Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[da K.I.D.]

the fact that you are bad at it, doesnt mean that its ******** kin...

the fact that ness is not a wifi aided character and still pulled 5th in IS an accomplishment.

However after all this discusion, id like to know what clinton thinks as to which character is better.

 

[Kinzer]

You're saying I'm bad at Wi-Fi?

I'm sorry it was so half-a**ed by Sakurai and that characters like Sonic are absolute garbage on more garbage so I just choose not to Wi-Fi (anymore).

I like to think Ness is better on Wi-Fi because of things like how it's d*** near impossible to PS shield stuff like PK Fire or something like PK Thunder which wasn't a nuisance enough offline.

 

[_clinton]

the fact that you are bad at it, doesnt mean that its ******** kin...

the fact that ness is not a wifi aided character and still pulled 5th in IS an accomplishment.

However after all this discusion, id like to know what clinton thinks as to which character is better.

I'm on my Wii ATM...
I happen to play as both Sonic and Ness...I can say that me giving my opinion on which one I find to be better would have some biased in it towards the one I just happen to play as better...
Plus I have my own personal issues on taking a side to just about anything...

 

[JayBee]

at clinton: about the airdodge comment you made: that's exactly my point, most of the cast can bait that airdodge because thier uairs are so good, and your dair has startup as well. if you "like to airdodge" that will get punished. its hard for ness in this situation because he has to be perfect or he gets juggled a lots. baiting airdodges is a part of brawl, and its easier when the juggled person doesn't have a reliable and quick "get off of me "option when his opponent is below him.

trufax: ive juggled ness in matches repeatedly with sonic's upair. the options ive seen are dair and airdodge, the first is outprioritized by sonic's upair, the second, is usually baited and punished on a consistant basis.

has the ness daired me at times instead. of coarse, but that was due to not so good spacing on my part. when I do it right, he takes damage, and/or put into a disadvantagous situation in the end. and im sonic. if i was meta.... dear god...

 

[_clinton]

at clinton: about the airdodge comment you made: that's exactly my point, most of the cast can bait that airdodge because thier uairs are so good, and your dair has startup as well. if you "like to airdodge" that will get punished. its hard for ness in this situation because he has to be perfect or he gets juggled a lots. baiting airdodges is a part of brawl, and its easier when the juggled person doesn't have a reliable and quick "get off of me "option when his opponent is below him.

Stat wise for the air...Ness' Nair is his get off me move that for some reason trades with everything

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

At this rate of /facepalming, I'm gonna get one hell of a black eye :/

You people are going around and around and around and around and around and around in circles. Not only that, you keep de railing this thread and talking about things that are like something out of an extensive Sonic vs Insertcharacterhere match up thread

This is supposed to be how Sonic is potentially a better character than Insertcharacterhere and how he deserves to be higher on the tier list right? I don't I've seen any proper discussion on match ups or specific weaknesses that are either pretty irrelevent or haven't been tossed aside such as 'oh it's ok becuase I'm hard to grab!' or 'I have amazing mindgames!'.

I'm not saying who but it's pretty clear that some of you posting here are horrifically biased and are dragging things out for a painfully long time. If I randomly walked in here and wanted to know who's better out of the two, I wouldn't know to be honest. This is for both Sonic/Samus and Sonic/Ness because there's pretty much zilch on match ups in this thread, confliction of the effect of tourney results. Instead, we have detailed analysis on...moves??? Ok that's good but not the top priority. You could have the most amazing recovery in the world or the strongest kill moves out there but if you get grab released by around every member of the cast giving you huge damage and potential death, that's really not something you can shrug off. Likewise, your mindgame potential can be confusing, surprising and can be used to outsmart opponents but since we're talking about the theoretical highest level of play, if mindgames is all you've got, you're character probably isn't very good


So in a nutshell, discussing moves is absolutely fine but it's really not important since some moves are going to work a lot differently depending on the character they're up against/depending on the situation. Accept your character's weaknesses (quite frankly, both have a lot), BE AWARE THAT YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT and discuss things that actually matter. I hate to randomly pop in here and sound like mother but if I'm being brutally honest, this thread isn't going anywhere and I'd like to try and support Chis with it. It isn't helped by some of your rather aggressive and one sided attitudes either (is there really any need?)

 

[illinialex24]

Insanely better recovery.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ive been trying to keep on track and discussion the attributes of ness as a whole and the attribute of sonic as a whole and to state why I believe those factor end up making sonic a better character.

 

[JayBee]

i think its time to move on. I looks like we've got this character looked at enough. whats next anyways? lucus?

 

[illinialex24]

Have you guys done Jigglypuff? Because I would like to find that thread....

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think its time to move on. I looks like we've got this character looked at enough. whats next anyways? lucus?

have we established a consensus on which character is better?

than its not time to move on

 

[Blistering Speed]

I very much doubt you'll reach a consensus. This is Smashboards and people are stubborn, what you can hope for is your own opinion to be swayed and fortified till you think it's close to accurate.

 

[_clinton]

I'd like to do Captain Falcon next because Sonic and him have a lot in common with each other IMO...

ive been trying to keep on track and discussion the attributes of ness as a whole and the attribute of sonic as a whole and to state why I believe those factor end up making sonic a better character.

Stat wise I feel Ness would be better...but I already gave my views on what may factor into that...

 

[Chis]

We're doing Lucas next, as explained in the OP.

 

[_clinton]

We're doing Lucas next, as explained in the OP.

Ok...Lucas moves through the air faster than Ness as well as on the ground faster (in running speed anyway) in fact a short hop air dodge has almost no real downsides to Lucas' approach...
Lucas' airs except Dair have auto cancel effects...Lucas' Nair is safe on shields because of it...so Lucas can throw out his 2 frame jab combo right away...Lucas' airs are overall faster than Ness' as well...

Lucas' Ftilt has IASA frames and has more range than G&W's dtilt...his Utilt is better than Ness' as far as speed and range go...his Dtilt has a better sweet spot for that auto trip IMO than Ness' Dtilt...still Ness' Dtilt is overall safe on shields and Lucas' isn't (because it has far more down time)

Lucas has a harder time killing overall than Ness does...but he has some set ups for somewhat easy options...Dair is like Ness' fair only angled down of course...and unless the person techs right they end up eating an up to 36% or so KO combo...of course Lucas' smashes are sort of meant for punishing errors...
So other than his smashes, all of his throws, his two spikes with Dair and Bair, his about the same power Fair as G&W's...His Ftilt can kill if it is very fresh and the foe is high in %...the gimps he can do with Magnet, PK Fire, PK Thunder...the fact that Freeze doesn't create as much of an opening as Flash IMO (because it isn't as good as Ness' Flash IMO) Lucas does have some issues with killing...

While his throws can kill...they are affected more by DI than Ness' single job Bthrow...the only ones that have reason to be ok are Dthrow and for back up Uthrow (I say back up because Uthrow is about 10% weaker than Dthrow) still Dthrow kills mid weights at 130 or so...of course...Lucas' grabs aren't as good as Ness' (His Fsmash comes out on frame 14...well his standing grab comes out on frame 11, his running on frame 15, and his pivot on frame 14...the only one without any real down time his his Pivot grab)

Lucas' recovery is 5/5...I really don't care what you may think on this...His 2nd jump has the same distance being covered as Ness' 2nd jump...but added on to that he has a better stalling option (btw I forgot to bring up Magnet being an ok staller with Ness...well it is better with Lucas)...he has rope snake which has longer horizontal range than Link's and Tink's tether ropes...a harder to cancel PKT that also happens to be longer in range than Fire Fox and you can't cut the range...oh and Zap Jump/Magnet pull...the only thing about it that is maybe worse than Ness' is the fact that his air game isn't as good as Ness'...and the risk at trying to intercept him isn't as great if you screw up somewhat...

Lucas has grab release issues like Ness does...however unlike Ness his ground release sends him out further although I don't think it matters because they still overall have a chance at a free hit or so...of course the main issue is that his air release is by far worse than Ness'

This post should show you that saying Lucas is like Ness isn't really true I hope...

 

[Kinzer]

Mother's post.

I quoted you for a reason, but I kind of forgot da****...

Oh I remember!

The other character's boards' purpose is to disprove why Sonic should not be put above them, if that holds true, so we have no choice but to argue if there's another side to the debate.

I've been trying to say (but with little success) that Ness < Sonic.

Yes, I realise Ness has his points, but it does not help that Ness' weaknesses are much MUCH more exploitable than Sonic's. That's why Meta Knight ATM is top dog in the tier list, because at the time it was made his metagame (*cough* more like his simple broken/tournament results/more top players playing MK at the top of his "metagame" compared to the amount of say top Snake players playing him at the top of his game) but that's getting from the point) has made it far enough that his strengths are proably arguably equal to Snakes, however Meta Knight did not/does not have the same problems Snakes have/had to deal with. You never hear about Snake or MK having a kill problem, but you never hear about a MK getting gimped whereas Snake's recovery is much more manipulated for example.

Whew what a long post.

I guess I should stop sugarcoating by this point, and/but I will also argue for those who are trying to pull the "but Sonic has more players playing him!" card and just say that maybe if Ness and Power Suit Samus had the same luxuries that Sonic did, then maybe more people would flock to said characters and be doing something, however we are seeing quite the opposite and ATM we are experiencing how both have their problems carrying out their good points while keeping their bad sides to a minimum. Now we can also pretend that for all the low-tier characters the only people playing are their "champions" (like how Malcolm is the best Sonic, or at least that's the community consensus), and while I am not aware of who does well with Ness or Samus, can you deny who is more successful?

Random people playing random characters in 16-man tourneys with no big-names doesn't help either, even the false SBR said it themselves to the Sonic boards when they won't take our s*** and want to see some legit results if we wanted them to even start considering a rise in Sonic... so what did some people like Espy do shortly after? Why pull a 4th placing right out of their a** of course!

Not even people like Ref or Tudor, but where are some other Ness/Samus players doing their thing and showing people what the characters are capable of doing...? They don't exist or are having a much harder time than Sonic mainers because again in an environment where it matters, the competitive tourney scene, it can't be done at all or to the same degree.

Nobody here (or at least not me) is denying that low-tier characters are low-tier for a reason and suck, but the purpose of this thread is to find who sucks less I guess.

Have you guys done Jigglypuff? Because I would like to find that thread....

Yeah, me and a few other people have been saying that we should backtrack and first prove why or how Sonic ended up being higher than other characters... I guess the discussion right now though is if there are characters higher than Sonic, could we decided if that's true or not?

Let me say that if for some very odd reason Ness gets put at the top of the list, then just pretend that everybody (literally) accepts that Sonic > Ness, then by this logic shouldn't Sonic be ahead by Ness, no matter how much?

P.S. according to the OP, we haven't moved on to Lucas yet, so no need to conjure up a post for those two... yet.

I don't even really know why we had to do Ness first, the community consensus is that Ness > Lucas, so we should've worked on who was the worse of the two, but oh well.

 

[_clinton]

I guess I should stop sugarcoating by this point, and/but I will also argue for those who are trying to pull the "but Sonic has more players playing him!" card and just say that maybe if Ness and Power Suit Samus had the same luxuries that Sonic did, then maybe more people would flock to said characters and be doing something, however we are seeing quite the opposite and ATM we are experiencing how both have their problems carrying out their good points while keeping their bad sides to a minimum.
Now we can also pretend that for all the low-tier characters the only people playing are their "champions" (like how Malcolm is the best Sonic, or at least that's the community consensus), and while I am not aware of who does well with Ness or Samus, can you deny who is more successful?

Actually my point with the whole Sonic has more people playing him is because of his fanbase...not because of any +s or -s he may have...more people really are just put simply...more familiar with Sonic than Ness...and as such you have more people asking themselves if they want to deal with the -s that the character has more...

Oh and the fact that a Ness was in AiB's top 5 is still out there...

Ok...so lets talk about other characters sense that was one of the things that was brought up at one point...

For what your board sees...
7:3 Sonic=none
6.5:3.5 Sonic=none
6:4 Sonic=Link, Ganondorf
5.5:4.5 Sonic=Ness, Falcon, Ivysaur
5:5 Even=Samus, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Pit, Squirtle, Diddy, Ike, Jigglypuff, Bowser
4.5:5.5 vs. Sonic=Mario, Pikachu, Luigi, Olimar, Charizard, Lucas
6:4 vs. Sonic=DK, Zamus, Kirby, Fox, ROB, Snake, Peach, MK, Yoshi, Falco, Sheik, Wario, D3, Tink, Wolf, Lucario
6.5:3.5: vs. Sonic=G&W, Marth
7:3 vs. Sonic=none

For what our board sees...isn't done yet because the TC avoids that for whatever reason...

Mario: No opinion was seen…our board views him as 55:45 Mario ATM
Luigi: No opinion…our board views him as even
Peach: Is done…however the write up isn’t…we are 55:45 Peach
Bowser: No opinion…we are 40:60 Ness
DK: No opinion…we are 55:45 DK
Diddy: They have 6:4 Diddy…we don’t have anything
Yoshi: They have 45:55 Ness…which is what we have…
Wario: We both see 6:4 Wario ATM…
Link: No opinion from them…We have 55:45 Ness
Zelda: We both see it as even…
Sheik: They see it as 6:4 Sheik…we have 6:4 Sheik…They see a Zelda/Sheik combo has 65:35 Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf: They have 65:35 Ness…we don’t have a view…
Tink: They have 55:45 Tink…We have 6:4 Tink…
Samus: No opinion…we have 6:4 Ness…
Zamus: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ness…
Pit: No opinion…We have 55:45 Pit
Ice Climbers: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ice Climbers
ROB: No opinion…We have 55:45 ROB
Kirby: We both are even
MK: No new opinion yet…We have 60:40 MK
D3: We both have 60:40 D3
Olimar: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ness
Fox: We both have 6:4 Ness
Falco: We have 55:45 Falco
Wolf: They have 55:45 Wolf…We don’t have an opinion…
Falcon: No opinion…We have 60:40 Ness
Pikachu: They have 55:45 Pikachu…We are even
Squirtle: They have 6:4 Squirtle…We don’t have an opinion…
Ivysaur: They have 65:35 Ivysaur…We don’t have an opinion…
Charizard: They have Even…We don’t have an opinion…I think we need to talk about the PT match up…
Lucario: We both don’t have an opinion…but the match is done on our boards…I think it is even ^_^
JP: They don’t have an opinion…We have 6:4 Ness…
Marth: They have 7:3 Marth…which was better than when it was 8:2 at least…We have 6:4 Marth…
Ike: I think they are going to put it even…We have 55:45 Ness
Lucas: I’m pretty sure they just changed it to 55:45 Ness…We have 6:4 Ness
G&W: They have 7:3…we don’t have an opinion…
Snake: They don’t have an opinion…we don’t have an opinion…I think the view is 6:4 Snake…
Sonic: You have it as 55:45 (we see it as 5:5)

Anyway looking at the bad match ups…based off the other views only or at least what I think will happen with MK and Snake…
6:4=(MK, Snake,) D3, Diddy, Wario, Sheik, Squirtle
65:35=Ivysaur
7:3=Marth, G&W

Some of them really don't make sense sometimes...but whatever...

 

[Kinzer]

Not everybody does like Sonic in Brawl though, so just because he has a bigger fanbase doesn't necessarily mean more people will be playing him... at a top level of course, I can only imagine how many casuals who don't even know about competitive Brawl could be doing whatever...

If I had to give you examples of said people quitting Sonic... eh well... TBH it's not so much dropping Sonic as it is just avoiding the boards, but I'm sure somebody else can back me up.

And I honestly can't see anything out of Wi-Fi being taken seriously, but whatever I don't really care enough to argue, I just do my shizz offline and people do theirs elsewhere I suppose.

 

[Chis]

Sonic having a fan base is just an assumption >_> Every character has a fan base. I still don't see any solid evidence that there are millions of Sonics out there so....yeah. Prove it.

Also keep in mind a lot of Sonic match explcludes the possibility of 'mind games'. It's just on paper, just how Sonic might look as a bad character on paper. But Not so bad in actual tourneys.

The other character's boards' purpose is to disprove why Sonic should not be put above them, if that holds true, so we have no choice but to argue if there's another side to the debate.

Er, that's not the purpose.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Actually my point with the whole Sonic has more people playing him is because of his fanbase...not because of any +s or -s he may have...more people really are just put simply...more familiar with Sonic than Ness...and as such you have more people asking themselves if they want to deal with the -s that the character has more...

Oh and the fact that a Ness was in AiB's top 5 is still out there...

This whole 'Sonic has more people using him' arguement has been used over a billion times to the point where it's getting very very stale. If Sonic has a larger fanbase and there's more people using him, surely that means that Sonic would do worse as people would have experience against him? And if Sonic was really that rubbish, he still wouldn't come out in the Top 8 in a big tourney right? No one ever seems to question the likes of MK and Snake being at the top. A poor comparison perhaps because they're unquestionablly good but why the predjudice against Sonic?

And you really can't use AiB rankings considering it's online. You understand I'm shooting myself in the foot here cause currently my best way of Brawling is online which I'm not ashamed to admit. Things are different online compared to offline. Online is better than most people give it credit depending on the lag but it's still very limited compared to offline

Ok...so lets talk about other characters sense that was one of the things that was brought up at one point...

For what your board sees...
7:3 Sonic=none
6.5:3.5 Sonic=none
6:4 Sonic=Link, Ganondorf
5.5:4.5 Sonic=Ness, Falcon, Ivysaur
5:5 Even=Samus, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Pit, Squirtle, Diddy, Ike, Jigglypuff, Bowser
4.5:5.5 vs. Sonic=Mario, Pikachu, Luigi, Olimar, Charizard, Lucas
6:4 vs. Sonic=DK, Zamus, Kirby, Fox, ROB, Snake, Peach, MK, Yoshi, Falco, Sheik, Wario, D3, Tink, Wolf, Lucario
6.5:3.5: vs. Sonic=G&W, Marth
7:3 vs. Sonic=none

For what our board sees...isn't done yet because the TC avoids that for whatever reason...

Mario: No opinion was seen…our board views him as 55:45 Mario ATM
Luigi: No opinion…our board views him as even
Peach: Is done…however the write up isn’t…we are 55:45 Peach
Bowser: No opinion…we are 40:60 Ness
DK: No opinion…we are 55:45 DK
Diddy: They have 6:4 Diddy…we don’t have anything
Yoshi: They have 45:55 Ness…which is what we have…
Wario: We both see 6:4 Wario ATM…
Link: No opinion from them…We have 55:45 Ness
Zelda: We both see it as even…
Sheik: They see it as 6:4 Sheik…we have 6:4 Sheik…They see a Zelda/Sheik combo has 65:35 Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf: They have 65:35 Ness…we don’t have a view…
Tink: They have 55:45 Tink…We have 6:4 Tink…
Samus: No opinion…we have 6:4 Ness…
Zamus: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ness…
Pit: No opinion…We have 55:45 Pit
Ice Climbers: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ice Climbers
ROB: No opinion…We have 55:45 ROB
Kirby: We both are even
MK: No new opinion yet…We have 60:40 MK
D3: We both have 60:40 D3
Olimar: No opinion…We have 55:45 Ness
Fox: We both have 6:4 Ness
Falco: We have 55:45 Falco
Wolf: They have 55:45 Wolf…We don’t have an opinion…
Falcon: No opinion…We have 60:40 Ness
Pikachu: They have 55:45 Pikachu…We are even
Squirtle: They have 6:4 Squirtle…We don’t have an opinion…
Ivysaur: They have 65:35 Ivysaur…We don’t have an opinion…
Charizard: They have Even…We don’t have an opinion…I think we need to talk about the PT match up…
Lucario: We both don’t have an opinion…but the match is done on our boards…I think it is even ^_^
JP: They don’t have an opinion…We have 6:4 Ness…
Marth: They have 7:3 Marth…which was better than when it was 8:2 at least…We have 6:4 Marth…
Ike: I think they are going to put it even…We have 55:45 Ness
Lucas: I’m pretty sure they just changed it to 55:45 Ness…We have 6:4 Ness
G&W: They have 7:3…we don’t have an opinion…
Snake: They don’t have an opinion…we don’t have an opinion…I think the view is 6:4 Snake…
Sonic: You have it as 55:45 (we see it as 5:5)

Anyway looking at the bad match ups…based off the other views only or at least what I think will happen with MK and Snake…
6:4=(MK, Snake,) D3, Diddy, Wario, Sheik, Squirtle
65:35=Ivysaur
7:3=Marth, G&W

Some of them really don't make sense sometimes...but whatever...

It seems like a lot of your match ups haven't been done yet but looking at things, it looks like they have fairly similar match ups but Ness seems to do worse in some areas. Added on with the fact that Ness has that horrible grab release problem and argueably not as good recovery...

Sonic on the other hand lacks range and kill power. Ness has very good range on his Fair and has a killer B Throw, along with much stronger aerials. Ness also has two projectiles...

It's a toughie. It's hard to reach a proper conclusion when most of Ness' match ups are still pending


Just to add in, the Peach vs Ness match up was hardly done either...neither side really reached a proper conclusion. And considering the Peach can grab release ---> pummel ---> continual grab release to desired air release ---> guaranteed Fair which will probably be fresh from all the pummeling, I honestly can't see Peach vs Ness being even. This however, is not the place to discuss such a thing

 

[Chis]

May we rap this up? I think we've had some healthy discussion (????), but it's time to move on unfortunately.

I think we're starting to get the idea...

Lucas next guys.

 

[_clinton]

Sorry...but I want to post this before we go onto Lucas...besides its not like you don't have a wall of text already about Lucas compared with Ness to look at...

Sonic having a fan base is just an assumption >_> Every character has a fan base. I still don't see any solid evidence that there are millions of Sonics out there so....yeah. Prove it.
Also keep in mind a lot of Sonic match explcludes the possibility of 'mind games'. It's just on paper, just how Sonic might look as a bad character on paper. But Not so bad in actual tourneys.
Er, that's not the purpose.

Are you saying Sonic is lacking in fans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(character)#Reception_and_legacy

Also if we want to talk about mind games the fact that Ness has mind game moves that kill at 40 and 60% says to me that Ness might beat Sonic in that area...but whatever...

Oh and a latter is a fine example of how well people are doing...unless you think Ally isn't doing good online and offline as well...

This whole 'Sonic has more people using him' arguement has been used over a billion times to the point where it's getting very very stale. If Sonic has a larger fanbase and there's more people using him, surely that means that Sonic would do worse as people would have experience against him? And if Sonic was really that rubbish, he still wouldn't come out in the Top 8 in a big tourney right? No one ever seems to question the likes of MK and Snake being at the top. A poor comparison perhaps because they're unquestionablly good but why the predjudice against Sonic?

Again...my point is the numbers that are using him are so low but still are sort of high is because he is that rubbish...Sonic was one of the selling points of the game you know...people wanted him in...that fact that he isn't being used as much shows that people don't like him...personally I don't see him as that bad...but whatever...

And you really can't use AiB rankings considering it's online. You understand I'm shooting myself in the foot here cause currently my best way of Brawling is online which I'm not ashamed to admit. Things are different online compared to offline. Online is better than most people give it credit depending on the lag but it's still very limited compared to offline

The issues with online vs. offline is the fact that any lag really doesn't matter in a real match...the fact that I've been playing online sense Brawl came out and the only time I have any lag is because of someone having an issue with their Wifi...
Still I agree there is more than just lag to deal with...people like me for example like online over offline because of the simple fact that finding a large group of people to be surrounded by is an issue for me...for more than one reason actually...

It seems like a lot of your match ups haven't been done yet but looking at things, it looks like they have fairly similar match ups but Ness seems to do worse in some areas. Added on with the fact that Ness has that horrible grab release problem and argueably not as good recovery...

The Ness board doesn't agree with the 7:3 on Marth and G&W...we also chances are won't agree with the Pokemon Trainer thing...or at least I won't ^_^

Also its not like the other boards agree with your match ups (the MK boards for example have Sonic under 65:35 MK...for whatever reason)

Also looking at them so far...Ness does look like he is doing better...

Sonic on the other hand lacks range and kill power. Ness has very good range on his Fair and has a killer B Throw, along with much stronger aerials. Ness also has two projectiles...

Grabs and throws are Ness' + as well...

Just to add in, the Peach vs Ness match up was hardly done either...neither side really reached a proper conclusion. And considering the Peach can grab release ---> pummel ---> continual grab release to desired air release ---> guaranteed Fair which will probably be fresh from all the pummeling, I honestly can't see Peach vs Ness being even. This however, is not the place to discuss such a thing

The Peach boards say Ness is done though...but yeah...I agree it isn't the place to talk ATM...

BTW one final thing to point out...Ness and Lucas were seen as much higher on the ideal tier list until the grab release issue showed up on them...which really screwed them...that is quite unfair actually...they weren't disliked as characters really until one thing showed up somewhat latter in the metagame on them...Wario recovered from his issues...but they didn't...

 

[Kinzer]

To be fair, the MK boards' MU thread is in need of a MAJOR do over or remake. It's outdated, lacking real information (all they do is just quote people, but they don't always say everything, let alone from all perspectives), incomplete, and just really unorganized ,although I do suppose that when you play MK you don't really need to know how to beat the opponents' characters anyway.

I also kind of doubt Sonic really is that much of a popular character. Perhaps in Europe according to that Wikipedia article, but have you seen some people on SWF? Even if Ness truly doesn't have a bigger fanbase, at least you don't see people hating on the poor boy unless it has to do with being low-tier, and Sonic has those same problems too.

And Chis then what would be the point in debating from their PoV if we could just argue amongst ourselves when you put it in that way? They got to be able to say why or why not right, or what point is there in coming in here other than to correct us on some stuff?

As for Lucas, I'll wait for more people to come in here.

 

[_clinton]

To be fair, the MK boards' MU thread is in need of a MAJOR do over or remake. It's outdated, lacking real information (all they do is just quote people, but they don't always say everything, let alone from all perspectives), incomplete, and just really unorganized ,although I do suppose that when you play MK you don't really need to know how to beat the opponents' characters anyway.

Well to be fair the data for that is from:
1/22/09 - Sonic Info Added
1/26/09 - Sonic Info Updated

But yeah...I agree...that thread needs a do over almost as much as our Ness thread does ^_^

I also kind of doubt Sonic really is that much of a popular character. Perhaps in Europe according to that Wikipedia article, but have you seen some people on SWF? Even if Ness truly doesn't have a bigger fanbase, at least you don't see people hating on the poor boy unless it has to do with being low-tier, and Sonic has those same problems too.

Not everyone likes Ness...still the truth is a little backlash is expected from any form of media...the amount of hate is only as high really as to the popularity of the character...

But still really...Ness is only low tier because of grab release issues (which are by far overblown)

Anyway I feel like giving a number of where Lucas is at in certain stats ATM...
Ground game=4/5
Air game=4/5
Grabs=2/5
Recovery=5/5

 

[Kinzer]

>.>

It' still one of the more updated and complete MU trheads on SWF. XD

Eh but let's just forget about it I guess, that contributes nothing to what this is about.

... D***, turns out I'm still waiting a little bit.

I will say that the community consensus is that Ness > Lucas, nobody really provides reasons as to why, but perhaps that is because of how Lucas' MUs are even worse than Ness or that's what I read.

I know for certain Lucas has a better recovery than Ness, a longer PKT2 that doesn't lose distance when hitting objects, and a tether to boot.

 

[Chis]

Sorry...but I want to post this before we go onto Lucas...besides its not like you don't have a wall of text already about Lucas compared with Ness to look at...

Are you saying Sonic is lacking in fans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(character)#Reception_and_legacy

That doesn't prove that they're are more tourney variable Sonic's placing then usual.

Also if we want to talk about mind games the fact that Ness has mind game moves that kill at 40 and 60% says to me that Ness might beat Sonic in that area...but whatever...

You mean that pk thingy. Does that work constantly?

 

[Browny]

lucas' nair game being 8/5 averages with all his other aerials to bring it to 4/5 lmao

 

[_clinton]

That doesn't prove that they're are more tourney variable Sonic's placing then usual.

I'm not trying to prove they are tourney Sonic's though...I'm just trying to prove that Sonic has a higher % of having more people pick him up based off how well known he is...which leads to more people willing to deal with his handicaps that he may have...

You mean that pk thingy. Does that work constantly?

Do Sonic's work constantly? Oh and I wasn't only talking about PKT...however because of how open PKT is as a projectile...it pretty much is free damage when ever it seems to be thrown out if played right...of course that is sort of the point behind Ness' 3 projectile specials anyway...to make openings (as well as other things...god PKT is a sweet Swiss army knife)...

Of course I'm pretty sure Sonic's side special cancel sort of is meant to do the same thing anyway as well...of course there is less risk with it failing at least...

lucas' nair game being 8/5 averages with all his other aerials to bring it to 4/5 lmao

Stat wise I'd say Lucas' Dair is his 20% ace in the hole that leads to a kill combo at 80% but whatever...of course Lucas' Dair is also a wall of priority for where it is at...

 

[Chis]

I'm not trying to prove they are tourney Sonic's though...I'm just trying to prove that Sonic has a higher % of having more people pick him up based off how well known he is...which leads to more people willing to deal with his handicaps that he may have...

These are still assumptions though, I haven't seen any prof but theory craft. :/

Do Sonic's work constantly? Oh and I wasn't only talking about PKT...however because of how open PKT is as a projectile...it pretty much is free damage when ever it seems to be thrown out if played right...of course that is sort of the point behind Ness' 3 projectile specials anyway...to make openings (as well as other things...god PKT is a sweet Swiss army knife)...

Of course I'm pretty sure Sonic's side special cancel sort of is meant to do the same thing anyway as well...of course there is less risk with it failing at least...

Sonic's do work very constantly. He can use the strange priorities of his dash, spin dash shield cancel or areal spin charge to bait and reaction from your opponent.

 

[_clinton]

These are still assumptions though, I haven't seen any prof but theory craft. :/

So...you think the fact that Sonic being one of the most popular video game characters out there who was used as a selling point for this game wouldn't affect people trying to pick him up and work with him at all? You are aware the point of Mario being "all-around" and a starter character for all 3 games is because of his familiarity right? Where as Ness is seen as harder when it comes to learning how to use him (as quote from his Dojo profile).

Sonic's do work very constantly. He can use the strange priorities of his dash, spin dash shield cancel or areal spin charge to bait and reaction from your opponent.

Right...he is the only one who can bait, dash dance, throw out a fake move, ect.
btw Firebound is a nice bait option...it propels Ness away from the foe using the momentum of his 2nd jump while throwing a aerial PK Fire out...think of how Sonic's spin shot works...only Ness can fire forward or backwards with his PK Fire (and have lagless landings...of course he doesn't fly as far as Sonic does...and getting the lagless landing requires you using aerial PK Fire's IASA frames)...hell both Ness and Lucas have a good amount of spacing options with their PK Fire...

 

[Tenki]

Lucas' D-air is **** ;o

So...you think the fact that Sonic being one of the most popular video game characters out there who was used as a selling point for this game wouldn't affect people trying to pick him up and work with him at all?

Alright, here's a little bit of Sonic board history.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72265

This thread made up over 15,000 of the posts in the Sonic Boards. It was created waay before Brawl was released. LOTS AND LOTS OF PROSPECTIVE/ACTUAL SONIC MAINS.

Alot of it was fanboy blob, and just as Brawl came out, it was a sort of wi-fi thread/SSS online clan chat. About a month after Brawl came out in the US, the Sonic boards were already dead.

No metagame, just a bunch of "I wanna prove Sonic is better!" BS or repetitive stuff like "WHOA, I CAN HIT A WHEN I CHARGE SIDEB AND I MAKE VERTICAL SPINDASH LOL!", and talking about double spring - from people who no longer play Sonic or Brawl, for that matter.

At one point, a certain person came about and brought some adversity in the boards with his pro wrestling references and unique typing style, and steak. And it became amazing lol.
We pretty much flamed people who looked like useless fanboys who weren't going to be any good at Brawl, which doesn't help since some of the threads here are kind of long, and/or complicated.

But yeah, by now, alot of those people who used Sonic because he's a popular character main/actually use better characters, if they even play this game anymore. The 30-40 Sonic mains between here and AiB, give a few that either aren't on either boards but are skilled, and take some that don't go to tourneys - are pretty much the only ones who might be worth anything in the metagame :l

Right...he is the only one who can bait, dash dance, throw out a fake move, ect.

Nah, alot of what Sonic does can be done by every character. I mean heck, Diddy can cancel his peanut gun into shield, or even just cancel it in midair >_>

However, some of his natural traits make some of those things better.

Obviously, he has the fastest running speed in the game, but what makes his pretty much the best dash is:

1) It's fast enough to actually be a little unpredictable/'force' commitment from the opponent, or run in and punish more moves.
2) His fulldash stop (screech stop) is fast and has alot less lag/slide than other characters' fulldash stop - this works wonders for spacing and getting counter moves - no shield drop lag/commitment necessary. Try running with Falcon and stopping into an F-tilt (regularly or by shield), and compare that with doing the same as Sonic lol.
3) Cancellable foxtrot.

I'm really bored.

 

[Chis]

So...you think the fact that Sonic being one of the most popular video game characters out there who was used as a selling point for this game wouldn't affect people trying to pick him up and work with him at all? You are aware the point of Mario being "all-around" and a starter character for all 3 games is because of his familiarity right? Where as Ness is seen as harder when it comes to learning how to use him (as quote from his Dojo profile).

Come on, you just keep making assumptions. This is obviously not the case. >_>
You haven't shown me any evidence or anything yet, only this idea that the Sonic series has a lot of fans=a lot of brawl mainers. By that logic, Mario, Link, Samus etc have loads of mainers too.

Right...he is the only one who can bait, dash dance, throw out a fake move, ect.
btw Firebound is a nice bait option...it propels Ness away from the foe using the momentum of his 2nd jump while throwing a aerial PK Fire out...think of how Sonic's spin shot works...only Ness can fire forward or backwards with his PK Fire (and have lagless landings...of course he doesn't fly as far as Sonic does...and getting the lagless landing requires you using aerial PK Fire's IASA frames)...hell both Ness and Lucas have a good amount of spacing options with their PK Fire...

Yeah I wasn't just talking about his dash dance you know. I was thanking about his dash dance pivot (foxtrot to dash dash, Sonic has a lot of options from this), his screech stop (Sonic can do anything from this) , foxtrot (Sonic's foxtrot is long, it's possible to SDSC it, jump fsmash and some other stuff from it), his turn around pivots (kind of the same as a screech stop). Also being the fastest character in the game make this more effective for Sonic them most characters. But from the 'mindgame' Sonic can punish effectively, due to his speed and throw game. His out of shield options ain't so bad either. Also having cancelable approaches can't be bad either.

 

[_clinton]

Come on, you just keep making assumptions. This is obviously not the case. >_>
You haven't shown me any evidence or anything yet, only this idea that the Sonic series has a lot of fans=a lot of brawl mainers. By that logic, Mario, Link, Samus etc have loads of mainers too.

Mario, Link, and Samus all have other things that factored into them being unused...unless you think people are willing to deal with Link's recovery...hell you are aware that Samus was on the *****ing list like C. Falcon was when Brawl came out right? But whatever...the post above the one that you posted already sort of proved my point...people wanted Sonic...but they moved on almost right away...

Yeah I wasn't just talking about his dash dance you know. I was thanking about his dash dance pivot (foxtrot to dash dash, Sonic has a lot of options from this), his screech stop (Sonic can do anything from this) , foxtrot (Sonic's foxtrot is long, it's possible to SDSC it, jump fsmash and some other stuff from it), his turn around pivots (kind of the same as a screech stop). Also being the fastest character in the game make this more effective for Sonic them most characters. But from the 'mindgame' Sonic can punish effectively, due to his speed and throw game. His out of shield options ain't so bad either. Also having cancelable approaches can't be bad either.

I wasn't just talking about his dash dance you know...that is why I brought up fake outs with certain moves and one of those that I was thinking of was his side special fake outs...

Oh and as far as grabs go...Fox has him beat with his turn around pivot (the same with C. Falcon...hell Ness' is good as well because of what his dash grab is like...plus his Bthrow...however he doesn't have enough speed I guess)

Oh and Sonic's throws aren't anything special as well...

Oh and you are aware that I already said Sonic's side special cancel is good right...still...Sonic isn't the only one with good mind games considering how and what some of the things Ness and Lucas have as well...hell the Dthrow from G&W and Snake is a very good mind game move as well

 

[Chis]

Oh and you are aware that I already said Sonic's side special cancel is good right...still...Sonic isn't the only one with good mind games considering how and what some of the things Ness and Lucas have as well...hell the Dthrow from G&W and Snake is a very good mind game move as well

I'm saying Sonic's "mindgames" potential are better then that of Ness and Lucas, and his move set encourages it. Sonic has a decent throw game. One of the best pummel rates in the game and has the strongest up throw percentage wise in the game. He has a decent tech game with down throw unless it's teched. You're bring up other characters, but we're not discussing them. We're talking about Ness, but it should be Lucas.

 

[_clinton]

I'm saying Sonic's "mindgames" potential are better then that of Ness and Lucas, and his move set encourages it. Sonic has a decent throw game. One of the best pummel rates in the game and has the strongest up throw percentage wise in the game. He has a decent tech game with down throw unless it's teched. You're bring up other characters, but we're not discussing them. We're talking about Ness, but it should be Lucas.

Ness and Lucas have better mind game potential...3 of Ness' special for one thing all have the option of making an opening and/or screwing with you and stat wise PKT and PKF both do a good job...however Lucas can do stuff like this with his magnet and PKF...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuUzJ-eOsw

Ness has a better throw game and for the most part grab game...he has one of the strongest kill throws (I don't really care who has the strongest ATM)...and his 3 other throws open up potential follow up options with either his air game (Dthrow) or PKT (with all 3)

Lucas doesn't really have a strong grab game (other than his pivot grab...of course his standing is ok to a point as well) but he has a strong throw game...Fthrow and Bthrow can KO if you DI them wrong...Uthrow and Dthrow pretty much do the same thing as well...KO...but Dthrow has about 10% more power and it also has a true combo with Utilt at lower %...

Pummels don't matter much if your foe happens to know how to break fast (which at high play is common) and while Sonic's Uthrow leads into some **** at low %...the other option it has with killing is very bad...oh and with Sonic's Dthrow...just good use of DI avoids issues with it...I mean it isn't hard at all to DI Sonic's throws...

Oh and my point bringing up other characters again is to compare...which is fair IMO when you want to talk about grab release info and things like that...plus in the case with Ness and Lucas...well the point with them being compared should be clear...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Pretty much 3 words sums it up.

Sonic - can - approach.

Do I get an award now?

And hello again everybody.

?

 

[Chis]

Ness and Lucas have better mind game potential...3 of Ness' special for one thing all have the option of making an opening and/or screwing with you and stat wise PKT and PKF both do a good job...however Lucas can do stuff like this with his magnet and PKF...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuUzJ-eOsw

They have some, but that doesn't mean it's better potential then Sonic. Not only doesn't Sonic have a wider variety of choices, but also can consistly punish them.

Ness has a better throw game and for the most part grab game...he has one of the strongest kill throws (I don't really care who has the strongest ATM)...and his 3 other throws open up potential follow up options with either his air game (Dthrow) or PKT (with all 3)

Lucas doesn't really have a strong grab game (other than his pivot grab...of course his standing is ok to a point as well) but he has a strong throw game...Fthrow and Bthrow can KO if you DI them wrong...Uthrow and Dthrow pretty much do the same thing as well...KO...but Dthrow has about 10% more power and it also has a true combo with Utilt at lower %...

Pummels don't matter much if your foe happens to know how to break fast (which at high play is common) and while Sonic'ss Uthrow leads into some **** at low %...the other option it has with killing is very bad...oh and with Sonic's Dthrow...just good use of DI avoids issues with it...I mean it isn't hard at all to DI Sonic's throws...

Same goes to Ness' back throw throw. Till around 140% aways. Sonic's fast though to land camp someone if the DI his up and forward throws through. Teching Sonic's down throw is better then DIing it. Sonic can sometimes power shield an attack if they haven to tech it. Up throw can kill though, around 170% though if it's fresh. And Forward throw can be used as a DI trap and some other stuff. Up throws main use is damage racking though, so whether they DI or not doesn't matter so much.

Pretty much 3 words sums it up.

Sonic - can - approach.

Do I get an award now?

And hello again everybody.

?

Hello ROOOOY, how has it been going?

 

[_clinton]

Pretty much 3 words sums it up.

Sonic - can - approach.

Do I get an award now?

And hello again everybody.

?

What makes you think Lucas can't approach? A short hop air dodge on Lucas' air speed pretty much gets him behind someone w/o any issue...Nair to Jab combo pretty much makes Lucas safe from any shield BS...that video I showed shows Lucas' Magnet pull use as well...

They have some, but that doesn't mean it's better potential then Sonic. Not only doesn't Sonic have a wider variety of choices, but also can consistly punish them.

Funny...because Ness and Lucas have a wide variety of choices as well for punishment...the point of Lucas' Dsmash for example is to punish defensive moves (mostly spot dodgers)...the point of Ness' yoyo is to punish defensive moves as well (mostly roll spammers)
Hell Lucas' usmash is meant for punishment as well...

Same goes to Ness' back throw throw. Till around 140% aways. Sonic's fast though to land camp someone if the DI his up and forward throws through. Teching Sonic's down throw is better then DIing it. Sonic can sometimes power shield an attack if they haven to tech it. Up throw can kill though, around 170% though if it's fresh. And Forward throw can be used as a DI trap and some other stuff. Up throws main use is damage racking though, so whether they DI or not doesn't matter so much.

Funny...because the point of Ness' Bthrow is to start using it at around 130% (it isn't 140...130 is the magic number for mid weights or so)...DIing his throws up gets you in his Dthrow set ups...DIing them away can get you screwed with Fthrow...by the ledge...a ground break sets up a Pillar Spike...also I'm pretty sure it is closer to 200% for the Uthrow KO...that thing really is affected by DI...oh and stat wise for what it is worth...I'd say Ness' throws do a better job at potential set ups than Sonic's...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Not too badly thankyou friend.

How the bloody hell did you get a custom title by the way?

ON TOPIC

I should probably start giving more sensible answers -_-

I don't see how Ness or Lucas, Lucas especially, have capacity for mind games. Sonic is good with 'mindgames' because he can usually punish the opponent for reacting for obvious reasons. All the fake-outs with speed, dash dances, shield cancelling, and all the rest of it give Sonic more options then pretty much all the cast. Of course, he's not perfect when it comes to all this. All these things to bait a reaction, even with Sonic's speed, are only really effective at medium close range, which in a way does kind of limit Sonic.

=========

On a note about the general layout behind the OP of this thread :- I don't like it.

Or at least, the way we're basing all this on the current tier list. Say we decide for example that Mario is better than Sonic. Does that mean that Mario should go above Sonic in our tier list?

**** off does it. A tier list isn't meant to be an order of best down to worst character. From my understanding, and in fact the wording on the official tier list.

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments.

Though we all know it didn't work out like that lolol


Of course, looking at it this way, the tier list is hopelessly wrong in relation to Sonic's placing.

Mario is several places above Sonic.
Mario is a better character than Sonic.
Mario isn't worth anywhere near as much as Sonic at a competitive scene.

Mario being several places above Sonic must tie in with him being a better character. NO ONE can say with a straight face that Mario at the time of creation of this list was having as much tournament success as Sonic.

For this reason, I don't really think it's worth moving Sonic up the tier list one place at a time after discussion about each character above him. Just make a new **** list, best down to worst, don't call it a tier list.


I may have worded things wrong, as I don't think this makes sense reading it, but I hope you get my general point. Being a good character shouldn't raise your standing in the tier list, it just wrongly does at the moment (in some cases).

What makes you think Lucas can't approach? A short hop air dodge on Lucas' air speed pretty much gets him behind someone w/o any issue...Nair to Jab combo pretty much makes Lucas safe from any shield BS...that video I showed shows Lucas' Magnet pull use as well...

A SH air dodge sounds like a pretty sorry approach to me. Granted, Lucas' nair, which leads into a few things if I'm not mistaken is actually a good approach. The problem is, it's obviously coming at close range. This isn't down to the player being predictable, this is down to the lack of options of approaching that Lucas has. I'm not sure about his aerial acceleration, so I don't know how good he is at weaving aerials.

It's mostly around mid close range that Lucas has big problems, too close to camp and FIYAH, but too far away to directly attack (because of range problems.) Meanwhile, Sonic doesn't do great at close range, but excels at the range that Lucas has difficulty with.

It's hard to compare two vastly different characters, especially at 2:40 in the morning >_>

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't see how Ness or Lucas, Lucas especially, have capacity for mind games.

Don't underestimate PKT mindgames.