Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

[smashkng]

I think DDD gets a free Fsmash from Dthrow if he grabs us with the landing lag glitch we get from using Up b or Side b, so never get grabbed of him with that lag.

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: G&W's aerials are a pain, and all his smashes can kill REALLY early.
Ganon must time his aerials really well and with precision to counter.
A well timed Fair can rock G&W, and set him up for you to land-chase.
Gerudo-pivoting works really well if he's trying to "key" us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: G&W's aerials are a pain, and all his smashes can kill REALLY early.
Ganon must time his aerials really well and with precision to counter.
A well timed Fair can rock G&W, and set him up for you to land-chase.
Gerudo-pivoting works really well if he's trying to "key" us.

A2ZOMG: 20/80
G&W is very difficult for Ganon to do anything against. G&W out vertical spaces Ganon extremely well with fullhopped aerials, shield pokes him easily, juggles him to high damage very fast, and has a lot of options for either gimping or KOing Ganon very early. He's also much harder for Ganon to juggle than other characters and has a better closeup game. On a fundamental level he has all the tools (besides a chaingrab) to destroy Ganon.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: G&W's aerials are a pain, and all his smashes can kill REALLY early.
Ganon must time his aerials really well and with precision to counter.
A well timed Fair can rock G&W, and set him up for you to land-chase.
Gerudo-pivoting works really well if he's trying to "key" us.

A2ZOMG: 20/80
G&W is very difficult for Ganon to do anything against. G&W out vertical spaces Ganon extremely well with fullhopped aerials, shield pokes him easily, juggles him to high damage very fast, and has a lot of options for either gimping or KOing Ganon very early. He's also much harder for Ganon to juggle than other characters and has a better closeup game. On a fundamental level he has all the tools (besides a chaingrab) to destroy Ganon.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 20 - 80
Comment: Don't DI up unless he's going to fair, he'll just kill you earlier with fsmash, dsmash and dair. G&W's nair makes me rageface, Ganon can't do anything to him from above safely. If he's bair'ing, SDI up and towards G&W and deliver a fair or nair to his face.

He shield pokes you with dtilt and bair a lot. Do the A2Zomg and position your shield down and towards him to protect from dtilt and sh bair pokes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah you know there is a reason why I fullhop B-airs against Ganon too.

And I like how you're crediting me for suggesting to angle shield down. =)

 

[Vermanubis]

Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: G&W's aerials are a pain, and all his smashes can kill REALLY early.
Ganon must time his aerials really well and with precision to counter.
A well timed Fair can rock G&W, and set him up for you to land-chase.
Gerudo-pivoting works really well if he's trying to "key" us.

A2ZOMG: 20/80
G&W is very difficult for Ganon to do anything against. G&W out vertical spaces Ganon extremely well with fullhopped aerials, shield pokes him easily, juggles him to high damage very fast, and has a lot of options for either gimping or KOing Ganon very early. He's also much harder for Ganon to juggle than other characters and has a better closeup game. On a fundamental level he has all the tools (besides a chaingrab) to destroy Ganon.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 20 - 80
Comment: Don't DI up unless he's going to fair, he'll just kill you earlier with fsmash, dsmash and dair. G&W's nair makes me rageface, Ganon can't do anything to him from above safely. If he's bair'ing, SDI up and towards G&W and deliver a fair or nair to his face.

He shield pokes you with dtilt and bair a lot. Do the A2Zomg and position your shield down and towards him for dtilt's and sh bairs.

Vermanubis: 20:80
Comment: G&W is really tough, and if not for his extremely light weight, it'd be much worse. Everything he does outspaces you, he's impossible to gimp, he can kill you with relative ease, and his juggles are the absolute worst. He doesn't have anything that truly cripples Ganon, but he is just overall bad for him.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'll wait one more day before we move on.

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

 

[Bahamut777]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

Bahamut: 20-80
If Marth spaces himself the right way (which almost every Marth should be able to do constantly), there are no options left. Only our poor OoS. Lack of Gerudo FUs are really frustrating. All we can do is the gimping offstage to his not so grat recovery. Just be aware to not get stage spiked by UpB.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

Bahamut: 20-80
If Marth spaces himself the right way (which almost every Marth should be able to do constantly), there are no options left. Only our poor OoS. Lack of Gerudo FUs are really frustrating. All we can do is the gimping offstage to his not so grat recovery. Just be aware to not get stage spiked by UpB.

A2ZOMG: 25/75
For the most part, you only have to worry about this matchup being really terrible if you're going against a high level Marth user who understands how this matchup works. But aside from that Marth easily has the tools to bait and shut down Ganon's approaches, and can also safely pressure Ganon. He usually kills or edgeguards Ganon a lot more easily than the other way around. A less experienced Marth who makes punishable spacing mistakes can suffer offstage or when being juggled, and CPing him to strange stages can be worthwhile, but the lack of reliable choke combos on him is unfortunate.

 

[Vermanubis]

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

Bahamut: 20-80
If Marth spaces himself the right way (which almost every Marth should be able to do constantly), there are no options left. Only our poor OoS. Lack of Gerudo FUs are really frustrating. All we can do is the gimping offstage to his not so grat recovery. Just be aware to not get stage spiked by UpB.

A2ZOMG: 25/75
For the most part, you only have to worry about this matchup being really terrible if you're going against a high level Marth user who understands how this matchup works. But aside from that Marth easily has the tools to bait and shut down Ganon's approaches, and can also safely pressure Ganon. He usually kills or edgeguards Ganon a lot more easily than the other way around. A less experienced Marth who makes punishable spacing mistakes can suffer offstage or when being juggled, and CPing him to strange stages can be worthwhile, but the lack of reliable choke combos on him is unfortunate.

Vermanubis: 75:25
Comment: Marth would be a lot worse, but like G&W, he just doesn't have anything that specifically cripples Ganon. He has every tool in the world to shut Ganon down, but with enough MU experience and skill it can be pulled off. Marth can pressure Ganon EXTREMELY easily for NAirs and dancing blades. He doesn't have too hard a time killing you, since he always has edgeguarding as an easy option. To boot, he just plain outranges, outspeeds and outbaits us with relative ease. But without any ******** gimmicks, he's manageable.

Wizkick is good in this MU, since it's a great punisher for SHed aerials. The main thing to look out for is Marth's massive ability to bait you, punish you and pressure you. Aside from this, he goes down pretty early and, with good DI, you can survive a good while.

 

[DLA]

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10 - 90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

Bahamut: 20 - 80
If Marth spaces himself the right way (which almost every Marth should be able to do constantly), there are no options left. Only our poor OoS. Lack of Gerudo FUs are really frustrating. All we can do is the gimping offstage to his not so grat recovery. Just be aware to not get stage spiked by UpB.

A2ZOMG: 25 - 75
For the most part, you only have to worry about this matchup being really terrible if you're going against a high level Marth user who understands how this matchup works. But aside from that Marth easily has the tools to bait and shut down Ganon's approaches, and can also safely pressure Ganon. He usually kills or edgeguards Ganon a lot more easily than the other way around. A less experienced Marth who makes punishable spacing mistakes can suffer offstage or when being juggled, and CPing him to strange stages can be worthwhile, but the lack of reliable choke combos on him is unfortunate.

Vermanubis: 25 - 75
Comment: Marth would be a lot worse, but like G&W, he just doesn't have anything that specifically cripples Ganon. He has every tool in the world to shut Ganon down, but with enough MU experience and skill it can be pulled off. Marth can pressure Ganon EXTREMELY easily for NAirs and dancing blades. He doesn't have too hard a time killing you, since he always has edgeguarding as an easy option. To boot, he just plain outranges, outspeeds and outbaits us with relative ease. But without any ******** gimmicks, he's manageable.

Wizkick is good in this MU, since it's a great punisher for SHed aerials. The main thing to look out for is Marth's massive ability to bait you, punish you and pressure you. Aside from this, he goes down pretty early and, with good DI, you can survive a good while.

DLA: 30 - 70
You MUST play dynamically in this matchup. If you play this matchup safely, you will get destroyed. The safest option often won't be the best option. You need to be absolutely ruthless--edgeguard as mercilessly as you can, because it's very effective in this matchup if you're good at it. Ftilt also wrecks Marth if his spacing is even slightly off. Wizkick is extremely effective in this matchup too--more so than any other matchup IMO. This is one of my favorite matchups in the game because it's very easy to kill Marth early, but only if you're confident enough to deal with Marth's spacing BS.

 

[Z1GMA]

My favourite thing to do against Marth when edgeguarding him is seen at 4:45 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWq_2eAA4vY

He is EXTREMELY vulnerable from behind during his up+B.

Most characters have a hitbox(es) at least somewhere on their body while up+B'ing,
while Marth is virtually just a sitting duck.

His sword is the only thing we should watch out for.

 

[PK-ow!]

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: We can't really do much to Marth if he knows how to deal with Ganon properly.
He can wall us all days long with SH Fairs.
We are forced to PS -> Uair OoS / iDA.

And, no garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on most stages, doesn't make it any easier.
His Fair out of our Up+B is truly annoying, and even Sweet Spot at times.
Marth's Recovery in mediocre, but we won't get him off stage too often for a gimp, sadly.

Supreme Dirt: 10 - 90
Hard, but not unwinnable. Our OoS options are really the only thing we have going for us in this matchup, and those are pretty terrible except UAir. Make sure to time your Stomps on his recovery so you trade hits. Shield all of dancing blade, you CAN'T shield grab during it afaik. If he does use Dancing blade, be sure to shield grab, as unless he uses the downwards variant we can shieldgrab him pretty much guaranteed.
Watch out for shield breaker, as Marth can get away with it on us.

Bahamut: 20 - 80
If Marth spaces himself the right way (which almost every Marth should be able to do constantly), there are no options left. Only our poor OoS. Lack of Gerudo FUs are really frustrating. All we can do is the gimping offstage to his not so grat recovery. Just be aware to not get stage spiked by UpB.

A2ZOMG: 25 - 75
For the most part, you only have to worry about this matchup being really terrible if you're going against a high level Marth user who understands how this matchup works. But aside from that Marth easily has the tools to bait and shut down Ganon's approaches, and can also safely pressure Ganon. He usually kills or edgeguards Ganon a lot more easily than the other way around. A less experienced Marth who makes punishable spacing mistakes can suffer offstage or when being juggled, and CPing him to strange stages can be worthwhile, but the lack of reliable choke combos on him is unfortunate.

Vermanubis: 25 - 75
Comment: Marth would be a lot worse, but like G&W, he just doesn't have anything that specifically cripples Ganon. He has every tool in the world to shut Ganon down, but with enough MU experience and skill it can be pulled off. Marth can pressure Ganon EXTREMELY easily for NAirs and dancing blades. He doesn't have too hard a time killing you, since he always has edgeguarding as an easy option. To boot, he just plain outranges, outspeeds and outbaits us with relative ease. But without any ******** gimmicks, he's manageable.

Wizkick is good in this MU, since it's a great punisher for SHed aerials. The main thing to look out for is Marth's massive ability to bait you, punish you and pressure you. Aside from this, he goes down pretty early and, with good DI, you can survive a good while.

DLA: 30 - 70
You MUST play dynamically in this matchup. If you play this matchup safely, you will get destroyed. The safest option often won't be the best option. You need to be absolutely ruthless--edgeguard as mercilessly as you can, because it's very effective in this matchup if you're good at it. Ftilt also wrecks Marth if his spacing is even slightly off. Wizkick is extremely effective in this matchup too--more so than any other matchup IMO. This is one of my favorite matchups in the game because it's very easy to kill Marth early, but only if you're confident enough to deal with Marth's spacing BS.

PK-ow!: [none given]
Spam roll. Marth has to do somewhat stupid stuff to punish you out of it, and it may trip up Marth's timing for some of these. Remember that a blocked ground normal or DB is punishment or mixup, except dtilt. If you can make Marth jump for something, you can try to anti-air. If you can make him use DB on roll, you can shield instead. If you make him turn and attack, you can Fsmash. Easy for you, forces him to think. It will clear out a ton of amateur Marths. He switches it up to grabbing and NAirs mostly, but FAirs oppressively. Grabs and NAirs can be fought, though.
Don't get hit by dtilt. Don't run. Don't dodge. Tripping into Fsmash is bad.
Recover low. Make him represent that DAir spike, 'cause it's the only way he's going to make a mistake. Ganoncide at every opportunity before the last stock.
Please abuse Marth's that haven't studied recovery. Amateur Marths don't recover.
Your Dash Attack mostly sucks. Your Wizkick is unsafe on hit early. Aerudo is better than Choke.

0-0. Ganon loses, but Marth is emasculated for having to give his all to overcome the manliness with his tiara.

What do you guys think of Uair and Bair v Marth? Could one of them be saved for a kill in a whiff punishment situation (or surprise when playing around Skull Crush Punch)? They apply so rarely, and Marth is light enough...

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: I really hate fighting a good (good = campy) ROB.
His grab-game is a pain, and if he's good at taking advantage of our RCO-lag,
we'll have a hard time getting back on stage.
Good thing our Gerudo-game ***** him.
Also, Gerudo -> Dsmash is garantueed on some stages.

 

[Bahamut777]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: I really hate fighting a good (good = campy) ROB.
His grab-game is a pain, and if he's good at taking advantage of our RCO-lag,
we'll have a hard time getting back on stage.
Good thing our Gerudo-game ***** him.
Also, Gerudo -> Dsmash is garantueed on some stages.

Bahamut: 30-70
Comment: What's worst about ROB is his spacing set of tools. BAir, NAir and FAir are a pain to deal with and can't be punished on block if spaced right. Also, his camp game is indeed very boring, however, very manageable. Gerudo ****** and his recovery (if recovering low) are what makes thiw MU very manageable while still hard.

 

[smashkng]

WoP with Fair also really hurts Ganon offstage, and he can even start it out of Up b grab.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: I really hate fighting a good (good = campy) ROB.
His grab-game is a pain, and if he's good at taking advantage of our RCO-lag,
we'll have a hard time getting back on stage.
Good thing our Gerudo-game ***** him.
Also, Gerudo -> Dsmash is garantueed on some stages.

Bahamut: 30-70
Comment: What's worst about ROB is his spacing set of tools. BAir, NAir and FAir are a pain to deal with and can't be punished on block if spaced right. Also, his camp game is indeed very boring, however, very manageable. Gerudo ****** and his recovery (if recovering low) are what makes thiw MU very manageable while still hard.

A2ZOMG: 25/75
A low level ROB player can toy with Ganon very easily. His superior tilts and MUCH better grabs not to mention the occasional projectile make this character very frustrating to approach. Think how hard it is for Zangief (or T Hawk) to ever get close to Dhalsim. That's basically the Ganon vs ROB matchup right there. However although it's still a horrible matchup, there are a few things that you are allowed to do once you learn to powershield ROB's projectiles and slower aerials (and please please please learn to angle shield down against the inevitable down-smash). You can definitely take a stock off ROB very quickly if you're ever allowed to get in control (via Flame Choke or setting up a juggle/edgeguard). The main problem is a good ROB will of course make it very hard for you to ever do that.

 

[DLA]

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: I really hate fighting a good (good = campy) ROB.
His grab-game is a pain, and if he's good at taking advantage of our RCO-lag,
we'll have a hard time getting back on stage.
Good thing our Gerudo-game ***** him.
Also, Gerudo -> Dsmash is garantueed on some stages.

Bahamut: 30 - 70
Comment: What's worst about ROB is his spacing set of tools. BAir, NAir and FAir are a pain to deal with and can't be punished on block if spaced right. Also, his camp game is indeed very boring, however, very manageable. Gerudo ****** and his recovery (if recovering low) are what makes thiw MU very manageable while still hard.

A2ZOMG: 25 - 75
A low level ROB player can toy with Ganon very easily. His superior tilts and MUCH better grabs not to mention the occasional projectile make this character very frustrating to approach. Think how hard it is for Zangief (or T Hawk) to ever get close to Dhalsim. That's basically the Ganon vs ROB matchup right there. However although it's still a horrible matchup, there are a few things that you are allowed to do once you learn to powershield ROB's projectiles and slower aerials (and please please please learn to angle shield down against the inevitable down-smash). You can definitely take a stock off ROB very quickly if you're ever allowed to get in control (via Flame Choke or setting up a juggle/edgeguard). The main problem is a good ROB will of course make it very hard for you to ever do that.

DLA: 30 - 70
Not entirely sure what to think about this MU, honestly... it's hard for ROB to camp you if you stay midrange--too close to camp, but out of range of his tilts. If you know ROB's going to Bair or Nair you, don't try to beat it out... you'll lose most of the time. Once you get inside, doing Ganon stuff is pretty easy. If you're getting gimped, try to start your recovery below ROB and try to DJ Uair him once he comes after you... it will often beat him out and you'll get a free recovery. Also, two things I've noticed over the past few days: Nair completely beats out Gyro, so if you think he's gonna try to gimp you with gyro, just throw out an Nair and you'll go through it. Unfortunately this isn't that useful on the ground since it's a lot easier to shield. Also, if the ROB has a gyro in his hand and you think he's going to glide toss it at you and try to Dsmash or something, try to stomp the gyro while it's in the air--you won't get hit by it, and the hitbox will be extended long enough for ROB to slide right into your Dair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Ganon had more ground mobility, honestly this matchup wouldn't be bad for him. The real reason why this matchup is terrible is because ROB's superior ground mobility, pokes, and grabs just overwhelm Ganon when it comes to footsies and also leaves Ganon with no really surprising way of getting into range that ROB can't shut down intelligently. Besides that it's actually pretty easy for Ganon to KO ROB if he can put ROB in a remotely bad position. Between reliable juggles, reasonably easy edgeguards, and ROB's ridiculously awful edge options, there's definitely options for trapping him into kills.

 

[fonzi21]

Sorry i've missed a few MU's been busy. I will post eventually, but it might not be until next week lol.

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: ? - ?
Comment: I haven't faced enough good Lucarios to give my input.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: ? - ?
Comment: I haven't faced enough good Lucarios to give my input.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
This is a very very annoying matchup but Ganon has just enough tools that winning isn't out of the question. Lucario poses fairly little offensive threat, and is honestly an overrated character. His pokes are generally not impressive in terms of speed and hitbox. His best hitboxes are on walls, but you never have to get hit by his walls if you want to play extremely gay. His other best offensive tool is his forward roll, which you can destroy with retreat D-airs while he doesn't really have any truly fast options that can punish that. Oh and his recovery sucks. Edgehog, ledgehop airdodge, and F-smash that ****. Generally speaking never approach him "unnecessarily", bait the forward roll a lot, and condition him into playing into your game, where he's on the defensive, and his wrong moves will be punished if read.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: ? - ?
Comment: I haven't faced enough good Lucarios to give my input.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
This is a very very annoying matchup but Ganon has just enough tools that winning isn't out of the question. Lucario poses fairly little offensive threat, and is honestly an overrated character. His pokes are generally not impressive in terms of speed and hitbox. His best hitboxes are on walls, but you never have to get hit by his walls if you want to play extremely gay. His other best offensive tool is his forward roll, which you can destroy with retreat D-airs while he doesn't really have any truly fast options that can punish that. Oh and his recovery sucks. Edgehog, ledgehop airdodge, and F-smash that ****. Generally speaking never approach him "unnecessarily", bait the forward roll a lot, and condition him into playing into your game, where he's on the defensive, and his wrong moves will be punished if read.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 40-60
Aside from Ganon vs Lucario matches taking seven minutes to finish, we don't do too bad against Lucario. In fact he's personally one of my most comfortable match-ups. Aura spheres are easy to powershield consistently and don't scare Ganons that much unless we're offstage. Lucario's approaches are to be laughed at, it'll almost always be a SH fair or Forward roll. Ganon ***** both of them hard with uair and dair respectively.

Do what A2Z said and just hang on that ledge until he UpB's onto it. Double Jump Airdodge Fsmash his being out of existance. Our Uair also ***** his recovery anyway so offstage is a death trap for him.

 

[Z1GMA]

Guys, don't forget Lucario's Side+b Chaingrab on us.
I believe he can CG + additional attack us for like 60%.

Come on, guys.
Need more inputs before we can move on.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol there's a lot of inaccuracies stated, but obv I can't say much considering these are "personal ganon MU ratios". What I will say is that there's a lot of misinformation.

 

[Z1GMA]

lol there's a lot of inaccuracies stated, but obv I can't say much considering these are "personal ganon MU ratios". What I will say is that there's a lot of misinformation.

Do you mean at Lucario, or everything?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Do you mean at Lucario, or everything?

Lucario's chaingrab can be broken out of by mashing like a normal grab.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not just that:

Lucario recovering high (which happens most of the time if the Lucario isn't horrible at DI) is hard to edgeguard, let alone gimp, lucario's 5th floatiest in the game, has a dair stall, and a large second jump. MK's shuttle loop is one of those few things that intercepts it, what does Ganon have exactly to fear? Tipman isn't like what it was in Melee looool.

second, Lucario's upB lag onstage is far from terrible, most characters can only manage to get a ledgehop aerial on it before lucario can get shield up (there's a landing that's even lagless), what makes you think you can get a 20ish some-odd frame move to hit him? (not counting ledge getup frames either)

We even have a buffered uthrow CG on ganon from like 0-40 (technically 0-30ish + DA/dthrow/bthrow = 40ish %). It only works on like 4 characters, all pretty eh (the best one is like Fox lol), so you guys got "lucky".

Lucario's AS is more of a punish tool, and very good at frame trapping/anti-air, getting/baiting ganon to jump or get juggled isn't that hard. Fair's predictable, but what exactly does ganon have that'll punish it whether retreated or approaching? I can see nair/uair, but retreating dair > all sounds laughable. Lucario's pokes are very safe in this MU, you either get into a game where you try to hit a whiffed move, only to get outrewarded in a game of spacing via ftilt/fsmash, or you have to deal with sitting in shield. Lucario has several kill moves that are plenty fast and can get past shields (FP primed, uair, dair offstage, bair, etc.) + lucario's edgeguard game >>>> ganons loooool, WoP is definitely going to cause ganon some trouble, especially if lucario happens to make him use his upB at higher percent, offstage AS is great since it's a nice mixup after fair. His pokes, while relatively slow, are AMAZING in hitbox, HAVE YOU SEEN HIS JAB HITBOX?

On top of all this, Ganon has NO FOLLOWUPS on Lucario after SideB (unless you get a hard read lol).

I'll confidently mm any of those who made such claims lol, I have had practice in this MU enough (probably not by a top ganon per se, but this guy's low/bottom tiers are all really solid) to confidently say that Lucario probably has 70:30, maybe better on Ganon depending on stage lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucario is only a threat to Ganon if Ganon unnecessarily whiffs something in a bad position, or if Ganon is offstage. He's hard to directly approach since he his walls are REALLY REALLY STUPID and Aura Sphere is kinda hard to punish too (although easy to powershield from neutral stance). Aside from that, this is a matchup where Ganon benefits a lot from basically not running into stuff and trying to exert better stage control. And Ganon can definitely punish on reads in this matchup either with D-air, D-tilt, or Dash Attack (not to mention anti-air U-airs).

I don't get where you think how Lucario recovers easily against Ganon. Ganon is a very good character at edgeguarding and Lucario has to respect that. Ganon's aerials provided you avoid the landlag are pretty quick and have huge range, and all of them are very good at potentially killing or gimping you. Even if you recover high, Ganon's U-air is fast enough to autobait airdodges. Reverse U-air is STILL very good in this game (arguably better since it is growth based in this game).

Furthermore, you obviously never have seen this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE1_EGy9Jg4#t=1m55

I will give that Lucario does have safer pokes; D-tilt and to a lesser extent F-air, and F-tilt is sorta a pseudo poke but on the slow side, but his best hitboxes are on walling tools. He also doesn't really have the mobility nor the speed in most of his attacks to actually threaten Ganondorf into making very many baitable mistakes. Pressuring Ganon's shield with aerials is also unwise against a Ganon that knows how to buffer U-air out of shield. Given that in most situations in this matchup Ganon can usually avoid getting hit if he wants to play gay, the only thing he actually needs to do in this matchup is get stage control and make a good read.

Of course, Ganon gets utterly wrecked if he makes a lot of mistakes in this matchup due to Lucario's combos on him, and working past walls with stupidly low ending lag is...kinda stupid even though they should rarely hit anyone in the first place. That's honestly the main reason why I see Lucario winning.

*looks back at BBrawl 2 where Ganon has invincible wizkick and armored F-tilt plus no RCO lag*

 

[Z1GMA]

Not just that:

Lucario recovering high (which happens most of the time if the Lucario isn't horrible at DI) is hard to edgeguard, let alone gimp, lucario's 5th floatiest in the game, has a dair stall, and a large second jump. MK's shuttle loop is one of those few things that intercepts it, what does Ganon have exactly to fear? Tipman isn't like what it was in Melee looool.

second, Lucario's upB lag onstage is far from terrible, most characters can only manage to get a ledgehop aerial on it before lucario can get shield up (there's a landing that's even lagless), what makes you think you can get a 20ish some-odd frame move to hit him? (not counting ledge getup frames either)

We even have a buffered uthrow CG on ganon from like 0-40 (technically 0-30ish + DA/dthrow/bthrow = 40ish %). It only works on like 4 characters, all pretty eh (the best one is like Fox lol), so you guys got "lucky".

Lucario's AS is more of a punish tool, and very good at frame trapping/anti-air, getting/baiting ganon to jump or get juggled isn't that hard. Fair's predictable, but what exactly does ganon have that'll punish it whether retreated or approaching? I can see nair/uair, but retreating dair > all sounds laughable. Lucario's pokes are very safe in this MU, you either get into a game where you try to hit a whiffed move, only to get outrewarded in a game of spacing via ftilt/fsmash, or you have to deal with sitting in shield. Lucario has several kill moves that are plenty fast and can get past shields (FP primed, uair, dair offstage, bair, etc.) + lucario's edgeguard game >>>> ganons loooool, WoP is definitely going to cause ganon some trouble, especially if lucario happens to make him use his upB at higher percent, offstage AS is great since it's a nice mixup after fair. His pokes, while relatively slow, are AMAZING in hitbox, HAVE YOU SEEN HIS JAB HITBOX?

On top of all this, Ganon has NO FOLLOWUPS on Lucario after SideB (unless you get a hard read lol).

I'll confidently mm any of those who made such claims lol, I have had practice in this MU enough (probably not by a top ganon per se, but this guy's low/bottom tiers are all really solid) to confidently say that Lucario probably has 70:30, maybe better on Ganon depending on stage lol.

You' ve got some incorrect info, too.
Most of what you said, I agree with, though.

Ganon HAS garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on Lucario at Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Brinstar,
and other tilting stages.

Lucario's Edgeguarding doesn't >>>>> Ganon's.
Lucario might be better at gimping, but Ganon is actually good at overall edgeguaring,
in general.

But then again, I've got very little exp Vs Lucario.
That's why I won't sum it up, nor give a ratio.

 

[the king of murder]

Fonz should know everything about this MU since he is maining both Ganondorf and Lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario is only a threat to Ganon if Ganon unnecessarily whiffs something in a bad position, or if Ganon is offstage. He's hard to directly approach since he his walls are REALLY REALLY STUPID and Aura Sphere is kinda hard to punish too (although easy to powershield from neutral stance). Aside from that, this is a matchup where Ganon benefits a lot from basically not running into stuff and trying to exert better stage control. And Ganon can definitely punish on reads in this matchup either with D-air, D-tilt, or Dash Attack (not to mention anti-air U-airs).

I don't get where you think how Lucario recovers easily against Ganon. Ganon is a very good character at edgeguarding and Lucario has to respect that. Ganon's aerials provided you avoid the landlag are pretty quick and have huge range, and all of them are very good at potentially killing or gimping you. Even if you recover high, Ganon's U-air is fast enough to autobait airdodges. Reverse U-air is STILL very good in this game (arguably better since it is growth based in this game).

Furthermore, you obviously never have seen this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE1_EGy9Jg4#t=1m55

I will give that Lucario does have safer pokes; D-tilt and to a lesser extent F-air, and F-tilt is sorta a pseudo poke but on the slow side, but his best hitboxes are on walling tools. He also doesn't really have the mobility nor the speed in most of his attacks to actually threaten Ganondorf into making very many baitable mistakes. Pressuring Ganon's shield with aerials is also unwise against a Ganon that knows how to buffer U-air out of shield. Given that in most situations in this matchup Ganon can usually avoid getting hit if he wants to play gay, the only thing he actually needs to do in this matchup is get stage control and make a good read.

I saw a Lucario with both horrible DI AND failed to use his second jump (he pretty much canceled most of the momentum from the jump into upB, terribad mistake). Plus if he did use his second jump, he'd have opportunities to:
AS the edgehogger
fair
AS reversal -> bair
etc.

I do love those videos though, I was showing someone that infinite jump w/ the koopa shell just the other day lol.
advantages of lucario's pokes:
jab has min. of -8, jab2 -7 (not accounting for aura)
ftilt has a minimum of -6 in advantage (meaning it can only be grabbed or hit on whiff) and is pretty much the equivalent of falco ftilt lol, also take into factor that since it's two hits, it's impossible to powershield (or at least highly unrealistic lol). at higher percents, it gets a -4. This move is also excellent in frame trapping/anti-air.
dtilt has -8, this move is kinda meh though.
mind you, these were all tested on Marth upB oos in debug mode.
@ King of murder: iirc he's also played a couple of lucarios as well (idk, but at the same time there's several in/near his region).

@ Z1GMA: I might be underestimating ganon's edgeguarding a little I'll admit (on the flipside, bthrow to get a character offstage -> uair/bair can get pretty brutal when hitting w/ the front end ), but I still think Lucario offstage overall > than what's being accredited.

Good to know about the slopes with sideB. I'm assuming that gives you jab/dtilt?

sadly, I haven't seen a video yet of a lucario who doesn't play badly or chokes on certain aspects v. a good ganon (even fonz v. DLA had some horrible "fail" moments). The problem being when a Lucario defeats a ganon, nothing impressive, but when Ganon beats X that's E-tier or higher, it's like "OMG record this!" lol

you guys are lucky .

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm assuming that gives you jab/dtilt?

That is correct.
Jab in uphill, and Dtilt in downhill.

Sadly, many Ganons don't pay attention to this.

 

[Dumbfire]

Because the only really noticible stage to do it on is Lylat, and we mostly won't want to go there.

 

[Z1GMA]

Because the only really noticible stage to do it on is Lylat, and we mostly won't want to go there.

No.
The best example is Yoshi's Island.

 

[lordhelmet]

Ganon ***** on Yoshi's Island.

Oh wait

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon ***** on Yoshi's Island.

Oh wait

His odds of winning against Falco, Lucario and Marth are a good amout better at YI.

 

[phi1ny3]

Doesn't Halberd also have sloped parts? If so I'd probably take Lucario there, I can see that stage working pretty well for Ganondorf, since naturally that smaller ceiling works against Lucario's benefit. Unless Ganon also does bad there...