Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[~TBS~]

TBH, I think we're kinda rounding up Samus. Samus has some decent abilities, but still Sonic are bettur :O
Her aerials are near lagless and hard to punish, but her smashes and D-tilt (kill moves) are easily punishable.

So, her setups doesnt matter Gf2tw? D: Kojin with his wall of text basically just evaluated everything, but i am still a little slow. Sonic IS a popular character, but only a select few knows how to use him properly. Samus users are even more scarce than we are, so we have more tourney rankings. So, while tourneys are a valid point for saying C is better than U, it still needs more input.

You guize basically evaluated everything (curse you speedy posters) about that, though. Our Speed allows us to capitalize on out opponents misteaks, no matter who they are. We can punish even the slightest ending lag, more effeicently than Samus can to any other character. Like Kinzer mentioned, we arent completly wrecked by Samus's worst matchups.

As for the ranking in the future, I can actually see both moving up, but Sonic will be higher. When playing others of the cast, our matchups are bad, but we can definitely get around those kinds of disadvantages.

 

[Crystanium]

So what should we be doing then? should we take the SBRB tier list approach and just say X is better than Y with no justification whatsoever?

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification? Either way, one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters, therefore, one character is going to have different match-ups than the other. What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change, unless you find some ground-breaking AT.

 

[JayBee]

yeah i agree. this is a really hard thread to deal with off the bat, but is still needed as the next list approaches. I think though, that in order to compare who is "better" we must look at thier game in the bigger picture, against the current meta, as well as weaknesses strengths and such. Plus I'm looking at tourneys, and it appears sonic is having a bigger impact despite the low number of good ones...

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification?

Maybe it's worth looking into why this misconception exists.

one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters, therefore, one character is going to have different match-ups than the other. What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change, unless you find some ground-breaking AT.

You're right in that Sonic =/= Samus. You're right that they have different strengths/weaknesses, and as a result stack up relatively different to the rest of the cast based on those strengths/weaknesses compounded by the strengths/weaknesses of the rest of the cast.

However.

This isn't an A>B>C style matchup thread; the SBR ask us to prove why Sonic should move up. The Sonic boards are taking another perspective in delivering our argument, analyzing the elements of our character's game versus the elements of those in other characters in the cast. Basically, we're trying to do what the SBR does; evaluate the characters. The only difference is we have an agenda, promoting Sonic as we rightly should. This isn't to say Sonic is the best character in the game [completely not the case].

The SBR, or at least one member of, put sonic below Samus because Samus has a projectile, thinking that Sonic can't deal with characters with projectiles. Ok, so Samus can use projectiles better than Sonic. Samus can also use projectiles better than Marth. Why isn't Samus above Marth?

So, what you're doing is comparing apples with oranges. Nice to know.

Isn't that ... what the SBR did? If not, and if the Tier List isn't the order of the cast in terms of how they relate eachother, then what is the point of the Tier List? Because that is exactly what we are doing; relating Sonic to the rest of the cast.

 

[Kinzer]

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification? Either way, one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters, therefore, one character is going to have different match-ups than the other. What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change, unless you find some ground-breaking AT.

I don't see where they have their justifications or reasoning for doing their thing, as in a consensus of stuff like Ness/Lucas being in the same spot, or maybe why Sheik/Zelda are yet to have their own spot on the tier list... or perhaps why D3 dropped and Falco rose to his spot.

At least with this thread we try to bring reason as to why Sonic might deserve his rightful spot.... which IMHO is just two spots higher and I'll be happy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

how much damage does fair do for samus?

Depends on how well you DI.
Though I believe she ca get more damage since its less hits and ot as easily escaped.

also, samus's jabs and tilts are all better than sonics
up tilt is strong, has a lot of hit stun (COMBOES), and hits bf platforms, and has a lot fo range and can there fore edgeguard effectively.

Samus has the worst jab. It has absolutely no hitstun on the first hit so if you DI down and do anything, she will get hit by it.

Utilt yes, but only set up for a combo when the opponent is on the ground.
Dtilt kills but is rather hard to land because she has almost no set up for it that do not require her to get upclose to the opponent.

f tilt is fast in starting and ending, and has great range.
d tilt is fast and kills.

Our Ftilt has better range though and is faster than hers. The ending lag is more though.
Dtilt requires higher percents to kill. She also has an issue setting it up IIRC.

i think samus is really bad because what is supposedly her best move, zair, only does 4 %, and while i realise that its supposed to be a setup, thats still really bad.

no it isn't
A shine from falco or Fox in melee didnt do much damage.

her morph bombs being on a timer only instead of a timer and a motion detection basis, makes those much much worse than they used to be.

You can run into them I guess if you count that.

i will say though that her dair is really great cus even if it doesnt kill you, it can easily techchase into her f smash, which can kill with the established roll DI

Established roll DI?
And I am not too sure about following the tech chase with an fsmash. Might be character dependent since, of course, some roll farther or faster than others.

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification? Either way, one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters, therefore, one character is going to have different match-ups than the other. What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change, unless you find some ground-breaking AT.

Except that she doesn't do that much better and suffers a massive hard counter at the hands of DDD.
If we go matchup wise alone Sonic should be above, a hard counter is a hard counter even if that hard counter were to lay in bottom tier.

if it were that Samus was overall, clearly superior to Sonic, there would be no issue.
This however, is contradicted by the fact that her matchups arent better and she suffers a hard counter while Sonic, currently, does not appear to have one.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

i think samus is really bad because what is supposedly her best move, zair, only does 4 %, and while i realise that its supposed to be a setup, thats still really bad.

Well 4% is no biggie, but if used correctly it's just so safe... I mean t doesn;t matter how if it did 1% if you can get hit by it 30-50 times in a row without landing a retaliation.

So, what you're doing is comparing apples with oranges. Nice to know.

No. Comparing Characters to Characters. Some people call it a "Tier List"

Her aerials are near lagless and hard to punish, but her smashes and D-tilt (kill moves) are easily punishable.

So are Sonics. :/

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification?

No. They'r compare Apples to Oranges.

Either way, one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters

Exactly. Which is why one will inherently have more overall potential then the other. You seem to dislike the idea of this discussion yet your reasons seem to support why the discussion is a good idea. : D

This guy got the right idea. I don't even need his whole post though. I can sum it up in one line.

we're trying to do what the SBR does

Much the same as SBR must have to determine Tiers they look at the characters and decide who's better in theory based on matchups, attributes, movesets and effectiveness. Instead of just saying "Put Sonic in Mid Tier" we're actually being responsible and intelligent about it and discussing each character on his level in depth and analysing if Sonic truly is better then them or not. The more co-operation from Samus players there is the easier this will be.

Samus has the worst jab. It has absolutely no hitstun on the first hit so if you DI down and do anything, she will get hit by it.

Utilt yes, but only set up for a combo when the opponent is on the ground.
Dtilt kills but is rather hard to land because she has almost no set up for it that do not require her to get upclose to the opponent.


Our Ftilt has better range though and is faster than hers. The ending lag is more though.

If you're comparing moves don't compare them to their counterparts in button input. COmpare them to moves that do the same job as each other. Don't compare Sonic's DTilt to Samus' compare his kill moves spacing moves and damage moves to hers.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So are Sonics. :/

Which aerials have you been using. D-air, U-air (first hit) and F-air all have major landing lag.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Which aerials have you been using. D-air, U-air (first hit) and F-air all have major landing lag.

I was responding to the Kill moves are punishable part. Back air and Forward Smash aren't really very safe if you miss. Down Smash definately isn't.

No love for PT?

Well...

PT is lower on the tier list than Sonic. Though I do agree that he should be higher, I cannot say exactly where, but seeing as how he is not above Sonic.... only yet and maybe, it really is not a concern.

But now the discussion is why Powersuit Samus above Sonic was a huge mistake.

I wonder who it is next, if it isn't the person two spots above Sonic, and wather or not that one character does deserve to be above Sonic.

I say carry on upwards here. Instead of asking Sonic to discuss them I would suggest Pokemon Trainer boards make a similar thread discussing the people above them and whether/why they deserve to be above them in much the same way. PT should start with the character directly above them...Sonic. I'm sure the Sonic mains will be willing to come in and spread some knowledge on Sonic and be overall helpful and unbiased on the subject. Better to start your own initiative then ask others to pause their own.

 

[aeghrur]

Why would the SBR say, "X is better than Y" without any justification?

They do. Just a lot of their justification is made of BS and biased against certain characters.

Either way, one thing won't change: Samus and Sonic aren't the same characters, therefore, one character is going to have different match-ups than the other.

Duh. I think we can all agree.

What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change, unless you find some ground-breaking AT.

??? this is the part where I go WTF? Your criteria goes both ways. o_O What if sonic happens to do good against Metaknight but Samus can't? Shouldn't Sonic be higher than? And should this be true, wouldn't Sonic doing better against Metaknight have more weight than say Samus doing better against PT?
And moreover, wouldn't the character's overall rankings matter more than how one does better on an individual matchup compared to another character?

 

[Kitamerby]

Can't kill meaning not killing untill 130% or so. D-air is an option, but good players don't get spiked often...
And Samus B-air is like Sonics. It can kill at high % too.

I saw Tudor spike DSF the other day. :D

Sure, he lost the set, but he freaking spiked DSF's Meta Knight.

Don't pull that "good players don't get spiked" shtick when it comes to Samus. She'll find a way.

Samus's edgeguarding is too pro.

 

[aeghrur]

I saw Tudor spike DSF the other day. :D

Sure, he lost the set, but he freaking spiked DSF's Meta Knight.

Don't pull that "good players don't get spiked" shtick when it comes to Samus. She'll find a way.

Samus's edgeguarding is too pro.

Whoa, what percent was this. O_O
to spike MK, dang, lol.
Underestimation by me. xD

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you're comparing moves don't compare them to their counterparts in button input. COmpare them to moves that do the same job as each other. Don't compare Sonic's DTilt to Samus' compare his kill moves spacing moves and damage moves to hers.

Your response is completely unnecessary since there was no move to move comparison except for the case of the jabs and Ftilt and Utilt.
Samus' Utilt accomplishes the same job as Sonic's and more. Hence it is better.
Samus Ftilt is slightly inferior because Sonics is slightly faster with more range.
Dtilt was never compared.


If you would like me to compare smashes and spacing tools then no, its already been iterated by several other posters prior to myself.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

He said they don't get spiked OFTEN.

 

[Crystanium]

The more co-operation from Samus players there is the easier this will be.

You'll only end up with a one-sided argument in this one. It doesn't seem that anyone from the Samus board cares enough about this. I haven't gotten into an argument on why I think Samus is better than Sonic. Then again, if the SBR left every board to their own devising, it makes you wonder how far the next tier list would get before everyone agreed with each other.

They do. Just a lot of their justification is made of BS and biased against certain characters.

And you know this, how? I hope it isn't because Sonic is placed where you don't want him to be.

I guess I should request from the SBR that we argue in favor on why Samus is better than the other characters above her like Mario, Ness and Lucas.

What if sonic happens to do good against Metaknight but Samus can't? Shouldn't Sonic be higher than? And should this be true, wouldn't Sonic doing better against Metaknight have more weight than say Samus doing better against PT?
And moreover, wouldn't the character's overall rankings matter more than how one does better on an individual matchup compared to another character?

I don't see why Meta Knight would be the sole purpose of determining who is better as a character overall. The questions you are asking me are carried with a motive. That motive is only that you get your desired answers from me. In other words, you're hoping to hear from me what you want to hear. That seems a bit biased. Funnily, I can ask you the very same questions.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

You'll only end up with a one-sided argument in this one. It doesn't seem that anyone from the Samus board cares enough about this. I haven't gotten into an argument on why I think Samus is better than Sonic.

Well that's a shame, it'll hinder the discussion a little.

Then again, if the SBR left every board to their own devising, it makes you wonder how far the next tier list would get before everyone agreed with each other.

I'd like to think that the more intelligent and respectful of the character boards can see and accept their character for what they truly are rather then just demanding a higher position for their character. By no means should I say the character boards should write the tier list but at the same time they can give some insight to those who do. Are the character boards likely to want to see their character in a good light and slightly exaggerate their potential. Yes. But they're also the most knowledgable about what their character is capable of too. If this thread cultivates some good discussion it's definately worth a look by the SBR as long as they take some of the more wild theorycraft with a pinch of salt. The SBR are nice and prepared to admit they can't know everything about every character and the lower end of the tier list isn't quite as accurate as the higher one. Where better to go for information then to the mains of said characters?

I don't see why Meta Knight would be the sole purpose of determining who is better as a character overall.

Indeed.

 

[aeghrur]

And you know this, how? I hope it isn't because Sonic is placed where you don't want him to be.

Sonic is pretty minor complaint.
Main one, NESS AND LUCAS. Lol.

I guess I should request from the SBR that we argue in favor on why Samus is better than the other characters above her like Mario, Ness and Lucas.

I want the SBR to argue why Ness and Lucas are in the same place first.

I don't see why Meta Knight would be the sole purpose of determining who is better as a character overall.

Did I say the sole purpose? Not at all. The first thing I said was that under your idea of who should be higher than who, I pointed out that it's flawed to say they should stay the same because of both character's matchup with ONE character. The second statement, I said it should carry more weight, as it should. Don't twist my words please.

The questions you are asking me are carried with a motive. That motive is only that you get your desired answers from me. In other words, you're hoping to hear from me what you want to hear. That seems a bit biased. Funnily, I can ask you the very same questions.

Of course I'm biased, doesn't mean I don't have my points though. However, my motive is not to get the desired answer as much as to rebut your argument. I'm hoping more for a rebuttal of my questions than what I want to hear because I like debating.

Now, you must admit as well that you're biased in this as well. In this, clearly we're both biased so now I must ask, what did saying I'm biased really do?

 

[Crystanium]

Well that's a shame, it'll hinder the discussion a little.

That's an understatement. I wouldn't look to da K.I.D. for your information regarding Samus. I can't say I know who he or she mains, but I haven't seen da K.I.D. around the Samus board, let alone contribute the Samus board.

I want the SBR to argue why Ness and Lucas are in the same place first.

Ask them.

Did I say the sole purpose? Not at all. The first thing I said was that under your idea of who should be higher than who, I pointed out that it's flawed to say they should stay the same because of both character's matchup with ONE character. The second statement, I said it should carry more weight, as it should. Don't twist my words please.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean "under your idea"? And who said anything about where "they [Sonic and Samus?] should stay the same because of both character's [sic] matchup with ONE character"? What are you talking about?

Of course I'm biased, doesn't mean I don't have my points though. However, my motive is not to get the desired answer as much as to rebut your argument. I'm hoping more for a rebuttal of my questions than what I want to hear because I like debating.

I haven't made an argument, really.

Now, you must admit as well that you're biased in this as well.

Maybe.

In this, clearly we're both biased so now I must ask, what did saying I'm biased really do?

Good question. Maybe you would like to have a talk with aeghrur. After all, he did say,

They do. Just a lot of their justification is made of BS and biased against certain characters.

What did saying the SBR "is made of BS and biased against certain characters" really do?

 

[Ravin]

Samus's Zair does 7%. 4 when not the tip.

Missiles and so forth can keep sonic away. Considering her Fsmash and Dtilt will be used more because Utilt is a lot slower. So your looking at very likely Horizontal kill moves. This means you are not going to be coming back from high, but low. Samus is excellent offstage more then sonic and yields a higher priority in the air. Your looking at a mix of her moves. He Ftilt comes out faster then his. As well as a jab lock.

Sonic has the speed edge over Samus. But if your wanting to talk about racking up damage. Samus has a lot of greater combos then sonic will. Typically you will Side B to Nair whatever tickles your buttom. But one move out kills any of sonics close range attacks. Thats Up B. If your talking on BF, your going to force close combat with Samus.
Samus can fight close combat. Not the best. But its something.

Also. Samus's Up B eats springs for dinner. Meaning you really /cant/ gimp her. Unless she tethers and goes into a spring. Sonics only real advantage is his speed and ability to close in.

Samus has a lot to utilize. Its mostly circumstational and dependant on DI. A Samus wants to bait you, as noob said. into approching her for traps. Sure, she has lack of kill moves. but wait until you get hit by a fresh Dtilt because you tried to Side B and found out it goes threw it when its fresh. That can kill sonic at 110-120ish if fresh and on BF. FD, 130-140ish.

Samus IMO, has a better setup and all around better character then Sonic. Sonic was widely used at the begining of smash but that didn't change his outcome at all. SBR isn't looking for result anymore. Everyone is using B, A , and S/SS characters. The bottom of the list isn't going to move much.

 

[aeghrur]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean "under your idea"? And who said anything about where "they [Sonic and Samus?] should stay the same because of both character's [sic] matchup with ONE character"? What are you talking about?

What I mean is that if there's a character that Samus can do good against that Sonic cannot do good against, it's not going to change

If there's A character... it's NOT going to CHANGE. So, no, not under my idea at all. Under your words actually. And yes, sonic and samus.

Good question. Maybe you would like to have a talk with aeghrur. After all, he did say,



What did saying the SBR "is made of BS and biased against certain characters" really do?

It stated that I believe the SBR's tierlist cannot be taken as accurate(well, the lower tiers anyhow) as some of it is based upon faulty and one-sided data. Since they're not debating anything, bias is taken into account. It's the same as researching with a lot of bias. =/

 

[Xiahou Dun]

That's an understatement. I wouldn't look to da K.I.D. for your information regarding Samus. I can't say I know who he or she mains, but I haven't seen da K.I.D. around the Samus board, let alone contribute the Samus board.

I read all the character boards although I only post on a few but I'm far from a Samus expert, I just have to know a little about her to get by maining Random. Like I said it's a shame Samus mains don't want to participate we'll be missing out on some advanced Samus knowledge any reason why you don't want to participate in the discussion?(You personally I'm not asking you to answer for the Samus boards. Chances are the majority probably just haven't looked in this thread)

 

[Crystanium]

If there's A character... it's NOT going to CHANGE. So, no, not under my idea at all. Under your words actually. And yes, sonic and samus.

I never said under your idea, silly. I was quoting you, and "your" was directed to me. I still don't know what you're talking about.

I read all the character boards although I only post on a few but I'm far from a Samus expert, I just have to know a little about her to get by maining Random. Like I said it's a shame Samus mains don't want to participate we'll be missing out on some advanced Samus knowledge any reason why you don't want to participate in the discussion?(You personally I'm not asking you to answer for the Samus boards. Chances are the majority probably just haven't looked in this thread)

Why do I not want to participate? Bad experience in the past. It's like discussing a match-up, and you have one person who mains Samus and a load of other people who main a different character in a particular character board. It's not fun to be the only person discussing, and then a hundred coming to quote you in attempts to rebut you. It's too much to deal with alone, even for someone who prefers being alone.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

They do. Just a lot of their justification is made of BS and biased against certain characters.

That is a headslapper; empathy and elaborated logic will go much further to sway people than being subjective/insulting.

@Dyrn: What is wrong with this thread?

/spam

 

[Chis]

This thread has not been derailed.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Missiles and so forth can keep sonic away.

Ehhhhhh. Not really. Sonic has no real troubles whatsoever with projectile spam/camping/ness. But this isn't a matchup thread.

Considering her Fsmash and Dtilt will be used more because Utilt is a lot slower. So your looking at very likely Horizontal kill moves. This means you are not going to be coming back from high, but low. Samus is excellent offstage more then sonic and yields a higher priority in the air.

Sonic's recovery is excellent Vertically. But this isn't a matchup thread. Samus is better at gimping I agree.

Sonic has the speed edge over Samus. But if your wanting to talk about racking up damage. Samus has a lot of greater combos then sonic will.

Care to elaborate on Samus' combo's what's some things you'll see from Samus' all the time? They're both pretty excellent at damage racking in my experience. I'm not sure who has the edge myself.

Typically you will Side B to Nair whatever tickles your buttom.

Really? News to me...: D

But one move out kills any of sonics close range attacks. Thats Up B. If your talking on BF, your going to force close combat with Samus.

Not a matchup thread. But Up B is gooooooooood.

Also. Samus's Up B eats springs for dinner. Meaning you really /cant/ gimp her. Unless she tethers and goes into a spring.

Not a matchup thread but Eff Why Eye, Sonic's Spring is not even a good gimping tool apart from a few situational and rare uses for it dropping on a low recovering Diddy springs to mind. Sonic is a great Gimper, not as good as Samus but not far behind either.

Why do I not want to participate? Bad experience in the past. It's like discussing a match-up, and you have one person who mains Samus and a load of other people who main a different character in a particular character board. It's not fun to be the only person discussing, and then a hundred coming to quote you in attempts to rebut you. It's too much to deal with alone, even for someone who prefers being alone.

You could, well, you know, just, like, get some, other, Samus mains, in here or something?

>.>

 

[aeghrur]

I never said under your idea, silly. I was quoting you, and "your" was directed to me. I still don't know what you're talking about.

o_O, I'm confuzzled about your second sentence now. And I thought you said sonic shouldn't move up as long as Samus does better than sonic on one match-up. o_O
Am I mis-understanding?

To OSM:
Ness:Lucas. Clearly Ness is better and should be ranked higher. This has been agreed upon. Yet... the SBR-B has voted to have them put at the same place? I mean, did some of them not look at the boards at all? For them to be at the same place, two things must happen which are
1. Everyone must agree they're equal
2. Some people must think Ness is better, while some thing Lucas is better.
But... isn't it agreed that Ness is better? o_O This leaves me to believe there's obviously some misinformed people in the SBR-B, or that some of their members are biased against Ness and view him as a bad character without care for his rankings. =/

 

[JayBee]

Samus's Zair does 7%. 4 when not the tip.

Missiles and so forth can keep sonic away. Considering her Fsmash and Dtilt will be used more because Utilt is a lot slower. So your looking at very likely Horizontal kill moves. This means you are not going to be coming back from high, but low. Samus is excellent offstage more then sonic and yields a higher priority in the air. Your looking at a mix of her moves. He Ftilt comes out faster then his. As well as a jab lock.

Sonic has the speed edge over Samus. But if your wanting to talk about racking up damage. Samus has a lot of greater combos then sonic will. Typically you will Side B to Nair whatever tickles your buttom. But one move out kills any of sonics close range attacks. Thats Up B. If your talking on BF, your going to force close combat with Samus.
Samus can fight close combat. Not the best. But its something.

Also. Samus's Up B eats springs for dinner. Meaning you really /cant/ gimp her. Unless she tethers and goes into a spring. Sonics only real advantage is his speed and ability to close in.

Samus has a lot to utilize. Its mostly circumstational and dependant on DI. A Samus wants to bait you, as noob said. into approching her for traps. Sure, she has lack of kill moves. but wait until you get hit by a fresh Dtilt because you tried to Side B and found out it goes threw it when its fresh. That can kill sonic at 110-120ish if fresh and on BF. FD, 130-140ish.

Samus IMO, has a better setup and all around better character then Sonic. Sonic was widely used at the begining of smash but that didn't change his outcome at all. SBR isn't looking for result anymore. Everyone is using B, A , and S/SS characters. The bottom of the list isn't going to move much.

you're approaching this the wrong way. consider the ability of samus's game against the whole cast of brawl. Not just sonic please. added with the tournament placings to prove the effectiveness of sonic and samus's current strategies in the highest levels of competition. something like this. If sonic had a disadvantage against samus that prevented everythign from working, more power to you. but that doesn't tell me that sonic isn't better at competing against the cast of brawl better than she can. seewutimsayin?

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Edit 2:

To OSM:
Ness:Lucas. Clearly Ness is better and should be ranked higher. This has been agreed upon. Yet... the SBR-B has voted to have them put at the same place? I mean, did some of them not look at the boards at all? For them to be at the same place, two things must happen which are
1. Everyone must agree they're equal
2. Some people must think Ness is better, while some thing Lucas is better.
But... isn't it agreed that Ness is better? o_O This leaves me to believe there's obviously some misinformed people in the SBR-B, or that some of their members are biased against Ness and view him as a bad character without care for his rankings. =/

Maybe. Either that or people think very differently about them; the votes were averaged, after all.
imo, Lucas is better than Ness [recovery being the main reason], then again I'm not an expert on either, and my opinion on the matter doesn't have much weight.

To not have this post be spam, Samus is much better at camping than Sonic is. On the other side, Sonic is much more apt to combat projectile camping, right? Or no?

This thread has not been derailed.

Posts 58,60 and 62, along with pretty much everything the mod has been posting, have not contributed to the analysis of Sonic's game in relation to Samus' at all.

Edit 4:

Um, can we link this guy to the SBR weekly character discussion for Sonic? XD

Once that's over, get back to Sonic>Samus

This is a good thread and doesn't need to be de-railed

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202190

 

[JayBee]

we are having an issue with how to approach the argument to begin with...

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Um, can we link this guy to the SBR weekly character discussion for Sonic? XD

Once that's over, get back to Sonic>Samus

This is a good thread and doesn't need to be de-railed

 

[Crystanium]

o_O, I'm confuzzled about your second sentence now. And I thought you said sonic shouldn't move up as long as Samus does better than sonic on one match-up. o_O
Am I mis-understanding?

Maybe. If Samus did better on one match-up than Sonic, and if that was really the only reason why Samus should be higher, I would laugh. Besides, Samus can switch from low-tier to what, high-tier in an instant with the use of the d-pad. And, she can now avoid getting chain-grabbed infinitely by King Dedede.

 

[aeghrur]

Maybe. If Samus did better on one match-up than Sonic, and if that was really the only reason why Samus should be higher, I would laugh. Besides, Samus can switch from low-tier to what, high-tier in an instant with the use of the d-pad. And, she can now avoid getting chain-grabbed infinitely by King Dedede.

Really? That's pretty amazing.
I TOTALLY forgot about the infinite, lol. And now it's no longer an infinite? That's pretty awesome, definitely useful for this discussion.

And OSM, not an expert upon the Ness/Lucas subject either, but I do believe that Ness has better moves like Dair, Side B, stronger side smash, great jab and fair, Usmash, dtilt etc. =/
I'm really not very knowledgeable on Ness/Lucas, I'll admit, lol. I just know it's the community's ideal that Ness>Lucas. xD

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why am I going to respond to this post? Hell we learn more about each others characters. That and I grew bored.

Missiles and so forth can keep sonic away. Considering her Fsmash and Dtilt will be used more because Utilt is a lot slower. So your looking at very likely Horizontal kill moves. This means you are not going to be coming back from high, but low. Samus is excellent offstage more then sonic and yields a higher priority in the air. Your looking at a mix of her moves. He Ftilt comes out faster then his. As well as a jab lock.

Samus Ftilt comes out on frame 7
Sonic's Ftilt comes out on frame 6, and it has longer reach. Doesnt matter much really though.
Missiles do not keep sonic away. The missiles in this game give way to everything, so Sonic can break them with any of his aerials. Let alone due to his high speed run you wont get more than one off.

Now lets say we are hit by the Fsmash, recovering is hardly an issue at all for Sonic. he can side B to momentum cancel then homing attack then double jump without using his spring. hell he doesn't even need to use a homing attack.
You can try to edgeguard him but at best, you will rack up some damage.

Priority is only superior in terms of the Fair. Otherwise, Sonic's Bair and Uair can break all of Samus' aerials or clash when they face the Fair and Nair. Sonic is also much faster and has almost no dead zones in terms of recovery.

Sonic has the speed edge over Samus. But if your wanting to talk about racking up damage. Samus has a lot of greater combos then sonic will.

Can you name them please?
For example, Sonic has an ASC combo that ca do around 32% damage
He does aroud 18%~31% depending on what he does from a grounded spincharge.
He also has various follows ups that he can use pressure and harass Samus.
What is the most that Samus can get out of when she punishes sonic?
What is the situation?
Samus isnt a combo character and while she does have some setups, they are not as

Typically you will Side B to Nair whatever tickles your buttomn.

This is where we run into issues. You are now dealing in absolutes. Sayig we will do this and then...

But one move out kills any of sonics close range attacks. Thats Up B.

We end up with this.
For one, we will not go for a side B to nair p close where you can simply smack us away. That is stupid and it an assumption of what Soic will do.
I can do something similar, if you missile, I side B through it and then proceed to combo you.

Sonics gameplay revolves around staying outside of your range. No Sonic will approach with a spincharge/spindash while you are in a positio to just use a screw attack.

If your talking on BF, your going to force close combat with Samus.
Samus can fight close combat. Not the best. But its something.

This doesn't help at all. I can say the same thing for Sonic. How does her close combat game compare to sonic?

How about spacing? Sonic is an expert at maintaining spacing, and mind you Samus cant truly force Sonic close because of the behavior of her projectiles.
You can use Zair but to what end? Sonic will just stand there or just slowly approach. He can cancel his side B. He can cancel his down B once he starts it in the air.

You are dealing with a character that when he actually does approach, can keep his options open.

Also. Samus's Up B eats springs for dinner.

This matters how exactly? what as in avoiding a gimp?when they are off stage, we wot drop it while you are i a positio to simply ^B.

Sonic drops the spring to harass an opponent Meaning you really /cant/ gimp her. Unless she tethers and goes into a spring. Sonics only real advantage is his speed and ability to close in.

Samus has a lot to utilize. Its mostly circumstantial and dependant on DI.

We assume good DI then

A Samus wants to bait you, as noob said. into approaching her for traps. Sure, she has lack of kill moves. but wait until you get hit by a fresh Dtilt because you tried to Side B and found out it goes threw it when its fresh. That can kill sonic at 110-120ish if fresh and on BF. FD, 130-140ish.

Dtilt fresh kills at around 130% fresh without DI. On Battlefield.
Le alone you have no setups. Again what

First off, why would we sideB into your Dtilt? Why are you assuming what we will do?
Seriously, how would we let ourselves just side B like a newb?

Samus IMO, has a better setup and all around better character then Sonic.

Really? I what way?
Priority? Maybe. Everything else no.

Sonic was widely used at the begining of smash but that didn't change his outcome at all.

What does the beginning of the metagame have to do with present?
If Samus is a better character overall why is she not showing herself doing better?

18 Sonic (6 top8, 3 top4, 5 top2, 1 win) - 68.2 - 20
25 Samus (5 top8, 2 top4) - 40.3 - 30

Samus has ALWAYS been below Sonic i terms of tournament ability. Can you explain this consistent trend.

SBR isn't looking for result anymore. Everyone is using B, A , and S/SS characters. The bottom of the list isn't going to move much.

Irrelevant.


@xiao: How is Samus a better gimper? Elaborate please?

 

[Kinzer]

You'll only end up with a one-sided argument in this one. It doesn't seem that anyone from the Samus board cares enough about this. I haven't gotten into an argument on why I think Samus is better than Sonic. Then again, if the SBR left every board to their own devising, it makes you wonder how far the next tier list would get before everyone agreed with each other.



And you know this, how? I hope it isn't because Sonic is placed where you don't want him to be.

I guess I should request from the SBR that we argue in favor on why Samus is better than the other characters above her like Mario, Ness and Lucas.



I don't see why Meta Knight would be the sole purpose of determining who is better as a character overall. The questions you are asking me are carried with a motive. That motive is only that you get your desired answers from me. In other words, you're hoping to hear from me what you want to hear. That seems a bit biased. Funnily, I can ask you the very same questions.

Well, somebody can just go find a thread in the Samus boards and invite them over here if it bothers you that much that you're the only one here. However I like you and you do your job just fine by yourself, so no problem there IMO.

That's just one of the many things they did wrong, and it's only priority no.1 for us because well... it affects us sort of when our beloved character isn't in the right place he should be, and anybody who has done their homework would know Sonic is still too low, but I do suppose the purpose of this trhead is to try and find what little reasoning there could've been for putting Samus above Sonic.

That's a whole 'nother topic that doesn't pertain to this one, another thread should be made for that.

Ask them.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean "under your idea"? And who said anything about where "they [Sonic and Samus?] should stay the same because of both character's [sic] matchup with ONE character"? What are you talking about?

What did saying the SBR "is made of BS and biased against certain characters" really do?

Watch OS say how DTilts > Sonic, not to mention it would take them a while to answer us. Going to them would do nothing until they get their shizz straight.

It certainly helps in favor of getting one person higher than the other when one can compete with the top-high tiers considering they're in the tourney scene quite often.

It got the truth out.

...

This entire post... should've gone in the matchup thread.

This isn't Sonic vs Samus in a battle, this is on the faulty tier list position.

I also love how one of Xaio's (sp? I can't check right now) post referred to the third person, we're getting more people for ths Sonic boards by the day.

 

[deepseadiva]

Nice thread Sonics. I can see this idea spreading around the character boards.

Though, I'd find it hilarious if this thread stopped right after, or even at, Samus. xD

 

[Kinzer]

I'm all for discussing why Lucas is where he is, let alone why he 2/3 spots higher than Sonic.

As much as I like the Lucas boarders, his character isn't the greatest.

And then ness seems to be a fine candidate with similar problems, but that's for later I suppose.

And then once we get those two spots, we can just let the silly tier list crumble as long as we get sonic in the right spot for eternity.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Sounds good Kinzer. Um, our Bair is more reliable than Lucas' Bair is =/

 

[Chis]

No, we're not moving on yet.

 

[ShadowLink84]

**** I WAS TRICKED! T_T Wasted lucas post is wasted.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

@xiao: How is Samus a better gimper? Elaborate please?

Certainly. To start with Samus can recover almost as well as Sonic. Neither of them have any troubles with going out very far to edgeguard. For one thing Samus' moveset has the Grapple Beam. This has a lot of uses. It can be used to replicate R.O.B's trademark edgeguard where you just jump off and repeatedly spam Forward Air and slowly push them off the side blast zones with a wall of pain. Samus' Grapple Beam does this even better then R.O.B's Forward Air does with its range combined with her floatiness, although R.O.B's awesome Up B makes up for this. Against characters with weak recovery's one Grapple Beam can easily gimp and it's ridiculously easu to land. A chain of multiple Grapple Beams can gimp almost everyone and this is EASY. It is a simple edgeguard to pull off and can give a good turnout.

As well as this Samus' can replicate a popular Lucario Technique of using Forward Air to hold thim in place and then follow up with a Charge shot if you have one stored from earlier. Such a powerful attack so close to the edge of the stage will kill outright very early and knock them far away enough for edgeguarding purposes at almost any percent.

Samus' long lasting Neutral Air can edgeguard in a similar manner to Sheik's. The long lasting hitbox with some great knockbak is seriously useful on any recovery it beats out. This is an easy almsot automatic gimp on some characters like the Space Animals, Falcon Ganon etc, and is still useful on most other characters. Having a hitbox like that is always useful as it makes the timing so much easier.

Samus' Back Air is great. It has pretty decent power and range and Back Air>Grapple Edgehog is very effective in gimping and Back Air can also stage spike and even just outright kill at high percents quite reliably.

Samus' Down Air is brilliant. I love the horizontal range of this Spike. I find it one of the easiest to connect with in the game and it's a pretty strong one too, if this connects you can get some real nice low kills on just about any character in the game and it beats out a lot of Up B's too.

Where she really shines above Sonic is how long she can stay offstage to gimp. She's nice and floaty her jumps are nice and high and she can even use the Mines to aid in this too. When Samus runs out of time she can easily quickly tether then drop and instantly have her jump back again to do a couple more attacks. She can do this multiple times very quickly. This is great against multiple jump recovery's like DeDeDe Kirby and MetaKnight etc as gimpng them is often a matter of a war of attrition rather then of landing a few solid hits. Samus can Back Air, Jump, Back Air, Tether, Jump, Back Air, Tether, Jump Back Air Up B to keep up constant pressure on them as they try to return. Sonic can jump off and land a hit or perhaps 2 sending them far off but against some of the more absurd recovery's in the game he can't really follow up fast enough if this isn't enough to kill. Sonic's Up B doesn't sweet spot, which isn't really a problem for recovery but it does slow you down somewhat here as you have to take a little longer to spring up, fastfall back to the ledge, regrab then head back after them by which time they have usually had enough time to prepare for a safe recovery.

Sonic just can't keep up that wall of edgeguarding pressure for as long as Samus can unless you count Homing Attack but that's really not a very reliable or safe move to use in this situation, it could easily lead to Sonic's death just as much as the other players, and it's not even that good for gimping if it connects. And that's not even starting on how he has no Spike and nowhere near the range of Grapple Beam to utilise and he only matches her potential to Stage Spike or use Back Air to knock them a long way from the ledge. Also he has no Tether to make edgehhogging much easier as you have control of when you get your invinicibility frames. Does dropping a Spring on someone really make up for all those things Samus has on him?

I also love how one of Xaio's (sp? I can't check right now) post referred to the third person, we're getting more people for ths Sonic boards by the day.

Eh?

What?