Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[JediLink]

Good stuff, @ SAUS ! Holy damn. Nice.

 

[Darklink401]

It was absolutely beautiful.

SAUS is definitely my Link senpai now.

BF is such a risky Link stage tho, cuz of that ledge xD

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

He's definitely one of our best. He proved how tricky that we have to be with our recovery, but we have enough options to vary it. Also, the grabs that connected gave so much for him like we knew, but he showed how we need to figure out how to get grabs through conditioning or setups? The bomb drops and positioning was phenomenal as well. The Moon got much off of grabs for positioning though when they connected though, so that's good to know for the MU.

Overall, OMG that was sick! That is all I'm thinking right now! I hope that he was able to get more of his matches so that we can learn more from them since he was playing so well!

 

[Darklink401]

He's definitely one of our best. He proved how tricky that we have to be with our recovery, but we have enough options to vary it. Also, the grabs that connected gave so much for him like we knew, but he showed how we need to figure out how to get grabs through conditioning or setups? The bomb drops and positioning was phenomenal as well. The Moon got much off of grabs for positioning though when they connected though, so that's good to know for the MU.

Overall, OMG that was sick! That is all I'm thinking right now! I hope that he was able to get more of his matches so that we can learn more from them since he was playing so well!

Pretty sure the top 16 continues today.

So hype for him to face big names like Hungrybox

But I'd be happy if a Link even gets top 5 in a tournament with such talented players in it.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Pretty sure the top 16 continues today.

So hype for him to face big names like Hungrybox

But I'd be happy if a Link even gets top 5 in a tournament with such talented players in it.

It did, but SAUS was eliminated by Saus3 in his next round. I would've liked to see him place higher and/or face KK, Hbox, or Hax, but it would still be good to see the matches to see what went wrong in order to prevent the mistakes or bad situations in the future or at least try to.

 

[Darklink401]

Aww really?

Thats disappointing

Well at least a Link got top 16 xD

And is the best Melee player in ottawa <3

is there a video of his loss?

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I don't know yet. But I would let SAUS tell us if there is a vod of it first since it was his match. Can't wait for the discussion.

 

[JediLink]

If there's one thing that set made me realise it's that I should probably actually learn to wavedash with Link. His timing is so weird and hard to get used to compared to Sheik/Fox.

 

[Dinowulf]

@ SAUS just became one of my favorite players with that 2-1 victory over The Moon.

I find it funny that i'm not the only Yoshi player who seriously kreygasmed when he played against the moon.

@ SAUS seriously you did a fantastic job. Looking forward to see more of your work.

 

[Darklink401]

If there's one thing that set made me realise it's that I should probably actually learn to wavedash with Link. His timing is so weird and hard to get used to compared to Sheik/Fox.

I know how, its not that hard xD

But I guess its cuz I did it first with him

 

[Team Plasma N]

If there's one thing that set made me realise it's that I should probably actually learn to wavedash with Link. His timing is so weird and hard to get used to compared to Sheik/Fox.

Seems I have the opposite problem. I can wavedash comfortably with Link, but characters like the spacies or Sheik I find it more difficult unless I make my inputs faster. Though then again, I don't main Sheik or spacies XD.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Seems I have the opposite problem. I can wavedash comfortably with Link, but characters like the spacies or Sheik I find it more difficult unless I make my inputs faster. Though then again, I don't main Sheik or spacies XD.

That just shows how Link's jump works. You know that Link has more frames of jump squat than those three characters making the timing more based on slightly slower inputs while trying to use the air dodge at the earliest possible time. This is why when you try to switch between the timing between our hero and let's say Sheik, you sometimes end up air dodging too high up for a wavedash. In reverse, sometimes you just end up only jumping because you used the air dodge input too early.

If there's one thing that set made me realise it's that I should probably actually learn to wavedash with Link. His timing is so weird and hard to get used to compared to Sheik/Fox.

^This. SAUS probably convinced the whole Link boards to learn this.

-------

Edit: Going off of what I said earlier, the vod is up, so we can probably analyze it in the video thread later, unless people find it fine to just do it here.

 

[Darklink401]

That just shows how Link's jump works. You know that Link has more frames of jump squat than those three characters making the timing more based on slightly slower inputs while trying to use the air dodge at the earliest possible time. This is why when you try to switch between the timing between our hero and let's say Sheik, you sometimes end up air dodging too high up for a wavedash. In reverse, sometimes you just end up only jumping because you used the air dodge input too early.



^This. SAUS probably convinced the whole Link boards to learn this.

-------

Edit: Going off of what I said earlier, the vod is up, so we can probably analyze it in the video thread later, unless people find it fine to just do it here.

I jump all the time when I try to wavedash, lol

 

[Team Plasma N]

Idk, I always found Link's wavedash useful, I use it quite a lot. Surf-wavedashing and wavelanding are important uses for it imo, just makes Link overall faster. However compared to SAUS's movement, my movement looks janky and reckless. When SAUS plays it just looks so smooth and controlled. I'm gonna need to study more of movement with Link.

 

[SAUS]

Thanks guys! I lost to Sauc3 I did beat him a few weeks ago at a tournament in Montreal. Either way, it was insanely close. I could have clutched it at so many moments, but I didn't. It was a good set, at least. I am a little disappointed in myself about that, but I made top 16 and beat the moon, so it was a good tournament performance all in all. I'll post the videos in the video thread at some point, but I'm a bit tired. Just got back home an hour ago.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Dude, honestly you deserve some rest after that. The discussion can happen anytime afterwards.


Edit:

Idk, I always found Link's wavedash useful, I use it quite a lot. Surf-wavedashing and wavelanding are important uses for it imo, just makes Link overall faster. However compared to SAUS's movement, my movement looks janky and reckless. When SAUS plays it just looks so smooth and controlled. I'm gonna need to study more of movement with Link.

I wasn't saying that Link's wavedash or waveland wasn't useful, I was just emphasizing why it is different for us rather than the Spacies and Sheik. If you knew that already then, "my b."

 

[Team Plasma N]

I was just expressing my thoughts since we were on the topic of wavedashing (since most places I go seem to underestimate Link's wavedash). I know you were explaining why Link's wavedash is different, sorry if it seemed like I implied otherwise.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I was just expressing my thoughts since we were on the topic of wavedashing (since most places I go seem to underestimate Link's wavedash). I know you were explaining why Link's wavedash is different, sorry if it seemed like I implied otherwise.

Yeah, sorry. Now that I look at the post again, what you said makes more sense. The idk threw me off more than it should, lol. But I agree that knowing his movement options and their applications is needed.

 

[Darklink401]

I feel practicing movement with Link is SUPER important.

Otherwise, Falcos and Foxes with superior movement will just annihalate you.

 

[Team Plasma N]

I feel practicing movement with Link is SUPER important.

Otherwise, Falcos and Foxes with superior movement will just annihalate you.

Most definitely. Especially if for some reason you're playing on FD against them (I know we shouldn't, but for some reason I actually enjoy fighting them there, more challenging XD). Even Falcons give a hard time due to his speed and most of his aerial hitboxes seem to outprioritize ours (correct me if I'm wrong). As with Sheik her chaingrab is just insta-death so learning to move properly and avoid getting grabbed is key.

 

[Darklink401]

Most definitely. Especially if for some reason you're playing on FD against them (I know we shouldn't, but for some reason I actually enjoy fighting them there, more challenging XD). Even Falcons give a hard time due to his speed and most of his aerial hitboxes seem to outprioritize ours (correct me if I'm wrong). As with Sheik her chaingrab is just insta-death so learning to move properly and avoid getting grabbed is key.

I actually love FD and Poke stadium as Link...which is interesting, because our worst matchup ever also loves those.

I feel jumping is very beneficial and important for Link. Jumping backwards while taking out a bomb doesnt just leave us there wide open to a punish for the bomb-pulling lag, and while a lot of characters are faster in the ground, in the air, the difference isnt that big.

 

[Heero Yuy]

How does one catch the bomb after a Z-drop? I try fastfalling to get it but I feel like I'm still doing something wrong.

Also does it have any real use?

 

[JediLink]

How does one catch the bomb after a Z-drop? I try fastfalling to get it but I feel like I'm still doing something wrong.

Also does it have any real use?

You have to press A to grab it once you land, if that's not what you're doing.

And no.

 

[SAUS]

How does one catch the bomb after a Z-drop? I try fastfalling to get it but I feel like I'm still doing something wrong.

Also does it have any real use?

You can't grab a bomb that you've dropped until you've landed again.

Catching it again immediately on the ground is not very useful.

 

[Darklink401]

Speaking of bombs

Would it be possible to drop a bomb on someone's shield, then pressure their shield with fast SH nairs, so they're pressured by nairs and a bouncing bomb, limiting their options to rolling? (working sort of a multishine)

Or is the window the can act too big?

 

[SAUS]

Speaking of bombs

Would it be possible to drop a bomb on someone's shield, then pressure their shield with fast SH nairs, so they're pressured by nairs and a bouncing bomb, limiting their options to rolling? (working sort of a multishine)

Or is the window the can act too big?

This probably isn't safe, but you can definitely pressure people with the bomb bouncing on their shield. Try catching the bomb and throwing it at them again. You can do it like 3 times before the bomb explodes on its own. They can try to intercept you, but basically, you open up a big opportunity to mix it up and punish them very hard. If they just keep shielding or wavedash away or something, you can just grab them or go for a shield poke with d-smash.

 

[Team Plasma N]

Speaking of safe options on shield, I find myself getting shield grabbed often or my opponent seems to shield my stuff easily then punish. This is especially a problem against Sheik players since it means free grab for them. What are safe options on shield and what should I do immediately after that option lands to prevent getting punished? For example I thought Fair was safe on shield, but seems like I get punished when it's shielded. I can probably provide some videos if needed (a lot of people said my Link has apparently changed), I'll just need a fairly decent opponent.

 

[Darklink401]

This probably isn't safe, but you can definitely pressure people with the bomb bouncing on their shield. Try catching the bomb and throwing it at them again. You can do it like 3 times before the bomb explodes on its own. They can try to intercept you, but basically, you open up a big opportunity to mix it up and punish them very hard. If they just keep shielding or wavedash away or something, you can just grab them or go for a shield poke with d-smash.

it seems like it would be nice shield pressure...I need to test that XP

3 times, huh? That's useful info~ Thanks x3

@ Team Plasma N A safe option on shield would most likely be jab jab grab.

If your opponent is shielding a lot, just projectile pressure him. ;D

 

[SAUS]

Speaking of safe options on shield, I find myself getting shield grabbed often or my opponent seems to shield my stuff easily then punish. This is especially a problem against Sheik players since it means free grab for them. What are safe options on shield and what should I do immediately after that option lands to prevent getting punished? For example I thought Fair was safe on shield, but seems like I get punished when it's shielded. I can probably provide some videos if needed (a lot of people said my Link has apparently changed), I'll just need a fairly decent opponent.

Spaced fair should be safe, but you'll probably be dashing away after all the time. You should do retreating fairs so they have to respect your space a bit. You don't really want to hit their shield too much and instead fish for shield pokes with down smash and reverse up-tilt (sometimes nair works, too). You really need to force them to respect your ground options so that they want to jump. Then you can punish from there. Sometimes you need to just go for that raw grab.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I use FJ nair to beat a shiek in shield. You can land behind her or double jump after it hits.

 

[misterOWAIN33]

I've got to think SAUS vs. Sauc3 is a 50/50 match-up.
Hey @ SAUS nice job at GOML.
In related news, does anyone else think will get bumped up to A tier?

 

[Darklink401]

I've got to think SAUS vs. Sauc3 is a 50/50 match-up.
Hey @ SAUS nice job at GOML.
In related news, does anyone else think will get bumped up to A tier?

I am of the mindset that Link is top 10 material.

But of course, no one would believe me

 

[misterOWAIN33]

I am of the mindset that Link is top 10 material.

But of course, no one would believe me

I would most definitely believe you.
But I don't really count because I don't have Melee.

 

[Thor]

I am of the mindset that Link is top 10 material.

But of course, no one would believe me

Fox Falco Sheik Marth Puff Peach Falcon ICs Pikachu Doc are all better than Link [and I think Samus Ganondorf and Yoshi are all better as well], so I wouldn't say top 10. In my personal rankings he's at 16, although I'm one of the very few who thinks Link is better than Young Link [which probably isn't all that true, but I like to think it anyway].

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys, any advice on sheik matchup? I can't get out of the tech chase even if I try to wave dash out after rolling. I am in desperate need of help, because I can't get out of the punish until high percents.

 

[SAUS]

Hey guys, any advice on sheik matchup? I can't get out of the tech chase even if I try to wave dash out after rolling. I am in desperate need of help, because I can't get out of the punish until high percents.

Wavedash is very slow. If they are catching you too quickly for wavedash, but too slow for you to not be able to do anything, buffer a roll or spot dodge. You can do so by holding shield and c-stick left or right for roll or down for spot dodge. They are invincible before your wavedash even begins to move. With the buffered input, it is also frame perfect whereas a wavedash will have to be timed.

Bear in mind that spot dodge is not very safe if Shiek is at low damage. You can't really do anything after that she can't crouch cancel and punish anyway.

Also remember that Shiek is just gonna bring the pain if she gets you. By the time you are teching around and getting wombo combod, it is too late to be trying to beat your opponent. You have to focus on how you want to fight Shiek from neutral. Her punishes on Link are brutal.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Wavedash is very slow. If they are catching you too quickly for wavedash, but too slow for you to not be able to do anything, buffer a roll or spot dodge. You can do so by holding shield and c-stick left or right for roll or down for spot dodge. They are invincible before your wavedash even begins to move. With the buffered input, it is also frame perfect whereas a wavedash will have to be timed.

Bear in mind that spot dodge is not very safe if Shiek is at low damage. You can't really do anything after that she can't crouch cancel and punish anyway.

Also remember that Shiek is just gonna bring the pain if she gets you. By the time you are teching around and getting wombo combod, it is too late to be trying to beat your opponent. You have to focus on how you want to fight Shiek from neutral. Her punishes on Link are brutal.

Haha so in other words, don't get grabbed from the beginning?

 

[Thor]

OK, PSA: I've been getting some information wrong - you CAN'T waveland out of a SH bair in Melee, BUT you CAN double jump. I realized my mistake messing around with some stuff earlier, and to anyone who has been misinformed, I am deeply sorry [and frankly feel very stupid].

(I made this mistake because you can do so in PM, which I've been playing quite a lot recently, but in PM that's because IASA frames can be airdodged out of, and in Melee that isn't the case).

Haha so in other words, don't get grabbed from the beginning?

Basically yes. Note that you can CC all her aerials until somewhat high percents, so it may be best to try to outspace or contest and CC, but not shield, vs an aerial Sheik [and you have to block sometimes, but Sheik fair is only -1 on shield and Link's fastest OoS is 9 frames, so she can technically do fair -> grab as a block string that Link cannot punish offensively if done perfectly - he can dodge it, or attempt some sort of counterattack if Sheik was not careful with how fair was spaced, but if she does it correctly and we attempt any non-defensive option, we get grabbed].

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

OK, PSA: I've been getting some information wrong - you CAN'T waveland out of a SH bair in Melee, BUT you CAN double jump. I realized my mistake messing around with some stuff earlier, and to anyone who has been misinformed, I am deeply sorry [and frankly feel very stupid].

(I made this mistake because you can do so in PM, which I've been playing quite a lot recently, but in PM that's because IASA frames can be airdodged out of, and in Melee that isn't the case).



Basically yes. Note that you can CC all her aerials until somewhat high percents, so it may be best to try to outspace or contest and CC, but not shield, vs an aerial Sheik [and you have to block sometimes, but Sheik fair is only -1 on shield and Link's fastest OoS is 9 frames, so she can technically do fair -> grab as a block string that Link cannot punish offensively if done perfectly - he can dodge it, or attempt some sort of counterattack if Sheik was not careful with how fair was spaced, but if she does it correctly and we attempt any non-defensive option, we get grabbed].

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik is going to be abusing her shield to try to get you to do something laggy. You can throw a boomerang into her shield and it will bounce back to you immediately, ready to be thrown again. If she is being the aggressor, she shouldn't be able to counter a SH retreating boomerang throw. So that is going to be your staple to keeping her out. Jab is also a godlike tool that will stuff her from very far out. If she short hops to try to space on your shield, a turn around up-tilt will deny her cleanly.

As long as you don't let Sheik in with her grabs, you'll be in good shape. Try to throw out safe moves. For some reason, double hit f-smash feels pretty safe on shield (you can spotdodge or roll if she tries to punish it). Maybe I'm wrong though.