Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[Radical Dreamer]

Capcom accounts for like half of the competitive fighting games that people care about/take seriously.

 

[Yuna]

Capcom accounts for like half of the competitive fighting games that people care about/take seriously.

SF2, SSF2T, 3S (and now SF4), Marvel vs. Capcom 2, SNK vs. Capcom 2 vs. the Soul Calibur series, the Tekken series, the Virtua Fighter series, the Guilty Gear series, the King of Fighter series, the Melty Blood series.

If we go by single Capcom games vs. entire series, Capcom does not hold half of the games people "take seriously", but they hold quite a few. If we go by single games, Capcom's games are dwarfed in numbers. And, hey, 3S is, like, quite possibly more balanced than Brawl.

 

[SuperPJ64]

I thought Melee has better balance. To me Pit, Ike, and Snake are overpowered. I can't do anything as Link against Pit because he reflects everything back. That's why I joined these forums. To get better at Brawl(which I currently hate).

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I thought Melee has better balance. To me Pit, Ike, and Snake are overpowered. I can't do anything as Link against Pit because he reflects everything back. That's why I joined these forums. To get better at Brawl(which I currently hate).

go here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187670

+ Ike is one of links easier match ups, snake is not very hard(pretty equal) and pit is not that hard, link has some anti-pit things(dont spam arrows though, rang, zair and bombs is what should be used)

 

[Redthorn21]

go here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187670

+ Ike is one of links easier match ups, snake is not very hard(pretty equal) and pit is not that hard, link has some anti-pit things(dont spam arrows though, rang, zair and bombs is what should be used)

Link is an underated player , he will most likely rise in the tier rankings. I find he is one of my best characters. But more on topic as it stands right now Melee is more balanced then brawl thanks to the broken MK, Teather recoveries ruined characters like Olmar and Ivy, and plus if items are used everybody is just waiting to get the smash ball...

 

[Fletch]

I thought Melee has better balance. To me Pit, Ike, and Snake are overpowered. I can't do anything as Link against Pit because he reflects everything back. That's why I joined these forums. To get better at Brawl(which I currently hate).

Well that really only helps when just one of the characters you mentioned is actually good...

 

[GofG]

It's funny because nearly all of the regional forums have reverted completely back to Melee. I think that's the true indicator of which is more balanced. SE doesn't even play brawl anymore.

 

[Yuna]

It's funny because nearly all of the regional forums have reverted completely back to Melee. I think that's the true indicator of which is more balanced. SE doesn't even play brawl anymore.

Most European Melee communities were smart enough never to abandon Melee and embracing Brawl in the first place. We're just awesome, I guess.

 

[RDK]

Capcom accounts for like half of the competitive fighting games that people care about/take seriously.

Sorry, but you're still an idiot if you think Melee and Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's actually played competitively. Just look at most of the SF's, Soul Calibur (maybe not so much), Melty Blood, KoF, and the entire GG series, which is incredibly balanced.

Uh, and BTW, Ryu was mid tier in 3S (the one Chun Li was actually good in) and CvS2, as well as utterly horrible in MvC2. At least in 4 he didn't start out higher; although it looks like he may advance sometime in the near future.

A SF game where Ryu and Ken aren't good? Ahh!

 

[Oracle]

Brawl is not balanced at all. People have considered banning a character. He has no bad matchups at all.

The low tiers, even when mained by really good people, will always fail against the high tiers.

However, melee really isn't all that balanced. Just a lot more than brawl.

 

[pure_awesome]

Sorry, but you're still an idiot if you think Melee and Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's actually played competitively. Just look at most of the SF's, Soul Calibur (maybe not so much), Melty Blood, KoF, and the entire GG series, which is incredibly balanced.

SF2 was so unbalanced, it had to ban Akuma just to keep it within reason, and even within that game there's still Old Sagat, who is considered to be better than the rest of the unbanned cast and supposedly soft-banned in Japan.

So yes, I'd say that both Melee and Brawl are more balanced than SF2. If the Fox boards think their fight with Pikachu is bad, they should try E. Honda vers Akuma. It's gotta be like a 99.99-0.01 matchup.

Uh, and BTW, Ryu was mid tier in 3S (the one Chun Li was actually good in) and CvS2, as well as utterly horrible in MvC2.

Yeah... that's what we said.

...anyway.

At least in 4 he didn't start out higher; although it looks like he may advance sometime in the near future.

Well... he started out as the fourth or fifth best character in the game, depending on who you ask. Hell, some people say that he's third best, in AA tier along with Sagat. So I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't start out higher", he's already pretty badass.

The low tiers, even when mained by really good people, will always fail against the high tiers.

Bwett and Malcom disagree.

However, melee really isn't all that balanced. Just a lot more than brawl.

It sure seems like Melee was more balanced, but I definitely think it's too early in Brawl's life to make the call. Regardless, I think we can all agree that Smash64 is by far the most balanced of the three.

God Tier:
Isai

Who Cares Tier:
Everything else to do with the game.

Bottom Tier:
Link's Recovery

 

[Fletch]

Most European Melee communities were smart enough never to abandon Melee and embracing Brawl in the first place. We're just awesome, I guess.

To be fair, you guys saw the backlash it caused in the States first, but I envy your position.

 

[Yuna]

Uh, and BTW, Ryu was mid tier in 3S (the one Chun Li was actually good in) and CvS2, as well as utterly horrible in MvC2. At least in 4 he didn't start out higher; although it looks like he may advance sometime in the near future.

A SF game where Ryu and Ken aren't good? Ahh!

Wait, what did this have to do with anything? Back fierce to crouching forward to Houyoku Sen on you!

SF2 was so unbalanced, it had to ban Akuma just to keep it within reason, and even within that game there's still Old Sagat, who is considered to be better than the rest of the unbanned cast and supposedly soft-banned in Japan.

That was Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, one game out of all of the SF games. And one or two characters do not overwhelmingly imbalance a game, not if the remaining characters are pretty balanced in-between. It is even debatable whether or not Old Sagat is actually the best character with Akuma banned!

Japan is just weird!

Akuma broke the game because he was an imbalanced boss character (boss characters are supposed to be broken). The rest of the characters? Not so horribly imbalanced.

Well... he started out as the fourth or fifth best character in the game, depending on who you ask. Hell, some people say that he's third best, in AA tier along with Sagat. So I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't start out higher", he's already pretty badass.

To be fair, you guys saw the backlash it caused in the States first, but I envy your position.

Why do you think no Europeans imported and/or pirated the game before the PAL version was released? Most respectable Melee players who place well in tournaments had played Brawl within the first week of its released. Within one month of it being released, I had personally hosted two tournaments in it (albeit at anime convetions, with mostly scrubby players) with copies I'd personally burned on a friend's DVD burner (albeit with my friend's DL DVDs, but I was there when he purchased them!).

We played it, we examined it, we laughed at it. And we never made the switch. Not because of the backlash in America but because we were smart enough to realize what a ****ty game it is .

 

[RDK]

SF2 was so unbalanced, it had to ban Akuma just to keep it within reason, and even within that game there's still Old Sagat, who is considered to be better than the rest of the unbanned cast and supposedly soft-banned in Japan.

We're talking about one of the handful of SF games I mentioned (I said entire series), and even then Akuma is just one character. Like Yuna said, I think it's debatable whether or not Sagat is that good without Akuma in the game.

So yes, I'd say that both Melee and Brawl are more balanced than SF2. If the Fox boards think their fight with Pikachu is bad, they should try E. Honda vers Akuma. It's gotta be like a 99.99-0.01 matchup.

Uh, Akuma is soft-banned in most regions, so why is that even entering the discussion? Like I said, without Akuma, it's relatively balanced. And again, SF2T isn't the only Capcom game I mentioned.

Well... he started out as the fourth or fifth best character in the game, depending on who you ask. Hell, some people say that he's third best, in AA tier along with Sagat. So I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't start out higher", he's already pretty badass.

Compared to Zangief? Not so much.

 

[pure_awesome]

We're talking about one of the handful of SF games I mentioned (I said entire series)

You also said that "you're still an idiot if you think Melee and Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's actually played competitively". So yeah, one game.

As for whether or not O. Sagat is overpowered... I mean, he is. There's no way around it. His fireballs (insanely fast and with little recovery time) alone give top players conniptions, and his ridiculous damage, ridiculous speed, one-hit uppercut deals with anyone in close, along with aerial approaches. The only characters than come close to his level are Boxer and Sim, but they at least have flaws. Half the cast can barely touch O.Sagat. Not figuratively, I mean they literally can't hit him because they can't get past the iron man defense.

Uh, Akuma is soft-banned in most regions, so why is that even entering the discussion? Like I said, without Akuma, it's relatively balanced. And again, SF2T isn't the only Capcom game I mentioned.

Actually, Akuma is hard banned in most regions. But he's still part of the game. He still has to be considered when you're talking about whether or not the game is balanced. It's how he got banned in the first place, because he unbalanced the game.

Anyway, the game without Akuma is most certainly not balanced. Match-ups like Honda vers anyone with a fireball (save for Sim) or Cammy vers Claw are just stupidly one-sided and make you wonder if the game was even play-tested for high-level use at all.

Compared to Zangief? Not so much.

Anyone compared to Zangief is bad.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

It's obvious from your posts that you're not actually familiar with the balance of Capcom games. Even the people who play them competitively know how unbalanced they are. They just don't care. Game by game, statistically and theoretically, each one is comparable to at least Melee in terms of imbalance. Starting with Third Strike, all tournaments ban one character entirely. Melee tournaments have never banned a character. And then even with this ban, Third Strike tournaments have Brawl-style tournament results:

Evo2k8 Third Strike Top 8:

1st - Nuki (Chun-Li)
2nd - Justin Wong (Chun-Li)
3rd - Amir (Chun-Li)
4th - Tokido (Chun-Li)
5th - Fubarduck (Chun-Li)
5th - JR Rodriguez (Akuma)
7th - Mike Watson (Ken)
7th - Ryan Hart (ken/Yun)

Evo2K7 was slightly better:

1st - Nuki (Chun-Li)
2nd - Tokido (Chun-Li/Urien)
3rd - Alex Valle (Ken/Ryu)
4th - Mike Wakefield (Makoto)
5th - Fubarduck (Chun-Li)
5th - AznHitler (Ken/Necro)
7th - Ricky Ortiz (Chun-Li/Ken)
7th - Ed Ma (Ken)

But the trend is still there, and it's no more varied than typical Melee top 8 results:

Pound 3 Top 8:

1st - Mango (Puff)
2nd - M2K (Marth/Fox)
3rd - PC Chris (Fox)
4th - Cort (Peach)
5th - Chu (Ice Climbers)
5th - Vidjo (Peach)
7th - Azen (Marth)
7th - Darkrain (Captain Falcon)

Third Strike tournaments need to ban Gill, and then even then major tournaments are hardly ever won by a character other than Chun Li, Ken or Yun. Occasionally you see some great players placing well with mid or upper mid tier characters like Urien or Akuma, but by and large they don't win. Some mid and upper mid tier characters like Yang are basically nonexistent at high level play. You hardly ever see the lowest tier characters placing top 8, much less winning, because they just can't do it, because when the good Third Strike players want to win, they know they have to play Yun, Chun, Ken or maybe Makoto. If Gill were tournament legal, you would hardly have tournaments won by anyone other than him. But just the fact that a character needs to be banned, and even then the game still shows itself to be highly unbalanced, makes it more unbalanced than at least Melee, and maybe even Brawl.

As for Super Turbo, well, why take my word for it when I can just quote one of the top Super Turbo players in the United States?

"Most characters in [Super Turbo] cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is “broken” in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since."

Not even Brawl has anything this bad, since tournaments don't even boil down to Metaknight vs. Metaknight only. Melee has nothing even close to this.

"Even if [Old Sagat] is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable."

If CvS2 needs to be justified, I'll do it later. If Marvel needs to be justified, you're a troll.

 

[Yuna]

It's obvious from your posts that you're not actually familiar with the balance of Capcom games. Even the people who play them competitively know how unbalanced they are. They just don't care. Game by game, statistically and theoretically, each one is comparable to at least Melee in terms of imbalance. Starting with Third Strike, all tournaments ban one character entirely. Melee tournaments have never banned a character. And then even with this ban, Third Strike tournaments have Brawl-style tournament results:

*insert tournament results here*

I'm sorry, isn't this the same BS arguments the pro-ban people give us as "evidence" for how Meta Knight is the only viable character, that he over-centralizes the game, that he is "too good" and has to go?

You pulled out the results of two 3S tournaments (and 3S is still one game out of many) where Chun-Li (the character with the best match-ups in the entire game) did very well (hey, MK at HOBO11!) and then compared that to a tournament where Mango created one of the biggest upsets in the late history of Smash by winning a major tournament as Jigglypuff.

Yes, and? I can pull out one jillion tournaments where Top Tier characters took the Top 10 of Melee tournaments and Brawl tournaments. You can't just randomly pull out the results of two single tournaments vs. one single tournament and say "This proves my case!".

Also, I've never argued that 3S is more balanced than Melee. Please quote me where I did. Theoretically, 3S is Melee-level-ish in terms of match-ups. Yun is Fox, considered the best character in the game, yet Chun-Li (Marth) wins more because she just has better match-ups than him in general.

 

[Zankoku]

Pulling EVO finals results helps eliminate variance. Mango pulling an amazing upset by winning a major smash tournament with Jiggs is still winning a major smash tournament.

 

[pure_awesome]

I'm like 90% sure that his point on the Third Strike bit was that it's just as unbalanced as Melee, on top of the fact that 3S had to ban Gill.

 

[kupo15]

Brawl is not more balanced than melee. This is quite obvious in brawl+ where you add back global "smash mechanics" that were taken out without altering individual characters and such to find that brawl+ is actually a lot more balanced than brawl. (s canceling and melee air dodge are not considered "smash mechanics"

just saying...

 

[Zankoku]

I don't quite understand what you're implying, kupo15.

 

[Yuna]

Pulling EVO finals results helps eliminate variance. Mango pulling an amazing upset by winning a major smash tournament with Jiggs is still winning a major smash tournament.

It's, however, a rarity. Especially Jiggs vs. Marth at the highest level. It doesn't prove a pattern, it proves an exception to the rule.

I'm like 90% sure that his point on the Third Strike bit was that it's just as unbalanced as Melee, on top[b/] of the fact that 3S had to ban Gill.

Also, he's just going through Capcom games.

Gill is a boss character. Gill isn't even available in the arcade version (I think... is there some kind of code to unlock him?). Boss characters are usually auto-banned in games where there's an arcade version and they weren't in it so that you can have tournaments both on consoles and the arcade and so that people won't be forced to buy a specific version of the game to get all characters (which also eliminates console-specific characters).

Justice and Cliff are banned in the GGXX-series! Noes!

Brawl is not more balanced than melee. This is quite obvious in brawl+ where you add back global "smash mechanics" that were taken out without altering individual characters and such to find that brawl+ is actually a lot more balanced than brawl. (s canceling and melee air dodge are not considered "smash mechanics"

just saying...

This does not necessarily mean that Brawl is more imbalanced than Melee (which it is). It just means that Brawl+ is more balanced than Brawl.

 

[pure_awesome]

Gill is a boss character. Gill isn't even available in the arcade version (I think... is there some kind of code to unlock him?). Boss characters are usually auto-banned in games where there's an arcade version and they weren't in it so that you can have tournaments both on consoles and the arcade and so that people won't be forced to buy a specific version of the game to get all characters (which also eliminates console-specific characters).

Oh, for sure. But the reasoning behind why he's banned shouldn't matter. He's still a part of the game, and we need to consider him when we talk about game balance.

EDIT: Also, as far as I know, Gill is not available in the arcade version.

This does not automatically mean that Brawl is more imbalanced than Melee... It just means that Brawl+ is more balanced than Brawl.

This.

Kupo, how do we even know Brawl+ is more balanced? It's not like we have any high level players trying to break it. I don't see how you can make this claim when Brawl+ isn't even finished yet. The finished product isn't even available, and we're already saying it's amazingly balanced? Come on.

 

[kupo15]

I don't quite understand what you're implying, kupo15.

Well the thread is whether or not brawl is more balanced than melee. I'm saying its not. Reason being is that the "smash mechanics" (hitstun, l canceling, shield stun (not out yet), lagless ledges, no auto sweet spot ledges etc) that both melee and 64 possessed are not found in brawl. When you compare brawl+ to brawl, brawl+ is a much more balanced game than brawl only because we are adding back the "smash mechanics" that are GLOBAL which in turn make brawl+ more balanced.

So with this insight, brawl is NOT more balanced than melee for this reason.

Just answering the threads question

 

[Yuna]

Oh, for sure. But the reasoning behind why he's banned shouldn't matter. He's still a part of the game, and we need to consider him when we talk about game balance.

The fact that Gill is banned has no bearing on whether or not 3S is more of less imbalanced had he never existed unless he imbalances the game with his presence. Does he (I don't know, because I've never been to a tournament where Gill is allowed, for obvious reasons)?

Well the thread is whether or not brawl is more balanced than melee. I'm saying its not. Reason being is that the "smash mechanics" (hitstun, l canceling, shield stun (not out yet), lagless ledges, no auto sweet spot ledges etc) that both melee and 64 possessed are not found in brawl.

This does not automatically mean Brawl is less balanced than Melee.

When you compare brawl+ to brawl, brawl+ is a much more balanced game than brawl only because we are adding back the "smash mechanics" that are GLOBAL which in turn make brawl+ more balanced.

This does not automatically mean Brawl is less balanced than Melee. Ouh, deja vu!

What if Brawl is just tons more balanced than Melee even without these Melee "Smash mechanics"? If you add them, Brawl+ just becomes more balanced than Base Brawl. It does not prove that Base Brawl is more or less balanced than Melee.

We have to compare Brawl with Melee, not Brawl with Brawl+.

Yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate because I believe in rooting out the bad arguments coming from my own side before someone else gets to it and I look like a fool for being the "wrong" side. (Translation: "Your crappily constructed arguments shall not be allowed to taint my brilliantly constructed ones!")

 

[kupo15]

Reading your post yuna, just wanted to post this since I missed my opportunity to add it in my last post

Kupo, how do we even know Brawl+ is more balanced? It's not like we have any high level players trying to break it. I don't see how you can make this claim when Brawl+ isn't even finished yet. The finished product isn't even available, and we're already saying it's amazingly balanced? Come on.

You are correct. Atm we don't have the the highest skilled players to play it yet but you don't need to be a pro to know how to break the game. We have been doing extensive testing on trying to purposely break brawl+ with the codes we are adding and so far nothing really. I'm just trying to add perspective and I really feel that these global "smash mechanics" that are being added back in create balance. No longer do you have characters like MK who are the only ones who can combo and edge guard correctly.. No longer do you have just the fast characters more viable because now the slower characters have a better chance to compete with l canceling..

 

[Zankoku]

Characters being banned due to being console-exclusive has nothing to do with "balance." Don't even make those silly arguments. I don't remember the reasoning for Vader's ban in SC4 being "he's totally broken guys! You don't even know! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW--"

 

[kupo15]

This does not automatically mean Brawl is less balanced than Melee. Ouh, deja vu!

I realize that. I was using a more balanced variation of the same game as a perspective.

What if Brawl is just tons more balanced than Melee even without these Melee "Smash mechanics"? If you add them, Brawl+ just becomes more balanced than Base Brawl. It does not prove that Base Brawl is more or less balanced than Melee.

These are not melee mechanics. They are smash mechanics because they were present in 64. I am not considering melee air dodge as a "smash mechanic".

be back later tonight

 

[pure_awesome]

These are not melee mechanics. They are smash mechanics because they were present in 64

And they aren't in Brawl. So they aren't global. Brawl is no less a Smash game than the other two just because some people don't like it. You can call them "Melee/64" mechanics, but directional airdodge is no more a smash mechanic than momentum air dodge anymore.

The ultimate fact remains that whether or not you and the rest of the hackers think that your unfinished product will ultimately be more balanced than the original game is completely irrelevant to whether or not the original game is more balanced than a different game.


Ankoku, didn't everyone back-track on the Vader/Yoda ban since they're no longer console-exclusive?
I mean, that would just further your point, but I seems to me like you're talking like it's said and done. I'm just confused.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I'm sorry, isn't this the same BS arguments the pro-ban people give us as "evidence" for how Meta Knight is the only viable character, that he over-centralizes the game, that he is "too good" and has to go?

You pulled out the results of two 3S tournaments (and 3S is still one game out of many) where Chun-Li (the character with the best match-ups in the entire game) did very well (hey, MK at HOBO11!) and then compared that to a tournament where Mango created one of the biggest upsets in the late history of Smash by winning a major tournament as Jigglypuff.

Yes, and? I can pull out one jillion tournaments where Top Tier characters took the Top 10 of Melee tournaments and Brawl tournaments. You can't just randomly pull out the results of two single tournaments vs. one single tournament and say "This proves my case!".

Also, I've never argued that 3S is more balanced than Melee. Please quote me where I did. Theoretically, 3S is Melee-level-ish in terms of match-ups. Yun is Fox, considered the best character in the game, yet Chun-Li (Marth) wins more because she just has better match-ups than him in general.

There are three critical misunderstandings on your part here:

1. I am not arguing in favor of any bans. Only proving that 3S's balance is at least comparable to to Melee's, if not worse.

2. The Pound 3 results were meant to illustrate the comparable, if not superior, variety you find among the top 8, not highlight Jigglypuff winning.

3. I am addressing RDK, not you.

That said, if you want me to pull out more 3S tournament results, I can:

Evo 2K6

1st - Nitto (Yun)
2nd - Issei (Yun)
3rd - Ohnuki (Chun-Li)
4th - Mester (Yun)
5th - Tokido (Chun-Li, Urien) / Pyrolee (Yun)
7th - Amir (Chun-Li) / Alex Valle (Ken)

Evo 2K5

1st - Ohnuki (Chun-Li)
2nd - Justin Wong (Chun-Li)
3rd - Nitto (Yun)
4th - Mester (Ken)
5th - Ricky O. (Chun-Li) / Kokujin (Dudley)
7th - RF (Chun-Li) / MOV (Chun-Li)

Evo 2K4

1st: KO (Yun)
2nd: Daigo Umehara (Ken)
3rd: Justin Wong (Chun)
4th: Raoh (Chun)
5th: KSK (Alex), Kokujin (Dudley)
7th: Hsien Chang (Ken), Mike Watson (Yun)

Evo 2K3

1st: KO (Yun)
2nd: Daigo (Ken)
3rd: KSK (Alex)
4th: Ino (Yun/Makoto)
5th: Hsien Chang (Ken)
5th: Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
7th: Nuki (Chun)
7th: Mopreme (Chun/Ken)

SBO 2008

1st
Kuroda (Gouki)
Ino (Makoto)
MOV (Chun Li)

2nd
Saru (Yun)
Chinta (Ken)
K (Chun Li)

3rd
Boss (Makoto)
Rikimaru (Chun Li)
Ochibi (Yun)
//
YukiOtoko (Gouki)
Matsuda (Yun)
Umezono (Chun Li)

Seriously, I would find more if they were more easily accessible. Not only will most of them look like this, but you probably won't even find the kind of character upsets as in the pound 3 results.

(and 3S is still one game out of many)

3S, Super Turbo, CvS2 and Marvel. That only leaves Street Fighter 4 and Alpha 3, the former of which is still very new (not to mention Evo will use the console version which will have like 8 more characters), and the latter of which I honestly don't actually know. Anything else is inconsequential. Yeah, the original Street Fighter is pretty balanced since the only characters are Ken and Ryu.

 

[Yuna]

Ankoku, didn't everyone back-track on the Vader/Yoda ban since they're no longer console-exclusive?
I mean, that would just further your point, but I seems to me like you're talking like it's said and done. I'm just confused.

I am unsure of whether or not they are unbanned. I think they're still banned (for stupid reasons).

There are three critical misunderstandings on your part here:

No, we have a user jumping to conclusions.

I didn't say "you pro-ban people", I said "the pro-ban people". I was mocking the logic in your arguments by pointing out how invalid it is and emphasizing it by linking them to the pro-ban people.

2. The Pound 3 results were meant to illustrate the comparable, if not superior, variety you find among the top 8, not highlight Jigglypuff winning.

What comparable? "Oh, in one out of one jillion major Melee tournaments, Jiggz won one!"? Clearly this proves Melee is tons more balanced than 3S if we compare this to two EVO results!

3. I am addressing RDK, not you.

Doesn't mean I can't counter-argue you.

Seriously, I would find more if they were more easily accessible. Not only will most of them look like this, but you probably won't even find the kind of character upsets as in the pound 3 results.

Congratulations, you've proven that the same people playing as the same characters keep placing high! No one's arguing that Chun-Li isn't Top Tier and taking home the most tournaments. But this is as valid as saying that Marth is the only character capable of winning major Melee tournaments since he took home the vast majority of the major Melee tournaments.

I am not arguing that you are wrong. My insight into 3S is only superficial. I'm arguing that your reasoning and arguments are invalid. Find better ones.

Even if you are right, you will not "win" arguments or convince people if you're using faulty arguments. Valid arguments would be, say match-up charts outlining just how much the Top Tiers outclass the lower tiers and how wide the gaps between the tiers and between the characters are.

3S, Super Turbo, CvS2 and Marvel. That only leaves Street Fighter 4 and Alpha 3

Umm... Capcom vs. SNK 1+2, Street Fighter 2, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Street Fighter III 1 + 2, Alpha 1+2. I mean, we're comparing them to both past and present Smash games, it is only fair we compare them to "past and present" (as in "every game in each series") game as well.

Yeah, the original Street Fighter is pretty balanced since the only characters are Ken and Ryu.

And they are identical, IIRC.

 

[Brinzy]

I haven't opened SC4; do horizontal attacks hit Yoda?

 

[rehab]

Is this one of those arguments where everybody agrees but some people just take offense with parts of the other person's phrasing and make an unduly large deal of it? Melee's not balanced, Brawl's not balanced, fighting games aren't balanced, games aren't balanced, uhhhhhh

 

[Radical Dreamer]

What comparable? "Oh, in one out of one jillion major Melee tournaments, Jiggz won one!"? Clearly this proves Melee is tons more balanced than 3S if we compare this to two EVO results!

...

...

Are you kidding me or are you just trying to be an ******* now?

Did you read? Let me quote:

2. The Pound 3 results were meant to illustrate the comparable, if not superior, variety you find among the top 8, not highlight Jigglypuff winning.

I was simply comparing the character variety among Top 8 finishers of the two games. Compare these top results side by side, and the character variety is roughly the same. It has mostly top tiers, with a few mid and upper mid tiers placing. If I pull out more top 8 results from both games this will remain the case.

Umm... Capcom vs. SNK 1+2, Street Fighter 2, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Street Fighter III 1 + 2, Alpha 1+2. I mean, we're comparing them to both past and present Smash games, it is only fair we compare them to "past and present" (as in "every game in each series") game as well.

For the purpose of my argument I wasn't taking SSB64 into account since I don't consider it contemporary. The only games out of the ones you listed that I consider contemporary are CvS2 and Super Turbo. Maybe, I guess, my argument would be stronger if I actually knew the balance/imbalance of these games. I don't though, because, much like pretty much everyone else, I only follow the Capcom games that people actually care about (i.e. the only ones that actually have major tournaments), or at least the ones people have cared about for the past half decade. And it's undoubtedly true that these games -- Third Strike, Super Turbo, CvS2, and Marvel -- are at least as unbalanced as Melee. In the case of the last of those four games, no one with any sense will argue otherwise.

Granted, CvS2 might be dropped soon; I'm being told that SF4 is better balanced than its predecessors; and Super Turbo HD Remix is intended to be better balanced than the Super Turbo people have been playing for the past 15 years as part of its design.

And they are identical, IIRC.

Yes, they are. It was kind of a joke.

Is this one of those arguments where everybody agrees but some people just take offense with parts of the other person's phrasing and make an unduly large deal of it? Melee's not balanced, Brawl's not balanced, fighting games aren't balanced, games aren't balanced, uhhhhhh

Yes.

 

[pure_awesome]

Don't forget Super Gem Fighter!

That game's competitive scene was all up ons.

 

[RDK]

...I was simply comparing the character variety among Top 8 finishers of the two games. Compare these top results side by side, and the character variety is roughly the same. It has mostly top tiers, with a few mid and upper mid tiers placing. If I pull out more top 8 results from both games this will remain the case.

I don't have time to go back and reply to all your ridiculous counter arguments and tournament quote-mining, so I'll just address this and leave it at that since Yuna seemed to cover pretty much everything here.

Don't be ridiculous. Taking a handful EVO results and comparing them to one Pound 3 to outline Jigglypuff taking the cake is borderline idiotic. Way to level the playing field and actually compare them objectively! But I guess that's kind of hard when your data set is three tournaments.

2. The Pound 3 results were meant to illustrate the comparable, if not superior, variety you find among the top 8, not highlight Jigglypuff winning.

What? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jigglypuff winning have anything to do with greater variety?

I haven't opened SC4; do horizontal attacks hit Yoda?

HA.

And Yoda and Vader are apparently still banned, albeit for stupid reasons seeing as how they're not console-exclusive. Woot woot for SRK.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=167993

 

[Brinzy]

I hear they aren't that good anyway, but what do I know?

 

[RDK]

I hear they aren't that good anyway, but what do I know?

They're not. In fact, both of them are utterly terrible, including the Apprentice (who I still manage to beat my friends with on a consistent basis; pisses them the hell off). They're considering a ban because it costs a whopping $5 to pay for the DLC in order to have both characters on either versions of the game, and the faceless masses over at SRK are whining like the ***gots they are. But that's just SRK.

And just a thought; SCIV is probably not the best game to use as an example for game balance.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I don't have time to go back and reply to all your ridiculous counter arguments and tournament quote-mining, so I'll just address this and leave it at that since Yuna seemed to cover pretty much everything here.

Johns. You have the time. You just don't know any better.

Don't be ridiculous. Taking a handful EVO results and comparing them to one Pound 3 to outline Jigglypuff taking the cake is borderline idiotic. Way to level the playing field and actually compare them objectively! But I guess that's kind of hard when your data set is three tournaments.

Don't be ridiculous. You know I could take not only every Evo 3S result, but just about all major 3S tournament results in the past few years and it would reflect pretty much the same trend of Yuns, Chuns, and Kens dominating the top 8 with a little bit of Makoto and occasionally some other character. Smash results would be more or less the same. Mostly Marth and Space Animals (but not even Sheik) with also some Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Samus and Peach.

What? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jigglypuff winning have anything to do with greater variety?

Yeah, it's part of it. But it's not the only part of it as you and Yuna seem to believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't having four top tiers and four non top tiers have something to do with character variety? Thought so.

Good job completely disregarding high level testimony, years of tournament results and the other Capcom games in question (Super Turbo, CvS2, and Marvel, just in case you forgot); and leaving the counter-arguing to a guy who admits that his understanding of the games in question is superficial.

 

[pure_awesome]

Don't be ridiculous. Taking a handful EVO results and comparing them to one Pound 3 to outline Jigglypuff taking the cake is borderline idiotic. Way to level the playing field and actually compare them objectively! But I guess that's kind of hard when your data set is three tournaments.

Not only did he quote more tournaments when he was asked, but anyone familiar with the competitive scene of either game can tell you that this is the case. Mostly top tiers, with some high/uppermid tiers placing.



Anyway,

Vader and Yoda are both mid tier at best. Yoda is supposedly a valid counterpick for one of the high tiers, but that's speculation. So far, I've seen two reasons for them to be banned:

1. People have to pay 5$ for the one they don't have, so they still kind of console-exclusive, since some people don't want to shell out the whopping sum of five dollars, and still others don't have the means to do so.

2. Yoda has wierd hitboxes that cause some horizontal attacks to whiff. This is, of course, completely remedied by just using low-mid attacks, and doesn't at all break the character, but some people like to complain, I guess.