Kirby General Discussion

[ChivalRuse]

Kirby moves really fast. Like, he's surprisingly fast if you do boosted wavedashes (by dashing first). This could be critically useful for punishing things like Puff's spaced bair, as you need a lot of speed to catch her as she is retreating. Also, for just controlling more of the stage. If you catch people by surprise, you can also sneak in u-tilts at awkward positions on their shield or hit them out of their movement.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Armada switched to Sheik game 2 though...

 

[Plunder]

I think Sheik would probably be one of the easier melee characters to play drunk, since there isn't much effort needed to do well with her. That and I actually think Kirby invalidates a lot of standard Sheik stuff, which is interesting.

Was Armada actually getting smashed at the Foundry like others or is that just what everyone is implying?

 

[Triple R]

Anyways,

Congrats to Triple R for 97th place at The Big House 5!!!

I'm so proud of you. Bringing Kirby up.

Thanks for the support. Are you going to be at Genesis? I'm about 60% going at this point.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I'm 100% going to Genesis Triple R

 

[Ministry]

played Kirby a bit at our weekly. duke, Randall and Chivalruse and any other fellow Kirby mains, give me some advice?

Vs Puff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqbHQI0Lnjg&index=20&list=PL65IMg9w1B_hbgdfEX_7iYYQ68Evt_sgC
Vs Doc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIPbt7i3TEc&index=7&list=PL65IMg9w1B_hbgdfEX_7iYYQ68Evt_sgC

I don't feel puff is that bad, but like duke said. its more patience and spacing and less gimps.
Doc i don't know what to feel. I think he is very strong on the ground and can CC punish a lot. I have a hard time with him.

any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I generally play more grounded versus puff. Contesting back-airs as Kirby is suicide. One thing Kirby out-does puff of is tilts. If you can maneuver just outside of Puff's aerial range, you can inch in d-tilts and f-tilts as you read her landing. The best punish for rest is probably hammer. You can't gimp puff and recovering is so tricky. Don't ever overextend when you recover because your jumps are more scarce than puff's. On that note, I'd rather play vs a good Fox than a good Puff...

As for Doc, I generally keep my back faced away from him. Pills will force you to jump so Battlefield, DL 64, and FoD are great choices for stages. Though he can crouch cancel aerials, you can mix up your approach/stuff d-tilts and actually steal his pills. Once his percentage goes up, you can shield pressure him with b-air to u-tilt and b-air to retreating b-air. I don't like that you can't grab his f-air, so rolling away is the way to go. Rolling away situationally is safer because Doc is kinda slow and can't really follow up. Once his percentage is high enough for b-throws you can get double jump reads and di-trap follow ups. So yeeeah, you wanna try grabbing and stuffing tilts for the most part.

Old video of me vs Imyt (NorCal Doc): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT3tSrWgt1U

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ministry Just to add to C.Rabbit's observations, d-tilt (and Kirby's crouch in general) are good vs Puff because of her lightness. She gets pushed far away from you if hit by a d-tilt, even if crouch cancelling, and cannot punish it. Furthermore, you can duck under Puff's SH bair depending on the elevation that they swing from. This is useful particularly because without having to worry about shield stun > wavedash in and punish, you can simply wait for them to whiff and wavedashing in > grab/d-tilt/d-smash.

I find your use of aerial hammer interesting, but also worrying. An aware opponent can react to getting hit by the hammer if they are grounded and crouch cancel or simply hit you when you are landing. Also, if they are in the air, sometimes they will recover before you and can nair you on the way down. Grounded hammer does not have a good enough hitbox to warrant throwing it out in the neutral. I only recommend using it if it will kill 100% AND if you read the opponent's approach. It is like trying to win the lottery if you just do it randomly.

If you want to play a full stock against Puff and actually end up taking hers first, you have to move a lot on the ground and eventually bait her into an unsafe aerial that you can grab or tilt. If she full jumps, sometimes you can get under her and do a rising SH bair to intercept her hurtbox geometrically. In short, you have to use your fast ground speed to check mate her repeatedly, which is difficult considering there are going to be a lot of instances where you can get cornered and have to simply shield her bair and regroup afterward.

Against Doc, you don't necessarily have to jump to avoid pills. If Doc does a high pill, you can stand behind the last bounce in highest point of the parabola, and the pill will simply jump over your head and not touch you. Obviously, you have to be careful about your spacing if you do this, because Doc might be counting on this and use it as an opportunity to pin you down. Alternatively, lower pills can be easily turnaround u-tilted through. Doc's shield pressure without pills isn't that good, so if you think Doc will approach with an aerial you can usually just shield it and shield grab/bair out of shield. Try to not let Doc roll in when cornered, because cornering Doc is not easy to do, and you will regret letting him get back to center stage.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

You can nair/bair into pills too.

 

[Plunder]

Kirby's Bair is so amazing against Pills and Turnips. Even from the front I know his Bair can nullify Turnips 100% of the time, pillz seem to be able to hit sometimes.

*edit*

Also C. Rabbit I just watched that set with Imyt again. What a lame salty handshake he gave you, but hey people bring it upon themselves when they think so little of these supposed bottom tier characters. Their uninformed low opinion of the character is what brings on the personal feeling of embarrassment when they lose. At least show respect I say, regardless of character choice it should be acknowledged that you are an excellent player and that Kirby has some stuff.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I'll be super super honest. I think Kirby is a mid tier character.

 

[Ministry]

thanks al ot guys, i guess i need to play a lot more grounded with dtilts

 

[Triple R]

Quick few comments:

- Be careful dthrowing Jiggs. At low % she should be able to rest punish you for it. If Jiggs is weaving in with a bair and then weaving out during cooldown, wavedash in after the bair and try to tilt. It can catch some people off guard.

- I think it would help in both matchups to throw in a bunch of tomahawk grabs. Jiggs is likely to shield when you are near, and Doc is likely trying to crouch cancel something as you come down. Try grabbing them before they can figure out you're switching up your game.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The only thing I'm worried about is that most Doc players don't actually react to what option you choose. They just hold down and mash d-smash on the c-stick. So tomahawking seems unlikely to work most of the time. I'm curious to see how effective Kirby's dair is vs crouch cancelling, and at what percents it actually is worth using.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

A huge huge huge priority for you is to steal pills. Tilts. Very low bairs.

Dairs are situationally unsafe.

 

[Triple R]

The only thing I'm worried about is that most Doc players don't actually react to what option you choose. They just hold down and mash d-smash on the c-stick. So tomahawking seems unlikely to work most of the time.

If they are truly just mashing dsmash, just jump and bait it out. Punish from there. A smart player will wait. No need to discuss someone who is stupidly mashing cstick.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I LOVE YOU RANDALL!!!

 

[ChivalRuse]

I meant that they will mash c-stick after you are in a position to get hit by it, which would beat tomahawking.

 

[Triple R]

I meant that they will mash c-stick after you are in a position to get hit by it, which would beat tomahawking.

In my mind, I think 'would' in your sentence should be 'could.' Dsmashing as a Kirby gets into range will not always hit Kirby. In one of my comments above, I should have said to simply tomahawk instead of tomahawk grab. My point was to mix it up.

If you go into a match and the first thing that happens is you bair him and he CC dsmashes you, ok, you learned he will CC you. Then as a second attempt you try to empty hop, a bunch of different things could happen. You could land and shield before the dsmash comes out, you could get hit, you could actually grab him first, or a bunch of other things. If you win the exchange, good job. If you don't win the exchange cause he dsmashed whatever you tried to do, you learned what you are talking about: he will simply dsmash when you get into range. I would argue getting hit and learning he will be hitting dsmash when you get into range no matter what is well worth the damage you took.

It's all really about mixing it up and learning how (or how not) your opponent responds. I don't want to get into a big discussion on if dsmash will beat tomahawking when it all depends on the players reactions and brains.

 

[Dodger]

So I was fighting a Ganon at my last tourney and accidentally did a fthrow Kirbycide when we were both on our last stock. My impression was that this ALWAYS led to sudden death. However, we were on a 20XX set up and the game by passed the winner screen and went directly to character select. I was declared the winner because my stock was still visible when the game ended, while the ganon's was not.

Did I win because it was a 20XX set up?

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

So I was fighting a Ganon at my last tourney and accidentally did a fthrow Kirbycide when we were both on our last stock. My impression was that this ALWAYS led to sudden death. However, we were on a 20XX set up and the game by passed the winner screen and went directly to character select. I was declared the winner because my stock was still visible when the game ended, while the ganon's was not.

Did I win because it was a 20XX set up?

Dodger!!! Did you come back from the dead?!?

Anyways.... 20xx does not matter. The reason why Ganon died first is because when you fthrow, Ganon's hurtbox actually displaces itself below Kirby's. Transitively that means Ganon's hurtbox will touch the blast zone first. Ganon touching the blast zone first = Kirby wins the game. Once Ganon hit's the blast zone you can ACTUALLY JUMP OR FINAL CUTTER to cancel the Kirbycide. Unfortunately the throw is really bad and jumping or UpB won't do anything due to the crazy momentum.

FUN FACT: When Kirby does the upthrow, his hurtbox is below your opponent and he will touch the blastzone first.

With Kirby's swallowcide, it's character dependent on who's hurtbox will be lower than yours when airborne. You can actually kirbycide cancel by jumping within the few frames you have between your opponent touching the blast zone and before you touch it yourself to survive the Kirbycide REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPPONENT'S MASHING AND INPUTS.

 

[Dodger]

Heh. I've been going to tourneys on a semi regular basis for the last year. And here on and off as well. =)

I know the swallowcide cancel window is dependent on the opponent's size. But it sounds like you're saying Kirby will always win with f/b throw kirbycides. But I know this isn't the case because of the innumerable times I've forced sudden death with them. Unless maybe I inadvertently jumped and SD cancelled?

 

[Comet7]

Could you tell me what the frame window is for Fox and Pichu?

Oh and Marth please.

 

[Dodger]

Fox is 3 frames (hard but definitely do-able).Marth is 4 frames. Pichu is a 0 framer, which means you'll go to Sudden Death. For the rest of the cast there's this handy thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/swallowcide-what-you-should-already-know.80258/

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

HMMMMM..... I think it depends on your opponent's inputs, height of drop, and %. I assume the cases when it's a sudden death or where you lose is when you happen to hit the blast zone at the same time... but Idk now I'm guessing lol

 

[Dodger]

So I did some good old fashioned testing, and it turns out Kirby wins after f/b throw kirbycides vs Ganon, Bowser, DK, Marth/Roy*, Samus, Mewtwo and Falcon but NOT Peach, Link, G&W Fox or Mario.

Tested on lvl 1 CPUs at 100+% on battlefield.

*I had one anomalous game vs. Roy where it went to sudden death. Not sure how to explain this as I assume if he had broken out I would have lost. Hmmm...

 

[Triple R]

I would test different stages too. I've had uthrowing kirbycides give me different results before. I'm not sure how bottom blastzones could be different, but smash is weird already.

 

[Comet7]

maybe he broke out a frame before hitting the blast zone?

 

[Dodger]

So I tried both forward and back throws on each of the 6 standard tourney stages vs. Bowser, DK, Falcon, Ganon, Samus, Marth, Roy and Mewtwo. I found that Forward throw kirbycides are SIGNIFICANTLY less safe. F throws result in sudden death on every tested character on Yoshi's Story. Back throws result in sudden death on Yoshis vs. Marth Roy and Mewtwo.

In fact f throw is NEVER safe on Marth on any level. And vs. Roy and Mewtwo only safe on Battlefield.

Back throw is safe vs. Marth on BF, FD, FoD and DL. Not safe on Yoshis or Poke Stadium. It's the same for Roy and Mewtwo.

Back throw is safe on all the other tested characters on all levels.

I know that's complicated so rules of thumb is that back throws are much safer then forward throws. Be wary against Marth, Roy and Mewtwo on Yoshi's Story and Pokemon Stadium because even back throws are unsafe there.

Also check with your TO for suicide kill rules. I don't know what the standard rule set says. They may give you the win regardless of what the game says or they may not.

 

[ChivalRuse]

In my mind, I think 'would' in your sentence should be 'could.' Dsmashing as a Kirby gets into range will not always hit Kirby. In one of my comments above, I should have said to simply tomahawk instead of tomahawk grab. My point was to mix it up.

If you go into a match and the first thing that happens is you bair him and he CC dsmashes you, ok, you learned he will CC you. Then as a second attempt you try to empty hop, a bunch of different things could happen. You could land and shield before the dsmash comes out, you could get hit, you could actually grab him first, or a bunch of other things. If you win the exchange, good job. If you don't win the exchange cause he dsmashed whatever you tried to do, you learned what you are talking about: he will simply dsmash when you get into range. I would argue getting hit and learning he will be hitting dsmash when you get into range no matter what is well worth the damage you took.

It's all really about mixing it up and learning how (or how not) your opponent responds. I don't want to get into a big discussion on if dsmash will beat tomahawking when it all depends on the players reactions and brains.

Makes sense. But shielding Doc's d-smash and wavedashing out of shield to punish it usually is less rewarding for me than him landing the d-smash. A lot of times, the risk vs reward in mixup situations seems to favor better characters, which is why I tend to avoid mixups if I can help it. Instead, I try to simply play safe while maintaining enough stage presence to make it hard for the opponent to camp me effectively.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey Kirby friends, might I ask a question that may or may not be dumb?

I keep looking at those few similarities between Kirby and Jigglypuff and started to wonder about something. Could Kirby play super insanely campy at the ledge and do pretty good like Jiggs can? Kinda like what we saw from Hbox at Evo 2015?

Just curious as to how you guys think on this and if it could work or would be effective.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Hey Kirby friends, might I ask a question that may or may not be dumb?

I keep looking at those few similarities between Kirby and Jigglypuff and started to wonder about something. Could Kirby play super insanely campy at the ledge and do pretty good like Jiggs can? Kinda like what we saw from Hbox at Evo 2015?

Just curious as to how you guys think on this and if it could work or would be effective.

Hey SmashCapps. Glad to see you in these boards. It is possible for Kirby to play campy at the ledge, however his horizontal mobility is really hindering him from playing like Jiggs. Jigglypuff can cover a lot more distance into the stage as well as grabbing the ledge from further out. Since Kirby is more of a ground based character, I'd recommend not doing this.

 

[Kaddy]

I went to Tipped Off 11 and entered the charity side tournament where you can only play on Mushroom Kingdom 2. I ended up getting 3rd. I beat Colbol 2-0 in Winner Semis, lost to Articanus (my sensei) 3-0 in Winner Finals, and lost to Colbol in Loser Finals 3-1.

I'm having trouble recalling how exactly I managed to beat Colbol the first time around (there was a lot of D-Throw tech chasing), so I think a lot of it was him familiarizing himself with the match-up. Like game 2 he went Fox and was really putting on the pressure once we both got to last stock, but he didn't respect swallow from the edge and lost because of it. Oh yeah he went Falcon game 1.

I think our losers finals set was either recorded or streamed, so maybe I can find a link to that later.

Mushroom Kingdom 2 ftw.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well I guess there goes my plans for "great evil" Cereal Rabbit

You see due to my hand problems everyone always says play Jigglypuff since she's "not as technical" but I honestly hate playing Jiggs. But for some reason I do sort of like Kirby so I was trying to figure out if there was some way I could extend my normally 'lame' play to him. Hrm....

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Kirby has a unique neutral game that consists of crouching versus most characters. Characters that he can't crouch are Fox, Puff, Peach, ICs, etc. I'd say Kirby crouches as much as puffs are on the ledge. It's a different kind of lame, but it isn't the same.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I made a tutorial after I did some Kirby theorycrafting with a friend of mine. Maybe it includes some stuff yall haven't been thinking about? Either way let me know what you guys think. Hopefully it's good.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Wow thanks for the shout outs and great content! I really want to release a video like this soon. Haha.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If I saw a really great video series that was a guide for Melee Kirby, I wonder how fast it'd be on the front page...

(Hint: Very Fast)

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I submitted it on the Melee subreddit first, but I guess I'll throw it up on the main one.

Some other stuff I discovered while playing Kirby, I guess:

• Powershield smash turn perfect wavedash back uptilt will punish Marth's forward smash every time, even at tipper ranges. If you're ballsy enough to risk powershielding a tipper it's great, but hey, I did it successfully twice in real time play despite the fact that I TAS'd it to test the concept first and I know that it's guaranteed. Getting used to powershielding and then smashturning is really weird but it feels so good.
• Shield SDIing toward your opponent, perfect wavedashes out of shield and Kirby's really good grab range make a lot of stuff unsafe and easily grabbable, including Marth fsmash, Sheik dsmash, neutral and retreating Marth fairs, Marth nairs. If an opponent attempts to cross up your shield, Shield SDI back ward, wavedash backward or down out of shield and then uptilt for a meaty punish. Shield SDI is risky because a missed input will force a really scrubby looking roll, but it's super worth it to get in on Marths in the neutral game
• Reverse bair is fun! So much fun.
• Sometimes running up smash works on floaties, although it looks dumb
• Low Falco laser grab and low laser turnaround up tilt work like Sheik autocancel needles, and both are good shield pressure mixups
• Powershield drop down uair is the optimal punish to Marth utilt and certain spacings of fsmash. Also works on Sheik utilt, usmash, and ftilt on Fountain of Dreams
• Platform cancel aerial hammer jab resets the whole platform, and you can do it from below the platform too, because of the slight vertical boost it gives you. nice mix-up to convert off of utilt knocking someone on to a platform. gotta be careful against sheiks and marths though, they can just nair or fair you out of it because it has so little hitstun
• Shield drop inhale is very unsafe but I've never seen anyone predict it so I get lucky sometimes. Not that having Marth's neutral B is very useful, but eh

Cereal Rabbit let me know if you want any help with filming or editing, I did a full length Bowser guide a while back and I'd be willing to team up for a Kirby guide too if you want.

 

[Kaddy]

Yay for more Kirby content! I'll contribute any way I can. (although I'm not sure what that may be)