Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[Rizen]

It's weird how bad characters have some of the best moves. Ganon's DA/Uair/Dair, Link's Dair/Zair/Bombs, Zelda's Dtilt... it shows how much stats and mobility make or break a character. All H tiers have slow/bad jabs.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think Ganons Uair or Dair are nowhere near to being to being the best of their category.
Especially those other moves like Links Dair and Zair are bad. Link has the worst zair in the game and he isn't even mobile enough to make use of it.

 

[Heartstring]

The thing is, GW DA clashes with many things on the ground and beats almost all beatable projectiles as well. It's perfect for covering dodges and landings and the hitbox is surprisingly big. And of course it puts the opponent in the perfect angle for followups. It's definitely good, but of course it's nothing compared to Ganons.

This is pretty much how I see it However clanking with things on the ground isnt al that good unless it leaves you at a distance because G&W is relatively iffy at point blanc

It's weird how bad characters have some of the best moves. Ganon's DA/Uair/Dair, Link's Dair/Zair/Bombs, Zelda's Dtilt... it shows how much stats and mobility make or break a character. All H tiers have slow/bad jabs.

Well really, Thats more due to the fact that the rest of their moves are so crap that these mediocre moves seem great. Like Snakes Dtilt is pretty much outclassed by his other tilts. But put that move on a bottom tier and it becomes one of their best moves

And the IASA on diddy's dash attack doesnt mean no lag, but it also doesnt mean the 13 frames which the standard frame data that you found, it makes it more like 5 frames, take into account shieldstun and all and diddy can act before almost every OOS option (faster than all shieldgrabs, etcetc)

 

[Rizen]

*sigh*
10chars

I'm glad Obama won.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm pretty sure you can shieldgrab Diddys DA, it's not that good.

 

[DLA]

O BA MA

Also G&W's dash attack is bad. Why the hell would you want to punish a landing with a weak *** move like dash attack? Punish it with a smash instead. Smh. I can't believe we were comparing G&W's DA with Diddy's DA.

 

[-LzR-]

DA has a surprising reach and is one of GWs fastest moves because smashes are usually slow.

 

[Rizen]

For those who don't play these characters:

Spoiler

How to successfully use:
G&W's DA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmGCOWAUuQM&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s
Ganon's Uair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_heHxPRc0&feature=player_detailpage#t=144s
Link's Zair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdeC5g0RokA&feature=player_detailpage#t=289s
(which is arguably 2nd to Samus', Lucas has the worst)
Dair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME5OhTdtFVE&feature=player_detailpage#t=162s

G&Ws+Ganons=dangerous mix

 

[-LzR-]

Lucas doesn't have a zair. Sure it has an animation but it still doesn't matter. Links zair is definitely the worst zair in the game while Samus probably has the best one.

 

[Rizen]

Lucas doesn't have a zair. Sure it has an animation but it still doesn't matter. Links zair is definitely the worst zair in the game while Samus probably has the best one.

Lucas can press Z in the air to Zair. TL's is worse in every way (1 frame slower, 1 hit, 4% damage, shorter reach) besides tether distance than Link's too. Link's is the only Zair with 2 hits for 10% damage (4+6%).

 

[-LzR-]

Except TL doesn't need to sweetspot his tether in order to get anything out of it. Links zair is ****. It's too slow and the 2 hit part ruins it.

 

[Xubble]

Ladies ladies.

Samus has the best zair, can we at least agree to that?

 

[-LzR-]

Of course. That should be fairly obvious. It's what keeps her from being absolute garbage imo.

 

[Rizen]

No tethers sweetspot, they auto grab the ledge if in range. All Zairs attack only at the tip. Link's is faster to start, longer, 2.5x the damage, 2 hits, better shield pressure and landing cancels.

I bet Ganon/G&W would make a good team for a team with a low tier.

 

[-LzR-]

I still don't see why Links zair doesn't suck compared to other zairs. It's just nothing special.

 

[Xubble]

Zair doesn't have to be fully extended to hit. Just tested it. Link needs his to fully extend for both hits though.

 

[-LzR-]

And if Links isn't fully extended it's basically worthless as there isn't enough stun to do anything and Link needs to be at exactly specific height in order to land the 2nd hit laglessly to get anything out of the move.

 

[Rizen]

Watch until 2:34ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LVeS5pMFPc&feature=player_detailpage#t=138s
Link's Zair has the highest priority of all, 2nd best range, most damage by 2.5 times more than the others, starts fastest tied with Samus' on frame 10 (I think, maybe), is the only 2 hit Zair and better to poke shields. Zairs cancel airdodges and can be done with an item.

Samus' is the best overall but worse for mid-close range.

 

[Xubble]

There's no such thing as priority in the air, first of all. It's merely disjointed. If you really want to test "priority," put it up against Samus's zair and see whose will hit who more.

Hint: Bigger disjoint = bigger win

Second, Samus is never putting herself closer to the opponent than the full range of zair. The fact that it's not very good at mid-close range doesn't really matter: she has better options once they're closer (fair, nair, etc.). I can't vouch for shield poking cause I don't really play Samus.

Yes, Link's has more damage. But that's when both hitboxes hit. And the damage on Samus's zair hardly matters since she's using it to space (incredibly) safely, not tacking on the damage and trying to approach like Link does.

 

[Rizen]

There is priority.
Links Zair stops TL's bombs and most projectiles, Samus' doesn't. There is priority in the air; that's why Link's Dair clanks with Gordos and out prioritizes MK's shuttle loop but G&W's Dair, which is longer, doesn't.

All of Link's game is oriented around spacing.

 

[-LzR-]

All of everyones game is oriented around the spacing. The difference is Link sucks at that as well because he is slow and clumsy.

 

[Rizen]

All of everyones game is oriented around the spacing. The difference is Link sucks at that as well because he is slow and clumsy.

This I agree with . Spacing and juggles/tactics depending on the character.
There's always SSB4 for the Triforce characters.

 

[-LzR-]

I really hope Link isn't toptier. Just think of all the fanboys

 

[Rizen]

I doubt he will be very good but any improvement is welcome :/ . Ganon and Jiggz plummeted in Brawl :[ . Low tiers seriously got a raw deal. I do think they'll do a better job of balancing the next one. There's hope.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lazer have you ever played a decent link lmao

 

[-LzR-]

I have played Izaw. He is the only one though. Link is still **** tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Play against Mr-R's Link and he will **** on you. I've played both of them and Izaw's Link ain't even close bro. If Link doesn't sweetspot zair it often combos into Dash Attack. It's better than TLs zair and not that much worse than Samus'

 

[-LzR-]

So what if I lose someones Link who is 10 times better than me? I also crap on people with my Ganondorf, but he is still utterly useless. Link is an extremely ****ty character, though I believe he is still the best of the triforce tier.

 

[Rizen]

Play against Mr-R's Link and he will **** on you. I've played both of them and Izaw's Link ain't even close bro. If Link doesn't sweetspot zair it often combos into Dash Attack. It's better than TLs zair and not that much worse than Samus'

^This.
Mr.R's really good. The other good European Link who comes to mind is Afrotwist but I think he retired until SSB4. There aren't many active Link veterans :/ .

Link deserves H tier because his terrible stats but he does have tools.

 

[-LzR-]

I have only really played against Afrotwists Link in doubles where he is good, but he has retired singles so I have no idea how good his Link is these days. Shame he doesn't play anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The point is that you don't understand Link and probably shouldn't talk about him. Knowing he's bad and understanding why he is bad and how to actively abuse it are two different things. And just because Ramin is ten times better than us doesn't mean that he's some kind of wizard. He's still subject to Link's limitations and tools and as long as he plays Link he's not able to go beyond the character's capabilities because that's simply not possible.

 

[Heartstring]

I don't even know whats going on anymore

Link Z-air is decent, Not nearly as good as samus's but is a good spacing tool when they learn how to use it properly.
Tlinks is also good, but its difficult to compare it to the other two's Zairs because its ideally used in a totally different fashion

Stating that a move is better than others on the data alone is poor, the effectiveness of a move is determined by the way it meshes with the character. Banana's would be much less effective on diddy kong if his wavedash was huge/nonexistent.

Moves dont have a set 'priority' value. The mechanic works in a completely different way.

 

[Xubble]

Diddy has a wavedash? What kind of games are you playing in England? XD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm sure he's talking about glidetoss.

 

[Rizen]

'Glade we got all that sorted out.

...Anyway, the Wii U comes out in 11 days. Anyone getting one for launch?

Edit:
Remember this?
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14942329&postcount=7698

Links are crazy, hardworking. Zeldas depressed, more actual girl players, MLP. G&Ws combative, self loathing. Wolfs competitive. Lucarios furries. Peachs gay (not being mean they have a poll above their social). Sonics, good natured. Pits salty. PTs mellow, good natured. Yoshis nice. Ganons...

Now you see what I meant, lol. G&Ws+Ganons are a volatile mix.

 

[Heartstring]

Diddy has a wavedash? What kind of games are you playing in England? XD

I meant glide toss..i always make that stupid mistake, there not even the same maneuver brain, wut u doin ><

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think the Ganons have a stereotype, to be honest lol.

Bloody and I have long hair. We're 2/3 of the remaining Ganon mains, so I guess that makes long hair our stereotype. DLA had some glorious locks going, too, before he defiled himself with baldness.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I used to have some solid locks back in the day too.

 

[Bloodynite]

I don't think the Ganons have a stereotype, to be honest lol.

Bloody and I have long hair. We're 2/3 of the remaining Ganon mains, so I guess that makes long hair our stereotype. DLA had some glorious locks going, too, before he defiled himself with baldness.

Other than having long hair, I thought our stereotype was being loud but I think that's just me.

Although I have learned that ganon mains always stick out since i remember when people would approach me without having seen me play and ask if i main ganon so idk man.

 

[Heartstring]

I don't think the Ganons have a stereotype, to be honest lol.

Bloody and I have long hair. We're 2/3 of the remaining Ganon mains, so I guess that makes long hair our stereotype. DLA had some glorious locks going, too, before he defiled himself with baldness.

I guess I don't really count (even though I seem to play ganon more than anyone else these days) because My hair is almost non-existent at the moment. sigh, the price I had to pay for a Dudley cosplay...