Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[SAUS]

The beautiful thing about down throw -> dair on Peach and Jiggs is that, right about where this throw combo stops working, down throw -> up air starts KOing. This tends to be around 130% on Peach, maybe a bit lower?

Also, you sure down throw -> utilt doesn't work on Samus? I just do that into up air for days. Maybe they can do something to get out of it, but if that's the case, nobody knows how.

And I've actually grabbed IC's before as gotten away with it. Landing a grab that's close to max range means that the other climber tends to be too far away to do anything about it. Then I'll either up throw the grabbed climber to get him out of the way or toss him forward if I think his significant other can come and help. But of course, if I grab from too close, it's RIP in pieces Link.

I think Samus can nair out before the up-tilt connects quite reliably. I really don't play many Samuses, so I can't speak with certainty.

For Peach, down-throw dair seems to only work at about 100, but you can still get a nice strong up-air when she's not in that window and she will have to make it back to the ground again through your projectiles and up-airs.

Against ICs, if you end up grabbing Nana (it's really hard to choose with them sliding around each other all the time), I think you pretty much just lose your stock. Nana can move in and grab you and then chain grab you until Nana gets back and then wobble you. I doubt any ICs player will do this since who the hell plays against Link frequently, but it just seems terribly risky. If you can guarantee the grab hits Popo, it might not be so bad since Nana's AI will take over and she does dumb stuff al the time.

I wanted to add that luigi has roughly the same grab setups as Samus. Just don't be too disheartened to hear "up-throw -> wait", because they are in such a bad position against you after that up-throw. You just have to be patient to get the follow-up.

 

[Thor]

I think Samus can nair out before the up-tilt connects quite reliably. I really don't play many Samuses, so I can't speak with certainty.

For Peach, down-throw dair seems to only work at about 100, but you can still get a nice strong up-air when she's not in that window and she will have to make it back to the ground again through your projectiles and up-airs.

Against ICs, if you end up grabbing Nana (it's really hard to choose with them sliding around each other all the time), I think you pretty much just lose your stock. Nana can move in and grab you and then chain grab you until Nana gets back and then wobble you. I doubt any ICs player will do this since who the hell plays against Link frequently, but it just seems terribly risky. If you can guarantee the grab hits Popo, it might not be so bad since Nana's AI will take over and she does dumb stuff al the time.

I wanted to add that luigi has roughly the same grab setups as Samus. Just don't be too disheartened to hear "up-throw -> wait", because they are in such a bad position against you after that up-throw. You just have to be patient to get the follow-up.

I rarely grab Jiggs, but sometimes one fsmashes my shield at lowish percents, or has a stupidly risky pound on shield (as strong as it is), so I see grabs occasionally.

Luigi has garbage air speed, so uthrow is super good vs Luigi as you stated - I've done it and it's pretty funny, especially when you eat their jump so you know they have to DI back onstage or basically just die to anything Link throws at him if Link can hit him at all.

Samus has a high weight (low fall speed, high weight)) and I think Link's throws do take weight into consideration for the animation, so Link has more lag from his throw than against Fox (incidentally, this is why Marth can chaingrab Fox/Falco but not Captain Falcon - Fox/Falco are light and Captain Falcon is pretty heavy). So I don't know about Samus nairing out at like say 50%, but I'm sure if Peach can do it, she can too.

For grabbing ICs, it's a basic strategy, nothing spectacular, but I almost never try to grab unless I have the boomerang behind them or a bomb thrown straight up - the rang or bomb can then protect from any serious grab punish (bar a quick grab to fsmash, but they could probably just fsmash you if they get it out fast enough). If you grab Nana and they do anything but stand still and wait for grab, you can try to kick Nana into them [maybe works even if they just stand around but pretty close?], or even sometimes pummel to hit both ICs, and if they do nothing, pummel a LOT - you're in a bad spot, but you can maximize damage on Nana since they aren't punishing until you throw and I don't think Level 1 AI mash out of grabs fast (if at all - someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on this). And if the timing of their punish is looks tight, mash jab to force jab1 out as quickly as possible - it's Link's fastest option.

P.S: I know AI are frame-perfect, but if there are setups that work regardless of my opponent being perfect (or very lucky), that would seem to be the best route, which is why I asked.

Also thanks for the advice.

 

[Thor]

Ok, couple questions:

1) At a smashfest, I was fighting a bunch of Falcon players yesterday, and one thing that seemed to be working well for me was jumping up whenever they shorthopped to interecept a move with nair. This of course was hard or just whiffed on nair, and dangerous on knee if I wasn't spacing well, but it seemed to beat out dair very well. I know I can SHFFL uair (as Lootic said earlier), but is nair good too for this, or is there something I'm missing? [Yes I know uair combos into itself or nair, etc., but one guy actually started trying to space stomps around uair at least for a bit - I was trying to of course maneuver my sword into his lower body, but the extra range on nair seemed good... kind of like how Falcos can nairplane at shorthopping Falcons and all the Falcon can do is pray for a good trade or for Falco to misspace badly]

2) I was also snuffing out stomp approaches, some knees, and even a few high nairs with utilt - is this something good too? It certainly comes out no slower than uair or nair [6-frame jumpsquat], but is there some downside to this I just don't know?

3) Does anyone have a use for the second hit of fair? I feel like it's extremely bad...one of his worst "moves" (the first half of fair is good though) alongside arrows (Which are in my opinion highly situational and I rarely use them - though I've found I love charging it vs Sheik from far away on FD since if she shoots her needles the arrow eats them all and keeps going).

 

[SAUS]

Ok, couple questions:

1) At a smashfest, I was fighting a bunch of Falcon players yesterday, and one thing that seemed to be working well for me was jumping up whenever they shorthopped to interecept a move with nair. This of course was hard or just whiffed on nair, and dangerous on knee if I wasn't spacing well, but it seemed to beat out dair very well. I know I can SHFFL uair (as Lootic said earlier), but is nair good too for this, or is there something I'm missing? [Yes I know uair combos into itself or nair, etc., but one guy actually started trying to space stomps around uair at least for a bit - I was trying to of course maneuver my sword into his lower body, but the extra range on nair seemed good... kind of like how Falcos can nairplane at shorthopping Falcons and all the Falcon can do is pray for a good trade or for Falco to misspace badly]

Nair is good against falcon for sure, but you have to watch out for crouch cancel and trading. At around 70+, using lots of nairs can be good because they do tend to give falcon a rough time and, at that damage, can knock him far enough away to put him in bad spots. Against Falcon, it's important to not miss. Just make sure you aren't spamming out nairs because he can make you pay for your mistakes.

2) I was also snuffing out stomp approaches, some knees, and even a few high nairs with utilt - is this something good too? It certainly comes out no slower than uair or nair [6-frame jumpsquat], but is there some downside to this I just don't know?

This sort of has the same issue as nair in that it's easy when he keeps getting hit by it. The problem here is that shielding it means he gets a free guaranteed stomp which can mean you die for just landing this on his shield (assuming he reacts fast enough). The area the up-tilt covers is actually still very good against falcon, you just have to be careful with it (same as nair). I prefer to actually use the up-smash a lot of the time in this matchup because it is safer and leads to more stuff at low damage (cross-up bair into up-smash against his shield is fairly safe and beats all jump OoS options he has).

Overall, I'd say the biggest issue against fast-fallers for Link is his inability to do much to them at low %. If his grab was more reliable, he'd be much better off in these matchups. Up-tilt and nair both have the issue of not being able to knock falcon down or into the air, so, while they are still very useful, they tend to only be good when the opponent is at high damage, and getting them to high damage is the real issue.

3) Does anyone have a use for the second hit of fair? I feel like it's extremely bad...one of his worst "moves" (the first half of fair is good though) alongside arrows (Which are in my opinion highly situational and I rarely use them - though I've found I love charging it vs Sheik from far away on FD since if she shoots her needles the arrow eats them all and keeps going).

I only use it in really weird circumstances. There are two that I can think of that come up fairly frequently:
1) Jump fair as the opponent is coming back onto the stage from high above. If they air dodge, the second hit can easily be aimed to reset the situation.
2) If the opponent is on the platform, it can often protect you from an OoS punish. This comes up when you are a little too slow on a platform tech chase when they tech on spot and shield. If you manage to push them off with the first hit, you can sometimes get the second hit to land as sort of a combo.

 

[Thor]

Nair is good against falcon for sure, but you have to watch out for crouch cancel and trading. At around 70+, using lots of nairs can be good because they do tend to give falcon a rough time and, at that damage, can knock him far enough away to put him in bad spots. Against Falcon, it's important to not miss. Just make sure you aren't spamming out nairs because he can make you pay for your mistakes.


This sort of has the same issue as nair in that it's easy when he keeps getting hit by it. The problem here is that shielding it means he gets a free guaranteed stomp which can mean you die for just landing this on his shield (assuming he reacts fast enough). The area the up-tilt covers is actually still very good against falcon, you just have to be careful with it (same as nair). I prefer to actually use the up-smash a lot of the time in this matchup because it is safer and leads to more stuff at low damage (cross-up bair into up-smash against his shield is fairly safe and beats all jump OoS options he has).

Overall, I'd say the biggest issue against fast-fallers for Link is his inability to do much to them at low %. If his grab was more reliable, he'd be much better off in these matchups. Up-tilt and nair both have the issue of not being able to knock falcon down or into the air, so, while they are still very useful, they tend to only be good when the opponent is at high damage, and getting them to high damage is the real issue.


I only use it in really weird circumstances. There are two that I can think of that come up fairly frequently:
1) Jump fair as the opponent is coming back onto the stage from high above. If they air dodge, the second hit can easily be aimed to reset the situation.
2) If the opponent is on the platform, it can often protect you from an OoS punish. This comes up when you are a little too slow on a platform tech chase when they tech on spot and shield. If you manage to push them off with the first hit, you can sometimes get the second hit to land as sort of a combo.

To be clear, I was generally using nair and utilt as anti-airs (since they can't CC in the air) and primarily trying to quickly snuff out stomps with utilt and nair or (with nair only) stuff a knee or trade with nair's first hit (usually not an issue, and I can fastfall it in expectation of the trade to get out shield or be ready to use some attack). I know there are CC problems with just using nair and utilt in general, so I wasn't generally using these moves to hit them on the ground, only when they came flying in (although it seems to me that them CCing utilt while we're underneath a platform they're on isn't a big deal, though usmash would seem better for this anyway).

I like the idea about cross-up bairs. And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who doesn't frequently use fair's second hit. I'll keep it in mind for answering airdodges... though for tech-chasing I usually try to punish techs with either uair (just stand below them and poke them with it to either KO, set up a juggle, or set up another tech situation) or dair if they're on one edge since either I hit the dair from a tech in place or I can try to ledge cancel it (which I'm getting somewhat better at) and they're not gonna punish me if the dair misses and is ledge-cancelled - but I'll try using fair more and seeing how I think it works for me.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[squirrels4ev]

When I first started playing Melee competitively as Link around a year ago I felt like I was getting bopped too hard to really learn anything, so I switched mains after about a month. I played Marth for a few months and I've been playing Fox since then but I really liked playing Link so I decided to put some more time into him. I played Link in tournament last week for the first time since I dropped him as my main. It was a lot of fun and I'm excited to work on Link again now that I've had time to develop my overall skill at the game.
While playing last week, I identified a couple of things I need to improve on that I think would give me the largest benefits, but I don't have any other Links in my area to talk to about these techniques. My first question is about wiggling - what's the best input method, (or just your personal method, if you don't feel confident saying you know you're doing it optimally) for wiggling out of tumble so you can airdodge to zair recovery? Right now I just sort of rotate the control stick and try not to touch anything else on my controller so I don't catch myself in a move, but I'm not sure if that's the best way to do it. Bair seems so fast that it might be worth wiggling the c-stick backwards while rotating the control stick to wiggle out, but that's just a guess of mine. I kept trying to wiggle out in friendlies and never got it but I got it for the first time in tournament when it mattered most. My other question is about jab-canceling. I'm not sure when it's necessary to do to increase your "frame advantage". For example, does jab canceling make you jump any quicker out of jab1 or jab2? Does it affect the speed at which smash attacks performed with the c-stick come out? Does jab-canceling allow you to perform B-moves quicker out of jab? What about grabs? It seems like Link doesn't actually have to crouch to jab cancel, but I'm not sure. Right now I think of jab canceling as sort of like a jump-cancel where you cancel your jab lag with a crouch input and then cancel your crouch startup with something else. Is this accurate, or does it not affect your jab lag, only making it so your next A-input will not trigger jab2 or jab3, depending on if you crouched after jab1 or jab2? I'm trying to understand these techniques better since I've found in my experience that I learn better by studying the breakdown of what's happening rather than by just seeing and copying what I see.

 

[SAUS]

When I first started playing Melee competitively as Link around a year ago I felt like I was getting bopped too hard to really learn anything, so I switched mains after about a month. I played Marth for a few months and I've been playing Fox since then but I really liked playing Link so I decided to put some more time into him. I played Link in tournament last week for the first time since I dropped him as my main. It was a lot of fun and I'm excited to work on Link again now that I've had time to develop my overall skill at the game.
While playing last week, I identified a couple of things I need to improve on that I think would give me the largest benefits, but I don't have any other Links in my area to talk to about these techniques. My first question is about wiggling - what's the best input method, (or just your personal method, if you don't feel confident saying you know you're doing it optimally) for wiggling out of tumble so you can airdodge to zair recovery? Right now I just sort of rotate the control stick and try not to touch anything else on my controller so I don't catch myself in a move, but I'm not sure if that's the best way to do it. Bair seems so fast that it might be worth wiggling the c-stick backwards while rotating the control stick to wiggle out, but that's just a guess of mine. I kept trying to wiggle out in friendlies and never got it but I got it for the first time in tournament when it mattered most. My other question is about jab-canceling. I'm not sure when it's necessary to do to increase your "frame advantage". For example, does jab canceling make you jump any quicker out of jab1 or jab2? Does it affect the speed at which smash attacks performed with the c-stick come out? Does jab-canceling allow you to perform B-moves quicker out of jab? What about grabs? It seems like Link doesn't actually have to crouch to jab cancel, but I'm not sure. Right now I think of jab canceling as sort of like a jump-cancel where you cancel your jab lag with a crouch input and then cancel your crouch startup with something else. Is this accurate, or does it not affect your jab lag, only making it so your next A-input will not trigger jab2 or jab3, depending on if you crouched after jab1 or jab2? I'm trying to understand these techniques better since I've found in my experience that I learn better by studying the breakdown of what's happening rather than by just seeing and copying what I see.

I don't really know much about jab cancelling, so I can't help you there (though I plan to research about it at some point...).

As for wiggling out of tumble, I just do dash dance input. If you rotate the stick, I think you can accidentally fast fall or jump too easily. An important note about wiggling out of tumble is that it only does anything during tumble. This is the time where your character is still falling/flailing and you can tech, but you are no longer in hit stun, so you could jump or attack if you wanted to. I'm not 100% sure on how it works, but you only need to hit right -> left or left -> right once or twice to get out of tumble.

The most common use for it is if you got hit and no longer have your double jump but you want to use your tether recovery (with the air dodge). I also use it a ton so that I can tether recover while saving my double jump.

 

[Bravo_10]

When I first started playing Melee competitively as Link around a year ago I felt like I was getting bopped too hard to really learn anything, so I switched mains after about a month. I played Marth for a few months and I've been playing Fox since then but I really liked playing Link so I decided to put some more time into him. I played Link in tournament last week for the first time since I dropped him as my main. It was a lot of fun and I'm excited to work on Link again now that I've had time to develop my overall skill at the game.
While playing last week, I identified a couple of things I need to improve on that I think would give me the largest benefits, but I don't have any other Links in my area to talk to about these techniques. My first question is about wiggling - what's the best input method, (or just your personal method, if you don't feel confident saying you know you're doing it optimally) for wiggling out of tumble so you can airdodge to zair recovery? Right now I just sort of rotate the control stick and try not to touch anything else on my controller so I don't catch myself in a move, but I'm not sure if that's the best way to do it. Bair seems so fast that it might be worth wiggling the c-stick backwards while rotating the control stick to wiggle out, but that's just a guess of mine. I kept trying to wiggle out in friendlies and never got it but I got it for the first time in tournament when it mattered most. My other question is about jab-canceling. I'm not sure when it's necessary to do to increase your "frame advantage". For example, does jab canceling make you jump any quicker out of jab1 or jab2? Does it affect the speed at which smash attacks performed with the c-stick come out? Does jab-canceling allow you to perform B-moves quicker out of jab? What about grabs? It seems like Link doesn't actually have to crouch to jab cancel, but I'm not sure. Right now I think of jab canceling as sort of like a jump-cancel where you cancel your jab lag with a crouch input and then cancel your crouch startup with something else. Is this accurate, or does it not affect your jab lag, only making it so your next A-input will not trigger jab2 or jab3, depending on if you crouched after jab1 or jab2? I'm trying to understand these techniques better since I've found in my experience that I learn better by studying the breakdown of what's happening rather than by just seeing and copying what I see.

I've been doing a lot with jab canceling lately, so I think I can report on it.

1) Link does have to crouch to jab cancel. If you do something quickly enough after it, you won't even really see the crouch come out (because jumping cancels a crouch instantly, even during it's startup frames).

2) EVERYTHING is faster with a jab cancel. Well, most everything anyway. I'm not sure about B-moves because jab-jab-upB isn't a thing in Melee like it is in PM, but nairing, grabbing, and down smashing are all going to be quicker. The key thing you have to remember is that any A move after a jab will count as the next hit in the jab combo, including grab which is really just L+A. C-stick moves don't seem to count for this, but they still will wait for the jab animation to end before they come out. Same with jumps, you won't be able to jump at all until the jab's animation is over (unless of course you crouch).

Also be careful with jab-jab-grab. That's not guaranteed on anybody, but you can use it as a mixup if your opponent keeps DI'ing down and shielding your jab follow-ups. Eventually though, they'll just buffer a spot dodge and poop on your grab, but this is when jab-jab-nair comes in handy because it beats a spot dodge.

/edit: You also don't necessarily have to jump cancel things out of the crouch. I practiced jab canceling by just doing jab-jab-crouch-jab-jab-crouch-repeat over and over again. One of the annoying things about jabbing is that doing the double-jab at nothing actually requires different button timing than hitting someone with your double-jab because of the hitstun. Which is okay I guess, but be warned that accidentally doing only one jab gives you a lot fewer guaranteed options after it.

 

[Dextrose]

question, after landing from a bair, whats the best way to do a turn around down smash. should i do it with the c stick or down+a. and what are his best moves to do after landing a bair

 

[Thor]

I've been doing a lot with jab canceling lately, so I think I can report on it.

1) Link does have to crouch to jab cancel. If you do something quickly enough after it, you won't even really see the crouch come out (because jumping cancels a crouch instantly, even during it's startup frames).

2) EVERYTHING is faster with a jab cancel. Well, most everything anyway. I'm not sure about B-moves because jab-jab-upB isn't a thing in Melee like it is in PM, but nairing, grabbing, and down smashing are all going to be quicker. The key thing you have to remember is that any A move after a jab will count as the next hit in the jab combo, including grab which is really just L+A. C-stick moves don't seem to count for this, but they still will wait for the jab animation to end before they come out. Same with jumps, you won't be able to jump at all until the jab's animation is over (unless of course you crouch).

Also be careful with jab-jab-grab. That's not guaranteed on anybody, but you can use it as a mixup if your opponent keeps DI'ing down and shielding your jab follow-ups. Eventually though, they'll just buffer a spot dodge and poop on your grab, but this is when jab-jab-nair comes in handy because it beats a spot dodge.

/edit: You also don't necessarily have to jump cancel things out of the crouch. I practiced jab canceling by just doing jab-jab-crouch-jab-jab-crouch-repeat over and over again. One of the annoying things about jabbing is that doing the double-jab at nothing actually requires different button timing than hitting someone with your double-jab because of the hitstun. Which is okay I guess, but be warned that accidentally doing only one jab gives you a lot fewer guaranteed options after it.

We need to check the frame data for jab cancelling - the ONLY reason Link would have to crouch is if he has IASA frames that start BEFORE the window to do the next jab stops. If that is not the case, a crouch is 100% unnecessary (and in fact slows your jab cancels). As someone who used to play Brawl Falco (I still do, but he's a backup now), Falcos would jab cancel like this because at the expense of like 3 frames, they could buffer the jab cancel faster (Buffer crouch -> buffer jab out of crouch), but there's no buffering so this doesn't work. And for the record, I do not think Link's jab has this property.

Also, I don't duck when I do jab cancelling. HOWEVER, if it helps you get the timing and you're already basically perfect at it, I don't think you really need to change it.

I also will mix up single and double jab a lot - I think mixing it up is a good idea, since if you always jab->jab-> or jab-> jab -> grab they'll probably just try to CC roll (and so on), but if you just do a single jab -> X you can catch them sometimes. You can also do just a single jab against GnW if you've already got some shield damage and he's not lightshielding to get your shieldstabs in before he rolls (the idea works vs anyone, but his shield sucks so he's a good example of this).

By the way, your frame data is unaltered by jab cancelling - however, you do get to jab them first, which can slow the opponent down and make landing nair/dtilt/dsmash/whatever easier (and for what it's worth, I have used jab -> up+B as an anti-air against floaties - not generally useful, and this may just be a terrible idea [I don't do it much], but you may try messing around with it and seeing what it gets you...).

@ Dextrose bair has the interesting property of having IASA frames before Link touches the ground if you shorthop and don't fastfall (it also autocancels) - so you can do SH bair -> DJ any aerial (fair is not very good for this, I think dair is at best very situational... I usually only use this for another bair or a nair), SH bair -> waveland, and of course SH bair -> grounded stuff (primarily grab, jab, and dsmash). As for following up... read their DI? @ SAUS can probably answer this better... and for dsmashing right away, I usually just turn around with the control stick and dsmash with the cstick. Also SAUS was the one who told me most of this stuff, so thanks to him for all that (which is why I tagged him since he assuredly knows more about it than I do).

 

[squirrels4ev]

The most common use for it is if you got hit and no longer have your double jump but you want to use your tether recovery (with the air dodge). I also use it a ton so that I can tether recover while saving my double jump.

I've only been trying to wiggle out after I've lost my double jump but that bit about saving your jump sounds interesting. I'm a little fuzzy about how that would work though - does that just let you double jump after hookshotting if you get knocked away in midair before you're able to refresh your doublejump with a ledgegrab or by landing on stage? I can't figure out how to use the stored jump without getting hit away first since I'm just playing alone (without a CPU) with the 20XX pack.

I was reading into the frames about jab canceling and it seems like it's not relevant to smash attacks but is helpful for (JC) grabbing, tilting, shielding (also shield dropping), and JC up-B. It technically makes B-moves faster also but I can see no practical application except possibly if you catch Fox/Falco's side-b the right way you might be able to cancel the jab with a dash and hog ledge with JC up-B. I'm still not sure if you can jab cancel with walks, dashes, jumps, and turnarounds, but It appears to my eye that you can. It would explain why jab>jab>turnaround utilt works if turnarounds canceled jabs. If anyone knows that for sure I'd be interested in confirming. It seems like the most useful application of jab canceling is shield drop aerials for pressuring people shielding on platforms.

Also I was disappointed when I realized jab canceling smash attacks was frame-fraudulent, but at the same time it's usually nice to not be pressing down just in case you get caught unawares. I'm so motivated to practice jab-cancel shield dropping now. It actually feels like it's easier to do than a regular one.

 

[squirrels4ev]

Does wiggling out of tumble ever help you Z-drop bombs as combo breakers, or can you just Z-drop while in the tumble animation? I know I could nair or jump from tumble, but if you have a bomb in hand, sometimes a Z-drop would be preferred. Or, is being sent into tumble what causes you to get your bomb knocked out of your hands? This question is more focused on how best to use Z-drops as combo breakers than when/how to wiggle. I never seem to get this type of bomb drop out and don't really understand what states in which it can and can't be performed.

 

[SAUS]

Does wiggling out of tumble ever help you Z-drop bombs as combo breakers, or can you just Z-drop while in the tumble animation? I know I could nair or jump from tumble, but if you have a bomb in hand, sometimes a Z-drop would be preferred. Or, is being sent into tumble what causes you to get your bomb knocked out of your hands? This question is more focused on how best to use Z-drops as combo breakers than when/how to wiggle. I never seem to get this type of bomb drop out and don't really understand what states in which it can and can't be performed.

You can do it in tumble, I'm pretty sure. I remember doing it quite recently. It's important to note that you can't do it during hit stun, though.

I'm pretty sure wiggling out will not make Z-drop happen sooner or more easily.

As for dropping the bomb unwillingly, there is some % chance to drop an item you are carrying when you get hit. This can save you if the opponent happens to hit you with a move that will kill you and the bomb explosion prevents you from going anywhere, but there is no way to do this reliably once you've been hit.

I've only been trying to wiggle out after I've lost my double jump but that bit about saving your jump sounds interesting. I'm a little fuzzy about how that would work though - does that just let you double jump after hookshotting if you get knocked away in midair before you're able to refresh your doublejump with a ledgegrab or by landing on stage? I can't figure out how to use the stored jump without getting hit away first since I'm just playing alone (without a CPU) with the 20XX pack.

That's the main use for it. Hookshot back and if they intercept that, you still have your double jump and up-b. I also find there are lots of cases where you can wall tech something (especially against falco) after your tether recovery and then double jump back onto the stage. It also happens when you save your hookshot after air dodging (say you realise Shiek's needles will hit you), so you take the needles, double jump, and then air dodge + hookshot.

 

[Freon most_dope]

How to bomb jump?
How to double Nair?
Three are probably repeat questions but I couldn't find those thechs anywhere.
Thanks?

 

[squirrels4ev]

How to bomb jump?
How to double Nair?
Three are probably repeat questions but I couldn't find those thechs anywhere.
Thanks?

Simply put, the easiest way to bomb jump is to throw a bomb upward while in midair and then up-B into the bomb by drifting forward for about half of your up-B and drifting backwards towards the bomb for the rest of it. This will make your head the bomb hit you in the back of the head if you do it right. This youtube video (poor quality, but actually details the direction you have to travel) will give you a visual of how to aim your up-B, and this thread will go into detail about how to make sure it's going to work. You can't bomb jump with a stale up-B (see the thread for details on move staling).

To double nair, just full jump, nair as soon as you can after getting off the ground, don't fastfall, and then nair again before you hit the ground. As long as you get the first one out early enough and you don't fastfall it will work. You can also full jump nair and then doublejump out of your first nair and immediately nair again which gives you a rising nair, which can be used to cover your retreat if you missed with the first nair.

Also, some of the techniques in this other thread are sort of trivial, but it's worth reading through to learn more about some of the things Link is capable of doing. The bomb-related techniques are really good to know about.

 

[Dextrose]

lol when i first did a double nair, i thought i discovered something new

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

lol when i first did a double nair, i thought i discovered something new

Double nair is lovely, I had a period of my smash carrier where it was the only thing I did. May I suggest that you do the same thing but with nair->uair, its a great combo starter on tall characters like CF.

 

[Dextrose]

Looticforgothispassword
Double nair is lovely, I had a period of my smash carrier where it was the only thing I did. May I suggest that you do the same thing but with nair->uair, its a great combo starter on tall characters like CF.

that works, sweet!!

 

[Dextrose]

Double nair is lovely, I had a period of my smash carrier where it was the only thing I did. May I suggest that you do the same thing but with nair->uair, its a great combo starter on tall characters like CF.

lol nice

 

[Dextrose]

Thor[/USER] Dextrose[/USER] bair has the interesting property of having IASA frames before Link touches the ground if you shorthop and don't fastfall (it also autocancels) - so you can do SH bair -> DJ any aerial (fair is not very good for this, I think dair is at best very situational... I usually only use this for another bair or a nair), SH bair -> waveland, and of course SH bair -> grounded stuff (primarily grab, jab, and dsmash). As for following up... read their DI? @ SAUS can probably answer this better... and for dsmashing right away, I usually just turn around with the control stick and dsmash with the cstick. Also SAUS was the one who told me most of this stuff, so thanks to him for all that (which is why I tagged him since he assuredly knows more about it than I do).

Do i need to pivot jab/down smash( or any move) after a SH bair, and is bair into up smash good, or is that only in Project M, and your saying i can DJ after a SH Bair?

 

[squirrels4ev]

You'll need to turn around dsmash after landing SH autocancel bair usually, since characters usually land behind Link in that situation. Pivot down smashing is more of a techchasing tool than a bair followup. Maybe if you knock someone floaty farther away you might be able to reach with pivot dsmash but they could probably get out of hitstun before then so they'd have to give it to you. I don't know much about bair into upsmash. It is something I only do if I can knock my opponent onto a low platform (Yoshi's side or low FoD side platforms) and land under them, and only against characters that are going to get trapped on that platform by their weight. I'm not a big fan of upsmash in general, but bair into utilt is good and can lead into more utilts, uairs, or bairs depending on character and DI

 

[SAUS]

@ Dextrose bair has the interesting property of having IASA frames before Link touches the ground if you shorthop and don't fastfall (it also autocancels) - so you can do SH bair -> DJ any aerial (fair is not very good for this, I think dair is at best very situational... I usually only use this for another bair or a nair), SH bair -> waveland, and of course SH bair -> grounded stuff (primarily grab, jab, and dsmash). As for following up... read their DI? @ SAUS can probably answer this better... and for dsmashing right away, I usually just turn around with the control stick and dsmash with the cstick. Also SAUS was the one who told me most of this stuff, so thanks to him for all that (which is why I tagged him since he assuredly knows more about it than I do).

I guess I missed this or forgot to reply haha. Just noticed it now. I think everything you mentioned is accurate. As for knowing which move to do, you have to see where they are going from the attack. It takes practice to see that they won't be landing soon enough for a grab or if they will hit the ground in tumble so that they can't be grabbed. They could also DI in and then you can do an up-tilt or down-smash depending on their damage. I usually just do the bair with the fast fall and then L-cancel and turn around for the follow up. If you don't fast fall, your followup should probably be another aerial. I find I don't do the short hop bair IASA on the ground that much, but full hop bair into double jump bair/nair/dair is quite nice. I think even up-air sometimes combos out of it depending on DI, character, and damage.

EDIT:
I want to add that a general rule of thumb is that you shouldn't memorise what combos into what, but just general ideas of what you want to be doing after certain moves connect. Often, there are many different things you can do, but no single option covers all of their escape options. It's important to react to positioning on the stage and where your opponent DIs to. You should have to see where they go and choose based on that. This is true for all characters (except in a few small instances like wobbling, wave shining, stuff where your opponent can't really do anything - but even chain grabbing requires you to turn around if they DI behind you).

 

[Dextrose]

I'm really I need for help, I play my friend in melee who's about on the same level as me( technically and skillfully) but when I play my other friend who knows basically knows nothing advanced and just graps me and does up throw up air with fox, and I always loose, is DI the answer or what?

 

[Freon most_dope]

Yeah, you want to DI completley away from fax and if you get hit with the up air, you can smash DI out of the move before the second (stronger) hit connects. This is extremely tough, but if you manage to SDI try throwing out a nair as you come down.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I'm really I need for help, I play my friend in melee who's about on the same level as me( technically and skillfully) but when I play my other friend who knows basically knows nothing advanced and just graps me and does up throw up air with fox, and I always loose, is DI the answer or what?

Sometimes skill is not just speed of play, some players tend to have this beast like intuition where he always seems to know what you are doing, these players can play with rather low tech skill and still do it quite well. That said, I think your biggest problem might be that you fall for the same trick over and over. How are you spacing vs him? What do you do when/if he dash dances. Are you putting him under enough pressure? Are you giving away too many shield grabs? What does he punish you for most often?

Of course you can DI too, I tend to DI max horizontally, preferably away from the center and then try to smash DI the uair( smack both sticks up and opposite direction fox is moving just as the first hit connects). You can also if you get out of hit stun double jump -> airdodge or double jump -> nair out the situation.

 

[Dextrose]

yeah i get punished when i mis my up bs or grabs, he doesnt dash dance but he also gets under my boomerangs, and i get sheild grabbed also. he just waits and when i approach i get gabbed

 

[Freon most_dope]

If you have the lead (I'm no link guru) don't approach him. Link has 2 viable (bombs/boomerang) and 1 situational (arrow) projectiles. Use this to your advantage and camp the hell out of him. He uses fax (god lol) and well, you're playing link, a low tier and that makes using whatever it takes to keep the lead because your/our character is conducts
Considered "bad".

However if your approach doesn't work try using aforementioned DJ retreating nair.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

yeah i get punished when i mis my up bs or grabs, he doesnt dash dance but he also gets under my boomerangs, and i get sheild grabbed also. he just waits and when i approach i get gabbed

My guess then is that you need to work on your spacing game. FJ nair, SHFFL fair(make sure you tipper space it) and jabs should help you out.

UpB and grab should be used sparsely and if its out of a combo or a tech chase, I rarely do grab OoS vs fox and I only UpB OoS if he dash attacks my shield.

Against fox it is important to create an aggressive aura around Link, if you are too defensive you will end up getting rushed down, running away throwing projectiles only work if the fox hesitates to attack cause you

Link can't straight out just pressure someones shield, what he can do is put the opponent in a defensive position with one or two attacks and when they are starting to defend themselves you are free to pull a bomb or create some space for a rang. Note that trading attacks helps you a lot, Link is heavy and you might actually get a combo out of a trade.

If you have the lead (I'm no link guru) don't approach him. Link has 2 viable (bombs/boomerang) and 1 situational (arrow) projectiles. Use this to your advantage and camp the hell out of him. He uses fax (god lol) and well, you're playing link, a low tier and that makes using whatever it takes to keep the lead because your/our character is conducts
Considered "bad".

However if your approach doesn't work try using aforementioned DJ retreating nair.

I love camping and throwing stuff in the face of all the characters in the game, so in general I agree with you, BUT...

...Link can't outcamp fox, thats not how I would recommend to play the matchup. Its actually so bad that if I play vs a camper fox, I ban DL64.

 

[Dextrose]

I also have problems when it comes to platforms, it kills a lot of my momentum. Like when I get on platforms I slow down a bit and sometimes have problems dropping through them

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I also have problems when it comes to platforms, it kills a lot of my momentum. Like when I get on platforms I slow down a bit and sometimes have problems dropping through them

Link can actually use platforms a lot to his advantage, there is no need to hurry down from them. I often escape up on them and then light shield close to the edge of it. This lets me counter attack out of shield as the opponents attack hits my shield and push me off. If you feel confident about shield drops Link has uair and nair out of it.

Link has another great thing he can do from platforms. He can throw projectiles, Link is quite unique in his ability to throw projectiles downwards and only YLink does this kind of projectile spam better(Peach can throw downwards but her throw is kinda awkward and since she cant pull a turnip in the air she is painfully vulnerable when she pulls one).

Links heavyness also means that you don't need to worry super much about kill moves.

And lastly, nairs godlike hitbox is really helpful when you are in a bad position on or straight above the side platforms, instead of going down from it, you can simply go up to the center platform with a FJ nair(and then from there you start spamming bombs).

 

[Hanbit]

Does anyone here think jump canceled grabs with link are worth it?

I mean, for characters who's grab ranged vastly vary from standing to dash, it seems pretty useful..

But link's grab is already super long distance.

Would jump canceled grabs be worth it?

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Does anyone here think jump canceled grabs with link are worth it?

I mean, for characters who's grab ranged vastly vary from standing to dash, it seems pretty useful..

But link's grab is already super long distance.

Would jump canceled grabs be worth it?

I don't think it's worth it strictly for the grab but rather for the mind games. If you jump, your opponent has no idea what you're going to do next. Instead of attacking or moving away you just come in with a grab. if you're in the air above someone, they will many times be in their shield. Make them rethink that. Link's good grab range only helps in such a situation, as you can make it seem like you're too distant to get it.

 

[Freon most_dope]

Yes while I don't think it increases his grab range it reduces his ending lag if you whiff the grab by at least 6 frames.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Ok, so I decided that I'm sick of hearing people dog Link and say thats he's unworthy of being a main because he is too easily comboed and has terrible matchup against characters like sheik, falcon, fox ect. So I think we need to start compiling some of the best known smashers in each state and begin testing out our Links against these players. I've seen videos of HDL beating SS, Germ beating DSF and Skler beating Sliq. Therefore anything is possible and people dont understand the amount of time and patience it take to main Link

As such, some of the top players (that I know or heard of) in MI are Dope(falco), Shaeden(falco), Scotu(fox), Ankoku(peach), Anther(#1pika), Lain, Juggleguy(falcon), Mikey Lenetia(peach), Duck(falco) and Moose(samus). There are probably quite a few more who I dont know of, but until then, these are my MI targets. Post and setup your state and see if we can't put competitive Links onto the scene more. SSBM where amazing happens

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Ok, so I decided that I'm sick of hearing people dog Link and say thats he's unworthy of being a main because he is too easily comboed and has terrible matchup against characters like sheik, falcon, fox ect. So I think we need to start compiling some of the best known smashers in each state and begin testing out our Links against these players. I've seen videos of HDL beating SS, Germ beating DSF and Skler beating Sliq. Therefore anything is possible and people dont understand the amount of time and patience it take to main Link

As such, some of the top players (that I know or heard of) in MI are Dope(falco), Shaeden(falco), Scotu(fox), Ankoku(peach), Anther(#1pika), Lain, Juggleguy(falcon), Mikey Lenetia(peach), Duck(falco) and Moose(samus). There are probably quite a few more who I dont know of, but until then, these are my MI targets. Post and setup your state and see if we can't put competitive Links onto the scene more. SSBM where amazing happens

Hey i noticed a lot of people dont use arrows. what do you think of using one in mid air to stun a player, then dropping on them with link's nair?

 

[SAUS]

I don't think it's worth it strictly for the grab but rather for the mind games. If you jump, your opponent has no idea what you're going to do next. Instead of attacking or moving away you just come in with a grab. if you're in the air above someone, they will many times be in their shield. Make them rethink that. Link's good grab range only helps in such a situation, as you can make it seem like you're too distant to get it.

Link's grab range is crucial to his ability to tech chase as well. Without his long grab range, his speed would be too slow to do it.

Jump cancelling the grab makes the ending lag of it shorter (I think 10 frames, but can't confirm right now), but it doesn't improve the speed of the actual grab. Most characters jump cancel because their standing grab is faster than their running grab. There's no other purpose to it AFAIK except if you count shine grab (which wouldn't work without jump cancel grab).

Hey i noticed a lot of people dont use arrows. what do you think of using one in mid air to stun a player, then dropping on them with link's nair?

This can work in a few cases where your opponent is off the stage, but it's very situational. On stage, I wouldn't use the arrow too much, especially not for approaching. Overall it is just a slow move that doesn't do that much.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

This can work in a few cases where your opponent is off the stage, but it's very situational. On stage, I wouldn't use the arrow too much, especially not for approaching. Overall it is just a slow move that doesn't do that much.[/quote]
It could also work as a spacing technique on the platforms

 

[squirrels4ev]

I can only think of 3 (maybe 4) situations where arrow is a good or even useable option. I'm sure there are at least a few more out there but this is what comes to mind:

1.) When you first hit Fsmash or Fair a space animal across the stage and can't reach the edge to edgeguard them in time, dash>full jump>immediate charge arrow>release at some point near the top of your jump can sometimes snipe a careless recovery, giving you time to set up for a nair edgeguard due to the high hitstun on a charged arrow. This is the only type of arrow I will use in tournament play until another use proves itself to be optimal in a given situation.

2.) Link's arrow travels through Shiek's Needles and deflects them downward, which is situational at best.

3.) Arrow resets. (When you land an uncharged or very low charge arrow on an opponent who missed a tech, forcing them to perform a regular getup in place. The same concept as a Jab reset or Falco's laser reset.) It should be noted this is a very uncommon situation and you'd usually be better off just taking the free time to pull a bomb if your opponent missed a tech too far away from you to follow up on it safely and in a guaranteed fashion.

4.) Holding a charged arrow at mid-long range away from an opponent that missed a tech and stayed in the fallen state long enough to let you start charging the arrow. I would say this is technically a use for the arrow but is not very good. It would generally be better to take the guaranteed opportunity to pull a safe bomb than to risk missing with the arrow.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay thank you

 

[Hanbit]

I think i've seen Cosmo do this in one of his videos, but a non charged arrow released from the edge of a stage will go at a nearly downward vertical angle, making it a viable option for those recovering from below the stage..