. I have worked on this with peach and thats what peachs say rock smash crushs them because the damage is a bit too much for a peach to handle to many times.
So I think if in this matchup the zard used his tools correctly he could show his capability of beating peach just due to damage output.

-Beast
Im 100% the rocksmash u smash is a true combo because if done properly the rocksmash will still be trapping them thus u-smash lands no matter what.

I dont say this for no real point I say this because as charizards its not used enough.....it has been the one thing i have been working on and it really really cripples an opponent for 61% from basically one move since they cant do anything. Players go out of their way to make comments about it in my meta so its kinda known and is still an issue. So overall the Zard squirtle battery is my best option for that reason, but I guess I may be just arguing opinion I jus feel squirtle is way more of a problem second stock because a quick kill means dealing with a non fatigued squirtle 3rd stock. Just my 2 cents

 

[Toby.]

I know that rock smash countering is good, I rely on it in a lot of matchups. That having been said, countering with rock smash and a sweet spotted rock smash are two totally different things.

I think you guys are slightly missing the point of my posts. I'm not necessarily saying that charizard shouldn't be out first. I don't have an opinion on the subject. What I'm trying to get people to do is explain WHY rock smash is good against peach. The fact that it a) does lots of damage and b) can be used to counter applies to the entire cast. Peach being light isn't enough of a reason for rock smash to be particularly good in this match up. Can peach reliably outspace charizard? Is charizard particularly good at exploiting peach's blind spots or weaknesses, or is it the other way around? These are the sorts of questions that lead to solid conclusions in this type of thread.

I understand that this isn't a matchup discussion, but come on guys. Step it up!

 

[CoonTail]

-Fair enough Toby ill type a response soon Im just in class in short there are deffinite ways zard can exploit weaknesses of peach....but thanks for the post above now I understand what you want explanation wise

EDIT: So from what I see zard can exploit on peach is her approach once she gets in its hell but zard can stuff the approach IF READ PROPERLY. Peach has an aggressive approach so the zard must space but he deff can, her turnips are negated by f-air ,flamethrower, b-air or a well placed air dodge to grab them. Zard's b-air can clink with peachs f-air approach and knock her out of float cancel, cancel turnips. On top of this Full hop flamethrower cancels the high head stomping d-air float cancel. Rocksmash is so effective against peach because a well placed rocksmash as she d-airs will cuz the counter to go off and knock her out of the air another way to stop the float approach. Im curious to see if turnips will set the counter off also. Zard's U-smash also rips her out of the air if the peach player tries to do the d-air before shes above you. As a zard you should never be throwing rock smashes out there even for spacing in this matchup I feel b-air and flamethrower are your spacing tools. Rock smash becomes more of a reaction tool to make sure it hits and stops what she was doing. Overall they say its a 45/55 because zard's raw power will lead to an early peach death but peachs mobility and juggling is jus a general weakness of zard.

Overall for the record zard is not squirtle when it comes to fighting peach and thats not been my point. My point is that this is choose your starter thread and if you start squirtle you risk losing your strength real early in the fight. Ivy has difficulty here so going to Ivy next is jus poor options. If you start Zard yes your zard could get rocked if you dont play right but that leaves squirtle to come in change tempo which is always big and thus take some advantage figuring peach was spacing zard now she has to deal with the spacing nightmare of squirtle. But if your zard is trained in this matchup and you take a stock off peach with him, he can tank quite a bit of damage so if you bite into her second stock before squirtle comes out you have now optimized squirtle because shes not at 0% making squirtle work for the kill hes just finishing the job. So this leaves peach to deal with squirtle last stock and honestly I dont think any peach is gonna want that. Thats my reason for believeing zard is the better start option.

 

[Bomber7]

-Fair enough Toby ill type a response soon Im just in class in short there are deffinite ways zard can exploit weaknesses of peach....but thanks for the post above now I understand what you want explanation wise

EDIT: So from what I see zard can exploit on peach is her approach once she gets in its hell but zard can stuff the approach IF READ PROPERLY. Peach has an aggressive approach so the zard must space but he deff can, her turnips are negated by f-air ,flamethrower, b-air or a well placed air dodge to grab them. Zard's b-air can clink with peachs f-air approach and knock her out of float cancel, cancel turnips. On top of this Full hop flamethrower cancels the high head stomping d-air float cancel. Rocksmash is so effective against peach because a well placed rocksmash as she d-airs will cuz the counter to go off and knock her out of the air another way to stop the float approach. Im curious to see if turnips will set the counter off also. Zard's U-smash also rips her out of the air if the peach player tries to do the d-air before shes above you. As a zard you should never be throwing rock smashes out there even for spacing in this matchup I feel b-air and flamethrower are your spacing tools. Rock smash becomes more of a reaction tool to make sure it hits and stops what she was doing. Overall they say its a 45/55 because zard's raw power will lead to an early peach death but peachs mobility and juggling is jus a general weakness of zard.

Overall for the record zard is not squirtle when it comes to fighting peach and thats not been my point. My point is that this is choose your starter thread and if you start squirtle you risk losing your strength real early in the fight. Ivy has difficulty here so going to Ivy next is jus poor options. If you start Zard yes your zard could get rocked if you dont play right but that leaves squirtle to come in change tempo which is always big and thus take some advantage figuring peach was spacing zard now she has to deal with the spacing nightmare of squirtle. But if your zard is trained in this matchup and you take a stock off peach with him, he can tank quite a bit of damage so if you bite into her second stock before squirtle comes out you have now optimized squirtle because shes not at 0% making squirtle work for the kill hes just finishing the job. So this leaves peach to deal with squirtle last stock and honestly I dont think any peach is gonna want that. Thats my reason for believeing zard is the better start option.

Wow, I never thought of it that way. I applaud you for a well put post. When you think about it, your point is quite logical. Part of Pokemon Trainer's game is versatility and adaptation which accounts for both sides of the playing field. Going from a slow heavyweight but devastating Charizard to a high speed monster like Squirtle will disrupt the tempo/rhythm of your opponent. Yes I still think Squirtle would be a great starter, but now that you have said that I think it would also be great starter for the strategic point of the matter. I would take it as that if you are the kind of person who wants to be straightforward with your battle then you can start with Squirtle, but if you want to cause a little of mental disruption and gain some sort of advantage then Start with Charizard and then kill everything in sight with Squirtle once Charizard is gone.

 

[Bestiarius]

OK, the last paragraph of ****'s is pretty much my opinion of why Zard should be the starter; I just didn't word it that well.
@Toby: OK, ok, I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to say Rock Smash was the reason Zard should be started, but it sounded to me like you were trying to discount the move as a whole, so I was just trying to defend it. And yes, level 9 cpu's are brainless, but the one thing they are good at is dodging because they read button inputs. I have never landed a sweet-spotted Rock Smash on them, but hey, I tend to suck because NOBODY lives near me . I just think using a level 9 cpu as a sort of training dummy to improve timing and aim has merit.

 

[Bomber7]

OK, the last paragraph of ****'s is pretty much my opinion of why Zard should be the starter; I just didn't word it that well.
@Toby: OK, ok, I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to say Rock Smash was the reason Zard should be started, but it sounded to me like you were trying to discount the move as a whole, so I was just trying to defend it. And yes, level 9 cpu's are brainless, but the one thing they are good at is dodging because they read button inputs. I have never landed a sweet-spotted Rock Smash on them, but hey, I tend to suck because NOBODY lives near me . I just think using a level 9 cpu as a sort of training dummy to improve timing and aim has merit.

Bestiarus, if you are right behind me, we can hang and play Brawl and stuff.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

i would choose squirtle just for the sole fact that his mobility is awesome lol and couldnt you use water gun to interept then follow up with something maybe im a bit of a dreamer lol. Also squirtle has invincibilty frames in his fsmash to kill fair or dair happy peachs. Feel free to disagree i just stated using pkmn trainer as a strong secondary and peach has always been my main

 

[_Keno_]

The peach forums are also discussing this in our Q and A thread.

 

[Bomber7]

The peach forums are also discussing this in our Q and A thread.

ooops, I had a feeling about that, maybe I should have posted the link and said, "post here" my bad lol.

 

[Bestiarius]

BLI7ZARD, I didn't even think about watergun. That could be a viable option. I'm just not experienced enough.
@Bomber: dang, Dom, I wish it was so, but I'm facing the wrong way, so it's actually like I'm the whole circumference of the earth away from you .

 

[Bomber7]

BLI7ZARD, I didn't even think about watergun. That could be a viable option. I'm just not experienced enough.

OOOOOOHHHHH OHHHHHH I CAN HELP YOU THERE.

Just spam the **** out of fully charged waterguns win or lose and you will learn fast of what they can do and how to use them. I like using watergun for spacing purposes and countering aerials and stuff and set up my attack, which is what I preach all the time. I'm not a mater at it but I'm getting there. I'd give myself a 60% efficiency rate on my use of waterfun..... gun (too lazy to change it)

 

[Bestiarius]

Your efficiency is 60%? 60% of the time, it works every time.

 

[Bomber7]

Your efficiency is 60%? 60% of the time, it works every time.

what?

 

[CoonTail]

First Id like to say thank you bomber for understanding because that is my point.....the speed change has honestly been the biggest reason I start zard Im a more methodical aggressive zard so Ill wait a sec to get in but only after Ive seen or made the oppourtunity. But the speed change throws alot of people off because Zard to squirtle is essentially like DK to sonic more or less.

-Blizzard if your talking about watergunning out of grab releases it jus dont happen with squirtle its aweful.....if thats not what you were talkin about then my bad.

-Lastly beast oh man the put downs are aweful man just play some wifi figuring every wifi player swears they got better because of it(I wont even comment) But thanks for backing me up man and as far as watergun goes as long as you dont do it the wrong way or jus completely miss your opp then there is no such thing as a wrong time to use it. I love watergun its an amazing tool and honestly once you get good at it you can really throw your opponents off which as seen from my zard discussion is my for-te lol. Either way man your 533 posts deep Id expect you to have a good amount of knowledge and last I heard M2K didnt even practice with people till he moved he jus played training mode for 3-6 hours a day and I believe SK92 did the same. So jus look around man theres to many tools to getting good at brawl and with minds like Toby(my fav PT main lol), Bomber, Mr Brown, reflex, fearmy, typh, vermy, Magik, T-Block, and myself you should deff be able to get the help to make you better!!!!! If you go to allisbrawl.com the newest article is one about choking and long term choking read it man it will change the way you bash yourself man.

 

[Vinnie]

Ice_Coon45 had offline friendlies vs my Peach today...

I secondary a pretty good Peach...

He handled me...