Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[n00b]

Samus for worst character of any video game in existence.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Alright, time to rap this up. Verdict guys?

Verdict is not enough discussion. You've got until June what's the big hurry?

Maybe open a thread for another character but keep this one going too. There's no reason to close it off and summarize if not enough conclusions have been made. Can you really say which one has better setups and options for KO's? Which one can rack damage better? All that's been discussed to a moderate degree of detail is gimping. :/

 

[Kinzer]

Mods are not fond of new threads for the same purpose.

I know I'm not, especially when we're probably in the running for most threads in a character sub-forum, no thanks to the constant spam that used to be here a long time ago. We already have most posts BTW.

And what says you "not enough discussion?" If that's the case, why don't you bring something up for us to talk about, because I can't see anything left to do but move on.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Mods are not fond of new threads for the same purpose.

-.-"

I forget how stupidly overzealous mods are about closing threads here.

I know I'm not, especially when we're probably in the running for most threads in a character sub-forum, no thanks to the constant spam that used to be here a long time ago. We already have most posts BTW.

Meh number of threads or posts has nothing to do with spam. Could anyone argue this is a spam thread? Not really. This isn't like a matchup thread where if it's not all done in one go there'll be over 30 threads being made this discussion will see 3-5 characters tops.

And what says you "not enough discussion?" If that's the case, why don't you bring something up for us to talk about, because I can't see anything left to do but move on.

Samus' killing > Sonic's IMO. Discuss.

Sure you could move on if you wish it's not my thread. But tell me were you to move on now what would you write as a summary?

 

[Kinzer]

Fair enough...

I can't really argue who has killing easier, since both are quite lacking in that field.. however to me it seems that both are evenly bad at it... Samus just has more tools to use.

Let me see if I have this right... she has:

FSmash.
DSmash.
Charge Shot.
Bair.
Dair.

This is what Sonic has:

FSmash.
DSmash.
Bair.
...

I could mention more, but I wanted to use the more commonly used ones, and the more realistic if you wanna go that far...

Here's the problems.

Both Sonic and Samus have next to no ways to set up for their kill moves. For Samus, things like getting a Dair will of course have to be done offstage. Charged Shot is very easy to see coming when being charged and being fired at you, and is only an average kill move at that. Bair can be seen coming if Samus has her back facing you, and a pretty good amount of lag. Perhaps just like Sonic's Bair.

Now what does Sonic have that isn't the outlandish Spring -> Uair or Dair/Nair/Fair offstage spike/kills?

Nothing.

His whole game revolves around mindgame set-ups for said kill moves. DSmash is punishable if shielded, Bair is usually too decayed to kill since it has to be sacrificed for a spacer/damage-racker, and FSmash is sadly a tab bit too slow.

Now if you want my general opinion, I could say that Samus < Sonic.

I've already told you above why both suck at killing. Both have decent recoveries, Samus probably has a better offstage game than Sonic, but on the flipside Sonic's metagame has certainly developed for onstage not to mention probably an overall better close-range game. Such a shame that Samus has projectiles, yet they do little.

Both are low-tier for a reason of course, being that their matchups are mostly disadvantaged and the few that are in their favor are once in a blue-moon. Sure Samus counters the likes of Ganon whereas Sonic's best matchup is arguably only 55-45 his favor, but then again you hardly see either character's advanteged matchups in the competitive scene, and as we all know the high tiers are more prominent in said place. A problem for both, but Sonic has it much easier, with only his worst matchup possibly being 35-65 and still winnable to some extent thanks to his bag of tricks/mindgames where he can force player mistakes, whereas Samus not only has D3 to worry about, but many other characters who certainly **** her just as bad if not much harder than Sonic could get the d***.

One could say why Sonic's mindgames shouldn't count, but if you do your homework, can you honestly say that Sonic doesn't have more stuff in his tools to work with than any other character could only dream of having? When Samus gets countered, she gets countered, there's no other way to look at it.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I can't really argue who has killing easier, since both are quite lacking in that field.. however to me it seems that both are evenly bad at it... Samus just has more tools to use.

Let me see if I have this right... she has:

FSmash.
DSmash.
Charge Shot.
Bair.
Dair.

This is what Sonic has:

FSmash.
DSmash.
Bair.
...

I could mention more, but I wanted to use the more commonly used ones, and the more realistic if you wanna go that far...

Here's the problems.

Both Sonic and Samus have next to no ways to set up for their kill moves. For Samus, things like getting a Dair will of course have to be done offstage. Charged Shot is very easy to see coming when being charged and being fired at you, and is only an average kill move at that. Bair can be seen coming if Samus has her back facing you, and a pretty good amount of lag. Perhaps just like Sonic's Bair.

Now what does Sonic have that isn't the outlandish Spring -> Uair or Dair/Nair/Fair offstage spike/kills?

Nothing.

His whole game revolves around mindgame set-ups for said kill moves. DSmash is punishable if shielded, Bair is usually too decayed to kill since it has to be sacrificed for a spacer/damage-racker, and FSmash is sadly a tab bit too slow.

That's close to the mark. I would say Samus' has better semi-setups for kill moves then Sonic does that are definately not reliable but still there all the same. Jab Cancel>Down Tilt can be interrupted sure but if your opponent isn't really quick off the mark it can still land and you won't be punished massively when it doesn't work. There's also Up Air and Forward Air cancels into kill moves. What does Sonic have to match this? Spring > Up Air is great!* and Aerial Spin Charge > Back Air? Ehhh no Comment... It doesn't come up with the goods often enough.

*If the opponent has no Sonic matchup experience whatsoever.

From there we have following up with a Charge Shot or edgeguarding with a Charged Shot. Charged Shot is not easy to land or kill with but having a projectile that can kill is still VERY useful and a definate positive for Samus. Ask Lucario.

Finally Samus' greater quantity of ****ty kill moves allows her to be able to use Fresh Kill moves more readily. Sonic's Forward or Down Smash are usually Fresh but Back Air usually isn't. :/ Samus has the slight edge in crap kill potential if you ask me.

but on the flipside Sonic's metagame has certainly developed for onstage not to mention probably an overall better close-range game.

<3 Sonic's throws.

Such a shame that Samus has projectiles, yet they do little.

The main advantage in having a projectile game tends to be just that it's there rather then what it actually does I find.

A problem for both, but Sonic has it much easier, with only his worst matchup possibly being 35-65 and still winnable to some extent thanks to his bag of tricks/mindgames where he can force player mistakes, whereas Samus not only has D3 to worry about, but many other characters who certainly **** her just as bad if not much harder than Sonic could get the d***.

Sonic tends to have the overall matchup edge when considered as a standalone character with no secondaries considered I agree.

One could say why Sonic's mindgames shouldn't count, but if you do your homework, can you honestly say that Sonic doesn't have more stuff in his tools to work with than any other character could only dream of having? When Samus gets countered, she gets countered, there's no other way to look at it.

MINEDGAYMES are iffy. Although things like landing Ike's Forward Smash off a good prediction/fake out shouldn't be considered Sonic's(And some other characters too) big 'ol bag o' tricks is in a totally different league Sonic's tricks aren't entirely player based and should be considered as a plus for him in any discussion. You don't see people writing off Snake or Game And Watch's down throws or Ganon's Flame Choke as "Mindgames" and therefore not counted in a machup discussion do you? Sure it's all based on guessing player reponses but nonetheless you have the tools to force a number of responses and if they choose the wrong one it could mean very bad things for them. "Mindgames" or not you're still dead...I hate the word mindgames. I don't want to have to ever use it again if possible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've done it before. Other Samus mains have done it before. Your assertion is false.

Frame data proves my statement.
You have no hitstun so by the time you do that Dtilt, you get hit by anything that is around 6 frames in speed. Which at that range, is basically everything.

I've done a jab~Dtilt but I know it shouldn't land.
Just like how I do falcon punches that smack into people.

Frame data>person experience

If you're going to say what is good or bad based off of hitstun...

It's range is jab range which places you in range of **** enar everything in the game.
With no hitstun that means the opponent can easily just hit you back and stop whatever you plan to follow up with.

Let's look at the whole picture. Hitbox is somewhat large. Samus can be facing the opposite direction and hit her opponent. Her jab has excellent priority. It can cancel out attacks like Snake's jab or Charizard's Rock Smash. It's also three frames. Jab cancel is also easy to perform, and it pesters Samus' opponents.

The average jab is three frames so its not impressive.
Special moves like charizards follow the ten % rule and if you notice, the multihit par tof it remains within the 10% range for you to clang
Same for Snake's jab.

Yes you can hit the opponent behind you but by how much? hitbox?

there are very few aerials that come out faster than a jab canceled ANYTHING of samus's, which is why I said no Samus main uses jabs on a grounded opponent. Jabbing a samus on the ground = get jabbed back over and over. Jabbing a snake = jab ftilt, jabbing a falco = jab to cg, etc.

Most aerials come out around frame 5 or so.
Dtilt comes out frame 6. Ftilt 6 and so on and so forth.
For characters who dont have a fast aerial that go in her direction, yes they have an issue but in general, jab is a poor move.

on more than one occassion I have managed to hit my opponent after they jabbed me before they could follow up with anything else.
I have also had it happen to me as well.

I even checked the frame data out.
Even when you jab cancel you just cant follow up with anything on the greatmajority of characters.

Again, I don't really care if Samus is better or worse than sonic (I like to think she's worse) but I'm just clearing up that info for your guys's sake.

Nah dont mind.
I wouldn't be debating if I hadnt checked things out though.

where as sonics jab

very small hitbox, does not hit behind him, so so priority because of crap range cancels out moves like weak Donkey punches, also 3 frames, but the second hit can be made to whiff, jab cancel is very very bad, and doesnt set up for anything really, except maybe a d tilt.

Ground to aerial yes due to the 10% rule
Ground to ground? Not really.

ISonics jab hits behind him at the back of the leg.

conclusion

samus jab > sonic jab

They both suck *** either way.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm pretty sure Grenades do a lot of for Snake, or he wouldn't be the type of character without them.

Now if Samus had a better projectile game... then just maybe...

Well, whether they really help Samus or not doesn't matter, I stand by my point when I say Snake wouldn't be as good without his Grenades.

everything else seems fine I suppose.

Although I must say that Flamechoke isn't so much a mindgame is it is just a move that limits the character's options. Certainly, Ganon can your face die if you make the wrong mistake, but what could Ganon do out of a Flame Choke if all it did was just add damage onto the opponent and leave them standing up like they would be after a ground grab-release? it's the same story with Snake's D-Throw and G&W's, although his is techable which... just leaves the victim to do a little bit more I suppose, depending on how good the character's tech roll is.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I'm pretty sure Grenades do a lot of for Snake, or he wouldn't be the type of character without them.

I don't really consider Grenades a Projectile. They aren't really useful in the same way. They tend to work for Snake more like Diddy's Bananas do. Interruption, distractions, threats. Also dey go boom. I don't think Snake's grenades are really comparable to Samus' projectile game. Nothing to do with if they're better or not (They are. They really really ****ing are. : D) but they're just...Different.

Although I must say that Flamechoke isn't so much a mindgame is it is just a move that limits the character's options. Certainly, Ganon can your face die if you make the wrong mistake, but what could Ganon do out of a Flame Choke if all it did was just add damage onto the opponent and leave them standing up like they would be after a ground grab-release? it's the same story with Snake's D-Throw and G&W's, although his is techable which... just leaves the victim to do a little bit more I suppose, depending on how good the character's tech roll is.

Well they're more hardcore examples which I was using to make a ckear point. Sonic's techniques don't force limited options as much but they still follow the same principle. It's not just standing there, guessing what they'll do then hitting them hard for it. You are actually taking an active role in making them slip up.

 

[Crystanium]

Such a shame that Samus has projectiles, yet they do little.

Maybe against a speedy character like Sonic, but we're not discussing match-ups between Samus and Sonic. So, I brawled with this tough Snake main yesterday, and the thing she had to tell me after we played three rounds (1-2; she won) was that I used Samus as if she were a high-tier character. Why? Well, one of the reasons was with the way I used Samus' projectiles and put pressure.

Frame data proves my statement.
You have no hitstun so by the time you do that Dtilt, you get hit by anything that is around 6 frames in speed. Which at that range, is basically everything.

I've done a jab~Dtilt but I know it shouldn't land.
Just like how I do falcon punches that smack into people.

Frame data>person experience

Sorry, but frame data is nothing more than theory. It's what you make out of it. Reality > theory.

It's range is jab range which places you in range of **** enar everything in the game.
With no hitstun that means the opponent can easily just hit you back and stop whatever you plan to follow up with.

I'm sorry, but what is "**** enar"? With no hitstun, sure, but it doesn't happen 100% of the time, now does it? I didn't think so.

The average jab is three frames so its not impressive.
Special moves like charizards follow the ten % rule and if you notice, the multihit par tof it remains within the 10% range for you to clang
Same for Snake's jab.

I'm not following. Care to clarify?

Yes you can hit the opponent behind you but by how much? hitbox?

I'm not sure, which is why I said "somewhat" in regard to a large hitbox.

You claim that Samus has the worst jab in this game. Care to prove it? This means you must take all thirty-nine (39) characters in this game and prove to me that Samus' jab will be ranked as 39th, being the worst.

 

[Kinzer]

He mistyped "near"

Also frame data only theory?

How can you deny that X move has a full duration of Y frames? This isn't including any IASA frames some moves could have, but isn't it exact?

I know it's not Sonic vs. Samus, but I thought that things like the shield could take care of such tools. P.S. I'm aware of that AT where Samus can fire two missiles in quick sussesion, but it still... well, let's just say I know people like on Ganon, that stuff works wonders...

It can't be the worst, but it certainly is in the running, especially when you can play patty-cake with it...

Where's that Youtube video I saw a very long time ago where two Samus' where trading jabs right after another...?

 

[Crystanium]

Also frame data only theory?

How can you deny that X move has a full duration of Y frames? This isn't including any IASA frames some moves could have, but isn't it exact?

In this case, Samus' jab being three frames. A person without the knowledge that Samus' jab lacks hitstun might take the full hit. Someone who is aware that Samus' jab lacks hitstun might shield the jab, but it doesn't mean this person will counter Samus. The same person might shield Samus' jab and then let go of his or her shield and take the d-tilt. And then there are those who might shield both. It doesn't mean that taking both hits won't ever happen. Saying, "Samus' jab is only three frames, and it lacks hitstun, therefore, it won't land" is untrue, since it has happened before and still happens.

I know it's not Sonic vs. Samus, but I thought that things like the shield could take care of such tools.

A lot of attacks can be taken care of by shielding it. That's theory. In practice, it doesn't occur that way 100% of the time, unless you're omniscient, or unless your opponent is predictable. Do you see where I am coming from with the idea that frame data is nothing but theory? It looks good on paper, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

P.S. I'm aware of that AT where Samus can fire two missiles in quick sussesion, but it still... well, let's just say I know people like on Ganon, that stuff works wonders...

I'm not sure what you're saying.

It can't be the worst, but it certainly is in the running, especially when you can play patty-cake with it...

I never said Samus' jab was the best. ShadowLink84 upholds the idea that it's the worst, though.

Where's that Youtube video I saw a very long time ago where two Samus' where trading jabs right after another...?

We've all seen it, I'm sure. There's no need to watch it. Funnily, I've done that in Samus dittos before, more than once. However, we weren't trading hits. We were clanking, and I'd eventually stop and land a d-tilt.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sorry, but frame data is nothing more than theory. It's what you make out of it. Reality > theory.

Wait what.
HOW IS FRAME DATA THEORY?

No really, do explain how your experience supercedes fact.
Opinion<Fact

Your opponent not realizing they can slap you with an attack after you jab them does not change the fact that Samus has no reliable setups after a jab.

I'm sorry, but what is "**** enar"? With no hitstun, sure, but it doesn't happen 100% of the time, now does it? I didn't think so.

Samus having no hitstun to her jab, means that she can follow it up, it also means that the opponent can jab her back, tilt her back, aerial her back.

you are trying to reason that the player's behavior supersedes the characters abilities.
Just because your opponent rolls into ike's Fsmash doesnt change the fact that the Fsmash is unreliable.

I'm not following. Care to clarify?

I was explaining the whole priority business concerning your examples.
The reason it clangs is simply because of the ten% rule.

I'm not sure, which is why I said "somewhat" in regard to a large hitbox.

i thought you knew.

You claim that Samus has the worst jab in this game. Care to prove it? This means you must take all thirty-nine (39) characters in this game and prove to me that Samus' jab will be ranked as 39th, being the worst.

its already been prove through frame data.

Samus has a 3 frame jab. The hitstun is non-existant on the move.
So your opponent is completely capable of attacking you on frame 4.

So let us say you do a jab~Dtilt on a grounded opponent. let us say Mario

Samus Mario
Jab:Frame 3 hit: Frame 3
Dtilt:frame 9 Ftilt: Frame 4 (begins)
hit: frame 8

Now if its in the air, the opponent would need to use at worst, a 6 frame move in order to trade hits with you (let us say you Ftilt).

now of course, this doesnt go for all characters, there are characters like Ike who have aerials too slow. So its not as much an issue.

Sonic on the other hand, has around enough hitstun so that the opponent cannot escape it.

Now Samus does have better range, but the range is better slightly,its not like we are comparing he Ftilt to his jab, so the opponent is still in range to hit you (except for moves like rest which have no range)

Inductive reasoning is not something to use in the fact of the frame data.

Every other character even Sonic, has enough hitstun so that they can at least finish their jab combo or enough hitstun that they can stop their jab and shield or dodge.

Now let us say her jab range was to place her outside of the opponents attack range (it doesn't but let us say it did).
The opponent can still dodge, shield, jump etc etc.
So any follows up after her jab are impossible.

In this case, Samus' jab being three frames. A person without the knowledge that Samus' jab lacks hitstun might take the full hit. Someone who is aware that Samus' jab lacks hitstun might shield the jab, but it doesn't mean this person will counter Samus. The same person might shield Samus' jab and then let go of his or her shield and take the d-tilt. And then there are those who might shield both. It doesn't mean that taking both hits won't ever happen. Saying, "Samus' jab is only three frames, and it lacks hitstun, therefore, it won't land" is untrue, since it has happened before and still happens.

That is the result of PLAYER error.
You are baically trying to say that mindgames is a factor. In which case, ic an say the same for Sonic and every other character, including ZSS, who, IIRC, can have the third hit of her jab powershielded.

A lot of attacks can be taken care of by shielding it. That's theory. In practice, it doesn't occur that way 100% of the time, unless you're omniscient, or unless your opponent is predictable. Do you see where I am coming from with the idea that frame data is nothing but theory? It looks good on paper, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Except that does not matter. We are looking at how one character is better than the other.
We are not looking at how the player is making an error and to taking advantage of a characters weakness.

We are not looking at how people react, how they screw up. We look at this characters abilities and what they can do.

You trying to say that samus' jab isnt the worst because of mindgames can be said for every other character.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

he is saying that in some cases, it is character dependant.

We've all seen it, I'm sure. There's no need to watch it. Funnily, I've done that in Samus dittos before, more than once. However, we weren't trading hits. We were clanking, and I'd eventually stop and land a d-tilt.

That doesn't change the fact that she cannot follow up with anything.

Tell me, when you landed the Dtilt what was your opponent trying to do? were they trying to jab you even when they couldnt reach you? Thats player error.

Why are you trying to act as if an error from the player makes up for Samus' flawed jab attack?

 

[Browny]

Im seriously lol'ing IRL at frame data being called nothing but theory.

chaingrab are theory. you heard it here first

 

[da K.I.D.]

you are trying to reason that the player's behavior supersedes the characters abilities.

it does...
10 true statements.

if player ability wasnt a factor nobody would ever beat metaknight

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

it does...
10 true statements.

if player ability wasnt a factor nobody would ever beat metaknight

Tripping says hi lol .

Diddy on Fd may have a chance.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm talking about Missile cancel or something, where Samus can fire one missle right before she lands, and then somehow on landing can fire another missile. I'm sure you being a Samus player you're aware of such a technique.

 

[Crystanium]

it does...
10 true statements.

if player ability wasnt a factor nobody would ever beat metaknight

Thank you. This is what I am talking about. I'm not saying frame data is wrong, so don't think that because I say it's "theory," that I think it's wrong. What I am saying is that if we put frame data alongside of actual gameplay, human error is going to occur, since errare humanum est. What ShadowLink84 is doing is taking frame data and slapping it down as if it was actually going to work that way in an actual match. I don't need to prove that this isn't true.

The funny thing is, I've performed jab to d-tilt with Samus on my brother more than once. He's aware of that attack. He's shielded it before, and tonight when we were brawling, I landed it on him more than once. Errare humanum est. This is what I mean by it being theory, because otherwise, da K.I.D. is right. No one would be able to beat Meta Knight. Except maybe Diddy Kong, like SSJ5Goku8932 said.

I'm talking about Missile cancel or something, where Samus can fire one missle right before she lands, and then somehow on landing can fire another missile. I'm sure you being a Samus player you're aware of such a technique.

I am.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Forget it, I am too tired I'll let kinzer handle it since he does it more neatly.

 

[Kinzer]

Aww Shadow, you disappoint me. I was hoping you would come up with a nice long summary of why they are wrong.

I suppose I'll have to do it myself if I want something.

*Ahem*

You cannot measure certain things, such as mindgames and messups, because that's player dependent. We can't say who is playing a character like say Meta Knight, because it can be anybody. Your annoying 9 year old nephew, your dying grandmother, or maybe a professional gamer who can actually keep his/her mistakes to a minimum if not non-existant, and we could also argue how much mindgames are being applied... No! That doesn't work because we don't know how much to apply, so we just don't.

If that were the case, then I suppose we would have to add an equal amount of said player habits to both characters, which gets us nowhere because everybody has a different thought on what are mess-ups and mindgames, not to mention in certain matchups one character can be allowed a huge window of opportunity whereas antoher character who is heavily disadvantaged has to play perfectly in hopes of even having a chance of winning. Even further disproving the point is that if we were to equally distribute the stuff, then we would be in the same spot if we didn't apply them at all, or perhaps the results skewed to unsatisfactory met requirements.

Maybe if this were a perfect game where all the characters were evenyl balanced on all stages this would work and thus defeat the purpose of Smashboards great minds of having to study the game.Too bad we live in a thing called reality though isn't it, where some peoples' favorite characters get screwed over by design flaws and the like?

You cannot deny what is reality, that is for example, Sonic versus Marth. Yeah sure Sonic has his things to work with, but over all Marth has things to counter Sonic, plus having other tools in his arsenal to which Sonic has no answer to. If we're assuming both characters are being played to maximum potency, then Sonic will be losing matches majority of the time. Now it would be different, if both players where not equally skilled, then of course the number of win/loses can change, but it's not fair to a certain party if you were to add things like thoery, which... the other party can just use too. This gets us nowhere!

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would make a nice long summary, but I am trying to study for organic chemistry at the same time =\

 

[RenegadeRaven]

lol, Kinzer's sooo cooool.

---

I'd like to seriously thank the Samus mains for even coming here to discuss this with us. I know you guys could give 2 ****s about who's better, but the fact some of you came anyway is really cool of you.

 

[Crystanium]

Never mind this. I'm just derailing the thread. I'm done.

 

[Chis]

Next up, Ness. Is Sonic better then Ness? Does anyone mind getting a few Ness mains in here? And remember this isn't a match up thread :/

 

[Levitas]

Isn't that primarily a function of how sonic does against high/top tiers?

But it's entirely possible that he is, but not on a level worth noting.

 

[Kinzer]

Say what?

I just wanna see peoples' opinions on this before I add my two cents, I'm not exactly sure how Sonic compares...

 

[Neon Ness]

Sonic is, er, less exploitable of a character, for lack of a better term. He doesn't have a ridiculous amount of empty frames after getting released from a grab in which most of the cast can punish hard. This is one of the biggest flaws in Ness/Lucas' design. Another thing is that Sonic can get back on stage without any real trouble. Ness has one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game. Yes, we can do what we can to avoid it like trying nair or something, but only to an extent. If a tournament level gets Ness offstage, that's pretty much a lost stock if they've a mind to chase him...

Sonic also has less terror matchups, as far as I know. Like, I don't recall him having any fights comparable to Ness' Marth/Mr. Game & Watch.

These things make Sonic a character slightly more suitable for tournament levels of play, without relying on a secondary.

 

[MalcolmM]

What he said.

Sonic does better against better characters.

 

[JayBee]

especially the matchup part. Sonic's abiltiy to maunver around his opponent and the stage can offset the opponents high priority moves due the difficulty of landing those moves. though ness has better moves in the air, he has to fight close, and though sonic does too, Ness is far less mobile and easier to space against. that grab realease thing really messes that up, that is the dumbest thing sakurai can let happen. Ness recovery is so gimpable that most characters can just run into the PKT to kill him, and its not hard to do.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ness kills earlier. His B-throw is hellish. But so is his small grab range. Also Ness can reflect/absorb (some) slow projectiles. PK traps are decently good. He has a very strong Meteor Smash and he can just kill. That's my point, he can kill.

 

[MalcolmM]

that grab realease thing really messes that up, that is the dumbest thing sakurai can let happen.

Wario would like to have a word with you.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wario doesn't get grabbed, at least he fixed that nice. If you get grabbed as Wario, you deserve to be grabbed, or your shield is broken.

 

[AvariceX]

While I agree that Sonic is better than the tier list reflects I think this is a pretty flawed way of trying to show it. The reason for this is that people familiar with Ness will tell you that Ness is also better than the tier list reflects, so it's hard to justify moving Sonic above Ness just to reach the characters above him who he might actually be better than (I'm not trying to insinuate that Ness is better than Sonic, just that there are worse characters than both of them who are above them in the tier list).

My brother mains Sonic so I'm pretty familiar with his issues...We both play very under-appreciated characters.

<3

 

[Kinzer]

Uhm...

Oh, how should I say this...

I'll just put it down as I go along.

It may be a somewhat flawed system... When you look at it as a whole... Now you could say both could rise/stay in the same spot/drop, but perhaps it would seem more fitting if we just compare the characters to each other, and not with everybody else. This way it would give an idea of which character should be above who, or if they're both equally (bad), give them the same spot like they did Lucario/Olimar.

I suppose with that logic, we should and maybe we will have to go over some of the characters who are ATM lower than Sonic is, just to discuss the potential reasoning to see if the False SBR had any justification to put them so much lower than Sonic, and whether they really do or don't deserve to be below him (however I think other than PT and possibly Yoshi, there's no dispute on who should be less than or equal to Sonic... That's Link/Jigglypuff/Ganon/C.Falcon BTW).

Back to Ness.

I have seen next to no dispute to "Sonic > Ness", and perhaps with good reason. I've already said it, both have their ups and downs, but it seems that for Sonic, his downsides are either not as exploitable as Ness', or his upsides are that of a much greater level than Ness'... And maybe even both.

Let me start with what I know Ness has over Sonic in which in Sonic's field is either non-existant or the same but to a lesser degree. Ness is not so lacking in kill power as Sonic, what with his B-Throw/Dair/Bair and all. Those are the first that come into mind BTW, I am not sure if Ness has anymore that are as threatening or as commonly used, I am almost sure more can be added from other people, but moving on... Ness has supposedly a better aerial game.

I don't want to get into much detail but I'll just go with the bandwagon. I've heard some nice things about his Fair, but AFAIK it's uses are a spacing tool and/or done from a rising 2nd jump for a(nother?) method of protection. Dair from what I hear is a pretty d*** good spike, the strongest at 0% for sure... whereas Sonic has no true spike. To make matters worse Ness can use his Dair quite a bit, I've seen it ACed, and from what I see it is pretty disjointed. Nair makes a better GTFO move than what we have for sure, with decent priority, damage, lasts for a good while... wonder if it could kill people too... Then we have Bair than has that nice sweetspot. I'm not sure about Uair but if it's like Yoshi's Uair, but it does okay for what it's meant to do anyway...

Here's how I see it:

Look at it as Ness/Sonic

Bair - slightly< (At least ours is much more frequently used and can still carry out more tasks, whereas with Ness', it's just like Zelda's Lightning kick where it's a great attack if it lands, but not to be relied on)

Uair - <x over 9,000 <3 (our Uair is just too good, hitting people on it's sides, very nice overhead spacing tool, and can still kill)

Fair - slighty >than or equal to (Yes, ours deals damage, but his Fair is a better spacing tool, and let's face it our Fair only kills from offstage or at high %ages. Maybe ours is better for gimping given it's normal attributes and Sonic's characteristics to be able to use it, but that's about it)

Dair - probably >than or equal to (Both have their disjoints sure, but I suppose that both have their times of use in certain spots, some cases more similar... i just gave it to Ness slightly 'cause again psuedo/stage-spikes are lulzy whereas Ness' Dair is all srs bzNess (lol))

Nair - > (ours can gimp, but it does no good when it forces us to rely on other stuff such as Spring to get out of Combos, which after you get launched from the Spring you risk being put in an even more punishable situation. Ness has little to lose when using his)

...So much for not trying to go into detail.

What do both have...?

I suppose the element of surprise, but then again so does every other underrated character... however Sonic has more opprtunity for this but forget about it. Mindgames; both have that. Coincidentally it's in the B-Buttons. A pretty good defensive game. A fetish for Steak. Some BA taunts.

Now looking at what Sonic has over Ness is... I am sad to say... a lot... and am trying to be as unbiased as possible...

Let's face it, Ness has some pretty bad matchups. At least when our worst matchup is Marth, a grab doesn't get followed-up into some very deep s***. Now just how unwinnable are Ness' matchups is not really known to me, but I have a pretty good idea that we have it better or at worst the same. Bad design, poor boy can't be off the stage for too much or too long... which is probably why matchups like Meta Knight must be a real nightmare when he outclasses you in most everything. I'll admit that Sonic isn't too much better off as a MK "counter", it isn't -1 stock right off the bat (no pun intended). It's not too hard to grab Ness whereas getting a grab on this hedgehog is less frequent either, and even if you don't go for the CG Ness still has more GR frames for more opportunity for punishment out of a break.

I'd add more but for some reason my browser is eating up letters if I try and fix anymore mistakes, so it just looks like an even bigger mess than whe I tried to fix it up teh first time so... just bare with me here, I'll edit this with more.

Is it still chewing up letters...?

Okay not it isn't, so where was I...?

Well, now this should be obvious, but Sonic has a much better offensive game and can open up more opportunities for the opponent to mess up on than Ness, not to mention Sonic has more options to use as punishers... or at least more than Ness (a broken shield -> PK Pulse (what's his neutral B called again?) does not count as heavy punishment)

Even more obvious is recovery options and offstage game... seriously, no matter how much you try to argue/sugarcoat it, it's just sad...

How about standard attacks/ground game? Well for sure Sonic cover much more ground than Ness could, even with the PKT projectile. I hope I won't have to explain why, but if you just look at them, you should be able to see for yourself...

At least Ness' DA is awesome.

^ ^
l
___
/
_ /

Eh Well I make bad smiley's, but did I leave anything out?

 

[4nace]

I think Sonic is actually placed fairly well on the tier list. I would hate to see him rise out of low tier because he's very evenly matched with the characters around him.

Plus, why does the tier list even matter to people on the Sonic Boards? I know regardless of his spot on the tier list, i will continue to play him and learn new techs and strategies. Most of you would play Sonic in tournaments even if the SBR placed him dead last on the list. He'll still function the same exact way, no matter how he is ranked by players. Do you think him going up a few spots is going get new people to try Sonic and advance his game more? Or is it because you want your work on his metagame to be recognized?

Personally, I don't choose my character based off the tier list, I only use it to complain when I lose!

 

[Kinzer]

Here's my reasoning for even doing this.

"If you're going to do something, you better get it right or don't bother doing it at all."

I couldn't give two s***s (maybe) where Sonic is on the tier-list, but I like to aim for accuracy.

Edit: Oh yeah that's right, since we're done clowning around, I can go back to my old set-up.

 

[_clinton]

Back to Ness.

I have seen next to no dispute to "Sonic > Ness", and perhaps with good reason. I've already said it, both have their ups and downs, but it seems that for Sonic, his downsides are either not as exploitable as Ness', or his upsides are that of a much greater level than Ness'... And maybe even both.

Ness' downsides being so called exploitable is just part of his learning curve overall...

A. His recovery for one thing has a lot of room to plan out...he has plenty of tools at his use to make sure someone doesn't eat his thunder most of the time...what I'm saying is...if you get gimped...it is your own fault...

B. The issue with grab releases is IMO the same thing with Wario...Ness and Lucas are way too mobile in the air to get grabbed IMO...

Let me start with what I know Ness has over Sonic in which in Sonic's field is either non-existant or the same but to a lesser degree. Ness is not so lacking in kill power as Sonic, what with his B-Throw/Dair/Bair and all. Those are the first that come into mind BTW, I am not sure if Ness has anymore that are as threatening or as commonly used, I am almost sure more can be added from other people, but moving on... Ness has supposedly a better aerial game.

As far as kill moves go...
All of Ness' air moves can be used to kill/get a gimp kill...with that in mind it comes as no shock to me when people forget that Ness is packing a baseball bat that is a little bit more than 30% stronger or so than his Bthrow...and end up Air dodging right into it

Ness also has set ups to his kill moves as well...but that is another issue...

Sad to say...ATM I don't have time to go into this wall of text...so for now...have a nice day...

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Ness' downsides being so called exploitable is just part of his learning curve overall...

lololololol

Quote of the day.

From now on all weaknesses mentioned in this thread must be referred to as "Learning Curves" I expect full participation people.

A. His recovery for one thing has a lot of room to plan out...he has plenty of tools at his use to make sure someone doesn't eat his thunder most of the time...what I'm saying is...if you get gimped...it is your own fault...

Care to elaborate? What tools does he have? How do you use them? How do they help?

B. The issue with grab releases is IMO the same thing with Wario...Ness and Lucas are way too mobile in the air to get grabbed IMO...

A good 40% or so of the reason Wario is hard to grab is his Bite. Ness and Lucas aren't easy to grab but a god opponent who's really going for it and has a character with a good grab is going to be able to land several grabs in a game. I don't think it's fair to say Ness isn't going to get grabbed at least a couple of times a game.

As far as kill moves go...
All of Ness' air moves can be used to kill/get a gimp kill...with that in mind it comes as no shock to me when people forget that Ness is packing a baseball bat that is a little bit more than 30% stronger or so than his Bthrow...and end up Air dodging right into it

Ness also has set ups to his kill moves as well...but that is another issue...

Yes Ness asolutely craps on sonic in the killing field nobody can deny it. As well as the difficult to land monster kill moves he also has some decent ones that are a lot easier to land.

Ness also has set ups to his kill moves as well...but that is another issue...

Which are?

 

[Tenki]

While I agree that Sonic is better than the tier list reflects I think this is a pretty flawed way of trying to show it. The reason for this is that people familiar with Ness will tell you that Ness is also better than the tier list reflects, so it's hard to justify moving Sonic above Ness just to reach the characters above him who he might actually be better than (I'm not trying to insinuate that Ness is better than Sonic, just that there are worse characters than both of them who are above them in the tier list).

I second this notion.

I still think we should have started from and 'solidified' whether Sonic is actually better than the characters below him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

shut up.

nobody asked you