Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[Heero Yuy]

Does anybody else feel like Peach is Link's best high-tier matchup? Maybe at least 60-40 in Link's favor? I'm not too sure, since she's my favorite matchup as Link.

 

[bagsntrane]

link is good against peach but its certainly not in his favor. Id say its like marth, but maybe a little worse becasue of the shield pressure peach is able to apply

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I really dunno as I haven't ever played a close set vs a peach, it's either **** or get *****. Anyways what does link have vs peach? He has among the easiest OoS punishes for her dsmash, if you light shield, you can simply shield grab her, this means you should bait her into dsmashing if you find someway how. She is easy to launch and you can keep her in the air with uairs and dash attack. You won't land any long combos, she is very floaty and have an air dodge that is better than all the other characters(except zelda who has the same frame data). She has stronger punish than you, better gimps, worse projectile game worse range. You should play an aggressive "keep away"-game, constantly attack her, never let her get into range. This is hard as good peach players bait you, airdodge something or space with a float to get in. She is also hard to kill IMO, you need to set a vertical launcher, preferably dair, but bomb->dair is for some reason harder to land on peach(and luigi) than all other characters in the game, I often find myself needing to go for a bomb->uair at like 150%+ vs her.

 

[SAUS]

Against Peach, bombs are very powerful. Even though Link is slow, you can often out-maneuver Peach by using platforms. Her air dodge is good, but if you use bombs to force a response, it is very easy to land more hits. Keep her in the air with a combination of projectiles and spaced sword attacks (mostly up-air and forward-air). Bait the air dodge with projectiles and finish with up-airs. Down-air is good for killing early, but don't go for it unless it's off a bomb. Down-throw into up-air is good to kill when she is at high damage.

I would say Marth is a harder matchup. If the Marth stays grounded and shields your projectiles and mostly goes for grabs, it is really hard to keep him away from you. He can easily get stupidly long tech chases with his grab.

I've never fought a Peach that has given me as much trouble as Marth.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Link is slow, peach is slower.

 

[\/entus]

I am having difficulty with the Ice Climbers matchup, one player I faced kept me off edge with desynced ice blocks indefinitely until I froze into an icicle and fell to my death..how do you guys approach the matchup?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I'm camping. and always try to be at an angle 45 degrees in front of and above the ice climbers. At the ledge like that I always just use the invincibility frames and jumps back on to the stage/ stalls for a short period of time.

This is a matchup where you never ever should use your UpB, way too much risk and probably wont kill.

 

[SAUS]

I'm camping. and always try to be at an angle 45 degrees in front of and above the ice climbers. At the ledge like that I always just use the invincibility frames and jumps back on to the stage/ stalls for a short period of time.

This is a matchup where you never ever should use your UpB, way too much risk and probably wont kill.

Agreed. Camp them. Being above them gives them access to powerful up-tilt and up-air. Don't be directly above them. Being on the ground in front of them is bad because that's where they can grab you. Keep your distance or get off the ground. Be extra careful of grabs. If you've killed Nana, use your down-air to kill Popo when he is forced to side-b to recover.

 

[Boondocker]

Woot woot first post! I'm I'm Smashty and I have been playing melee on and off for 10+ years. However, I am just now getting into competitive and I am in the process of choosing a main. Unfortunately, I don't like very many characters. Link is someone that I like but I had a question about him.

Can his jumping hookshot be used as an attack as a way to aid your approach or stop your opponents? Specifically by either short hopping forwards or backwards while using it. It comes out much faster then the bomerang and the start/end lag is pretty small if you time it right. The 6% won't win you games but it gives you alot of reach that you otherwise would not have. At higher percents it can even buy you enough time to pull out a bomb.

 

[Boondocker]

How do you delete a post?

 

[SAUS]

Woot woot first post! I'm I'm Smashty and I have been playing melee on and off for 10+ years. However, I am just now getting into competitive and I am in the process of choosing a main. Unfortunately, I don't like very many characters. Link is someone that I like but I had a question about him.

Can his jumping hookshot be used as an attack as a way to aid your approach or stop your opponents? Specifically by either short hopping forwards or backwards while using it. It comes out much faster then the bomerang and the start/end lag is pretty small if you time it right. The 6% won't win you games but it gives you alot of reach that you otherwise would not have. At higher percents it can even buy you enough time to pull out a bomb.

I don't think you can delete posts.

I've seen one Link use the hookshot as an attack before, but it never really felt very useful. Keep in mind that you can use it out of an air dodge (which is also REALLY good when you are trying to come back to the stage). It allows you to attack even after you've used an air dodge to evade an attack. It's very handy to protect yourself when an opponent is going to hit you after the air dodge.

 

[Sharpoone]

Is there a chat for melee links? I really want to learn him at a comparative level also I have no idea how to play link in teams, and I have tournament next Wednesday any advice?

 

[SAUS]

Is there a chat for melee links? I really want to learn him at a comparative level also I have no idea how to play link in teams, and I have tournament next Wednesday any advice?

There is no chat that I know of. How long have you been playing melee? It takes a lot of time to get good at this game and if you have a tourney next wednesday, there's not that much you could add to your game in the next 4-5 days. I would go to make connections with the community so that you can play with more people (if you haven't found people to play with already). I've always found Link in teams to be pretty bad. He likes to have a lot of space and you basically will never have that in 2v2.

If you have any questions, I can try to answer them for you. Here is probably the best place to ask because other players may see the questions as well. I could give you some general tips, but I don't even know how long you've been playing/how much you know already.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I play Link as a Stock tank and interrupter in 2v2. I try to set up my team mate so he can combo and try to get him out of trouble when he is comboing, otherwise I'm sitting on a ledge and hope someone will get there so I can get a free and quick gimp on them.

 

[Sharpoone]

Well here's the thing I use to play melee a long time ago and now I'm getting back into it so it's starting to come back and I have a general idea of how to play link, but I never played melee teams, I've played brawl teams a lot so I know general stuff. I don't expect to be good or anything by then I just want to help my partner the best I can by then if that makes sense. I know most terms maybe not all the melee ones but I do know a lot about the smash games. I've been playing brawl somewhat competitively for a couple years but I was never really any good. So just some guidance to someone new to competitive melee scene would be most appreciated

 

[Renth]

http://www.twitch.tv/log_renth

streaming with stro before he goes back to PA

 

[DuckPimp]

get on izaw's level

 

[Pinkie_Pie]

Hi I'm new and I have a few questions. 1st question. I used to think Bair was useless and I only just started using it recently and was wondering if its bad to short hop or full jump Bair someone who is on the ground because Bair doesn't seem to work very well unless they are on a platform or in the air. 2nd question. is just wave dashing faster than running? and 3rd question. is using D-tilt spike even worth it because I have never been able to do it

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Hi I'm new and I have a few questions. 1st question. I used to think Bair was useless and I only just started using it recently and was wondering if its bad to short hop or full jump Bair someone who is on the ground because Bair doesn't seem to work very well unless they are on a platform or in the air. 2nd question. is just wave dashing faster than running? and 3rd question. is using D-tilt spike even worth it because I have never been able to do it

1. Bair is great, its quick and comboes and is hard to punish. Short Hop it, Full Jump it, do it in reverse, SHFFL it, ledge hop it for a crossover, edgeguard with it. It has so many uses, not as many as Link's nair, but still a lot.

2. No and yes. If you need to travel across the stage quick its not quicker, but if what you want to do is quickly move yourself so that you can continue pressuring your opponent or make him/her miss an attack wavedashing is way quicker.

3. I use it for edgeguarding vs CF and ganon and in neutral vs characters with little range. It launches in a great trajectory for a follow up when you miss the spike and it hits really low. On stage, if you happen to connect the spike you will be able to combo it into a dair. It also has a small use vs yoshi where you can punish his ledgestall by quickly powershielding or avoiding an egg, aproach and dtilt.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Does anybody here incorporate Link's Haxdash into their play? If so, how do you input it - pressing down or away on the ledge?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Yes, to regain hookshot. I shorthop and then waveland back on ledge.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Yes, to regain hookshot. I shorthop and then waveland back on ledge.

Um yeah I got that but my question is what's your button input on it? Click the control stick down or away from the stage before jumping back onto the stage to waveland?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

It doesnt matter how you ledge hop onto stage. Away or down, both works.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I was just curious which one you find easier but okay.

 

[Thor]

So I'm a Link/Falco player who has some questions about Link:

1) How on earth do we deal with Falco's lasers? My best answer seems to be shield/CC a laser -> DJ pull a bomb -> shield and then try to throw the bomb at them (this is when they are firing lasers as fast as possible from the opposite edge of FD - the worst scenario but I think good for discussion), but this doesn't seem that reliable. I am not very good at powershielding (and I don't really have a setup to practice with), so is there a better answer to his laser game than this or powershielding (of course if he is close enough I can throw the boomerang at him, but...). Our best way to answer Falco/Fox shield pressure would also be appreciated (Fox's dair shine pressure seems unstoppable... rolling feels like the only way out.)

2) Advice for the Sheik MU? Any random advice about combos or whatever are appreciated, but specifically I'd like to know how to deal with the dthrow CG (is there a way I can DI it to reduce the duration of the CG? I feel like I learned this and forgot...) I know I can't avoid followups but I'd like to at least be able to DI to avoid getting chaingrabbed to like 70% or whatever.

3) Advice for the Captain Falcon MU? This character is why I picked up Falco in the first place (that and a ton of people telling me to pick a less sucky character - not exactly polite of them, but it did improve both me as a player and some aspects of my Link) and advice for dealing with him would appreciated (Falco can cope but I don't know how much I actually enjoy my Falco... I like playing Link, except against Falcon (even eating waveshines and ridiculous spacie shield pressure is tolerable, but feeling unable to stop a Falcon's aerials, even trying to place boomerangs and bombs in his way, is frustrating).

4) Random link tech, tricks, any random advice is also appreciated (Can tag me or whatever). I know about a few things, like bomb jumping, but I'm in general not that versatile a Link. I use bombs and boomerangs to try to shut down approach spaces and I don't use his air game as much as I think I should (I know I don't nair or bair or fair enough - my Link is rather grounded since fsmash does so much against spacies [almost certainly a bad habit, even if I frequently get like 30% from it] and I shield a lot) so tricks to implementing his air game [be it, "play more aggressively"], using his tilts and dsmash better (I think dsmash is much better than the amount I use it would suggest, and I almost never ftilt or dtilt) or other random stuff would be helpful.

P.S: If you've made it this far, I'll push my luck and ask about one more thing: Stage striking. Does this striking/banning seem good, or am I missing something important to some of these MUs? Against spacies I strike during stage selection FD (and usually ban it if I win) and then it really depends on the player, but I usually go to Battlefield if it is open and try to leave open Yoshi's and Battlefield when striking second (FoD I leave open instead of Yoshi's if I think they are one of those people that hate FoD, since I don't mind it and I feel battlefield is a good stage for the MU - I can usually tether it fine and it can help me gimp them, which is vital for me). Against Sheik I always strike FD and FoD but I don't know which is better to ban (I usually opt to ban FD if I win, but I don't know how much better it is to play on FoD, or if I just need to adapt a bit and should start banning FoD instead). Against Puff (and I realized after typing this, Peach) I ban FoD and then it depends - often I end up on Battlefield but I have no problems taking a defensive Puff (or Peach) player to Dreamland because I have space to roam and I am patient enough to not KO with dair until 140% or whatever.

 

[MR_Scribble]

Best punishes on Links grabs against spacies and what percents?

Also dealing with falco lasers?

And whats everyone's opinion on making b-up stale? is it worth doing? or is it better to get the bomb recovery? (reminder that PAL up-b isnt a semi spike)

 

[Thor]

Best punishes on Links grabs against spacies and what percents?

Also dealing with falco lasers?

And whats everyone's opinion on making b-up stale? is it worth doing? or is it better to get the bomb recovery? (reminder that PAL up-b isnt a semi spike)

I play NTSC so I take every semi-spike I can get on his up+B, but you already said it is PAL. For the record, Bomb jumping can work against Fox below ledge, Falco below ledge, Falcon, and Marth, but Jiggs and Peach can screw it up with aerials/turnips easily, and Sheik can try to needle the bomb, so it might not be as useful there (if you do it in a really bad spot a desynced Ice Block from ICs also hoses you, and Samus's down+B can too, though that might need to be pre-emptive - I don't know the frame data on that). Fox/Falco can laser the bomb if you bomb jump at a bad height. I also think netting KOs when you can > increasing survivability, since you don't guarantee a KO one way but do the other way, and you win by removing stocks, but it really depends on what other punishes you have - if you are consistent/like bomb-jumpng and can punish with another move, it's probably better to just punish with other stuff.

Although my post above yours should indicate I don't know too much about it, so of course take this with a grain of salt.

I also asked about lasers.

I know at high enough percents, Link's dthrow -> spin attack works (I think about 100%, but someone else probably knows ranges). But beyond that I don't know... I have had success doing dthrow -> read tech roll -> spin attack on Fox at lower percents, but it doesn't seem to work on Falco [or I am too slow] and I also don't know if a regrab is possible. So I would also love input on this question (and on Link's grab game in general - I know I can dsmash Sheik if I dthrow at 30%, but I don't know many of his other grab combos, besides utilting some characters who go high enough).

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Falcos lasors are mostly psychological, you can power shield them or if from far enough just tank them, you can also just jump above them and get onto a platform.

Against Shiek you want to keep center stage and force her off slowly. When you have center stage her fair is less scary as you get a lot off stuff to tech on. Shielding is not very good as her best punish is grab and your OoS options are limited to aerials and bombs mostly, CC works well and dodges are okay. You will have a hard time to outspace her but it is possible as you get disjointed hitboxes and a tad better range on your spacing moves. She is fairly easy to combo and juggle, dmshashes, utilts, uairs and bairs will help you combo her greatly. If it is a stage with a top platform you can platform camp her.

CF is really tough, you cant outspace or outcamp him, but your aproaches are somewhat better as you can shield poke him fairly easy with dsmashes and nairs. If you land a hit you must combo and you must combo devastatingly good, its actually possible for Link to combo CF really well and you need to do that. Shuffle uairs. Its not so much about stopping him as it is to never let him start. Don't shield a lot in this matchup. He can bait your OoS and once you lag he kills. Simply try to win the neutral with nairs, fairs and jabs.

For me bomb Out of Shield and JC thrown bombs as well as knowing the IASA and autoland of the nair in my bones is my core "tech skill" that I think that I get the most of that most other Links could become better at. Fsmashing a lot vs spacies is not a terrible idea, note that you can combo bomb/boomerang -> fsmash -> double fsmash at lower percentages, its great damage and sets up for a tech chase.

I always aim to strike so that YS, FoD or BF is left vs spacies(in that order), the small stages help your combo game a lot and both FoD and YS can mess with spacies tech skill thanks to random elements such as shy guys and those moving platforms.
vs Shiek i try to get to DL64, BF or FoD, mostly so that I can keep far from the ledge and use my defensive camping game.
vs Puff I prefer to play at stages with low ceiling as you can kill her quite early with bomb dair, this means YS, BF and FD are great and you should use PS as your counterpick as this will allow you to both camp and kill her early off the top.
vs Peach you should also use PS for the same reasons as vs Puff, but as for striking I prefer to take her to FD, DL64 or FoD as I feel that Link can outcamp her on most stages. FD being best out of those since you can form a wall she cant get around with projectiles and well spaced attacks.

To be great with Link you need at least two playstyles, one campy and patient for the slow matchups like puff and peach and one for the more fastpaced and combo-oriented vs spacies and CF. I guess you need to work on your speedy playstyle to get around your current problems. Practice shuffling, shield pokes, gimps and comboes.

 

[Thor]

The above was very helpful.

In general, what throws should be used at what percents to punish spacies? Sheik? Captain Falcon? I fell like dthrow -> regrab works on Fox/Falco, is that actually a thing or just my opponents being bad? Same question with dthrow -> up+ on Fox/Falco (I can do it to Fox, not to Falco it seems...)?

How should one best DI Sheik's dthrow to avoid a regrab ASAP? And at what percentage can Link start escaping it? Is it up-behind-Sheik DI or what? [I know she'll get a follow-up but I'd rather give the follow-up then be re-grabbed for even more percent prior to fair or uair or usmash or whatever.]

 

[SAUS]

Best punishes on Links grabs against spacies and what percents?

Links grab punishes on spacies (my numbers will be rough, since I don't know the exact percents windows):

0-15: down throw and hope for a tech chase. Up throw will not knock them down and I'm pretty sure they can just fall down and shine you.

16-45: up throw and then down smash. It is important to always hold up because if they don't DI, you have to up-tilt them instead. You might have to walk a bit towards them after the throw, but it is quite easy once you get the hang of it. If there is a platform above, it sets up the tech chase because it knocks them down.

46-60: up throw into dash attack (or up-tilt when they don't DI). Then try to figure out what to do after the dash attack lands.

61-95: up throw into up air. You have to run before jumping and I think you short hop at the lower range and then you have to full jump at the higher range.

96-105: up throw into running full jump down air. This is a very solid killing combo on FD and pokemon stadium.

106-125: up throw into running double jump forward air. This will at least launch them off stage for the edge guard.

126+: down throw into up-b. Make sure to turn around before you up-b if they DI behind you (at least when they are at lower damage). Link's up-b hits slower behind him and I think DIing behind him on the down throw makes them land a little sooner.

Also dealing with falco lasers?

I find jumping to a platform and throwing a boomerang down towards them is handy. Pulling a bomb here is also a good choice. Once I have a bomb, I like to powershield and then throw the bomb behind the reflected laser.

And whats everyone's opinion on making b-up stale? is it worth doing? or is it better to get the bomb recovery? (reminder that PAL up-b isnt a semi spike)

The bomb jump is not really a good recovery. It is a last effort in hopes that the opponent will somehow fail to stop you from coming back. It's only decent at really high damage, and you are forced to up-b backwards towards the stage after, so you have low/no protection, no mix-up potential, and even if you make it back, you are still at high damage.

If you can get a kill because you can hit them with your up-b, then do it. Never hesitate to do it. It is one of Link's fastest moves and one of his best killing moves.

 

[SAUS]

The above was very helpful.

In general, what throws should be used at what percents to punish spacies? Sheik? Captain Falcon? I fell like dthrow -> regrab works on Fox/Falco, is that actually a thing or just my opponents being bad? Same question with dthrow -> up+ on Fox/Falco (I can do it to Fox, not to Falco it seems...)?

I am pretty sure down-throw tech chase is inescapable, but you have to have very good reaction time. It might not work against falco, though, since his tech is fast and far. One thing I really want to experiment with more is down-throw chain grabbing on platforms. That way, you don't have to move and then grab, you just have to know which way to face and when to throw out the grab. My reaction time is not good enough, I find, but maybe I just need more pracice.

See my above post for grab combos on spacies.
For Falcon, I usually just up-throw and then eyeball it. There aren't many falcons for me to practice against. Just know that against fast fallers, up-throwing them onto a platform at knock-down percent (slightly above 15%) is really good. You can follow up with up-airs.
For shiek, around 30%, you can up-throw into up-air. I think you have to full jump, but there might be a small window where short hop will work. This combo works until around 70 where you can easily start doing down throw into up-tilt, down smash, or up-b.

How should one best DI Sheik's dthrow to avoid a regrab ASAP? And at what percentage can Link start escaping it? Is it up-behind-Sheik DI or what? [I know she'll get a follow-up but I'd rather give the follow-up then be re-grabbed for even more percent prior to fair or uair or usmash or whatever.]

Up and behind is nice. It is hard to tell if they need to turn around to grab or not, and you go as high as possible, so I'm pretty sure you escape earliest with that DI. I don't know the exact percent you get out at, and in practice, the Shieks I play just drop the chain grab a lot. I think it is around 70 or 80. At around 100 and a little higher, if you DI away, you get hit by her forward air. This is usually much worse than taking the up-air or taking the fair from higher up, so go for the up-toward DI. At around 120 or so and I think for a very long time or indefinitely, you can DI away on her down throw and she has no follow up.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

The above was very helpful.

In general, what throws should be used at what percents to punish spacies? Sheik? Captain Falcon? I fell like dthrow -> regrab works on Fox/Falco, is that actually a thing or just my opponents being bad? Same question with dthrow -> up+ on Fox/Falco (I can do it to Fox, not to Falco it seems...)?

I always throw up, I don't like the dthrow tech chase as there is a high risk of screwing it up when under some choke pressure. u-throw can be followed up into a combo with utils and uairs. I also prefer to tech chase with dsmash against spacies and CF as I find its huge horizontal coverage being great for covering options and it also happens to send them in a trajectory which is good for more tech chasing and/or comboing.

How should one best DI Sheik's dthrow to avoid a regrab ASAP? And at what percentage can Link start escaping it? Is it up-behind-Sheik DI or what? [I know she'll get a follow-up but I'd rather give the follow-up then be re-grabbed for even more percent prior to fair or uair or usmash or whatever.]

If its NTSC you should try to DI up onto a platform, its your best chance. Other than that you got a very specific DI so you end up behind shiek but it it looks like you are in front where you hold the control stick upwards and slightly behind. In PAL away and down is best(as you would for regular combo DI).

 

[Thor]

So I played in a Melee tournament this weekend. Except for one irrelevant bracket pools match (that I lost) and one game of a bracket match, I was Link the entire time. I did manage to pull a game off the number 2 player on the PR (barely - perfectly DI'd a non-tipper Marth fsmash on FD leaving me at 200%, pull bomb and double jump up+b recover, his bair breaks my bomb so I take that KB instead of the KB of the bair and don't die, then I get grab -> dthrow -> up+b to put him to 90%, then chase after him and land an fsmash2 [pretty raw] for a win when I was at 213%). I ended up taking tied for 13th overall (it was a 24-man bracket but there were 8-player bracket pools where top 3 got out).

My question: In tournament I did dthrow -> dsmash on Marth at 0%/super low percents (I got it at like 10% too) and it worked. Is this actually a thing or not? I know it works on Sheik at 30%, but he's not Sheik (and it did work on multiple different Marths multiple times, but I'm the only Link around, so...). Would I have to CC a fair or something if I commit to this? I am willing to take one of Marth's aerials or whatever, CC it, and try to keep going/reset to neutral (since it's gonna be like 20% vs 13% from a tipper fair or whatever), I'm just wondering if this works regardless of DI (I did manage to pivot dsmash Marth once too).

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

My question: In tournament I did dthrow -> dsmash on Marth at 0%/super low percents (I got it at like 10% too) and it worked. Is this actually a thing or not? I know it works on Sheik at 30%, but he's not Sheik (and it did work on multiple different Marths multiple times, but I'm the only Link around, so...). Would I have to CC a fair or something if I commit to this? I am willing to take one of Marth's aerials or whatever, CC it, and try to keep going/reset to neutral (since it's gonna be like 20% vs 13% from a tipper fair or whatever), I'm just wondering if this works regardless of DI (I did manage to pivot dsmash Marth once too).

I actually have no idea and I usually know my comboes, I guess I always go for the utilts instead. But I always reason that "if it works it works". If you seem to benefit from it, use it.

Links CC game is pretty important vs Marth and I say that any oportunity you get to CC an aerial and retaliate should be used.

 

[Thor]

I actually have no idea and I usually know my comboes, I guess I always go for the utilts instead. But I always reason that "if it works it works". If you seem to benefit from it, use it.

Links CC game is pretty important vs Marth and I say that any oportunity you get to CC an aerial and retaliate should be used.

A couple times when I went for utilt I traded with the Marth - can Marth actually trade at 0% with a utilt followup, or was that poor execution on my part (and it very well might be)? I don't know frame data for this stuff (I know utilt and dsmash are both frame 9, but I don't know when utilt most often hits or the on-hit advantage at various percents, etc.), but... I do agree utilt is also very good and opt for that if I grab them at like 15% (then dthrow -> utilt -> utilt or uair or whatever).

What do you do after the utilt? I feel like even when I land utilt, I'll often trade with fair when I try a second utilt, so I tried dsmash and it worked, which is how I arrived at that combo and thus wanted to ask the question... or should utilt be safe on hit and I'm probably just messing up timing?

 

[SAUS]

A couple times when I went for utilt I traded with the Marth - can Marth actually trade at 0% with a utilt followup, or was that poor execution on my part (and it very well might be)? I don't know frame data for this stuff (I know utilt and dsmash are both frame 9, but I don't know when utilt most often hits or the on-hit advantage at various percents, etc.), but... I do agree utilt is also very good and opt for that if I grab them at like 15% (then dthrow -> utilt -> utilt or uair or whatever).

What do you do after the utilt? I feel like even when I land utilt, I'll often trade with fair when I try a second utilt, so I tried dsmash and it worked, which is how I arrived at that combo and thus wanted to ask the question... or should utilt be safe on hit and I'm probably just messing up timing?

I do d-throw up-tilt jab against marth at 0%. If you find them getting happy with the fair, then crouch cancel regrab after the up-tilt is a very nice punish (down throw, up tilt, they fair, you crouch cancel, regrab). I've had some success with jabbing, but I haven't fully explored it yet. I don't know if it actually works yet or what I'm supposed to do after the jabs.

 

[Thor]

I do d-throw up-tilt jab against marth at 0%. If you find them getting happy with the fair, then crouch cancel regrab after the up-tilt is a very nice punish (down throw, up tilt, they fair, you crouch cancel, regrab). I've had some success with jabbing, but I haven't fully explored it yet. I don't know if it actually works yet or what I'm supposed to do after the jabs.

Jab -> dsmash or jab1 -> jab2 -> dsmash might(?) work - I was using rapid jabs and jab -> dsmash/jab1 -> jab2 -> dsmash as mixups at various times when I jabbed to very nice results (and I also landed a lot of landing nair to dsmash this weekend, which was very satisfying, although that doesn't apply to dthrow combos). You could almost certainly just jab for the third jab and then follow up with shield and see what they do, or rapid jab if they are on the edge.

 

[Thor]

@ SAUS @ L Looticforgothispassword

Ok, I'm tagging people not cuz it's urgent (although speed would be nice since I have a tourney this weekend) but only cuz my last post wasn't a question but an answer and I want to make sure people know this is actually a question.

What do you do to floaties when you get the grab at low percents (especially Peach)? I was derping around with a level 9 Peach (mainly practicing some tech skill and I just put a Peach) and I realized that if I dthrow her at 0%, it seems physically impossible to get a followup if she nairs right away (that is, dthrow would seem minus on hit). This problem seems to persist until at least 30%. Should I uthrow and try to uair her (although that doesn't seem terribly easy compared to when she goes a bit higher)? Or am I just screwing up? If I'm messing up that clearly shows I need to fix my utilt timing, but it seemed literally impossible to utilt her after it until like 30%, even when she would [if she didn't nair] get hit by the front half of utilt.

And what are the guaranteed dair followups from grabs on floaties? Do any exist or are they reads? I can't seem to get dthrow -> dair to work on Jiggs or Peach at any percent... am I doing it wrong or is this something where if they guess and react perfectly, I don't get a dair? Similarly, are there percents where dthrow -> uair is guaranteed [which would seem the case, but I don't know]? If no to both, then I'm wondering if we have a better grab followup, or if it's best to just guess with dthrow/uthrow and attempt the followup.

Also if anyone knows when dthrow -> spin attack stops working on Peach/Jiggs (and other floaties I guess) [or if it doesn't stop working until super high percents so it's usually fine], that would be great. I would test this stuff on my own but I don't have humans to practice consistently with/test stuff and I'm not frame-perfect by any stretch so I never know if it's my execution or the frames that are getting in the way of something.

EDIT: P.S.: SAUS thanks for throw numbers on fast fallers - them + weight knowledge help a lot (Fox Falcon Captain Falcon especially).

 

[SAUS]

@ SAUS @ L Looticforgothispassword

Ok, I'm tagging people not cuz it's urgent (although speed would be nice since I have a tourney this weekend) but only cuz my last post wasn't a question but an answer and I want to make sure people know this is actually a question.

What do you do to floaties when you get the grab at low percents (especially Peach)? I was derping around with a level 9 Peach (mainly practicing some tech skill and I just put a Peach) and I realized that if I dthrow her at 0%, it seems physically impossible to get a followup if she nairs right away (that is, dthrow would seem minus on hit). This problem seems to persist until at least 30%. Should I uthrow and try to uair her (although that doesn't seem terribly easy compared to when she goes a bit higher)? Or am I just screwing up? If I'm messing up that clearly shows I need to fix my utilt timing, but it seemed literally impossible to utilt her after it until like 30%, even when she would [if she didn't nair] get hit by the front half of utilt.

And what are the guaranteed dair followups from grabs on floaties? Do any exist or are they reads? I can't seem to get dthrow -> dair to work on Jiggs or Peach at any percent... am I doing it wrong or is this something where if they guess and react perfectly, I don't get a dair? Similarly, are there percents where dthrow -> uair is guaranteed [which would seem the case, but I don't know]? If no to both, then I'm wondering if we have a better grab followup, or if it's best to just guess with dthrow/uthrow and attempt the followup.

Also if anyone knows when dthrow -> spin attack stops working on Peach/Jiggs (and other floaties I guess) [or if it doesn't stop working until super high percents so it's usually fine], that would be great. I would test this stuff on my own but I don't have humans to practice consistently with/test stuff and I'm not frame-perfect by any stretch so I never know if it's my execution or the frames that are getting in the way of something.

EDIT: P.S.: SAUS thanks for throw numbers on fast fallers - them + weight knowledge help a lot (Fox Falcon Captain Falcon especially).

Against Jiggs, I just do down throw up-tilt or up-air if she goes to high. Seems to work okay, but I rarely get any grabs. I don't think down-throw dair works if she DIs correctly (maybe at low percents but I don't know). I'd recommend not going for too many grabs agaist Jiggs because a hit is a decent chunk of damage but a miss is instant death (unless you are at very low damage, but still not worth).

Against Peach. One thing to remember is that you can turn around and then up-tilt (or up-b or whatever) since it is faster than letting the back end of the attack get them. What I usually do is down-throw -> up-tilt -> crouch cancel (same as against marth, except I've been trying out jabbing here against him as said in my other post - jab doesn't seem to work against Peach). Basically, if she nairs, you crouch cancel regrab and then you can do down-throw -> up-tilt -> up-air or more up-tilts (I think she can sort of escape, but only to try to mix you up. I think you can always do a follow-up after the up-tilt when she is at 10-20 damage since she will be stuck in the air in all cases). She might have a window where she can nair out of the d-throw before the up-tilt when she is at very low damage, but it's probably very small. Remember that level 9 CPUs do frame perfect stuff all the time (lol powershield).

When Peach is at almost exactly 100, you can do down-throw dair. Either that or no one realises they can nair there or the window is too small to hit reliably without practice. It is the same with marth. You have to run and then short hop dair (unless they don't DI the throw).

Starting from somewhere around 50-60, you can do down-throw up-air. This window overlaps with down-throw up-tilt, so it's pretty lenient. you have to do short hops to start and then full jumps when she is at 100+. If you land a grab and peach is at really high damage (140+), this is a guaranteed kill setup.

Samus is up-throw wait lol. I think you can do down-throw up-air at high damage.

Don't try to grab ICs, but with sopo, it is basically the same as marth.

 

[Bravo_10]

The beautiful thing about down throw -> dair on Peach and Jiggs is that, right about where this throw combo stops working, down throw -> up air starts KOing. This tends to be around 130% on Peach, maybe a bit lower?

Also, you sure down throw -> utilt doesn't work on Samus? I just do that into up air for days. Maybe they can do something to get out of it, but if that's the case, nobody knows how.

And I've actually grabbed IC's before as gotten away with it. Landing a grab that's close to max range means that the other climber tends to be too far away to do anything about it. Then I'll either up throw the grabbed climber to get him out of the way or toss him forward if I think his significant other can come and help. But of course, if I grab from too close, it's RIP in pieces Link.