Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Kinzer]

What did I do?

*scratches head.*

Humm... Anyway... err...

I guess the disputes were solved... maybe... even a little remedy to calm it down somewhat...?

 

[Chis]

They weren't rude >_>

Anyways, Sonic has been placing constantly better then Ness in tourneys iirc.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

What did I do?

*scratches head.*

Humm... Anyway... err...

I guess the disputes were solved... maybe... even a little remedy to calm it down somewhat...?

Don't kid yourself. You were almost as much of a prick to him as I was.

 

[Tenki]

Actually, you're the only one I don't find rude. Anyway, I'm out of your guys' hair.

I didn't really say anything much in this thread in the first place - my knowledge of other characters' metagames has really fallen behind so I don't really have much of a say in this anymore.


edit:
LOL YESSS @ missing the adjacent post - this hasn't happened to me in months lol

 

[Kinzer]

...I really hate it when I am apparently accused of something I do not remember doing...

But I'm just rambling by this point and I should just stop.

 

[Chis]

Yeah Kinzer, don't let it bother you.

Anyways, yeah, not a match up thread :o

 

[_clinton]

no matter how good the ness is, he has to deal with:

Oh great...here it comes again...

1: the fact that his tiltls and jabs can be easily out ranged

He lures a good chuck of the cast to him...and his ground game is at least 3/5 IMO as well...

2: Ness can get beasted from below because the only options are airdodge and Dair, the second option is usually baited and can be done consistantly.

PK Thunder=swiss army knife projectile
Nair and Fair are ok at the whole below thing as well

3: The fear of being shield grabbed from moves like fair, which he uses often.

Already talked about...

4: the fear of being ***** from a single grab, due to the extra lag he gets from a grab release

You mean the 10 extra ground frames that can be nulled by his actually good air release/EIDI in case of any "child **** attempts" from pretty boy guys/dragons?

Of course its not like a grab from Ness is no big deal...

5: The amount of harassment he has to avoid due to his less than average recovery ability.

Stat. I'd say it is 3/5...so it isn't below average IMO at all...but whatever...

This also gets dealt with by the fact that Ness himself has a great gimp game...

 

[Boxob.]

Hmm...

Well ness sucks.

Am I doing it right?

 

[Browny]

you cant just rate his abilities 3/5 randomly. you have to compare it to the entire cast you know. If snake/DK have a 5/5 ground game, id say jiggs represents the 1/5 end of that spectrum, could you honestly say that ness' ground game is better or equal to 60% of the cast? tbh id put it between 1/5 and 2/5 in that respect. I use ness too, mained him in 64/melee and have used him in brawl tourneys im not basing this off theory, but i really cant name many characters at all who id say have a worse ground game.

 

[MrEh]

You mean the 10 extra ground frames that can be nulled by his actually good air release/EIDI in case of any "child **** attempts" from pretty boy guys/dragons?

I assume you're referring to Marth and Bowser.

Bowser has 20 extra frames after a grab release. That is double the amount that any other character gets. And no, you can't nullify Bowser's grab releases with EIDI (does that BS even exist?) and jump releases. It may work on other characters, but not Bowser. EIDI won't save you from a regrab, tilt or Bowser Bomb. 20 frames is a laughably easy window of opportunity. And if you jump out? You get Klawed.

This is not an "attempt" at ****. This is successful ****.

 

[_clinton]

you cant just rate his abilities 3/5 randomly. you have to compare it to the entire cast you know. If snake/DK have a 5/5 ground game, id say jiggs represents the 1/5 end of that spectrum, could you honestly say that ness' ground game is better or equal to 60% of the cast? tbh id put it between 1/5 and 2/5 in that respect. I use ness too, mained him in 64/melee and have used him in brawl tourneys im not basing this off theory, but i really cant name many characters at all who id say have a better ground game.

I have compared his stats to the rest of the cast...his recovery is 3/5 material...it'd be 4/5 if it wasn't 50% gimpable...His ground game is 3/5...he has plenty of parts about his ground game that don't suck...

His jab is nothing special other than a get off of me move that is 3 frames (so it isn't the slowest...but it isn't a nice 2 or 1 frame jab either)...and it does 9% or so total...there is a slight pause between the 2nd and 3rd hits that can make people DI out...he has a jab lock...and the 1st and 2nd hits both help him set up for a grab...so overall it isn't that bad

His dash attack is pretty neat at least...for one thing the 1st hit comes out in above average time...but the 3rd hit has a nice pop them into the air effect...to bad it isn't a 100% combo...however I like his dash attack...

His Ftilt...sucks overall...7 frames to start up...very short range (D3's standing grab out reaches it) and it has cool down time...it doesn't even have that much kill power (granted the tilted up version has a tiny bit)...it has a ton of cool down time as well...the only thing that is good about it is that it chains from Fair pretty well...but the jab chains from Fair much better and even gives you a chance at a grab...this move is one you don't want to use that much (if at all)...even if it does clash with a good amount of smash attacks out there...

His Utilt...pretty much makes him a ***** to approach from the air...because it is 5 frames of fury that has an ok cool down time...and even if you don't use it as an OoS counter move...it pretty much beats/trades with every air attack as well...

His Dtilt...you have a wicked lock with it...and it does lead into some kill options...and if done on a shield you pretty much make them back away overall...to bad that range sucks so much...

His Fsmash...with Ness having 5 great air attacks that can all either gimp/kill in some way...you'd be shocked out how overlooked this chuck of wood is...oh and overall it has above average range (for Ness)...oh and the 1.5x projectile reflector and 2x speed is ok as well to a point...its to bad it comes out on frame 21 which is below average in speed...plus a miss may get you countered...overall it is underrated...

His Dsmash...9 frames for the 1st hit...their is a sweet spot on this move that has almost perfect horizontal knock back...however the charge hit doesn't always work in your favor...the person may for the most part avoid the 13% sweet spot and your stuck with an opening...hell if they block it you are stuck with an opening...still...this move comes out on Ness' back...and it does a pretty good job at punishing any moving defense move...

His Usmash...8 frames for the 1st hit...again on the issue of being left open in either a wiff with the sweet (although not as much of an issue compared with the Dsmash) or them blocking...still overall it is ok...I for one am not a fan of the yoyo and overall I'm not the only one (which pretty much means it is a hit and miss for different Ness styles) still its pretty good if your foe has a good dodge game...oh and his Dash cancel is nice overall as well...

Ness has a good shield (it can avoid being pierced by G&W's full bloody turtle...hell Marth's full DB as well), an ok side step...I don't care about his roll...although it isn't the worse thing out there...

His duck can get him under a large % of attacks in this game (ROB's unangled Fsmash...Ganondorf's Wizard Kick/10 other moves he has...Falco's reflector) plus he himself isn't a large target and he is of course pretty mobile with his air movements...

His movement speed isn't anything special though in order to make up for how much control you have with his mobility...air and ground are both just C rank...although I should go check the ground part...

His standing grab is just normal in speed...but he is lacking in range of course...however his pivot and dash grabs are both good enough (well the dash grab is...17 frames of down time...the fastest in the game...with 19 coming in next)

Haha, Bowser is different from Marth. Marth gets 10 frames, Bowser gets 20. And no, you can't nullify Bowser's grab releases with gimmicky tricks. It may work on other characters, but not Bowser.

EIDI won't save you from a regrab or a tilt. And if you jump out? You get Klawed.

I wasn't talking about Bowser...I was talking about Charizard...

And Bowser has good grab release stuff in general...

Anyway...I guess I could talk more about his recovery...even though I have already...but I don't really care right now

 

[MrEh]

I wasn't talking about Bowser...I was talking about Charizard...

Haha, my bad.

You'd be surprised at how often I hear Ness/Lucas players saying that "Bowser's grab releases don't **** us!" So that's why I assumed you were talking about Bowser. ^^

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ness can zone people much better than sonic can, and you're guaranteed not to live past 140 on a decent ness due to bthrow ridiculousness

argue nesses ground game all you want, most nesses are airborne 80% of the time and grabbing/using their situational ground game correctly for the rest of it.

ness gets grab release ***** by 3 characters (bowser he can air break against, vicegrip gets out of my attempted bowser **** every time), the dk infinite is banned at most tournaments, so that leaves marth and PT, marth is the only one matchup where he really has to worry.

Also, mr. eh, you of all people should know that bowsers grab release hurts sonic a lot worse than it hurts ness. CG to offstage fair for auto death at like 85/90.

tl;dr sonic is not better than ness, but honestly ness should be higher up than he is right now.

you should start with lucas, lucas is much worse than ness.

 

[MrEh]

Also, mr. eh, you of all people should know that bowsers grab release hurts sonic a lot worse than it hurts ness. CG to offstage fair for auto death at like 85/90.

Haha, of course I know that. Sonic's animation is so easily exploitable. I love it. ^^

Too bad Sonic is hard to grab.

tl;dr sonic is not better than ness, but honestly ness should be higher up than he is right now.

Agreed.

you should start with lucas, lucas is much worse than ness.

Agreed.

 

[Chis]

Let me take this time once again to say Sonic has always been ahead of Ness in tourney results. But SOMEONE had to delete all the information in their thread on April fools.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ that would be because nobody plays ness and I see several sonics in tournament (I help run small weeklies and we usually get 3 sonics per tournament. the average turn out is 14 people, it makes the first hour of each tournament sooooo long, because there matches take forever. Luckily they go 0-2 each time)

also, this thread belongs to the bowser boards now, either reference italian spiderman or kindly get out

 

[Chis]

Yeah, that assumption of billions of Sonics entering tourneys have been quashed many times before, so I wont bother. And don't spam this thread.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I'm not assuming that they enter

I know they enter, I see them every week

but nice try on the card board cut out reply, that might have worked if I didn't actually go to tournaments and see the same sonics every time

 

[Chis]

Because one persons experience represents the WHOLE of the tourney scene all around the world right? Don't try and be clever.

 

[Kinzer]

It's late, and I don't really feel like reading some of these WoTs thoroughly, but I thought before I went to bed I would point out these few nitpicks of mine, yes?

ness can zone people much better than sonic can, and you're guaranteed not to live past 140 on a decent ness due to bthrow ridiculousness

Well anybody can do that, what makes Ness such a special case? LOL.

However I love how you say it like this, and then in your next post you proceed to:

^ that would be because nobody plays ness and I see several sonics in tournament (I help run small weeklies and we usually get 3 sonics per tournament. the average turn out is 14 people, it makes the first hour of each tournament sooooo long, because there matches take forever. Luckily they go 0-2 each time)

Point out the scrubby Sonics. Way to go.

I bet not any of those three scrubs are known by anybody except their mothers, and of course randoms are going to suck major d***.

Let me see what kind of analogy I could use for this...

You know what screw it I think you get the point that any newbie can make a character look bad, but why are you going to be biased and not compare scrubby players to other scrubby players playing different characters (who suck, don't deny it)?

Okay Nighty night, I can't wait to see how this turns out when I'm a bit more alert! ^_^

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ whether or not they were scrubby doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more of them than there are ness players

 

[Chis]

Show me the numbers then.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok

attendees at ventura weekly 6, total attendees: 13

Vin (sonic)
carlos (sonic)
funchs friend whos name i forget (sonic/pika)

to a lesser extent oscar as well, though he mains marth/bowser and uses sonic as a distant 3rd

I'm not sure how you can doubt the people who show up at my weeklies, I'm pretty sure I see them every week. as for ness mains, one of the local falcos uses him as a 3rd, thats it, there aren't any ness mains, even the people on the ness boards only use him as a secondary.

 

[Chis]

No, the numbers of Sonic going to all tourney. Not individual cases.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Whether or not they outnumber the Nesses is irrelevant. They don't place. They don't contribute to placing lists. They were scrubs. They were going to lose regardless of who they use. I assume if they switch to DK/Bowser and come in the last places we can assume that DK/Bowser are bad characters? Don't use people who play at the level of some comps to determine a characters worth. For example Malcolm has taken a round off of M2K. Espy consistently places high with Sonic in a region with players like Sethlon and Hylian. What has a Ness done on that level?

 

[JayBee]

Oh great...here it comes again...

lol is it that bad?

He lures a good chuck of the cast to him...and his ground game is at least 3/5 IMO as well...

not really; we kinda just said that his long range game isn't that great and moves like PK fire on average are unsafe as a "ima make you come to me while I'm safe" move right?

PK Thunder=swiss army knife projectile
Nair and Fair are ok at the whole below thing as well

Hmm... im not sure about, because a lot of characters have pretty disjointed (aka very good upairs) Sonic, marth, Rob, Meta, DDD... I mean, those moves won't help that much if they are juggling him from below Ness.

You mean the 10 extra ground frames that can be nulled by his actually good air release/EIDI in case of any "child **** attempts" from pretty boy guys/dragons?

okay I will give you that.

Of course its not like a grab from Ness is no big deal...

Yeah, Ness's grabs are good, but his grab range is tiny, and you know it. plus it become a priority to avoid them at over 100 percent so it gets even harder to land them.

This also gets dealt with by the fact that Ness himself has a great gimp game...

no... just because he has a "good" gimp game doesn't make the fact that he can have a very hard time recovering disappear from brawl. as a matter of fact, the latter statement is more obvious than his gimp game, its one of the first things you notice as Ness, so...

 

[da K.I.D.]

id like to take the time to point that sonic has a GR chaingrab on ness.

I realise that this isnt a matchup thread but somebody in here stated all the characters that wreck ness out of GRs and forgot to mention sonic. MK also has a similar chaingrab, which is even worse because not only can he CG you to the edge of the stage like sonic can, but he can finish it off with kill move (down smash ftw!) some thing that sonic cant do.

Knowing snakes range, he probably has a gauranteed f tilt, but they dont care cause they would rather just tech chase with down throw anyway.

so, i am now of the belief that ness mainers here are trying to down play the GR gayness that happens to him, when the fact is that its a major detriment to his game that many characters, good and bad can take advantage of. Which is one (not the only) factor that leads me to believe that sonic is a better character

also, I would liek to hear about good ness players. because as far as i know Ref is the best ness player, and Malcolm has 2-0d him in tournment, but like I said, this isnt a matchup discussion. but at the same time, I have yet to see a tournament where Ref has out placed malcolm

therefore, I conclude (for now) that in a high level tournament envioronment, Sonic is a better character than ness

 

[JayBee]

yeah, its really looking that way. yeah you can air release, but that's still a very big problem.
Unless i was wrong about everything I just posted, Sonic is clearly better than Ness as a character. i know that there are good players for him that make him look sweet, but still...

 

[da K.I.D.]

they make him look good in videos, but not in the tournament standings.

 

[aeghrur]

In case it hasn't been stated, let's not forget that I do believe:

A. Sonic will most likely live longer due to being heavier(right?) and having a better momentum cancel.
and
B. Sonic has more mindgame potential than Ness.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Sonic will most likely live longer due to being heavier(right?)

A teeny bit.

Sonic
Luigi
Pit
Ness

Sonic only dies roughly 3-5 perecent later then Ness on most attacks. Not much in it. But then factor in momentum cancelling and recovery.

 

[Kinzer]

Either more or the same, not really the same case as Sonic's mindgames over Mr. G&W's, who as we all know, is a very boring character who is literally two-dimensional.

It's just his GD basic game that is so good that keeps him anywhere.

 

[Neon Ness]

even the people on the ness boards only use him as a secondary.

Wait, that's... wrong. Like, completely.

I'm also not sure I buy the "Sonic has more mindgame potential" statement. Mindgame potential is a rather vague term, and not some quantifiable substance that can be measured so easily. I don't think it's really all that important anyhow, though...

But yeah, for now Sonic will overall place better in the tournament environment, without a doubt. I think most people will and have agreed on this point. Ness' flaws in Brawl are rather enormous, and as far as human potential goes I don't really see another Simna like figure arising in this era because of them.

I'd be happy if some Ness prodigy appeared in the scene at some point and proved that statement wrong, but I just don't believe it will happen.

 

[_clinton]

Haha, my bad.

You'd be surprised at how often I hear Ness/Lucas players saying that "Bowser's grab releases don't **** us!" So that's why I assumed you were talking about Bowser. ^^

Its ok...no harm done

ness can zone people much better than sonic can, and you're guaranteed not to live past 140 on a decent ness due to bthrow ridiculousness

Thank you...

argue nesses ground game all you want, most nesses are airborne 80% of the time and grabbing/using their situational ground game correctly for the rest of it.

True...but I still don't see Ness' ground game as being that bad...still...its like saying JP's ground game is bad...so what JP is in the air 90% of the time...

ness gets grab release ***** by 3 characters (bowser he can air break against, vicegrip gets out of my attempted bowser **** every time), the dk infinite is banned at most tournaments, so that leaves marth and PT, marth is the only one matchup where he really has to worry.

EIDI again gets Ness out of the main issue with GR...Marth can't infinite Ness because of it...

you should start with lucas, lucas is much worse than ness.

I like Lucas...

Haha, of course I know that. Sonic's animation is so easily exploitable. I love it. ^^

Too bad Sonic is hard to grab.

Well...its not like Ness is easy to grab as well...

Let me take this time once again to say Sonic has always been ahead of Ness in tourney results. But SOMEONE had to delete all the information in their thread on April fools.

Well to be fair...Sonic has a larger fan base than Ness does...

not really; we kinda just said that his long range game isn't that great and moves like PK fire on average are unsafe as a "ima make you come to me while I'm safe" move right?

My point was that he forces most of the cast to come to him...

Hmm... im not sure about, because a lot of characters have pretty disjointed (aka very good upairs) Sonic, marth, Rob, Meta, DDD... I mean, those moves won't help that much if they are juggling him from below Ness.

I like to air dodge

Yeah, Ness's grabs are good, but his grab range is tiny, and you know it. plus it become a priority to avoid them at over 100 percent so it gets even harder to land them.

His grab range on his standing grab is bad...mkay get it right...his dash grab and pivot grab aren't as much of an issue on range...

no... just because he has a "good" gimp game doesn't make the fact that he can have a very hard time recovering disappear from brawl. as a matter of fact, the latter statement is more obvious than his gimp game, its one of the first things you notice as Ness, so...

Still pointing out that Ness' recovery is 3/5 and the down sides are very easy to work around and get over...

id like to take the time to point that sonic has a GR chaingrab on ness.

I wonder how much EIDI affects the use of that? As well as MK's...granted MK will Dsmash you to end it...but still...

so, i am now of the belief that ness mainers here are trying to down play the GR gayness that happens to him, when the fact is that its a major detriment to his game that many characters, good and bad can take advantage of. Which is one (not the only) factor that leads me to believe that sonic is a better character

Fun fact...the issues Ness has with GR aren't as great as certain other characters have...in fact the bit about EIDI pretty much made it very low as far as deals go...

also, I would liek to hear about good ness players. because as far as i know Ref is the best ness player, and Malcolm has 2-0d him in tournment, but like I said, this isnt a matchup discussion. but at the same time, I have yet to see a tournament where Ref has out placed malcolm

I wonder how many Sonic's Ref has fought?

A teeny bit.

Sonic
Luigi
Pit
Ness

Sonic only dies roughly 3-5 perecent later then Ness on most attacks. Not much in it. But then factor in momentum cancelling and recovery.

I wonder how much MC helps Sonic live more? While G&W has a clear difference...I really have to wonder about Sonic's...

 

[da K.I.D.]

I hope this doesnt sound like im attacking you

EIDI again gets Ness out of the main issue with GR...Marth can't infinite Ness because of it...

he still eats a tipper smash every time, this is what i mean when i say down playing the issue, sure he doesnt get infinited but eating a tipper smash every time you get grabbed is still a big deal.

Well...its not like Ness is easy to grab as well...

with his ground speed and all around mobility, i would have to think that sonic is harder to grab, but ness is very small and covers himself with hitboxes well.

Well to be fair...Sonic has a larger fan base than Ness does...

i thought we already established that that doesnt matter, because we dont care about scrubby fanboys, we only care about the guys at the high levels posting tourney results

Still pointing out that Ness' recovery is 3/5 and the down sides are very easy to work around and get over...

Still pointing out that sonics is probably a 5/5 and is far and away much better than ness's. it doesnt really require "working around and getting over"

I wonder how much EIDI affects the use of that? As well as MK's...granted MK will Dsmash you to end it...but still...

100% inescapable CG all the way to the edge of the stage

Fun fact...the issues Ness has with GR aren't as great as certain other characters have...in fact the bit about EIDI pretty much made it very low as far as deals go...

We arent really talking about other characters like that, this is supposed to be comparing sonic and ness. And I have to say that i dont that sonic has any kind of debilitating weakness that affects games as much as GR shenanigans on ness

I wonder how many Sonic's Ref has fought?

I can address this in 2 very different ways. I cant decide, so ill just do both.
1. I wonder how many ness's malcolm has played... match experience johns go both ways son. especially when dealing with ness, seeing how i get the feeling that there are like no ness players anywhere from what you guys say
2. How can you say that ref might not have matchup experience when you JUST said:

Well to be fair...Sonic has a larger fan base than Ness does...

that seems like you think there are sonics everywhere EXCEPT in refs area, which is also incorrect since if ref is in the NYC/NJ area I can name 6-8 different skilled sonic mains in that area of the top of my head. Theres more sonics in the AN than any other region, if theres any character he should have match experience against, its sonic.
Malcolm,
Shadowlink84,
NapiLopez
Blue
Kai
MarKOX
Wes

I wonder how much MC helps Sonic live more? While G&W has a clear difference...I really have to wonder about Sonic's...

as far as momentum canceling goes, sonics is legit the 3rd/4th best in the game

 

[infomon]

EIDI doesn't exist.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201575&page=11

 

[_clinton]

he still eats a tipper smash every time, this is what i mean when i say down playing the issue, sure he doesnt get infinited but eating a tipper smash every time you get grabbed is still a big deal.

He eats a tipped Dsmash actually...not the 80% death Fsmash...the rate pretty much says...grab=death for either one at somewhat high %...that is all it really is...

with his ground speed and all around mobility, i would have to think that sonic is harder to grab, but ness is very small and covers himself with hitboxes well.

Well Ness has good mobility as well...

i thought we already established that that doesnt matter, because we dont care about scrubby fanboys, we only care about the guys at the high levels posting tourney results

I was just pointing out my thoughts on why number of Sonic players being high and Ness players being low might be because of the fan base...my point is...chances are with more Sonic's out there...of course there would be more Sonic's showing up as good...

Still pointing out that sonics is probably a 5/5 and is far and away much better than ness's. it doesnt really require "working around and getting over"

You miss my point again...I'm aware that Sonic's is better...but I'm saying Ness' isn't that bad...

We arent really talking about other characters like that, this is supposed to be comparing sonic and ness. And I have to say that i dont that sonic has any kind of debilitating weakness that affects games as much as GR shenanigans on ness

We are comparing Sonic and Ness but we happen to be talking about the whole cast as well with that talk...

And again on the whole GR shenanigans being an overblown issue...most of the characters really don't get much extra with it than what they already had with the match up...

I can address this in 2 very different ways. I cant decide, so ill just do both.
1. I wonder how many ness's malcolm has played... match experience johns go both ways son. especially when dealing with ness, seeing how i get the feeling that there are like no ness players anywhere from what you guys say
2. How can you say that ref might not have matchup experience when you JUST said:

that seems like you think there are sonics everywhere EXCEPT in refs area, which is also incorrect since if ref is in the NYC/NJ area I can name 6-8 different skilled sonic mains in that area of the top of my head. Theres more sonics in the AN than any other region, if theres any character he should have match experience against, its sonic.
Malcolm,
Shadowlink84,
NapiLopez
Blue
Kai
MarKOX
Wes

Ok...let me say it a different way then...why does someone who shows himself as good on the latter end up getting crucified if they end up with bad matches? Sense when do people play the same each day?

Also...I'm pretty sure Ref quit Brawl...

BTW on AiB's singles latter a certain Ness user was in the top 5 for this spring bracket...

as far as momentum canceling goes, sonics is legit the 3rd/4th best in the game

I was asking how much that effects as far as % of living goes...Colin has a chart made that compares the differences for how G&W lives from Ness' Bthrow...

 

[MrEh]

EIDI doesn't exist.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201575&page=11

I saw that awhile ago and lol'ed.

Well...its not like Ness is easy to grab as well...

If Bowser can grab MK, he can grab Ness.

I'm not saying it's easy, but he can do it with no problem.

 

[Kinzer]

Clinton, all I'll say is that you can't count Wi-Fi for shizz, the stuff is just that ********.

 

[_clinton]

Clinton, all I'll say is that you can't count Wi-Fi for shizz, the stuff is just that ********.

I respectfully disagree with you