Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[RenegadeRaven]

Nice thread Sonics. I can see this idea spreading around the character boards.

Though, I'd find it hilarious if this thread stopped right after, or even at, Samus. xD

The beauty is in the attempt. =D

But yeah, that would make me pretty sad. >_>

 

[Kinzer]

Instead of just saying "Put Sonic in Mid Tier" we're actually being responsible and intelligent about it and discussing each character on his level in depth and analysing if Sonic truly is better then them or not.

Nothing you post in the Sonic boards will be forgotten... NOTHING!

Spoiler

Or rather I try to keep up with everything that gets posted around here, if I really do forget something, I'm sure somebody else around here would know.

Hehehehe.... but I don't blame you... once you get a taste of the Steak, you never want to settle for anything less...

*cough* Anyway...

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Ok so what's your point?

 

[Kinzer]

D'oh don't worry about it too much, I've only derailed this.

I was just twiddling my finger at how it looked like just because there's no sign of Sonic in a poster, anybody who does their homework can talk Steak/Sonic/Speed/etc.

Even though we're still on Samus, I can't wait for Lucas.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Has anyone made a thread or went over to the Samus boards to call them all over?

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Has anyone made a thread or went over to the Samus boards to call them all over?

Haha. I don't think so. It's probably a good idea. >.>

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Lol, so where do we post it?

Cause I have a feeling that if we post it in their match up thread, people are gonna come in here with the wrong idea of what this thread's about...

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Lol, so where do we post it?

Cause I have a feeling that if we post it in their match up thread, people are gonna come in here with the wrong idea of what this thread's about...

Just make a thread?

 

[Kinzer]

No, making an announcement thread will only get you infractions.

Just find a general discussion thread, or even the USUDB (Ultimate Spam Us DataBase) if you have to call them over here.

Although I don't know what there is left to discuss.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

No, making an announcement thread will only get you infractions.

Why? That's a pretty stupid rule...

Although I don't know what there is left to discuss.

A fair bit...You really think we've done enough analysis to come to a solid conclusion that Sonic's better then Samus? I don't think so.

 

[Chis]

Edit: Yeah, more discussion. Maybe, I should call over the Samus' again.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I guess I'll just let them know if no one already hasn't. Hopefully we can get a few over.

 

[n00b]

Dtilt fresh kills at around 130% fresh without DI. On Battlefield.
Le alone you have no setups. Again what

@xiao: How is Samus a better gimper? Elaborate please?

as far as no setups for dtilt.. you are doing the same thing Ravin did to you sonic mains. You're assuming Samus mains haven't come up for any good setups for dtilt, or are dealing in absolutes.

In the current samus metagame, you're right. We don't really have setups... but if more Samus mains were willing to experiment you'd see that things like uair, jab cancel, homing missile cancel, grab release, and shield dashing with buffered pivots create openings for dtilts. Personally, I rarely KO with dtilt these days..

And imo Samus is a much better gimper. She can first send a wave of maybe 2-3 missiles to home in on the opponent, forcing a reaction. Depending on the distance from her opponent, she has a variety of moves that can punish that reaction most of the time. If they're far away, zair or chargeshot, if they're close, nair, if they're below/somewhat out of reach dair can follow up.. If they recover below the stage she can grapple for retether invincibility frames on people like link, kirby, marth, ike, w/e.. she can drop bombs down there to interrupt.. plus she can stay off the stage for a loong time with her bomb jumps, floatiness, grapple, high up B and magnet hands..


with all that said, I just wanted to defend samus a little bit and to clarify some things from my perspective. I actually don't care who's better -- i'd like to believe Sonic is a better character, only because I have that little hope in my main.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Personally, I rarely KO with dtilt these days..

What do you usually KO with just out of interest? Fully Charged Shot. I mean 100% of your kills can't all be gimps.

Also I vaguely recall hearing that Samus' Charged Shot's are more powerful when they are just off Full Charge then they are when Fully Charged like Donkey Kong's Neutral B although I could easily be very wrong. :/

Is this true? If so how drastic is the difference in KO power?

 

[Xyro77]

Sonic vs Samus=sonics favor

ill expand on this a little later

 

[Chis]

No Xyro77, this isn't a match up thread. This is to discuss who's the better character in the competitive environment.

 

[Kinzer]

You obviously don't know how he Xyrolls, Chis.

In any case, I already knew Samus was a better gimper, what with that brickwall and junk... however it is a little bit lulzy to say you can tether-gimp people who are most vulnerable to it.

I'm sorry, but I believe even Link can gimp Link, there's no hope for him and just breathing him a centimeter away would take a stock away from him.

Kirby's recovery is... linear, to say the least. His FC doesn't sweetspot, so a lot can be done with that.

Just put a Spring in front of Ike and if you're unlucky, he'll make it back onstage with some extra damage on him...

I see people are starting to explot Marth's recovery... seems like that extra boost from DB doesn't get him anywhere now... regardless, a ledgedropped Bair out to take care of him.

I'm not saying Samus doesn't gimp better, I'm just saying she may have an easier time/more options... perhaps better options if you want to push it, sure why not IDC.

Let me use Sonic and Samus as an example.

It works for Samus to attempt to gimp Sonic because HA is God awful as usual, Spring jump doesn't sweetspot, and other than airdodge, he doesn't have much to work with to avoid things like the missiles or the Charged Shot... but it won't work the other way around thanks to her floatiness, Bombs, Tether, Up-B, blah blah blah.

Now how about Snake, who might have it better?

Well assumnig he recovers from below with that Cypher, you have a problem if you can't harass him... however what if he tries to go high...? All Samus can do is start charging her... Charge Shot, if it wasn't already, however Sonic can pursuit him and if he's careful the worst that could happen is just he gets back on stage. Sure that isn't gimping when you don't put him back offstage, but interpret that as you will.

 

[n00b]

What do you usually KO with just out of interest? Fully Charged Shot. I mean 100% of your kills can't all be gimps.

Also I vaguely recall hearing that Samus' Charged Shot's are more powerful when they are just off Full Charge then they are when Fully Charged like Donkey Kong's Neutral B although I could easily be very wrong. :/

Is this true? If so how drastic is the difference in KO power?

Uair cancel to up angled fsmash. I rarely ever throw a dtilt out without a setup.

 

[Cherry64]

with all that said, I just wanted to defend samus a little bit and to clarify some things from my perspective. I actually don't care who's better -- i'd like to believe Sonic is a better character, only because I have that little hope in my main.

I agree with the stuff I took out with the exception of "I don't really KO with dtilt these days" Sounds fishy to me.

Lawled hard at the quoted bit though. in a match I'd say Samus would lose becasue sonic is fast. he can punish WAY easier than Samus can. But over all I like to think Samus is a bit better. Just because I actually like to think my main doesn't suck...even though it's not true

 

[Panix]

Samus wins this, taunt - class rank up.

Sonic cannot turn into hyper sonic willing

so in my opinion. samus wins.

 

[Tenki]

As far as I've seen, ZSS and power suit Samus are treated as different characters on tier lists, even though Sheik/Zelda and the 3 Pokemon are usually treated as one character.

So in this case, I don't think we'd be taking into account the character switch, since once you go Zero Suit, you can't change back.

 

[ShadowLink84]

As well as this Samus' can replicate a popular Lucario Technique of using Forward Air to hold thim in place and then follow up with a Charge shot if you have one stored from earlier. Such a powerful attack so close to the edge of the stage will kill outright very early and knock them far away enough for edgeguarding purposes at almost any percent

Isnt that considered to be a part of KOing rather than gimping which is to hamper the recovery where they cannot make it to the edge?
The charge shot killing I mean.

Samus' long lasting Neutral Air can edgeguard in a similar manner to Sheik's. The long lasting hitbox with some great knockbak is seriously useful on any recovery it beats out. This is an easy almsot automatic gimp on some characters like the Space Animals, Falcon Ganon etc, and is still useful on most other characters. Having a hitbox like that is always useful as it makes the timing so much easier.

Sonic has something similar with his Nair because it stays out for a long tie and like Samus' air, has great knockback at the beginning.

It does, however, lack in range but this is made up for Sonics incredible speed.

Samus' Back Air is great. It has pretty decent power and range and Back Air>Grapple Edgehog is very effective in gimping and Back Air can also stage spike and even just outright kill at high percents quite reliably.

Well that depends.
Sonics Bair I think is slightly stronger though it doesnt have as much range in comparison.
The issue though is that for boh of those characters, DI makes it so that the opponent can still return because of how strong the DI is in this game.

both of their Bairs can stage spike so that really doesn't mean anything really.
Grapple edgehogging is good for characters with lack luster recoveries but mos can make it back without needing to grab the ledge.

Samus' Down Air is brilliant. I love the horizontal range of this Spike. I find it one of the easiest to connect with in the game and it's a pretty strong one too, if this connects you can get some real nice low kills on just about any character in the game and it beats out a lot of Up B's too.

I want it. ****IT OUR DAIR SPIKED IN THE DEMO!
*cough*

Where she really shines above Sonic is how long she can stay offstage to gimp. She's nice and floaty her jumps are nice and high and she can even use the Mines to aid in this too.

Except Samus spends a good amount of time when she plops down a mine during which the opponent is recovering. I hardly see any Samus using their mines to stay outside the stage to edge guard.

When Samus runs out of time she can easily quickly tether then drop and instantly have her jump back again to do a couple more attacks.

the thing is that Sonic can out just as far andd because he is much faster than Samus, he doesnt have to wat for them to get close.

He is also just as quick to return to the edge and can quickly grab the

She can do this multiple times very quickly. This is great against multiple jump recovery's like DeDeDe Kirby and MetaKnight etc as gimpng them is often a matter of a war of attrition rather then of landing a few solid hits.

The problem being that Metaknight can sideB through your wall where as Sonic can simply Fair through it or glide away like he would do against Sonic.
Not sure about DDD I am not very aggressive off stage

Samus can Back Air, Jump, Back Air, Tether, Jump, Back Air, Tether, Jump Back Air Up B to keep up constant pressure on them as they try to return. Sonic can jump off and land a hit or perhaps 2 sending them far off but against some of the more absurd recovery's in the game he can't really follow up fast enough if this isn't enough to kill. Sonic's Up B doesn't sweet spot, which isn't really a problem for recovery but it does slow you down somewhat here as you have to take a little longer to spring up, fastfall back to the ledge, regrab then head back after them by which time they have usually had enough time to prepare for a safe recovery.

How does Samus follow up more quickly to edgeguard an opponent if they are already far off?
By that time, both Sonic and Samus would have returned to the edge since they do have to wait til the opponent gets close.

i can see Samus using her projectiles and other weapons to maintain the edge guard but DI is so absurdly good in this game that it can be difficult to ensure that by the time it hits, they are dead.

For Sonic, we can use a spring to Dair similar to your drop to ^B.
This allows Sonic to place his spring farther away from the edge in order to further hinder the recovery since they have to avoid the spring to continue their recovery.


I dont think both characters can gimp characters with great recovery like Pit or MK or DDD very easily due to the behavior of those characters.

Sonic just can't keep up that wall of edgeguarding pressure for as long as Samus can unless you count Homing Attack but that's really not a very reliable or safe move to use in this situation, it could easily lead to Sonic's death just as much as the other players, and it's not even that good for gimping if it connects.

The homing attack is used when he opponent is above since it will hit the opponent if they do not judge. This is extremely good on characters like peach or DDD who have poor aerial movement and can either kill or hamper them. A homing attack should never kill the sonic player nless he makes a grievous error that would cause it.

Of course Sonic cant keep up the pressure as long before he returns to the ledge due to his lack of floatiness and projectiles, but tyically, this isnt necessary factoring the recovering ability as a whole.

And that's not even starting on how he has no Spike and nowhere near the range of Grapple Beam to utilise and he only matches her potential to Stage Spike or use Back Air to knock them a long way from the ledge.

We have a semispike. Which IMO is a bit better because of how good characters are at recovering vertically this time around.

Also he has no Tether to make edgehhogging much easier as you have control of when you get your invinicibility frames. Does dropping a Spring on someone really make up for all those things Samus has on him?[/quoet]
It makes up for much more than you realize The spring is equivalent to using Link's bomb or TL's bomb. it falls down slowly and hinders the opponents movement. They cannot drop hey have to rise and they have to stop in the air before continuing further. If they avoid it they give up smoe time recovering during which Sonic can drop another spring.

I do think that Samus may be better than Sonic but it doesnt seem to be as much because of how good recoveries are in the game.

What about everything else though?
If Samus' can only truly say she is better at edge guarding then how is she better?
What about matchup wise where Sonic is so far, superior?
Or their capabilities?



Eh?

What?

as far as no setups for dtilt.. you are doing the same thing Ravin did to you sonic mains. You're assuming Samus mains haven't come up for any good setups for dtilt, or are dealing in absolutes.

Hence why I said correct me if I am wrong.

In the current samus metagame, you're right. We don't really have setups... but if more Samus mains were willing to experiment you'd see that things like uair, jab cancel, homing missile cancel, grab release, and shield dashing with buffered pivots create openings for dtilts. Personally, I rarely KO with dtilt these days..

jab has NO hitstun. There is no way for her to land the Dtilt off a jab cancel period.
Not sure about homing missile cancel.
grab release doesnt set up for anything. You both have the same amount of time to use a move. 30 frames.
Shield dashing with pivots sounds like its part of a mindgame so its hard to really say how good it is.

And imo Samus is a much better gimper. She can first send a wave of maybe 2-3 missiles to home in on the opponent, forcing a reaction. Depending on the distance from her opponent, she has a variety of moves that can punish that reaction most of the time. If they're far away, zair or chargeshot, if they're close, nair, if they're below/somewhat out of reach dair can follow up.. If they recover below the stage she can grapple for retether invincibility frames on people like link, kirby, marth, ike, w/e.. she can drop bombs down there to interrupt.. plus she can stay off the stage for a loong time with her bomb jumps, floatiness, grapple, high up B and magnet hands..

I think I covered this and I dont think she is that much of a better gimper than Sonic, primarily because of how easy it is to recover and how Sonic has much more speed to his aerial movement than Samus (not mobility).

it alsos eemsl ike when Samus does have an advantage in gimping, it is against characters who dont recover very well.

with all that said, I just wanted to defend samus a little bit and to clarify some things from my perspective. I actually don't care who's better -- i'd like to believe Sonic is a better character, only because I have that little hope in my main.

RAWR HE IS BETTER. EAT SOME STEAK!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still maintain that samus's jab is better than sonics

neither of them leads into anything, neither of them should be canceled into other moves agianst a good player, and samus's has more range and les lag

 

[n00b]

Samus doesn't use her jab on a grounded opponent, lol.. dash attack or uair pops them up first.

 

[Hive]

Idk i use samus' jab to lead into dtilit against a lot of characters (not really against marths though )

as for samus vs sonic... i'd have to go with sonic lol. samus is a good character right now when compared to sonic but a lot of that is her surprise factor i think. she plays so differently than what most people are used to that she can even beat people who are renowned for player skill if they do not have the matchup experience vs. samus. sonic has the same thing going imo but to a lesser extent ^^
so really i think samus will actually settle down a bit over time.

some advantages samus has:
long distance game- well, duh. her brickwalls and projectile game are what she's known for.
ledge game- imo is the second best in the game besides mk. she has sooo many options here.
offledge game- both of their recoveries are pretty good, but samus imo can spike better.
gaining damage quick- she has a lot of short burst combos that she utilizes after her spam walls create openings in the opponent's defenses. a lot of her spam wall is mainly just creating these openings not doing damage.
-surprise factor! (even against character matchups she has like 70-30 against she can even pull off a total win if the other person doesn't know the matchup).

unfortunately though she does have these problems:
-her moves are pretty situational, and she is below average close range (she can still do some stuff here, but not as much as most other characters).
-she can't ko well, this is definitely a problem against some characters like ddd where you have to wait until 160% (and in order to do this you usually have to get into cg range) <.< and is also a problem if she's out of her chargeshot as a ko option and can't restore it, she has to approach and use dtilt or fsmash to get the ko. if the opponent anticipates this they can really gain damage by predicting her movements and keeping at a range/being cautious (the spam damage doesn't matter if they are already in ko range ^^).
-Characters that can get past her spam walls, like mk, and enemies that can outspam her, like falco will **** her.
-Because a lot of her spams are kinda have semi high trajectories, she gets hurt by short characters too
-A lot of her worse matchups are also some of the most played characters. MK, falco, ddd, and marth are some of her worst and are also very frequent in tournaments. falcos and mks catch on to the matchup the quickest. marth and ddd you can actually pull off some wins against if they don't know the matchup though ^^


looking at the tourney records for each, i got to say they are a little similar ^^ i'd say that sonic does a bit better though though i wouldn't expect either of them to win a major tourney. ^^ sonic is a kwl character imo, whenever i play them they are always in my face lol and i have to play defensive which is sooo weird for me. If you guys are looking for characters that probably will prevent sonic from being higher i'd say pokemon trainer though is probably a good bet! serious! p.t. doesn't get that much rep but he can actually do very well in tourneys and can pull off top ten in the biggest tournaments even. AD, Typh, Magikarp... etc... (too bad ad and typh play lucario now though <.<). pt doesn't have as many bad matchups either ^^

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samus doesn't use her jab on a grounded opponent, lol.. dash attack or uair pops them up first.

No hitstun though. You can actually hit her before she uses her own attack. There was a video some time ago.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if you mean hit her before she can do another attack, same goes for sonic

if you mean cna hit her before the second jab comes out, i say 1. i dont believe you. and 2. wow, thats effign awful

 

[Tenki]

if you mean hit her before she can do another attack, same goes for sonic

if you mean cna hit her before the second jab comes out, i say 1. i dont believe you. and 2. wow, thats effign awful

there was a video of 2 people playing Samus in Brawl, and they kept hitting each other between first jabs

(Samus1 jab)
(Samus2 jabs back out of hitstun)
...repeat

edit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

sawp

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Isnt that considered to be a part of KOing rather than gimping which is to hamper the recovery where they cannot make it to the edge?
The charge shot killing I mean.

Eh. I consider a Gimp a kill at a really low percent you shouldn't normally be able to kill at. I mean spikes KO outright rather then hamper recovery most of the time and they're considered gimps right?

Sonic has something similar with his Nair because it stays out for a long tie and like Samus' air, has great knockback at the beginning.

It does, however, lack in range but this is made up for Sonics incredible speed.

Eh it's long lasting hitbox is a little lacklustre for my liking. He can do something similar sure but Samus' is better for sure if you ask me. Also his speed doesn't help him much in this situation.

Well that depends.
Sonics Bair I think is slightly stronger though it doesnt have as much range in comparison.
The issue though is that for boh of those characters, DI makes it so that the opponent can still return because of how strong the DI is in this game.

both of their Bairs can stage spike so that really doesn't mean anything really.
Grapple edgehogging is good for characters with lack luster recoveries but mos can make it back without needing to grab the ledge.

Yes Sonic's is slightly stronger. But it's slower and shorter. If it actually connects both tend to get the job done equally well, Samus' is better at actually connecting.

Both can Stage Spike equally well regardless of the small gap in power so here range and speed are all that's considered.

Tether edgehogs by themselves only work on characters with weak recovery's but knocking an opponent away with Neutral Air/Back Air so they now need to go for the ledge followed by a tether edgehog works even on characters with good recovery's.

I want it. ****IT OUR DAIR SPIKED IN THE DEMO!
*cough*

Except Samus spends a good amount of time when she plops down a mine during which the opponent is recovering. I hardly see any Samus using their mines to stay outside the stage to edge guard.
the thing is that Sonic can out just as far andd because he is much faster than Samus, he doesnt have to wat for them to get close.

Eh it's something that is useful one in a million times but I've used it once or twice. It being there is helpful in the slightest little way possible so...

He might be able to get to them faster but due to range Samus doesn't have as far to go so they cancel each other out.

He is also just as quick to return to the edge and can quickly grab the

I disagree.

i can see Samus using her projectiles and other weapons to maintain the edge guard but DI is so absurdly good in this game that it can be difficult to ensure that by the time it hits, they are dead.

Edgeguarding isn't all about killing. Doing a ton of damage to them before they return is still very very good.

The homing attack is used when he opponent is above since it will hit the opponent if they do not judge. This is extremely good on characters like peach or DDD who have poor aerial movement and can either kill or hamper them. A homing attack should never kill the sonic player nless he makes a grievous error that would cause it.

Pssht I know how ot use Homing Attack. What I meant was that since Homing Attack is situational to land Sonic can't use it to stay out for a long time like Samus can as repeatedly Homing Attacking is not a good idea and Sonic has to return to the ledge sooner.

Of course Sonic cant keep up the pressure as long before he returns to the ledge due to his lack of floatiness and projectiles, but tyically, this isnt necessary factoring the recovering ability as a whole.

We have a semispike. Which IMO is a bit better because of how good characters are at recovering vertically this time around.

A Semi-Spike is BETTER then a Spike? What?

I never claimed Samus was miles better at gimping then Sonic was, Sonic has always been good at gimping. But several people directly stated that Sonic was a better gimper and I had to disagree. Samus is slightly better at it for sure.

 

[ShadowLink84]

if you mean hit her before she can do another attack, same goes for sonic

if you mean cna hit her before the second jab comes out, i say 1. i dont believe you. and 2. wow, thats effign awful

1. There is a video on youtube showing Samus' jabbing each other back and forth before the secnod hit of the jab comes out.
2.Thats why Samus is said to have the worst jab in the game.
3. Told you about being a mouth.

Eh. I consider a Gimp a kill at a really low percent you shouldn't normally be able to kill at. I mean spikes KO outright rather then hamper recovery most of the time and they're considered gimps right?

That depends on the situation. gimping is typically considered where you place the oppoent i a position where they cant make it. So I suppose that a spike can be a KO move or a gimp depending on what happens.
I had brought it up a looong time ago because I wasnt sure.

Eh it's long lasting hitbox is a little lacklustre for my liking. He can do something similar sure but Samus' is better for sure if you ask me. Also his speed doesn't help him much in this situation.

I think it does actually, primarily because it lets him get to characters whom Samus would normally wait for because of how quick their recoveries may be or how they may behave during their recovery. If ind thatwhen I use Sonic, I am able to go out and harass them more quickly and tack on more damage even if I dont outright gimp them.

Yes Sonic's is slightly stronger. But it's slower and shorter. If it actually connects both tend to get the job done equally well, Samus' is better at actually connecting

Booooo

Both can Stage Spike equally well regardless of the small gap in power so here range and speed are all that's considered.

We must however take into when the stage spikes happen and that typicall occurs when the opponent is near the stage and it is difficult to stage spike due to auto sweet spotting.

Tether edgehogs by themselves only work on characters with weak recovery's but knocking an opponent away with Neutral Air/Back Air so they now need to go for the ledge followed by a tether edgehog works even on characters with good recovery's.

true but I have managed to replicate something similar using Sonics spring` Dair.
The spring pushes them awya enough while the Dair lets me grab the ledge more quickly than if I tried to spring for it.

Not too sure how effective it is thuogh since i have only done it on a few people;.

Eh it's something that is useful one in a million times but I've used it once or twice. It being there is helpful in the slightest little way possible so...

He might be able to get to them faster but due to range Samus doesn't have as far to go so they cancel each other out.

True

I disagree.

We are probably thinking o it from different ways. Like in terms of when she is in grapple range she does return more quickly but afterwards is what i pertained to since thats typically what I do with Sonic.

Edgeguarding isn't all about killing. Doing a ton of damage to them before they return is still very very good.

Can you tell me how much damage she can rack?
And i mentioned the damage aspect earlier =p

Pssht I know how ot use Homing Attack. What I meant was that since Homing Attack is situational to land Sonic can't use it to stay out for a long time like Samus can as repeatedly Homing Attacking is not a good idea and Sonic has to return to the ledge sooner.

True but that goes for both characters because her mines cant really be used for a gimp because of how far they drop. I could see it being used against an opponent who recovers low but what about at ledge level or higher?
Its great that she can stay out a long time but she usually doesnt have to stay out that long unless is ts a multijump characters and they can usually glide.

A Semi-Spike is BETTER then a Spike? What?

I already explained it didnt I?
I this game, vertical recovery is much easier to perform due to the mechanics of the game.
A number of characters ca recover from a spike from Samus due to how high they can recover vertically.

Most characters can have issues when semispiked because. even though they arent being sent vertically, they have to deal with the extra distance of the horizontal trajectory which adds distance and makes it easier to gimp.

I never claimed Samus was miles better at gimping then Sonic was, Sonic has always been good at gimping. But several people directly stated that Sonic was a better gimper and I had to disagree. Samus is slightly better at it for sure.

I dont believe i said you had.

 

[Kinzer]

Aww Hive.

Sonic doesn't even have anything to make people feel pressured to approach other than a % lead (if they don't have a projectile), and their sheer hate for Sonic.

Spoiler

However side-taunt must be annoying for some people, I never stop spamming that move. It's just too good not to use

Anybody can spike better than Sonic as long as they have an actual spike. All we have is the Spring and that sweetspotted Dair... Teehee Link/Peach.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the tier list for the tourney results placings? Last I checked Sonic is consistently placing around 17-21st place, and for a good while was even in the 10th place spot. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but even though both are incompitent about winning any major tourneys, where has Samus been? How about her best placing...?

A lot of people are suggesting we go over PT... while I can't blame them, is it really our duty to have to go over somebody who is below us...? I won't say PT isn't showing potential, but the purpose of this thread is to try and to find reasons as to why Sonic was placed as low as he was... sure one could argue who is higher for Sonic/PT, but something doesn't seem to be... "on schedule" for lack of better wording... It could be because of our character bias, and that we will trust the false SBR this time around that their reasoning for putting Sonic above PT is legit... Perhaps we could revive this thread again sometime in the future, because as much evidence we throw at the false SBR to put Sonic higher, that worked really well this last time, and I'm pretty sure they'll do such a good job again that we... d'oh just forget it, I'm pretty sure that if they really do mess up (again), we will find something to do...

 

[Hive]

@kinzer- exactly ^^ wait, isn't that what i said? :D (sonic is probably better and has a better tourney record comparitevely probably).

sorry for suggesting pt though, i guess it was a little off topic ^^ but idk i guess i just thought pt would be the best bet.
sonic is a kwl character though, i love watching you guys play! (and hate fighting you guys ^^)

edit: samus probably places around 17th-25 in mid size high concentration tourneys, and about 25/250 in regionals or above btw imo

 

[Kinzer]

Well, yes, it was what you said, I really have no idea why I made that reply other than maybe the question I had about Samus' tourney placings, and that PT thing.

In any case, please do not apologize, ever this the dreaded Xat came around (don't take my word on that, it's actually a nice hangout), these boards are a little bit more quiet, and any kind of discussion so long as it pertains to the topic at hand is actually... nice, to say the least.

Edit: Oh is that so? Why did I get the impression that Samus was on a lower average? If that's true, she's been placing almost just as well has Sonic has! I don't know what that regionals thing is, but whatever I suppose, I was looking for this kind of answer in this format.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

As of now, Samus is not too far off behind.

People ballin' on low-tires, doing their work, lol.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

If people want to talk about PT, then PT boards need to put in the effort that you guys have been doing and work their way up to us. It's that simple.

 

[Crystanium]

There is no way for her to land the Dtilt off a jab cancel period.

I've done it before. Other Samus mains have done it before. Your assertion is false.

2.Thats why Samus is said to have the worst jab in the game.

If you're going to say what is good or bad based off of hitstun... Let's look at the whole picture. Hitbox is somewhat large. Samus can be facing the opposite direction and hit her opponent. Her jab has excellent priority. It can cancel out attacks like Snake's jab or Charizard's Rock Smash. It's also three frames. Jab cancel is also easy to perform, and it pesters Samus' opponents.

 

[da K.I.D.]

where as sonics jab

very small hitbox, does not hit behind him, so so priority because of crap range cancels out moves like weak Donkey punches, also 3 frames, but the second hit can be made to whiff, jab cancel is very very bad, and doesnt set up for anything really, except maybe a d tilt.

conclusion

samus jab > sonic jab

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Pfft obviously lies. Everyone knows that nothing beats Rock Smash.

 

[Camalange]

does not hit behind him

It does.

It still sucks though.

 

[n00b]

No hitstun though. You can actually hit her before she uses her own attack. There was a video some time ago.

there are very few aerials that come out faster than a jab canceled ANYTHING of samus's, which is why I said no Samus main uses jabs on a grounded opponent. Jabbing a samus on the ground = get jabbed back over and over. Jabbing a snake = jab ftilt, jabbing a falco = jab to cg, etc.

Again, I don't really care if Samus is better or worse than sonic (I like to think she's worse) but I'm just clearing up that info for your guys's sake.

 

[Chis]

Alright, time to rap this up. Verdict guys?