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Kirby General Discussion
- Thread starter Xiivi
- Start date
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
One thing that Kirby mains MUST MUST MUST have is a mastery of sweet spot hammer. It's Kirby's optimal punish.
http://gfycat.com/WholeComfortableAcaciarat
http://gfycat.com/WholeComfortableAcaciarat
Plunder
Smash Ace
Such a lovely hammer
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
Across the board with most Kirby footage I see a serious lack of the platform tech chase on reaction. It's an absolutely necessary addition to Kirby's punish game in the spacie match-ups. Triple R is the only one I've seen get serious mileage out of it and even then his consistency isn't where it needs to be. I'll give some platform tech chase tips from my experience.
After inputting dthrow, your first task is to react to their DI in the small amount of time before they are forced to tech. Specifically, if they DI behind, you have a four frame reaction window to input your turnaround so you're in position to grab DI behind tech in place shine, so it is important to be able to quickly recognize when they are DIing to land behind you.
Second, you have to determine whether or not they tech or missed tech. For every character, any tech input will produce a small yellow flash. Any missed tech will produce a green shockwave underneath the opponent. In my opinion this is the most important thing to watch for when you're attempting to make this determination. Observe these two gifs showing Falco's tech in place and missed tech neutral stand in slow motion.
http://i.imgur.com/brv3bPP.webm
http://i.imgur.com/Y912pjw.webm
Third, once you are aware that they have successfully teched, you must distinguish between tech in place, tech away, and tech in, as these will all have the smallest reaction windows for a successful regrab. This imgur album shows the first five frames of Fox's tech animations in slow motion. Like I said in the video, Fox or Falco's feet are the most visually distinctive part of each animation, and watching them closely will allow you to determine their tech option as quickly as possible. If his feet stay mostly straight up in the air, it's a tech in. If his feet come apart, it's a tech in place. If his feet scrunch in towards his body, it's tech away. Internalize these animations and memorize them. LET THEM BECOME A PART OF YOU.
If you have determined that they missed tech, you have a number of options. Although it is sub-optimal, as I explained in the video, jab resetting as soon as you see missed tech will allow you to skip having react to their get up option after missed tech. However, at higher levels of play, your opponents will start SDIing the jab reset up and rolling or jumping out, which essentially ends your tech chase. A true tech chase champion never jab resets; Kirby can still react to every missed tech option on reaction on platforms without giving your opponent the opportunity to escape with SDI.
Simply waiting on missed tech is really stressful, as it forces you to rely on a lot of mental fortitude, patience, and focus. When you're just starting to practice this method you will probably lose to get-up attack or neutral stand spotdodge a lot, but don't let that discourage you. You can react to the start of Fox's get up attack animation with shield, or alternatively, you can shield as soon as you see missed tech. Once you're in shield, you will either shield the get-up attack and get a free grab, wait for them to neutral get-up and then shield grab them at the end, or react to a get up roll with a wavedash out of shield grab, wavedash out of shield smash turn grab, or simply shield grab if you're positioned correctly. If you're at a low enough percent, you can crouch as soon as you see missed tech. This allows you to crouch cancel get up attack and grab, and grabbing from a crouch is really easy so if they neutral get up you'll be fine too. If they get up roll behind you, you will have to dash backwards out of a crouch, which is a tough input to get used to but it still works.
Aside from waiting for you to screw up, spacies will often attempt to escape the tech chase by tech rolling to the edge of a platform and then DIing off the platform after your next dthrow. You can counter this by making a conscious effort to space yourself a fair distance away from the edge of the platform and relying on Kirby's BALLER standing grab range to pull them back in. I demonstrate this optimal spacing in the Kirby video I posted. If however, you end up getting a dthrow too close to the edge, and you are worried that they might be able to DI off the platform in that position, you can dash back towards the center of the platform, pivot and regrab, all within your reaction window. I demonstrate this reaction at roughly 1:04 in the video. Get used to doing this, as it will prolong your tech chase and lead to meatier damage.
I stand by the claim that you can always pummel at least once regardless of their mash speed, but if they're really good at it, you may need to buffer dthrow on the cstick while you're inputting the pummel. If they don't mash at all, feel free to pummel twice. You earned it. Treat yo'self!
If you have 20xx, which you should, the best way to practice these tech chases is to go to the modded Fourside stage, grab a random tech cpu Falco on the crane platform and then tech chase the **** out of him. The platform is large enough that you will have to have tight reactions and solid dash and JC grab inputs, but still small enough that you can cover everything. The camera angle is nice and close so you can watch for the animations, which will help you get used to seeing them. If you can get eight consecutive regrabs after the initial grab, you're a champ. If you can do that five times in a row, which is my personal record, then you're totally set.
I am still not knowledgeable enough about Kirby's punish game to say much about the best way to end tech chases, but hopefully you guys can put your heads together and figure that out. I hope this was helpful in some way.
After inputting dthrow, your first task is to react to their DI in the small amount of time before they are forced to tech. Specifically, if they DI behind, you have a four frame reaction window to input your turnaround so you're in position to grab DI behind tech in place shine, so it is important to be able to quickly recognize when they are DIing to land behind you.
Second, you have to determine whether or not they tech or missed tech. For every character, any tech input will produce a small yellow flash. Any missed tech will produce a green shockwave underneath the opponent. In my opinion this is the most important thing to watch for when you're attempting to make this determination. Observe these two gifs showing Falco's tech in place and missed tech neutral stand in slow motion.
http://i.imgur.com/brv3bPP.webm
http://i.imgur.com/Y912pjw.webm
Third, once you are aware that they have successfully teched, you must distinguish between tech in place, tech away, and tech in, as these will all have the smallest reaction windows for a successful regrab. This imgur album shows the first five frames of Fox's tech animations in slow motion. Like I said in the video, Fox or Falco's feet are the most visually distinctive part of each animation, and watching them closely will allow you to determine their tech option as quickly as possible. If his feet stay mostly straight up in the air, it's a tech in. If his feet come apart, it's a tech in place. If his feet scrunch in towards his body, it's tech away. Internalize these animations and memorize them. LET THEM BECOME A PART OF YOU.
If you have determined that they missed tech, you have a number of options. Although it is sub-optimal, as I explained in the video, jab resetting as soon as you see missed tech will allow you to skip having react to their get up option after missed tech. However, at higher levels of play, your opponents will start SDIing the jab reset up and rolling or jumping out, which essentially ends your tech chase. A true tech chase champion never jab resets; Kirby can still react to every missed tech option on reaction on platforms without giving your opponent the opportunity to escape with SDI.
Simply waiting on missed tech is really stressful, as it forces you to rely on a lot of mental fortitude, patience, and focus. When you're just starting to practice this method you will probably lose to get-up attack or neutral stand spotdodge a lot, but don't let that discourage you. You can react to the start of Fox's get up attack animation with shield, or alternatively, you can shield as soon as you see missed tech. Once you're in shield, you will either shield the get-up attack and get a free grab, wait for them to neutral get-up and then shield grab them at the end, or react to a get up roll with a wavedash out of shield grab, wavedash out of shield smash turn grab, or simply shield grab if you're positioned correctly. If you're at a low enough percent, you can crouch as soon as you see missed tech. This allows you to crouch cancel get up attack and grab, and grabbing from a crouch is really easy so if they neutral get up you'll be fine too. If they get up roll behind you, you will have to dash backwards out of a crouch, which is a tough input to get used to but it still works.
Aside from waiting for you to screw up, spacies will often attempt to escape the tech chase by tech rolling to the edge of a platform and then DIing off the platform after your next dthrow. You can counter this by making a conscious effort to space yourself a fair distance away from the edge of the platform and relying on Kirby's BALLER standing grab range to pull them back in. I demonstrate this optimal spacing in the Kirby video I posted. If however, you end up getting a dthrow too close to the edge, and you are worried that they might be able to DI off the platform in that position, you can dash back towards the center of the platform, pivot and regrab, all within your reaction window. I demonstrate this reaction at roughly 1:04 in the video. Get used to doing this, as it will prolong your tech chase and lead to meatier damage.
I stand by the claim that you can always pummel at least once regardless of their mash speed, but if they're really good at it, you may need to buffer dthrow on the cstick while you're inputting the pummel. If they don't mash at all, feel free to pummel twice. You earned it. Treat yo'self!
If you have 20xx, which you should, the best way to practice these tech chases is to go to the modded Fourside stage, grab a random tech cpu Falco on the crane platform and then tech chase the **** out of him. The platform is large enough that you will have to have tight reactions and solid dash and JC grab inputs, but still small enough that you can cover everything. The camera angle is nice and close so you can watch for the animations, which will help you get used to seeing them. If you can get eight consecutive regrabs after the initial grab, you're a champ. If you can do that five times in a row, which is my personal record, then you're totally set.
I am still not knowledgeable enough about Kirby's punish game to say much about the best way to end tech chases, but hopefully you guys can put your heads together and figure that out. I hope this was helpful in some way.
Comet7
Smash Lord
wouldn't pivot (on tech roll) up tilt to up air be a good way to end tech chases?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Not so easy to pull off on a reaction tech chase.
Kaddy
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 20, 2007
- Messages
- 203
I think as far as ending the tech chases go, you might have to weigh your options based on factors like what platform you are tech chasing them on and how much you are willing to commit to the attack.
For example, if you're on one of the side platforms for Yoshi's, waiting for a tech roll away from the stage and covering it with a F-Smash or Hammer should either kill the opponent or put them in an awful spot. However, if you are on the top platform of Yoshi's, tipper U-Smash starts looking a lot better.
As for how much you're willing to commit, Hammer is probably Kirby's best punish but it lends itself hard reading the opponent. There's definitely going to be times where you don't have a read on your opponent's next tech, and I think moves like D-Smash and F-Tilt could still serve you really well.
For example, if you're on one of the side platforms for Yoshi's, waiting for a tech roll away from the stage and covering it with a F-Smash or Hammer should either kill the opponent or put them in an awful spot. However, if you are on the top platform of Yoshi's, tipper U-Smash starts looking a lot better.
As for how much you're willing to commit, Hammer is probably Kirby's best punish but it lends itself hard reading the opponent. There's definitely going to be times where you don't have a read on your opponent's next tech, and I think moves like D-Smash and F-Tilt could still serve you really well.
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
I've got a couple tech chasing ideas that don't revolve around re-grabing that I'll eventually make a video for soon... lols
It's just, your opponent will know to DI away and tech away and there's nothing you can do besides not make it there in time to regrab. Totally character dependent though.
It's just, your opponent will know to DI away and tech away and there's nothing you can do besides not make it there in time to regrab. Totally character dependent though.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Even if the opponent techs away and you miss the reaction, you can set up some nice SH fair pressure immediately after.
fatman.spam
Smash Cadet
What are some advanced techniques for Kirby ?
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
Most of Kirby's advanced techniques are pivots, turn arounds, crouching mechanics, and ground movement things. Nothing too fancy. He can cancel his dash attack by grabbing or falling off a platform and holding z. Plus there's an entire spreadsheet of data on Kirbycide technology.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Swallow Falco > SHDLs
With Kirby you really need to master his jumps and be able to Bair either way at any time or wave land on platforms (can also use them to fake an approach then reverse DJ back to FF Bair, wave land, tilt, or empty land grab, etc). On the ledge knowing his jumps well is very important since I believe his edge guard > Bair games is essential to his viability.
With Kirby you really need to master his jumps and be able to Bair either way at any time or wave land on platforms (can also use them to fake an approach then reverse DJ back to FF Bair, wave land, tilt, or empty land grab, etc). On the ledge knowing his jumps well is very important since I believe his edge guard > Bair games is essential to his viability.
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Hey Kirby friends... I got an article I think I'd like to write but I'd need a little help from the Kirby experts. I started work trying to interview three Sm4sh 'Zelda Experts' on their character for an article and I realized if I did the same for Melee Kirby that could be awesome as well. Maybe clear up some misconceptions on the character.
Think some of you would be up for it? I know
Triple R
and
Cereal Rabbit
would make for good choices to chat with, who else might be down?
Think some of you would be up for it? I know
Triple R
and
Cereal Rabbit
would make for good choices to chat with, who else might be down?
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
I've researched a lot of Kirby. If you want a well-informed outsider's opinion I'm willing to help out.
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
I could formulate something. When do you need it by?
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
No rush
Cereal Rabbit
. Since it's not something like a tournament or whatnot we can take time to make it really nice. Here's how the Sm4sh Zelda one turned out (though it went a lot quicker). Hopefully it can drive some folks over to these boards too 
Cereal Rabbit
. Since it's not something like a tournament or whatnot we can take time to make it really nice. Here's how the Sm4sh Zelda one turned out (though it went a lot quicker). Hopefully it can drive some folks over to these boards too 
Triple R
Smash Lord
I'm always down.Hey Kirby friends... I got an article I think I'd like to write but I'd need a little help from the Kirby experts. I started work trying to interview three Sm4sh 'Zelda Experts' on their character for an article and I realized if I did the same for Melee Kirby that could be awesome as well. Maybe clear up some misconceptions on the character.
Think some of you would be up for it? I know
Comet7
Smash Lord
i tried the Kirby vs Zelda MU. it seems like whoever gets a lead can keep it with ease. what does kirby want to do in this MU?
Kaddy
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 20, 2007
- Messages
- 203
Lol one of my training partners is the infamous best Zelda main, Upke, so I'll try to help as much as I can.
Crouching is awesome because it avoids pretty much all of Zelda's grounded moves and you really only need to watch out for D-Smash, D-Tilt, and delayed Fair/Bair (and maybe insta-Fair/Bair. You might want to check) Kirby also has much faster movement than Zelda, so even if she has the lead, Kirby is more than capable of taking it back. D-Tilt is great at poking her, but if you're too close at the low percents she will CC D-Smash you back.
Once you get her offstage, this can actually be tricky in my experience. Her Up+B can go pretty far, so if you hold onto the edge for the edgehog, there's a possibility that she'll just go on stage too far for you to actually punish her while losing stage control. Getting edgeguards on Zelda will probably come down to conditioning/outplaying your opponent. I hate to say that, but it's Kirby, so it's to be expected.
I'll post more later since I'm kinda busy right now.
Crouching is awesome because it avoids pretty much all of Zelda's grounded moves and you really only need to watch out for D-Smash, D-Tilt, and delayed Fair/Bair (and maybe insta-Fair/Bair. You might want to check) Kirby also has much faster movement than Zelda, so even if she has the lead, Kirby is more than capable of taking it back. D-Tilt is great at poking her, but if you're too close at the low percents she will CC D-Smash you back.
Once you get her offstage, this can actually be tricky in my experience. Her Up+B can go pretty far, so if you hold onto the edge for the edgehog, there's a possibility that she'll just go on stage too far for you to actually punish her while losing stage control. Getting edgeguards on Zelda will probably come down to conditioning/outplaying your opponent. I hate to say that, but it's Kirby, so it's to be expected.
I'll post more later since I'm kinda busy right now.
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
WOAH **** YOU KNOW UPKE?
Tell him to stop being lazy and optimize Zelda already. If he protests, just quote that famous saying, "you can't make an omelette without z-powershielding a few falco lasers." Also remind him that he is not good, and say some other mean things about his shoes, or whatever. He needs the negative reinforcement.
Tell him to stop being lazy and optimize Zelda already. If he protests, just quote that famous saying, "you can't make an omelette without z-powershielding a few falco lasers." Also remind him that he is not good, and say some other mean things about his shoes, or whatever. He needs the negative reinforcement.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Just tell Upke that his waifu sucks
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
Upke is love.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Upke was the first person to draw fanart of me
Comet7
Smash Lord
kirby is the easiest thing in the world to draw though
Cereal Rabbit
Smash Lord
Here is some Kirby anime throw back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjGWGWG3rjo
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
MARU
10maru
10maru
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
The other day I was playing my friend's Fox and we went to dreamland, where he camped me for 8 minutes. Any advice for how to handle it? Obviously Fox is really hard to chase. I was able to hard read him a couple times with swallow and try to laser camp back, but then he just took a stock off me. I did gimp him twice though, so we had two stocks each when time ran out.
Kaddy
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 20, 2007
- Messages
- 203
As dumb as it sounds to say this, once in a while aerial side-b can catch them on platforms and trip them up. The pop-up it gives is useful for helping you cover the top platform. Of course this only works very sparingly against decent opponents.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Yeah I hit Kevin a few times with that lol. He laughed so hard every time
Triple R
Smash Lord
Someone linked me this video and I was curious if anyone had seen this before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_djNvPVExM
I personally don't know what triggered this. Anyone know?
I personally don't know what triggered this. Anyone know?
Triple R
Smash Lord
Yeah, saw some of the recent comments on youtube saying it's a 20xx glitch.
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
How's reaction tech chase stuff going,
Triple R
? Earlier we were trying to come up with options to end a platform tech chase on reaction. Jab reset hammer/fsmash were noted, but considering you can SDI Kirby's jab up and roll out it's non optimal, as being prepared to dash jc grab after jabbing to grab SDI up roll away is really really hard. In your experience, have you been able to use stuff like empty pivot utilt or dash crouch downsmash or pivot fsmash to end platform tech chases? Kirby doesn't have a lot of moves that will take a stock outright, but getting fsmashed or utilt --> baired/up-aired is probably good enough to set up for an easy edgeguard. Not sure.
In general, what conditions lead to an opportunity for Kirby to get grabs on platforms or other platform tech chase set-ups? How do you go about transitioning from a platform tech chase to a KO or an edgeguarding sequence?
Triple R
? Earlier we were trying to come up with options to end a platform tech chase on reaction. Jab reset hammer/fsmash were noted, but considering you can SDI Kirby's jab up and roll out it's non optimal, as being prepared to dash jc grab after jabbing to grab SDI up roll away is really really hard. In your experience, have you been able to use stuff like empty pivot utilt or dash crouch downsmash or pivot fsmash to end platform tech chases? Kirby doesn't have a lot of moves that will take a stock outright, but getting fsmashed or utilt --> baired/up-aired is probably good enough to set up for an easy edgeguard. Not sure.In general, what conditions lead to an opportunity for Kirby to get grabs on platforms or other platform tech chase set-ups? How do you go about transitioning from a platform tech chase to a KO or an edgeguarding sequence?
aidspup
Smash Apprentice
i thought i was the only...
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
https://gfycat.com/MetallicCreamyArcticseal
I finally found a legitimate use for aerial hammer. As far as I know this is Kirby's fastest method of grabbing ledge out of a run, and the lasting hit boxes actually make it somewhat useful for edgeguarding a spacie side-B if done pre-emptively. If the spacie side-B's above ledge height intending to land on stage, they will get hit by the hammer disjoint and forced to drop down low and up-B without their double jump, which you can easily drop down and bair with your fresh ledge invincibility. However, because you grab ledge afterward, you will also edgehog any attempts to sweetspot the ledge with side-B. If the spacie has burned their jump and can only recover from slightly above ledge height or lower, this will put you in position to cover everything.
Because you end up on the ledge afterward, you're in an excellent position to cover the spacie's options other than side-B even if you guess wrong with this preemptive coverage. If they shorten to grab ledge from above or air dodge up --> fall to ledge, you can just hold ledge and roll up. If they Firefox to sweetspot the edge, just roll up. If they Firefox to land on stage, just ledge hop bair them with your fresh invincibility. It's pretty solid coverage. Try it out yourselves and let me know your experiences with it.
I finally found a legitimate use for aerial hammer. As far as I know this is Kirby's fastest method of grabbing ledge out of a run, and the lasting hit boxes actually make it somewhat useful for edgeguarding a spacie side-B if done pre-emptively. If the spacie side-B's above ledge height intending to land on stage, they will get hit by the hammer disjoint and forced to drop down low and up-B without their double jump, which you can easily drop down and bair with your fresh ledge invincibility. However, because you grab ledge afterward, you will also edgehog any attempts to sweetspot the ledge with side-B. If the spacie has burned their jump and can only recover from slightly above ledge height or lower, this will put you in position to cover everything.
Because you end up on the ledge afterward, you're in an excellent position to cover the spacie's options other than side-B even if you guess wrong with this preemptive coverage. If they shorten to grab ledge from above or air dodge up --> fall to ledge, you can just hold ledge and roll up. If they Firefox to sweetspot the edge, just roll up. If they Firefox to land on stage, just ledge hop bair them with your fresh invincibility. It's pretty solid coverage. Try it out yourselves and let me know your experiences with it.
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Comet7
Smash Lord
the gif doesn't work
kirby can probably cover sweetspot to ledge and straight to stage with one bair.
kirby can probably cover sweetspot to ledge and straight to stage with one bair.
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CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
Are you sure? It's working for me. Here's an unlisted link to the video.
https://youtu.be/R8dxhN3Ilz0
https://youtu.be/R8dxhN3Ilz0
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
The new video is here. I know there are certain Kirby hats that everyone considers to be worth getting and that some of this video is old information, but I still wanted to demonstrate what every cap is capable of. Honestly I think Inhale is such a bad move for anything but the rare occasions on which you can Kirbycide with it, so in my opinion you're usually better off getting a hat most of the time. Would have liked to say more about Inhale set-ups, but hey, I don't play Kirby. All I've heard of are jab reset inhale, ledge hop inhale (which is a terrible idea) and shield drop inhale (which is pretty slow). I swear, nearly every command grab in Melee is complete garbage.
Let me know what you guys think and what you might want to see in later videos. Thanks again and happy holidays!