Kirby General Discussion

[ChivalRuse]

But don't compare us to the Fox boards

 

[Comet7]

I love how active this forum is again. Take that, pichu boards!!!

better than the bowser boards.

is wall jump tech to kirbycide a good idea?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I would do it if there were an opportunity. Unfortunately, Kirby's up-b is so easy to intercept before it reaches/after it passes the ledge that usually there is no chance to tech on the ledge if your opponent knows what they are doing.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

better than the bowser boards.

is wall jump tech to kirbycide a good idea?

That is just style. Style is always the best option in smash, let alone low tier smash.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So I played against a Fox player in a ton of friendlies earlier this week. The matchup is so hard! I didn't lose any games, but Fox's threats are so looming. I just want to be in shield at all times because I'm afraid of up-smash and nair.

 

[kingPiano]

So I played against a Fox player in a ton of friendlies earlier this week. The matchup is so hard! I didn't lose any games, but Fox's threats are so looming. I just want to be in shield at all times because I'm afraid of up-smash and nair.

Yea sometimes you just have to throw in the white flag and use another character. Fox is pretty much the only exception I have make for Kirby. I use my Link or Ganondorf, so much easier.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's like the most one-sided matchup in the game. It's fun to try to overcome it though.

 

[Comet7]

Can Pichu nair Kirby out of his (Kirby's) down throw? I'm pretty sure somebody said Marth can Dolphin Slash out of it, and Jigglypuff can rest out of it, so I want to know if that can work.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm sure at some percents he can. At low percents, though, I'd imagine the launch from the d-throw isn't high enough to let Pichu get out of hitstun.

I don't think that's such a hugely played matchup anyway. Regardless, I usually just use u-throw in most circumstances since it's more damage.

 

[CAUP]

How did our hero do at Evo? Go Triple R!

 

[Plunder]

Lost to KirbyKaze in 1st round pool finals

Won 1st round pools losers

Then lost to Eikelmann in losers quarters

I believe he placed in top 180

 

[ChivalRuse]

Good stuff!

 

[CAUP]

The set with Eikelman was probably really close I bet

 

[ChivalRuse]

Anyone have tips on recovery with Kirby? That's the biggest area where I find myself not having a gameplan. I can't seem to find a good pattern for avoiding edgeguards (I briefly tried recovering high, but I find myself getting baired by the lanky/high jumping characters ... Falco, Falcon, Sheik, Fox).

 

[Plunder]

Anyone have tips on recovery with Kirby? That's the biggest area where I find myself not having a gameplan. I can't seem to find a good pattern for avoiding edgeguards (I briefly tried recovering high, but I find myself getting baired by the lanky/high jumping characters ... Falco, Falcon, Sheik, Fox).

Just always be throwing out hitboxes, Fair, FF Fair to mix up, turn around advancing Bair, FF Bair, and if you are recovering low - Up air through the stage. There's nothing you can do about his speed in the air which makes it easy to predict his recovery, so you just have to hope for a trade or a favorable exchange if they are competent players with good reactions (Bair is the best bet since it last a while and can beat other moves).

 

[Blue Mage]

I played a lot of matches with a buddy of mine today (a Marth player), and I feel like I did fairly well considering he was the first person to play against my Kirby. Of course, lack of MU experience as Kirby meant I kept running into a lot of things like Fsmashes and Dtilts (although I tried to take the advice C. Rabbit posted in another thread, which was to bait out the Dtilt and Fair), I also got bopped pretty bad on recovery, but on the stage I felt like I could hold my ground pretty well, and edgeguarding wasn't too bad. I got a couple nice Inhale gimps, as well as a Dthrow > sweetspot Side B with a nice read lol. I kept jumping around too much, but I guess that's a side effect of being a Puff main, heh.

But all in all, I really love Kirby, he's so much fun to play. Definitely one of my favorites over most of the other characters I play. I think I might play him more against my friends to see how well I do.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I missed evo because I was in Korea...

 

[ChivalRuse]

One thing that is bothersome about the Marth matchup is that f-smash is difficult to punish. WD oos > grab is definitely a punish, but you aren't getting more than an u-throw > positional advantage from that. I guess we should start doing WD oos > turn around up-tilt to punish f-smashes. >_>

 

[Plunder]

One thing that is bothersome about the Marth matchup is that f-smash is difficult to punish. WD oos > grab is definitely a punish, but you aren't getting more than an u-throw > positional advantage from that. I guess we should start doing WD oos > turn around up-tilt to punish f-smashes. >_>

At certain percentages you can carry Marth across the stage with multiple FH double Bairs (his Weight and fall speed are perfect for juggling them just like with Falcon's Nairplane).

At low percents percents strong SHFFL Bair right before landing then FH strong Bair into another Bair and repeat as long as you can before then DI out or are too far to follow up.

At higher percents FH FF Bair for weak hit, then FH double Bair at least 1 or 2 times.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, the juggles are useful. But they're hard to set up when you're facing Marth, which is typically the case when in neutral since he's more likely to f-smash you when you're moving toward him than away.

 

[Plunder]

You can OoS cross up since the Bair pretty much covers Kirby's entire body, If you get the reverse hit you can continue it backwards as normal, but if you get the normal hit you have to try advance forwards to get another reverse bair or dair into nothing or a tilt.

However most of the time I am on the other side since I tend to roll instead of shielding against Marths on the rare occasion I play Kirby (same with spot dodge). Roll is usually a very bad tactic and especially over using it, but against Marth as we all know it's actually effective and Kirby's has a good speed and distance to maneuver around Marth's short hitbox windows. It sort of invalidates a lot of what Marth's autopilot, same with crouch.

But when you play Kirby I think you have to come to terms that you aren't going to get glorious punish combos or even have the speed to follow up on anything. It's just a battle of attrition and spacing, Kirby actually does have the fast moves and priority on some of them to get the job done. I tend to just focus on getting them off stage ASAP and then edge guarding them into submission since Kirby has a stellar off stage game.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Rolling into Marth is not good - that's just a misconception. It worked on Blur's Marth, but that doesn't mean suddenly that's the meta for that matchup. Simply because bad Marth players don't punish rolls or get poor punishes doesn't validate it as a tactic. As an occasional mixup, it is quite reasonable. But as a bread and butter tactic, there's no way it will pass against a Marth that knows what they're doing.

These days, most of the clever Marth's are very good at sharking for rolls.

 

[Plunder]

Rolling into Marth is not good - that's just a misconception. It worked on Blur's Marth, but that doesn't mean suddenly that's the meta for that matchup. Simply because bad Marth players don't punish rolls or get poor punishes doesn't validate it as a tactic. As an occasional mixup, it is quite reasonable. But as a bread and butter tactic, there's no way it will pass against a Marth that knows what they're doing.

These days, most of the clever Marth's are very good at sharking for rolls.

You can't shark for rolls and cover all the other options at the same time. Just like people who claim crouch canceling beats everything in a certain MU therefore you win....well you can't be crouching the entire match. I'm not even referring to Blur it's obvious he doesn't know how to play the MU.

We'll just have to disagree on this, but it works for me (perhaps I haven't played similar clever Marth's you've played Kirby against). Otherwise you're just going to get D-tilted, F-smashed, and grabbed into oblivion. You can't shield marth's insane grab range (he can grab you out of your SH approach especially SH fair), you're not going to get sweet spotted by Marth out of roll unless they have impeccable movement, reactions and spacing. Marth can just IASA D-tilt and jab pressure you into submission if you don't utilize spot dodge or roll ever. You have to mix up of course, being unpredictable goes a long way and staying close and behind to Marth is not where he wants you.

 

[ChivalRuse]

All that I know is that if Peach players rolling into my Marth doesn't work, it certainly won't with Kirby.

You can literally just d-tilt as Marth, and you have time to turn around grab a roll.

 

[Plunder]

Chival c'mon if the Marth is atacking or about to commit to an attack as you are rolling or about to roll/spot dodge he can't do anything about it.

I'll tell you what let's play this game, tell me what you think is a better option than mixing up with roll or spot dodge in neutral against a Marth and I will tell you how a Marth beats it every-time with hypothetical theorycrafting.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox or Falco could do the same thing in the Marth matchup. Yet they don't. Can you explain to me why that is?

 

[Plunder]

Well to be honest I can't believe you are even asking such a silly question....

They have like 1000x better options than Kirby to get in on Marth.....such as FAR SUPERIOR speed both horizontally and vertically and a 1 frame no lag partially invincible shine. Not to mention their moves have way more priority and are much faster. Oh and they have LASERS!

All of that. Sorry I got kind of riled up there.

 

[ChivalRuse]

See, I don't think that's the case at all. Just because Fox and Falco are better characters doesn't mean they don't have to respect Marth's ability to wall them out with disjointed hitboxes. Falco does not have better horizontal movement than Kirby. Actually, with wavedashing, Kirby is faster on the ground. Sure, they both jump higher and faster than Kirby, but Kirby is actually airborne on the same frame as Fox, meaning a lot of aerial and wd out of shield punishes are the same.

I think that Kirby's neutral in the Marth matchup still needs to be explored a LOT more.

 

[Plunder]

See, I don't think that's the case at all. Just because Fox and Falco are better characters doesn't mean they don't have to respect Marth's ability to wall them out with disjointed hitboxes. Falco does not have better horizontal movement than Kirby. Actually, with wavedashing, Kirby is faster on the ground. Sure, they both jump higher and faster than Kirby, but Kirby is actually airborne on the same frame as Fox, meaning a lot of aerial and wd out of shield punishes are the same.

I think that Kirby's neutral in the Marth matchup still needs to be explored a LOT more.

Well I'll say it again....Falco has lasers....really REALLY good lasers that, you know......auto cancel

And yes he is faster, his run speed and most importantly his air speed on SHFFL approach. Falcon coming in with a SHFF Laser or a Nair is SOOO much better than anything Kirby can hope for as an approach including SH Fair.

Most importantly his full hop and FF speed are very hard to react to. He can also mix up with DJ, it's also faster then a human can react to, then he can FF and Bair or Nair or Shine you before you can react. These are just a few of the massive reasons why he's so high on the tier list and exponentially better than Kirby.

 

[Comet7]

i think rolling is good as a mixup once per game / set with about any character (even then, characters like spacies often have better options), but it really isn't that hard to cover for anyone not named bowser if you're aware that people will try to do it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sure, lasers are good. But Marth can still wall him out with SH fair and SH nair out of shield. So Falco will often still have to shield or move away from Marth to avoid getting hit. Rolling into him ... not so much.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I personally never roll in versus anyone with Kirby. It's not a good offensive option. It may work sometimes, but rolling is more for positioning.

 

[Plunder]

I personally never roll in versus anyone with Kirby. It's not a good offensive option. It may work sometimes, but rolling is more for positioning.

Well this is pretty much a complete lie man. I've seen you face high level Marths, you rolled in quite a bit (bad spacing on them especially against PPU) but you actually used quite a few spot dodges to grab or tilts that worked. I thin actually if you had spaced some better rolls and mixed up with spot dodges at key points it would have been even closer with PPU.

Hack made it work against Ice (and other Marths if you've watched the Swedish VoDs), Borp makes it work against most of the locals and regional mid level players at MOALs, Mooninite used them effectively twice. I've even see Leffen and Armada employ the tactic effectively (Nizro too). I know Triple R DEFINITELY uses both to great effect.

I'm not saying do it all the time or roll right in front of them like a scrub but roll to tilt/grab and spot dodge to anything are some of Kirby's only true mix ups to get in on a competent Marth with good spacing (mixed in with WD and DD of course). Sometimes it can be your only option when you're playing an aggro Marth who's just throwing out attacks, you're eventually going to catch them hitting you with a sourspot or in lag so you can punish after a dodge or roll. Coming in with only DD or WD grab or Dtilt can be beat out by Marth's Dtilt and Jab, from the air Bairing and Fairing you are going to get walled out with Marth's Fairs and Nairs.

 

[ChivalRuse]

WD oos is better usually.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I got PPU down to last stock the last tournament I played him at. It's just the roll -> tilt is so cheesy and shouldn't be working. So many characters have hit boxes that will cover the roll which'll end up with punishment.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Also, a lot of Marth players are dumb and just spam aerials because they think they can get away with it against Kirby just because he's bad. I just wavedash toward them and dash dance grab their aerial and uthrow them. They usually come down with another aerial and I grab that too or get under them with bair.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Really good Marths will stay grounded which is where you'll feel the heat. LOL

But it's a good thing not too many Marth players know to do that vs Kirby.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Something about low tiers makes people want to style on them. So usually they won't play the grounded d-tilt game. Even if they do, Kirby's grab range is godlike. You can often shield grab it if they slightly mis-space. Wavedashing backward while shield is good for this reason too because of SH bair out of shield.

 

[Plunder]

Don't know if you guys caught this vid yet, actually pretty funny (great editing)

 

[Noce]

Don't know if you guys caught this vid yet, actually pretty funny (great editing)

That ending is amazing. Made me laugh so hard