Dr. Mario

[Deleted member]

A puzzle based fighter might be more appropriate with a character like Lip or Mallo then Dr.Mario. Not in a "burn in hell clones" type way, but from a prospective of introducing a new series that represents the puzzle genre as a whole.

Except that it would be rather random for Lip or Mallo to start chucking Megavitamins, while on the opposite end, it's not too strange to see Dr. Mario spawn Dr. Mario themed Garbage Blocks or have somewhere in his moves have him push or pull blocks.

 

[SmashChu]

I am pretty sure the poll you are talking about is some Japanese poll which said, "which cut Melee character do you want to return for Smash 4", of which the results went Roy>Mewtwo>Dr.Mario>(and forgot where Pichu and Young Link went after that).

Dr. Mario has more support as a character than Pichu and Young Link. He has more support than Pichu due to not being a joke character (its sad to see that the concept of a joke character is lost on so many people), and Young Link is not supported due to Toon Link essentially being a more modern design for him with weird body proportions.

I mean compare Pichu coming back:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/64958227

Over half of people don't want Pichu back in any form.

Here is what happened with Dr. Mario by comparison:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/64958227

Nearly half of people want him back as a costume with no stat changes from regular Mario, while 1/3 basically want him back as his own character (whether with his own slot, as DLC, or a costume with stat changes), while only 17% don't want Doc back in any form.

Second link is actually Pichu.

One problem on a lot of site (esspecially GameFAQs) is they say who's going to get in based on strange criteria. It doesn't surprise me they would rather have Doc as a costume. Of course, I say, if your gonna make him a costume, you might as well do the little work that's left for a full on character.

 

[ChronoBound]

Here is the Dr. Mario poll link:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/64974797

Yeah, its funny how many people want Dr. Mario back, but at the same time don't realize that it would still be work to include him even as a costume, and think it would take a massive amount of effort to give him different stats after making a model and animations for him.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Except that it would be rather random for Lip or Mallo to start chucking Megavitamins, while on the opposite end, it's not too strange to see Dr. Mario spawn Dr. Mario themed Garbage Blocks or have somewhere in his moves have him push or pull blocks.

Lip chucking Megavitamins? Makes actually sense in context if she's to refer at puzzle games aside from using magic stuff. It would be a funny and a neat reference.
Mallo too even, to a less extent: he could reference at Adventure of Lolo-series with the pushable blocks and so on.

The thing is, Doc being given all kinds of moves from other puzzle games, would feel rather forced because it would come out as out of character. He'd just be Mr Game & Watch-styled Mario with puzzle game references. None has ever seen him pushing or pulling blocks around. Same for throwing out garbage blocks.

Mario doesn't need to represent puzzle genre from already representing countless of other genres he's been in already: since he's most well-known for platformers, not puzzle games. Otherwise people would start to support different incarnations of Mario (or even Link) to represent other Nintendo's genres, which would feel pretty awkward.

Smash doesn't need same versions of the character with slightly altered movesets all the time just because Doc and Toon Link exist. And I'd rather have an original character than Doc representing the puzzle genre in his moveset.

 

[Deleted member]

So Doc being given puzzle moves is forced, but Lip and Mallo throwing Megavitamins wouldn't be?

And it would be out of character, while Captain Falcon, a stoic racer, suddenly being a hot-blooded firey Kamen Rider fighter isn't?

Falco isn't essentially another version of Fox with slightly altered moves JUST BECAUSE he's not an alternate universe version of a character (Doc) or another incarnation of a legacy character that happens to be from an alternate time branch (Toon Link)?

There's a fine line where I quit arguing points due to insanity, and it's reaching that point...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The idea that Doc might return in smash4 is a bit silly. If Mario is going to appear in a second form, it'd almost certainly be Paper Mario. However much support people think Doc has, I just don't think it compares to Paper Mario in the slightest. And let's be honest, if they included Mario, Doctor Mario, and Paper Mario all in the roster at the same time... come on now...

 

[Deleted member]

Considering that Doc was planned to return to Brawl while Papes wasn't planned in the slightest, it's clear that if there was Mario #2, it's Doc.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

How is that? He was planned, and then scrapped for a reason. Whereas paper mario wasn't planned for reasons you don't know, like that they just didn't think of it. There was no demand for paper mario in brawl afaik. But he has a following for ssb4 now. I'm not saying he'll be added, but I AM saying that doc won't.

 

[ChronoBound]

How is that? He was planned, and then scrapped for a reason. Whereas paper mario wasn't planned for reasons you don't know, like that they just didn't think of it. There was no demand for paper mario in brawl afaik. But he has a following for ssb4 now. I'm not saying he'll be added, but I AM saying that doc won't.

I was around for pre-Brawl, there was certainly people requesting Paper Mario. He was not as requested as Geno or Bowser Jr, but he still had quite a few requests.

As for Dr. Mario being scrapped, we don't know the reason why. We do know that Sakurai has said that more characters were planned, and that he was unable to finish those characters due to time constraints. Its possible that the only thing that kept Dr. Mario out was a lack of time.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

and there will be no time constraints on ssb4 for what reason? You think they'll add EVERY character they want to just because... why exactly? Even if they're thinking about adding doc, he's gonna be way below any newcomers on the list of priorities, just like he was for brawl. Because nobody cares about him. He's not a character. He's filler.

 

[Deleted member]

How is that? He was planned, and then scrapped for a reason. Whereas paper mario wasn't planned for reasons you don't know, like that they just didn't think of it. There was no demand for paper mario in brawl afaik. But he has a following for ssb4 now. I'm not saying he'll be added, but I AM saying that doc won't.

And how is that? For one, you claim that there is no known reason to him not making the cut, yet it apparently means he isn't coming back. I'd love to see you explain that.

Or are Mewtwo and Roy not coming back since there were "scrapped for a reason"? Go on. Let's see if you're one of those people.


EDIT: Oh, he's filler. I see. So being the star of his own spin-off series means he is filler.
Or is it because the whole "he's just Mario" excuse? Well then, wouldn't that make Paper Mario filler too? Why is he so likely? Or "almost certainly" the 2nd Mario as you put it?
If filler is the issue, then by all means, let's axe other filler characters like Jigglypuff. No one cares about the damn thing anyway.

EDIT2: Not a real character? Hmm. Then explain R.O.B. and G&W. How are THEY "real characters", when one is a peripheral and the other doesn't even exist within the series he is claimed to be from. Should they be removed too? After all, no one wanted them; they are filler.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Now you're just being stupid. Jiggs has been in every game, and is an extremely popular character.

Doc is filler... becuase he's filler. I really dont' know how else to explain this to you. He's identical to Mario. He was added to pad the melee roster. He was not added because "hey this would make a great addition to the game that everybody was hoping to see!" The more smash games they make, the more ideas they get from the public on who they want to see. They're not going to spend time programming a filler character that could have been spent on a newcomer. SSB4 is not going to have a roster small enough to require padding, like Melee.

If Roy and Mewtwo return, it'll be because of, gee I dunno, the ridiculously high demand for their return. Doc has no such demand. Mario fans have Mario, they do not need Doc.

 

[Deleted member]

Care to prove that Jigglypuff is extremely popular, or are you trying to make random justifications out your ***?
And being in every game doesn't make it/her any less filler.
Let's see, it's/she's an easy to add character in 64 due to copying Kirby's model and a great sum of Kirby's attacks, seen as a joke character by the director of the Smash series, barely made it into Brawl (was with Mewtwo, Roy, and Doc near the end of the data), and is hardly notable within the home series it/she comes from anymore. Hell, she wasn't even important to the series when she was added, either. "But but the anime!" Oh right, you mean the one where it/she would have a few appearances compared to Meowth's nearly every episode appearances even TO THIS DAY?
I'd say that qualifies as a filler.

And really, you don't know how things work. "They're not going to spend time programming a filler character that could have been spent on a newcomer."?
That "Joker" in your name suits you well. If Sakurai wants to bring Doc back, he's going to bring Doc back. He's not going to go "Hmm, we COULD add this character, but NAH, let's go with some filler like Dr. Mario instead because lulz". Chances are, that character that Doc would be "taking time away from" would not get in either way, Doc or no Doc.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, so I'm not even going to bother debating this with you. You don't even know why Jiggs is in smash bros.

 

[Deleted member]

Your ignorance and stupidity feeds me. Give me more of it.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Playing Mario, he has a lot of potential though a few problems hold him back. His attack power is not one of them.

i couldnt agree with this statement more

 

[Diddy Kong]

As for the whole "just give Mario Doc's properties", do you not understand that Mario is meant to be the Jack of All Stats? He's not meant to be "one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros. ever"; He's meant to be that one character with no great strengths or glaring weaknesses.

Lol but DOCTOR MARIO is supposed to be all powerful? The only things different about them are the Forward Aerial, the pill and the Forward Smash. And that's honestly all. Make Mario's Forward Aerial have a sweet spot that hits like Doc's and otherwise be a slight meteor as before (or the other way around, idontcarelol) the fire balls a bit more useful and powerful, and make his Forward Smash much like Doc's but with the famous fire hand and he's all GOOD.

Really, you'd say just about anything to justify Dr.Mario being in wouldn't you?

I say no to the doc, unless he comes with another Mario newcomer and they don't have time to add in another character from Mario and NEED to buff the Mario characters roster in comparision to others (say, if Pokemon / Zelda also got 6 slots, or if DK and Fire Emblem reach the oh-so-desired 4 character spots).

 

[Deleted member]

Lol but DOCTOR MARIO is supposed to be all powerful? The only things different about them are the Forward Aerial, the pill and the Forward Smash. And that's honestly all. Make Mario's Forward Aerial have a sweet spot that hits like Doc's and otherwise be a slight meteor as before (or the other way around, idontcarelol) the fire balls a bit more useful and powerful, and make his Forward Smash much like Doc's but with the famous fire hand and he's all GOOD.

Really, you'd say just about anything to justify Dr.Mario being in wouldn't you?

You don't read anything but a select paragraph, do you?

If you had read on, you would have read this:

You are missing the point. The point of Doc isn't to make a better Mario or a worse Mario. It was to offer a different flavor outside the Jack of All-Stats Mario is supposed to be. It just so happens that Doc's flavor was more favorable in competitive standings to where Doc is higher on the Tier List.
For every bonus Doc got, there was an equal drawback.
Doc, while having some more power in his moves and less situational attacks compared to Mario (like the F-Air), he was slower in his moves and had a worse recovery overall (Super Sheet was stronger and longer than Cape, but did not lift him in the air that much).

Ironically, the first sentence applies to you as well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Luigi is already a good enough alternative to Mario.

 

[Deleted member]

And Lucario is a good enough alternative to Mewtwo. We don't need him back either.

 

[Ove]

The only things different about them are the Forward Aerial, the pill and the Forward Smash. And that's honestly all.

News to me.

 

[Shirekeldeo7]

I did like Dr. Mario but he was too origianl to Mario at least make him a costume for Mario and when Mario is in Dr. Mario form he'll have the same moves like in melee so that way they'll be a fair share plus he'll be a unlockable costume how about that

 

[SmallSquatch]

That depends on how floaty SSB4 is. Doc's bair worked so well in Melee because everyone fell so fast and the angle on Doc's bair was great.

In Brawl, most of the important characters would still be able to recovery if the bair was as weak as it was in Melee.

Edit: Actually, if Mario's bair became similar to MK's dair, I think I'd take that.

I would like Mario to have Doc's power. Particularly in his Fair, Dsmash, and Fsmash. Mario just doesn't hit hard enough right now.

I'm not a big fan of either's Fair.

 

[chriscapnz]

just give him a doc costume

 

[Diddy Kong]

And Lucario is a good enough alternative to Mewtwo. We don't need him back either.

Are you seriously comparing Dr.Mario to Mewtwo now?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Are you seriously comparing Dr.Mario to Mewtwo now?

Seriously comparing? No.

Trollface was there for a reason.

 

[volbound1700]

I wouldn't mind seeing him back. I hope he is in at least as an alternate costume but in reality it would be easier to make him a clone character if you already designed all the animation. It wouldn't take much more at all.

Clones were put in because they took 1/20th of the time as a normal character. Most of the time is spent on the animation as the move sets are already there to be copied.

 

[LunchPolice]

Just reading through this thread... it's surprisingly vicious for a conversation about whether or not the next Smash game will have Mario in a doctor's suit as a seperate character to Mario in a plumber's suit. Seems pretty obvious he won't get in unless they're desperate to pad out the roster. I mean... he's literally just Mario.

EDIT: Oh, he's filler. I see. So being the star of his own spin-off series means he is filler.
Or is it because the whole "he's just Mario" excuse? Well then, wouldn't that make Paper Mario filler too? Why is he so likely? Or "almost certainly" the 2nd Mario as you put it?

Sure Paper Mario is also the same guy, but... I don't believe Paper Mario is canon to the main series. I mean... everything's made out of paper. Being able to move in 3D space is a special ability in that series. The style is totally different. And even if he was exactly the same character, he'd bring something to the table movesetwise. Unlike Doc, Paper Mario has some pretty unique abilities in his games. I don't think that's a fair comparison.

If filler is the issue, then by all means, let's axe other filler characters like Jigglypuff. No one cares about the damn thing anyway.

Care to prove that Jigglypuff is extremely popular, or are you trying to make random justifications out your ***?
And being in every game doesn't make it/her any less filler.
Let's see, it's/she's an easy to add character in 64 due to copying Kirby's model and a great sum of Kirby's attacks, seen as a joke character by the director of the Smash series, barely made it into Brawl (was with Mewtwo, Roy, and Doc near the end of the data), and is hardly notable within the home series it/she comes from anymore. Hell, she wasn't even important to the series when she was added, either. "But but the anime!" Oh right, you mean the one where it/she would have a few appearances compared to Meowth's nearly every episode appearances even TO THIS DAY?
I'd say that qualifies as a filler.

Jigglypuff isn't filler because she has a decently different moveset to Kirby and she's been there from the start(IMO that does mean something... she's got veteran status). She's definitely well differentiated from Kirby moveset-wise, while Dr Mario is just Mario. In a doctor's suit. Jigglypuff isn't particularly relevant in the Pokemon series but she is relevant to Smash. She's an easy-to-make character who offers something to the game. That's plenty motivation to keep her in. Unfortunately I can't say how popular she is because then I'd have no idea what I'm talking about. But she's like 3rd on the Melee tier list iirc. That... probably means something...

Not a real character? Hmm. Then explain R.O.B. and G&W. How are THEY "real characters", when one is a peripheral and the other doesn't even exist within the series he is claimed to be from. Should they be removed too? After all, no one wanted them; they are filler.

They're "real characters" because for one, both of them are relevant to Nintendo's history. R.O.B was what helped sell the NES in the first place, and Game and Watch represents their first step into handheld gaming. Sure no one was asking for them - they were fun and unexpected new characters. They shouldn't be removed because they have totally original movesets that add variety to the game. I wouldn't call them filler, because it's not like they just wanted to beef up the roster by slightly tweaking like three of an existing character's moves, adding a taunt and calling it a day. They would have taken a lot of time to create from scratch. Dr. Mario is like, the definition of filler. He was added because they wanted to add more characters to a relatively small roster and fast. I doubt Sakurai sees him as anything but an extra. Given his new philosophy of making SSB4 different rather than just adding more, I really doubt we'll see Doc again.

 

[Deleted member]

Just reading through this thread... it's surprisingly vicious for a conversation about whether or not the next Smash game will have Mario in a doctor's suit as a seperate character to Mario in a plumber's suit. Seems pretty obvious he won't get in unless they're desperate to pad out the roster. I mean... he's literally just Mario.

So is Paper Mario. If you support Paper Mario but do not support Dr. Mario because "he's just Mario", you're a hypocrate. The only "Mario" that can be supported in that case would be Metal Mario, because he's been completely established as a seperate being (being "Mario's heavyweight rival" as opposed to "Mario's heavyweight alter-ego/transformation") as of Mario Kart 7.

Sure Paper Mario is also the same guy, but... I don't believe Paper Mario is canon to the main series. I mean... everything's made out of paper. Being able to move in 3D space is a special ability in that series. The style is totally different. And even if he was exactly the same character, he'd bring something to the table movesetwise. Unlike Doc, Paper Mario has some pretty unique abilities in his games. I don't think that's a fair comparison.

This is a Goomba. Goombas are what you'd call "small fries." Actually, they're pretty much the smallest fries. ...Hey, wait! I'm one of 'em! You can jump on them or whack 'em with the Hammer. These guys are old school. They've been around since you were in Super Mario Bros.!

You were saying? Paper Mario is within the exact same canon as the rest of the series, just under a different art style. Mario's merely able to take advantage of that art style.
Whereas Dr. Mario is implied by Miyamoto himself to not be within the same canon (either that, or merely Dr. Mario is not a "real" doctor like many people make jokes about, but being outside the canon makes more sense when you factor in the HUGE inconsistencies in Dr. Mario 64's story....)

Game Informer: Mario has been a boxing referee, a doctor, an Olympian, and a carpenter. Are all these official careers in Mario lore? If he has a medical degree, why does he continue his plumbing business?

Shigeru Miyamoto: There's really only one rule in terms of the things that Mario does. Generally, it's that he's more on the blue-collar side. He's hard-working, and certainly much more physical in nature. So, I think that a doctor is sort of an unexpected and perhaps unbelievable role for Mario. Perhaps the Dr. Mario you're thinking of was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.

Aside from that, saying Dr. Mario doesn't have unique abilities from vanilla Mario while Paper Mario does is not a fair comparison either, considering that he doesn't really do much on-screen other than tossing pills (as in, Dr. Mario doesn't do what Mario does nor does Mario do what Dr. Mario does) , which is more than Captain Falcon ever did in the F-Zero games, yet he was able to get a fiery Kamen Rider-esque style of fighting out of nowhere. To act as though Dr. Mario can't get a moveset more reflective of him being a doctor or him being a character from the puzzle genre of gaming while we get FARUKON PAUNCH is insane.

Jigglypuff isn't filler because she has a decently different moveset to Kirby and she's been there from the start(IMO that does mean something... she's got veteran status). She's definitely well differentiated from Kirby moveset-wise, while Dr Mario is just Mario. In a doctor's suit. Jigglypuff isn't particularly relevant in the Pokemon series but she is relevant to Smash. She's an easy-to-make character who offers something to the game. That's plenty motivation to keep her in. Unfortunately I can't say how popular she is because then I'd have no idea what I'm talking about. But she's like 3rd on the Melee tier list iirc. That... probably means something...

You are already showing you have no idea what you are talking about. Having "veteran status" doesn't make Jigglypuff any less of a filler. The fact that she was included as an easy edit of Kirby with some different moves while viewed as the token Joke Character by Sakurai himself says otherwise.
Hell, she was low priority in Brawl compared to the other veterans from 64. She was among Mewtwo, Roy, and, *gasp* Dr. Mario in being the last veterans in the data, seperated from the rest by the Nintendo Newcomers (Snake and Sonic were deliberately put at the end of the data due to being guests) other than Toon Link and Wolf, who were also low priority.
And I am to assume that if Dr. Mario had some changes from Mario to make him a semi-clone (which Brawl would have likely given him and Roy like it did for Falco and Ganondorf), he wouldn't be filler by your definition? If not, that's being hypocritical.
And the fact you use Melee's tier list as if it meant something is completely laughable. It means absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Especially when you factor in that Dr. Mario is 9th compared to Mario's 13th, making whatever argument it was your were trying to make using the tiers complete hogwash.

They're "real characters" because for one, both of them are relevant to Nintendo's history. R.O.B was what helped sell the NES in the first place, and Game and Watch represents their first step into handheld gaming. Sure no one was asking for them - they were fun and unexpected new characters. They shouldn't be removed because they have totally original movesets that add variety to the game. I wouldn't call them filler, because it's not like they just wanted to beef up the roster by slightly tweaking like three of an existing character's moves, adding a taunt and calling it a day. They would have taken a lot of time to create from scratch. Dr. Mario is like, the definition of filler. He was added because they wanted to add more characters to a relatively small roster and fast. I doubt Sakurai sees him as anything but an extra. Given his new philosophy of making SSB4 different rather than just adding more, I really doubt we'll see Doc again.

Dude. Do you not know what it means to be a "real" character?
It means to be fricking REAL.
There WAS no "Mr. Game & Watch" prior to Melee. He wasn't a "real" character because he didn't EXIST. He was an original character for Melee.
Likewise, there's R.O.B. the limited-motion peripheral that played two games with you, then there's R.O.B. the Master Robot who can shoot lasers and fly. One of these didn't exist prior to Brawl. Can you guess who? (Why do you think his symbol directly incorporates the symbol for the Subspace Emissary? Because he IS the "Subspace Emissary"! (hint: look up what "emissary" means))

And "slightly tweaking like three of an existing character's moves"? You really don't know what in the Hell you are talking about. Why do you think Dr. Mario is considerably higher than Mario in the Tier List? If they were near the same, don't you think they'd be closer together like how Fox and Falco are?

Here's a list of major differences between the two that affects playstyle:

Dr. Mario is slower in attack speed, but makes up for it in attack strength. Doc also has faster air speed.
Also, in the PAL version, Dr. Mario is actually heavier than Mario (while Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario share the same weight in other regions, Mario is slightly lighter than the other two in PAL).

-Doc's Down Tilt sends foes behind him, while Mario's pops them into the air.
-Aside from the swap from fire to electricty, the Forward Smash has a sweetspot closer to Doc's body, compared to Mario's having a sweetspot farther away from him.
-Doc's Neutral Air gets stronger the longer he has his leg out, Mario's gets weaker.
-Mario's Forward Air is a Meteor. Doc's isn't and is arguably more reliable.
-Doc's Dash Attack has slightly more range and launches foes in a random trajectory, while Mario's knocks them diagonally behind him.
-Doc's Up Tilt has slightly more knockback and has a different trajectory depending on where he hits.
-Doc's Up Smash is faster but weaker than Mario's.
-Megavitamins have more hitstun, do more damage, and have a considerably different trajectory to Mario's Fireballs.
-Super Sheet does more damage and has a longer reach than Mario's Cape. It also has more lag and can only give a vertical boost once, making it practically useless as a recovery option unlike the Cape.
-Dr. Tornado does more knockback and damage than Mario Tornado, and it also scatters opponents in random directions. It takes faster taps of the B button for full strength and height distance, however, and it is easier for opponents to use to Directional Influence to escape from.
-Super Jump Punch is stronger but hits less times.

So, in summation:
-Dr. Mario is not the same as Mario in terms of playstyle.
-Dr. Mario is (possibly) from a parallel universe where Mario is a doctor searching for a cure for the common cold rather than a plumber constantly saving Princess Peach (who is Nurse Toadstool in the Dr. Mario canon) from the clutches of Bowser.
-Dr. Mario can be made different just as easily as Paper Mario can, and conversely, Paper Mario can be made similar just as easily as Dr. Mario was.
-Jigglypuff is a filler Joke Character that gained a fanbase.
-Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were not "real" prior to their Smash debuts.

If you don't understand all that after this, don't bother responding. I will not pay attention to further ignorance.

 

[LunchPolice]

So is Paper Mario. If you support Paper Mario but do not support Dr. Mario because "he's just Mario", you're a hypocrate. The only "Mario" that can be supported in that case would be Metal Mario, because he's been completely established as a seperate being (being "Mario's heavyweight rival" as opposed to "Mario's heavyweight alter-ego/transformation") as of Mario Kart 7.
Paper Mario is within the exact same canon as the rest of the series, just under a different art style. Mario's merely able to take advantage of that art style.

Maybe they are the same canon - while that does really puzzle me, the point is that they're functionally different. In Super Paper Mario he can use bombs, shoot sound waves, swing a hammer, become surrounded with a damaging barrier, and more. He has, like, actual special moves. Stuff that could translate into Smash and actually be relevant to his own games rather than be something they just made up.

Aside from that, saying Dr. Mario doesn't have unique abilities from vanilla Mario while Paper Mario does is not a fair comparison either, considering that he doesn't really do much on-screen other than tossing pills (as in, Dr. Mario doesn't do what Mario does nor does Mario do what Dr. Mario does) , which is more than Captain Falcon ever did in the F-Zero games, yet he was able to get a fiery Kamen Rider-esque style of fighting out of nowhere. To act as though Dr. Mario can't get a moveset more reflective of him being a doctor or him being a character from the puzzle genre of gaming while we get FARUKON PAUNCH is insane.

While it is possible to just come up with a new, unique moveset for Dr. Mario, I doubt he'd be very high priority. It seems like we're not getting that many new characters this time around, so I doubt they'd be willing to spend much time adding new moves to Dr. Mario when they could direct their resources elsewhere. I think they'd rather tweak Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf and the like even further rather than bring in another clone character with slight adjustments (When it comes to Mario, Luigi pretty much fills that role anyway). Sure Captain Falcon and Fox were given totally new movesets out of nowhere, but there's a difference here. Captain Falcon and Fox are beloved Nintendo characters that were begging to be represented somehow - while Dr. Mario is just... their mascot in a different costume. This guy probably won't get the same special treatment. Besides, they seemed to worry about making their characters accurate a lot less back in SSB64. I mean, they didn't even do seemingly obvious things to make their characters more accurate like give Donkey Kong his roll as a dash attack or something.

You are already showing you have no idea what you are talking about. Having "veteran status" doesn't make Jigglypuff any less of a filler. The fact that she was included as an easy edit of Kirby with some different moves while viewed as the token Joke Character by Sakurai himself says otherwise.

She might be filler, but her moveset is different enough to be worth consideration. At least she fits into the game somewhere, even if it is as the token joke. She still adds some kind of legitimately different extra content to the game, so... why not keep her? Dr. Mario could be differentiated from Mario in a similar way, but it seems like a waste of time to me when Mario's already in the game and well... again, Dr. Mario IS Mario. What exactly is the motivation here? Who is the target audience? If Jigglypuff has as small a fanbase as you say, I guess I should take that into consideration, but outside of popularity, at least she's "the joke character". Like Dan in Street Fighter. He's pretty cloneish, but he's different enough and he has a place. Dr. Mario is just the edited Mario, which already exists in the series.

Hell, she was low priority in Brawl compared to the other veterans from 64. She was among Mewtwo, Roy, and, *gasp* Dr. Mario in being the last veterans in the data, seperated from the rest by the Nintendo Newcomers (Snake and Sonic were deliberately put at the end of the data due to being guests) other than Toon Link and Wolf, who were also low priority.

Well, maybe she is low priority. Apparently she's higher priority than Dr. Mario, seeing as she made it into the game. I'm not really sure why we talked about Jigglypuff in the first place anyway. Whether she gets in the next Smash game or not doesn't seem particularly relevant. Jigglypuff has a shot at getting in - a shot that's better than Dr.Mario's (I guess the proof of that would be Brawl.). The next Smash game will likely involve less in the way of new characters, so I doubt they're gonna be adding anyone back in unless they're hugely popular like Mewtwo.

And I am to assume that if Dr. Mario had some changes from Mario to make him a semi-clone (which Brawl would have likely given him and Roy like it did for Falco and Ganondorf), he wouldn't be filler by your definition? If not, that's being hypocritical.

Mario already has a semi-clone. What would be the point? BTW, just out of curiosity, would you consider this a good new character idea had Doc not been in Melee previously?

And the fact you use Melee's tier list as if it meant something is completely laughable. It means absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Especially when you factor in that Dr. Mario is 9th compared to Mario's 13th, making whatever argument it was your were trying to make using the tiers complete hogwash.

Alright, that's fair enough.

Dude. Do you not know what it means to be a "real" character?
It means to be fricking REAL.
There WAS no "Mr. Game & Watch" prior to Melee. He wasn't a "real" character because he didn't EXIST. He was an original character for Melee.
Likewise, there's R.O.B. the limited-motion peripheral that played two games with you, then there's R.O.B. the Master Robot who can shoot lasers and fly. One of these didn't exist prior to Brawl. Can you guess who? (Why do you think his symbol directly incorporates the symbol for the Subspace Emissary? Because he IS the "Subspace Emissary"! (hint: look up what "emissary" means))

Sure, R.O.B couldn't shoot lasers in real life. It's just a fun interpretation. You know, so he can actually function in the game. Link can't really double-jump either. Link couldn't really beat Samus in a fight. Ness has spells he doesn't even use in Earthbound iirc. It's still Ness, right? As far as Mr. Game and Watch goes, he's... well, he's from the Game and Watch. I mean sure none of the characters in those games were ever named or given context but he just represents a generic guy from Game and Watch and takes moves from the source material in general. In Super Smash Brothers they have totally unique movesets and offer new things to the table. That's why I consider them "real characters". Maybe real isn't the best word.

And "slightly tweaking like three of an existing character's moves"? You really don't know what in the Hell you are talking about. Why do you think Dr. Mario is considerably higher than Mario in the Tier List? If they were near the same, don't you think they'd be closer together like how Fox and Falco are?

Well... Sakurai seems to care a lot about casuals, and to the casual gamer, Mario and Dr. Mario are pretty much the same. Or, even to a hardcore gamer. I think you have to be pretty into gaming to know about the difference between Mario and Dr. Mario's down-tilt. Falco and Ganondorf used to be very cloneish but even in Melee they felt very different just to manuever around. Maybe I just haven't played as Dr. Mario in ages but he feels pretty much identical. Would they really add another whole character slot for "Mario with different stats and sometimes slightly different move properties"?

-Dr. Mario can be made different just as easily as Paper Mario can, and conversely, Paper Mario can be made similar just as easily as Dr. Mario was.

Well... that actually seems kinda difficult considering how Paper Mario works. I mean he's kinda tween animated. It's not really as simple as a model-swap. But if it were, I think he'd have a better shot at being a Mario clone than Doc. He could take up that same spot on the roster except he'd represent a more modern series that still gets new games and stuff. He'd be kinda like Young Link to Toon Link.

If you don't understand all that after this, don't bother responding. I will not pay attention to further ignorance.

So... if I don't agree with you, you're not gonna talk to me anymore? And if I did agree with you, then... I guess you'd have nothing else to talk about, and would stop talking to me. That's pretty clever. So... I guess this is the last post in this conversation. Huh. That's... kinda lame : /

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe they are the same canon - while that does really puzzle me, the point is that they're functionally different. In Super Paper Mario he can use bombs, shoot sound waves, swing a hammer, become surrounded with a damaging barrier, and more. He has, like, actual special moves. Stuff that could translate into Smash and actually be relevant to his own games rather than be something they just made up.

Mario does different things in each game. Super Paper Mario is no exception.
Aside from that, just because someone CAN be different doesn't mean they will. Remember Toon Link? He had Bombchus, Deku Leaf, and a Skull Hammer that could set him different from Link, but instead, he just uses the same exact moves and weapons as Link save for kicking attacks due to his tiny legs.
The fact that Paper Mario can literally do everything Mario can (even shoot Fireballs as of Sticker Star) puts Papes in the same boat.
What's that? He doesn't use F.L.U.D.D.? Not a problem; Flurrie comes in and does the same thing, but with wind instead of water.
He doesn't have a cape? A sticker sheet will suffice in the same way. Afterall, Dr. Mario was given a "Super Sheet", whatever the Hell THAT is....

While it is possible to just come up with a new, unique moveset for Dr. Mario, I doubt he'd be very high priority. It seems like we're not getting that many new characters this time around, so I doubt they'd be willing to spend much time adding new moves to Dr. Mario when they could direct their resources elsewhere. I think they'd rather tweak Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf and the like even further rather than bring in another clone character with slight adjustments (When it comes to Mario, Luigi pretty much fills that role anyway). Sure Captain Falcon and Fox were given totally new movesets out of nowhere, but there's a difference here. Captain Falcon and Fox are beloved Nintendo characters that were begging to be represented somehow - while Dr. Mario is just... their mascot in a different costume. This guy probably won't get the same special treatment. Besides, they seemed to worry about making their characters accurate a lot less back in SSB64. I mean, they didn't even do seemingly obvious things to make their characters more accurate like give Donkey Kong his roll as a dash attack or something.

1. Dr. Mario isn't new. He was a Melee veteran that was planned for Brawl, but scrapped for time.
2. Clones have never been that big of an issue; each game in the series has at least one.
3. Luigi doesn't fill the same role Doc had. Are you seriously suggesting that Luigi and Doc play the same now?
4. Your reasoning for Fox and Captain Falcon is heavily flawed:
-For one, no one was begging for ANYONE in the original Smash, it was the first game in the series and no one knew a damn thing about it.
-Captain Falcon was added because Sakurai liked him, simple as that. (Sakurai reportedly said Falcon was one of his favorite characters)
-That being said, Dr. Mario was also liked by Sakurai (and his music, which notably was a major reason Sakurai wanted to include him), otherwise, he wouldn't have been Mario's clone if Mario even had a clone at all. He could have made the clone be Wario, who originally started out as an evil copy of Mario. (And before you bring up how Wario had his own abilities from Wario Land, remember that Ganondorf never did anything remotely similar to a Falcon Punch prior to Melee; at least Wario WAS similar to Mario at some point in time.)
-Dr. Mario is from a very notable and popular puzzle series that Nintendo made if not the most notable and popular (depends on where Puzzle League stands).
-AGAIN, Miyamoto hinted that Dr. Mario is not the same Mario as the adventurous plumber in overalls, but rather from an alternative canon where he is a doctor who's mission in life is to find a cure for the common cold. It's the same deal as Toon Link, who isn't the same Link as the one in Brawl. They come from two different timeline branches and do not exist in each other's canon.
5. They STILL don't completely worry about canon, if you haven't noticed. Do you remember when Bowser used Flying Slam outside Brawl? How about Twilight Princess Zelda using spells Ocarina of Time Link used as well as a Sheik transformation? How about Wario; why is he biting like in a hot dog eating microgame and farting when he could charge at people with his shoulder and slam into the ground with his ass? Why is Ike not a Lord while using Ragnell, and instead, a Ranger?

She might be filler, but her moveset is different enough to be worth consideration. At least she fits into the game somewhere, even if it is as the token joke. She still adds some kind of legitimately different extra content to the game, so... why not keep her? Dr. Mario could be differentiated from Mario in a similar way, but it seems like a waste of time to me when Mario's already in the game and well... again, Dr. Mario IS Mario. What exactly is the motivation here? Who is the target audience? If Jigglypuff has as small a fanbase as you say, I guess I should take that into consideration, but outside of popularity, at least she's "the joke character". Like Dan in Street Fighter. He's pretty cloneish, but he's different enough and he has a place. Dr. Mario is just the edited Mario, which already exists in the series.

It's like you don't pay attention.
Let me say this ONE LAST EFFING TIME: MIYAMOTO HINTED THAT DR. MARIO IS NOT FROM THE SAME CANON AS MARIO. THIS IS FURTHER SUPPOTED WITH DR. MARIO 64'S HEAVY INCONSISTENCIES.
And Fox has two edits. Guess one of them should go, seeing as one is enough. How about Falco? He's more similar to Fox than Wolf is, and was added in Melee to expand the roster just like Dr. Mario. Let's cut him.
Aside from that, who's to say Luigi will still be a Mario edit this time around? Each Smash makes Luigi more and more different from Mario, and with Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon being released soon, he could just as easily be made barely the same by being equipped with the Poltergust.

Well, maybe she is low priority. Apparently she's higher priority than Dr. Mario, seeing as she made it into the game. I'm not really sure why we talked about Jigglypuff in the first place anyway. Whether she gets in the next Smash game or not doesn't seem particularly relevant. Jigglypuff has a shot at getting in - a shot that's better than Dr.Mario's (I guess the proof of that would be Brawl.). The next Smash game will likely involve less in the way of new characters, so I doubt they're gonna be adding anyone back in unless they're hugely popular like Mewtwo.

Except that given the circumstances, it's not exactly safe to say Jigglypuff will always be higher priority.

Let's get a little deeper with this:
-By the time Sonic was squeezed into the game, development had to be shifted to him. This left 6 characters left to be included within the time frame: Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, and Wolf.
-Note, that at this time, Pokemon only had 3 selectable characters compared to Mario's 4. This would mean that another Pokemon needed to get in before anything else.
-Jigglypuff was the easier of the two Pokemon to include. I mean, it's pretty much just a graphically updated port of Melee's model (as evident by Jigglypuff's air dodge having it begin its helpless animation for a frame, as Melee air dodges cause helplessness while Brawl air dodges don't), as compared to Mewtwo, who would need an updated model and animations.
-Toon Link came next to get the Zelda series another character as well, and while he isn't exactly like Link, he borrows plenty of his animations and moves, making him an easy add.
-Wolf came next for a similar reason, as he borrows animations from Fox (though he ended up not using a majority of them, and instead, was tweaked to get some of his own. Though he notably has some unused ones, like Fox's multi-kick.) Though he still uses some, like the results screen clapping animation, which is the exact same one as Fox (do a No Contest with both to see what I mean) and the ledge attacks and "get up" attacks, which Fox, Falco, and Wolf all share.

Notably, all three of these characters have this in common: they were easy adds. Roy and Dr. Mario would have been easy adds as well, but they had one thing in their way; there was no way either were going to get in before Mewtwo. Although, I suppose all three could have made it, if time wasn't taken to make Wolf more unique, and instead, that time was given to make Mewtwo.

Also, you keep forgetting that the likes of Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario aren't "new". And you seem to act as though we will hardly get any new characters, which has neither been said nor hinted at.

Mario already has a semi-clone. What would be the point? BTW, just out of curiosity, would you consider this a good new character idea had Doc not been in Melee previously?

Already addressed this point with Poltergust Luigi as well as Fox having both Falco and Wolf.
And no, had Doc not been in Melee, I would not be advocating for him. But it is the same for many of Smash's characters. Like Roy. Or Falco. Or Jigglypuff. Or Sheik. Or Ice Climbers. Or Mr. Game & Watch (who wouldn't exist today). Or R.O.B. Or Snake. Or Pokemon Trainer. Or Olimar. Or Captain Falcon. Or Ness. Or Lucas. I would not support the idea for any of them if they hadn't been in Smash at this point, regardless of how I like them or not.

Sure, R.O.B couldn't shoot lasers in real life. It's just a fun interpretation. You know, so he can actually function in the game. Link can't really double-jump either. Link couldn't really beat Samus in a fight. Ness has spells he doesn't even use in Earthbound iirc. It's still Ness, right? As far as Mr. Game and Watch goes, he's... well, he's from the Game and Watch. I mean sure none of the characters in those games were ever named or given context but he just represents a generic guy from Game and Watch and takes moves from the source material in general. In Super Smash Brothers they have totally unique movesets and offer new things to the table. That's why I consider them "real characters". Maybe real isn't the best word.

And once again, you are completely missing the point.
There was never a R.O.B. character prior to Brawl other than the one in Mario Kart DS and the one Kirby's Dream Land 3. Only the R.O.B. peripheral. And Brawl's R.O.B. was neither the MKDS R.O.B. nor the KDL3 R.O.B. (who has a different design), but an original character from The Subspace Emissary who is also used as an ambassador of the R.O.B. peripheral.
Just like how Mr. Game & Watch is literally NONE of the numerous existing nameless characters from the Game & Watch games, but serves as an ambassador of them while still being an original character made up of Shadow Bugs. Neither one existed prior to their Smash debuts, and thus were not "real". A similar example would be if there was a Sakurai Mii in Smash 4; the Sakurai Mii would be an original character to Smash, but it represents not only Sakurai himself, but the Miis in general.

And no, the Ness example doesn't work. It's stated outright that Paula and Poo taught Ness their moves within various trophies. While it's a bit of an asspull by Sakurai to explain how he can use them, the explanation is still there in-game.

Well... Sakurai seems to care a lot about casuals, and to the casual gamer, Mario and Dr. Mario are pretty much the same. Or, even to a hardcore gamer. I think you have to be pretty into gaming to know about the difference between Mario and Dr. Mario's down-tilt. Falco and Ganondorf used to be very cloneish but even in Melee they felt very different just to manuever around. Maybe I just haven't played as Dr. Mario in ages but he feels pretty much identical. Would they really add another whole character slot for "Mario with different stats and sometimes slightly different move properties"?

He cares about making the games easy for casuals to pick up and have chances at winning. That doesn't mean he gives a damn about every single nitpick like "this character is the same" or "this character is stupid". And the fact they already DID add another "Mario with different stats and different move properties" (the somtimes is false and also grammatically incorrect) in Melee and planned to keep him in Brawl means that it isn't farfetched to see it happen again in the future.

Well... that actually seems kinda difficult considering how Paper Mario works. I mean he's kinda tween animated. It's not really as simple as a model-swap. But if it were, I think he'd have a better shot at being a Mario clone than Doc. He could take up that same spot on the roster except he'd represent a more modern series that still gets new games and stuff. He'd be kinda like Young Link to Toon Link.

"More modern"? The Paper Mario series started more than a decade ago. Even if it debuted after the Dr. Mario series, that's hardly "modern" by any stretch of the means.
"Still gets new games and stuff"? Dr. Mario's last game was in 2009. Before Sticker Star, the last Paper Mario was in 2007. All that needs to happen is that Dr. Mario gets a new game, which given the 5 year gap between PM's, DM still has a year or so to "catch up" so to speak. One would be perfect on the Wii U using the Tablet screen.

Aside from that, Paper Mario would easily work as a semiclone, though like Toon Link, he'd probably have some less kicking moves due to his practically non-existant legs since TTYD.

So... if I don't agree with you, you're not gonna talk to me anymore? And if I did agree with you, then... I guess you'd have nothing else to talk about, and would stop talking to me. That's pretty clever. So... I guess this is the last post in this conversation. Huh. That's... kinda lame : /

If there was an award for completely missing the point the most, you'd have it.
It wasn't you not agreeing with me. It was if you didn't grasp the points after being laid out and even summarized (to which you DIDN'T, seeing as I had to constantly remind you of what Miyamoto said about Dr. Mario -_-), you shouldn't bother responding in the context that I hate having to repeat myself when I shouldn't, as you can now see firsthand.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dr.Mario just shouldn't get in. Period.

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah, I'm not sure how people can justify Paper Mario while delegitimize Doctor Mario despite the fact the latter was actually in a Smash Brothers game.

Just because the character could have a unique moveset doesn't mean they will.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just because a character was in Smash before, doesn't mean that it will be included this time.

GoldenY is really like an angry ginger when talking about Dr.Mario.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well Golden loves his lazy character rehashes, so that's a given.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wear white and throw pills, BOOM, I'm now a character!

 

[Deleted member]

Well Golden loves his lazy character rehashes, so that's a given.

Screw you. Doc is the only "rehash" I care about because I actually PLAYED as him to the point where he became my main due to me liking his style.
None of the other characters I support are rehashes. And before you bring up Dark Pit because of the thread I made, I'm not much of a supporter of him. Just wanted to make a thread for a character I felt wouldn't get one otherwise and to prove a point.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Give Mario propper powered Fire Balls, a more useful Forward Air and Forward Smash and you already got your ideal character man.

 

[Deleted member]

Except that was not all Dr. Mario had over Mario.
The fact you still not get this despite me saying all the known differences over and over again irritates me to no end.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then why not list all those changes, try to imagine a random character from Smash, think of that character's alter ego (if it has one) and try to justify it as a character? Clone are hated for a good reason, and even Luigi felt more different than Mario in Smash 64 than Dr.Mario did to Mrio in Melee. I don't want the lamest rehash of a clone of Smash back. Not if we not get a gaint roster full with clines anyway.