Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[Thor]

If a Puff fsmashes my shield (and that happens a lot to me for some reason...), sometimes I punish with grabs, but other times with up+B. If they CC an up+B at like 100% and pushes them offstage, I'll often start charging an arrow, since Puff can't actually go that high [or if she does, release it and nair her back out so she has to rely on pound, which is punishable], and so if I can snipe well, it's a free 18%.

Most dash grabs are laggier [at the end] than JC grabs. JCing doesn't actually speed it up, because most grabs are frame 7 and frame 8 dashing, so you have to go through a frame of jumpsquat to JC it, which means a JC grab is actually the same speed or slower - but less endlag makes it better (and some JC grabs have better range, for instance Marth, though his grab range behind him is better if it is not JC'd). Some characters choose not to JC grab for very good reasons [Samus, Yoshi have less endlag, it makes Peach's CG vs spacies possible, and Bowser's dash grab has bigger range so it is not often JC'd - there may be other examples]. In general, you should JC Link's grab.

For uthrow uair, any DI is better than no DI on the uthrow, but you want to generally DI behind Fox, since he has to turnaround dash and jump into the uair instead of just jumping or dash straight ahead (if I remember correctly, dashing behind is one frame slower). If you can live the uair without DI or can't live it with DI, it's best to try SDI the second hit of the uair to avoid the damage/kill. If you can live the uair with DI, but not without it, you have to decide if avoiding ~9% is worth risking the whole stock - I don't think it is personally (and being up high then can give you a shot to pull a bomb on the way down). At low percents if the Fox isn't quick you can nair out of it as Link's combo breaker option, but if they see this option they can just usmash you as you land, so be wary of doing this [you've been warned].

 

[squirrels4ev]

I was playing with a really good but sort of inactive old school player in Sacramento today who was probably better than the best player in my city. I asked to play against his Fox the most so I could get practice trying to get out of drills and shines whenever possible. He taught me some things about how to DI certain throws as well but he wasn't sure how to DI Fox's shine to try to get out of it. He suggested trying to mix up crouch cancelling and double stick SDI away from Fox and that sort of worked sometimes but I feel like it was more him messing up than anything. What I saw in the Link guide about it was "Dealing with waveshines, smash-DI them and hope he don’t notice… ;_;". Do we really just have to SDI and crouch to mix up the distance we slide and hope Fox misses the wavedash length he needs to waveshine? Also, should we be trying to SDI perpendicular to Fox's drill to escape it or is it better to just SDI straight to the right or left depending on which side of you Fox is on? Does the answer to the previous question depend on if Link is in the air or on the ground?

As a side note, No Halo Up-B continues to impress people. Edge-guarding with it seems to generate more hype than multishine edgeguards. It's quite possibly the hypest technique in the game besides...

Spoiler

Stomp to knee or Luigi's shoryuken

 

[SAUS]

I was playing with a really good but sort of inactive old school player in Sacramento today who was probably better than the best player in my city. I asked to play against his Fox the most so I could get practice trying to get out of drills and shines whenever possible. He taught me some things about how to DI certain throws as well but he wasn't sure how to DI Fox's shine to try to get out of it. He suggested trying to mix up crouch cancelling and double stick SDI away from Fox and that sort of worked sometimes but I feel like it was more him messing up than anything. What I saw in the Link guide about it was "Dealing with waveshines, smash-DI them and hope he don’t notice… ;_;". Do we really just have to SDI and crouch to mix up the distance we slide and hope Fox misses the wavedash length he needs to waveshine? Also, should we be trying to SDI perpendicular to Fox's drill to escape it or is it better to just SDI straight to the right or left depending on which side of you Fox is on? Does the answer to the previous question depend on if Link is in the air or on the ground?

As a side note, No Halo Up-B continues to impress people. Edge-guarding with it seems to generate more hype than multishine edgeguards. It's quite possibly the hypest technique in the game besides...

Spoiler

Stomp to knee or Luigi's shoryuken

Ya, there really isn't that much you can do about waveshines. Your best bet is to try to not be in a spot where he can land them when he hits you and to not let him hit you (like on a platform or in the air or something - though being in the air too much can be bad). Another way to look at it is that your punishes have to be just as good or better, so make sure you have them down.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

You can smash DI behind a waveshine if you double stick smash DI. Pretty hard but possible. Smack both sticks _towards_ fox and you might get out with some luck.

 

[Team Plasma N]

So today I faced my first Ice Climbers player, and the only thing going through my mind is "What if he wobbles me?" And sure enough, he did. He was very grab oriented and it seemed like my only thing to scare off his grabbing was holding a bomb for long periods of time. He took game one and I took game two (he decided to goof around with me and use Pichu) and game three (he switched back to IC). It's not often that I fight IC, but any tips on their matchup? I'm not too sure about how to play against them. Samus is another unfamiliar matchup for me, but she seemed easier to deal with than IC to me.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Some tips:
- Ban FD.
- Stay above ICs. Yes their uair is somewhat good, but it wont ever kill you, this means an IC needs to do risky guesses to get close to you. You are a lot quicker vertically than ICs, but also a lot more slow horizontally. This means being on platforms most of the match or maybe the whole match.
- If you are close to an edge its harder for an IC to set up a wobble since they need to wobble directly out of nothing since you otherwise just can DI offstage. I also find that Nana tends to be more stupid close to the edge.
- Throw bombs and throw a lot of them. Don't ever hurry, the match might take 8 minutes and you might need to win on time.
- Don't get grabbed, understand that IC has a short grab range and also how short it is and try to understand how far they slide when shielding(only luigi has worse traction), spaced fairs are safe on their shield.
- Do the ledge jump(i.e. dont ledgehop, just do that thing where you simply press Y when on the ledge). They can't punish it sufficiently, they can however punish everything else with a wobble, if you start doing ledge jumps you will soon be free to do other stuff from the ledge too and make the ledge a good place for you.
- Pull out their controller if you get grabbed. This is the best way to counter wobbling.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I lost against Jigglypuff and Fox at Fight or Flight, an Oregon tournament, a couple of days ago. I did well enough spacing patiently against Jigglypuff but still ended up getting rested twice in 2 games, I think off of utilt. I played better than I expected to since I didn't have any experience playing against Jiggs with Link (although I did team with a Jiggs in doubles). I tried a different striking strategy against Fox and ended up taking him to Dream Land. I played much better than at my last small tournament that I posted the stream link of, taking both games to last stock. I lost on DL and decided to counterpick right back to DL. In the last game Fox came off the spawn platform with me at high percent.

I was keeping him out with bombs and platform movement and got him up to about 10-14%. He messed up an approach and landed too far in front of my shield to shine but close enough for me to catch him with Bomb OoS>Fsmash 1>Fsmash 2, or so I had thought. What ended up happening was Bomb OoS>Fsmash 1> Fox hit me with something. I was really shocked that it didn't combo, so much so that I can't even remember what Fox caught me with at that point. It ended in upsmash so it may have been a raw upsmash, it may have been jab upsmash, maybe he shined and clanked with fsmash 2 and wavedash upsmashed me, but I ended up dying to that upsmash. I felt pretty robbed and have been thinking about it ever since but I don't know why my combo didn't work. My 4 ideas as to how Fox got back into a neutral stand after getting hit by fsmash 1 are as follows:

1.) Fox tried to CC fsmash the bomb and ended up CC SDIing Fsmash 1 towards me, then I pressed A too soon to get Fsmash 2 out or too late because of the pressure situation.

2.) Fox SDIed Fsmash 1 up and in and wiggled out of tumble to land in a neutral stand. This seems really unlikely since I think i he didn't CC Fsmash 1 he would have been knocked away at his percent

3.) This combo doesn't work at the percent he had or perhaps doesn't work if the first Fsmash is spaced while Fox doesn't CC.

4.) I'm pretty sure I didn't even get Fsmash 2 out but it might be that he SDIed the bomb sort of up and away and then fell into the tip of Fsmash 1. If Fsmash 1 pushed him away and he landed on his feet I might have whiffed Fsmash 2 and had the endlag punished by dash>JC upsmash. If this had happened I don't think I would have been confused as to how it occurred though.

Can anyone shed some light on spaced Bomb OoS>Double Fsmash against Fox at 10-14%? This really irks me.

 

[SAUS]

I lost against Jigglypuff and Fox at Fight or Flight, an Oregon tournament, a couple of days ago. I did well enough spacing patiently against Jigglypuff but still ended up getting rested twice in 2 games, I think off of utilt. I played better than I expected to since I didn't have any experience playing against Jiggs with Link (although I did team with a Jiggs in doubles). I tried a different striking strategy against Fox and ended up taking him to Dream Land. I played much better than at my last small tournament that I posted the stream link of, taking both games to last stock. I lost on DL and decided to counterpick right back to DL. In the last game Fox came off the spawn platform with me at high percent.

I was keeping him out with bombs and platform movement and got him up to about 10-14%. He messed up an approach and landed too far in front of my shield to shine but close enough for me to catch him with Bomb OoS>Fsmash 1>Fsmash 2, or so I had thought. What ended up happening was Bomb OoS>Fsmash 1> Fox hit me with something. I was really shocked that it didn't combo, so much so that I can't even remember what Fox caught me with at that point. It ended in upsmash so it may have been a raw upsmash, it may have been jab upsmash, maybe he shined and clanked with fsmash 2 and wavedash upsmashed me, but I ended up dying to that upsmash. I felt pretty robbed and have been thinking about it ever since but I don't know why my combo didn't work. My 4 ideas as to how Fox got back into a neutral stand after getting hit by fsmash 1 are as follows:

1.) Fox tried to CC fsmash the bomb and ended up CC SDIing Fsmash 1 towards me, then I pressed A too soon to get Fsmash 2 out or too late because of the pressure situation.

2.) Fox SDIed Fsmash 1 up and in and wiggled out of tumble to land in a neutral stand. This seems really unlikely since I think i he didn't CC Fsmash 1 he would have been knocked away at his percent

3.) This combo doesn't work at the percent he had or perhaps doesn't work if the first Fsmash is spaced while Fox doesn't CC.

4.) I'm pretty sure I didn't even get Fsmash 2 out but it might be that he SDIed the bomb sort of up and away and then fell into the tip of Fsmash 1. If Fsmash 1 pushed him away and he landed on his feet I might have whiffed Fsmash 2 and had the endlag punished by dash>JC upsmash. If this had happened I don't think I would have been confused as to how it occurred though.

Can anyone shed some light on spaced Bomb OoS>Double Fsmash against Fox at 10-14%? This really irks me.

Puff takes some experience for any character. If you can find someone to practice with, you'll probably get the hang of it. It's a weird matchup, but it sounds like you played it mostly correctly. The key is definitely patience.

For that fox thing, you have to catch him out of the air with bomb to get the f-smash to truly combo. He can crouch cancel shine -> wavedash -> up-smash you after the first f-smash hits. If it was really a raw up-smash after crouch cancelling your first hit of f-smash, then your second hit of f-smash should be able to come out 1 frame before his up-smash, but requires precise timing of the input (frame-perfect to hit, 1 frame late to tie, any later and you get up-smashed). As an alternative in that situation, you can do bomb -> grab. It's a bit risky depending on distance and stuff, but it tends to work. Usually having them in the air makes it a lot more reliable since I think it is inescapable if done correctly (unless they SDI the hell out of the bomb).

Overall, I think you just needed to throw the bomb earlier. Based on where he jumped from, with practice, you will know exactly where he will be able to reach, so you will know to throw the bomb immediately. I don't know the specifics of the situation, though, so it could have been a tough call.

Hopefully this helps you.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I didn't know you had to catch Fox out of the air to prevent CC Shine>WD>Usmash by him. It always seemed like if Fox CCed the first Fsmash that it just made it combo into the second one at even higher percents. I guess I just haven't played against any Foxes who thought to try counterattacking with CC because the first time they CC they just get double hit. Just knowing that CC can beat that combo if I'm not careful about when I go for it is helpful.

By the way, does Hitlag or Shield Hitlag affect the timing of the second Fsmash? Do I have to delay to get a frame perfect second swing if I hit something, the same way I have to delay my L-cancels when I hit something before landing? I get the feeling I do because it seems like jab cancel grabs need to account for hitlag. I was getting a lot of triple jabs when I meant to jab jab grab up until a few days ago.

 

[SAUS]

I didn't know you had to catch Fox out of the air to prevent CC Shine>WD>Usmash by him. It always seemed like if Fox CCed the first Fsmash that it just made it combo into the second one at even higher percents. I guess I just haven't played against any Foxes who thought to try counterattacking with CC because the first time they CC they just get double hit. Just knowing that CC can beat that combo if I'm not careful about when I go for it is helpful.

By the way, does Hitlag or Shield Hitlag affect the timing of the second Fsmash? Do I have to delay to get a frame perfect second swing if I hit something, the same way I have to delay my L-cancels when I hit something before landing? I get the feeling I do because it seems like jab cancel grabs need to account for hitlag. I was getting a lot of triple jabs when I meant to jab jab grab up until a few days ago.

Ya, you do need to account for the hit lag. The numbers above were also assuming that your opponent does the up-smash frame perfectly, so it's potentially more lenient.

CC is really, really strong. I think it takes fighting good players to realise how powerful it is. It's probably the most significant effect of damage on your opponent - killing their ability to crouch cancel your stuff. It opens them up to a lot more things.​

 

[Thor]

Mostly unimportant
------
So I took I think 13th or 17th in a recent tournament, losing to a good Falco [who took I think 4th] and a good Fox [who only made it a round past me, but was taken out by a guy who tore up losers and ended up in 3rd]. I did somewhat poorly against the Falco. I've not been playing as much Link as I should... [I kinda want to play Marth and Falco more... I finally made the local PR with Link, but Falco vs Falcon is just so much easier, and Marth vs spacies is so much easier too...]. I got the Fox close to death, then when I CP'd DL he picked Marth for some bizarre reason but beat me with him anyway [he got me with a dair edgeguard at low percent, or I might've had him... it was basically even until that happened]. I think I'm going to play them all when I practice, at least for now, since I think Falco will push my tech skill, Marth will push my reads ability, movement somewhat, and edgeguarding [more than just spin to win and nearly mindless nairs], and Link is still my best bet except in a few specific situations [vs Falcon on FD, for instance, I think my Falco is about equally good].
----

@ SAUS @ L Looticforgothispassword I'd love either (or both) of you to give input on this.

While playing in some friendlies, I realized I did SH fair and got both hits to land once or twice when I didn't fast-fall. I read the frame data thread and realized a short hop is airborne 32 frames, and fair's second hit is active on frame 30-33. Does anyone in here use SH fair without the fastfall? From what I've seen, it's easy-mode to space low to the ground on shield [not perfect, but if it's say -2 perfectly spaced (we don't have the shieldstun and shieldlag in the thread for the second hit), it's at worst -5 from a shorthop], it's a nice mixup that can hit OoS options, and if I hit the first hit of fair at low percents and don't fastfall, sometimes the second hit connects to make fair do I think over 20%. Is this something other Link players use and I just never noticed, or is there some reason to almost always just do SHFFL fair?

 

[squirrels4ev]

I feel like SHFFL fair leads to grabs or to jab grab on a lot of relevant characters at lower percents and at high percents the first hit will knock them out of the second hit of fair. That's probably why you don't see it hit twice often. A throw will do like 3 or 4% and put them in a disadvantageous position so if you know fair combos into grab you'll get probably a better situation than double hit fair. Also if you miss an aerial that you don't fastfall you're going to be easier to punish. That short hop fair might be good on puff because she's sort of hard to grab and not worth the risk of trying to grab at low percents where you might get both hits. Also every percent matters against puff. I'm just spitballing ideas though.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

@ SAUS @ L Looticforgothispassword I'd love either (or both) of you to give input on this.

While playing in some friendlies, I realized I did SH fair and got both hits to land once or twice when I didn't fast-fall. I read the frame data thread and realized a short hop is airborne 32 frames, and fair's second hit is active on frame 30-33. Does anyone in here use SH fair without the fastfall? From what I've seen, it's easy-mode to space low to the ground on shield [not perfect, but if it's say -2 perfectly spaced (we don't have the shieldstun and shieldlag in the thread for the second hit), it's at worst -5 from a shorthop], it's a nice mixup that can hit OoS options, and if I hit the first hit of fair at low percents and don't fastfall, sometimes the second hit connects to make fair do I think over 20%. Is this something other Link players use and I just never noticed, or is there some reason to almost always just do SHFFL fair?

You want my input? If it works it works! Sounds safe enough to be useful in neutral game, I don't use the second swing that way but I have had some success when pressuring someone on a platform with a FJ fair using both swings on their shield. Ill try it out.

 

[Thor]

Also, for fighting NTSC Sheik, I seem to remember someone saying there is some sort of DI for the dthrow such that we can escape the CG around 60% or so... and also that we can't be CG'd from 0%. @ SAUS is this the case? And if so, what do I need to do to escape the CG at both percents [double jump, nair, airdodge... something else]?

 

[SAUS]

Also, for fighting NTSC Sheik, I seem to remember someone saying there is some sort of DI for the dthrow such that we can escape the CG around 60% or so... and also that we can't be CG'd from 0%. @ SAUS is this the case? And if so, what do I need to do to escape the CG at both percents [double jump, nair, airdodge... something else]?

I am not certain about the 60% thing, but DIing as though you were wavedashing directly up and behind shiek makes you go straight up. I'm pretty sure it's the way to escape the earliest, but will give them a faily easy follow up. It's particularly useful for stages where you can use this to DI to a platform and mix that up with not DIing onto the platform and with your tech directions.

At around 0% (probably extends a little bit up to maybe 5% or something), she can't regrab you if you DI away from her (same direction she's facing). You might have to do slightly down as though you were wavedashing the same way she is facing. It lets you tech before regrab, but they can jab and then try something, so just be aware of that.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I've been thinking a lot about holding down during moves since hearing about it in a commentary of a set (I can't remember the set) and saw this in the Grab Punishes thread:

You can hold down during the jab to get a punish if they still try to attack you.

I was reading up on CCing and ASDI and how that all worked since my eyes were really opened to the importance of SDI and combo DI because I had an idea about the Falcon matchup that I haven't been able to test thoroughly yet. I may be wrong about this, but my idea of how to play against Falcon (in neutral) is to keep him from jumping. I do this 3 ways:

1.) Throw boomerangs either at an upward angle from the ground or short hop back and throw them forward. Falcon is really fast on the ground so I don't use this option often because of how laggy the boomerang throw is. I find that if I try to keep Falcon out with projectiles too much it becomes predictable and Falcon can easily penetrate the wall with high priority aerials and fast movement

2.) Intercept Falcon's jumps and aerials with up-tilt. Falcon wants to nair in neutral. If you let him dashdance long enough eventually he's going to short hop nair you to try for a grab to start a juggle combo. If Falcon tries to grab straight out of dashdance it's relatively easy to keep him out with jabs leading into jab cancel combos at most percents.

3.) Nair Falcon out of the air. Nair has a great hitbox and trades well with Falcon's nair. It also comes out quickly and lasts forever so it's hard for Falcon to catch you in the air while you're nairing. Falcon's CC beats Link's nair handily so nairing a lot encourages Falcon to stay on the ground and either CC it or punish it OoS if Link messes up.

My idea stems from the second way I deal with Falcon: up-tilt intercepts. I understand you have to be crouching to truly crouch cancel so crouch canceling during up-tilt isn't possible, but I was thinking that preparing the c-stick to ASDI during up-tilt could make it a much better option. Sometimes the up-tilt is just timed wrong and Falcon sneaks in with a nair anyways. I know characters with faster grabs, such as Marth and Sheik, can just CC Falcon's nair and grab him (possibly between the first and second hits, I'm not sure). I was thinking ASDIing down and away from Falcon could let me Dsmash or jab or maybe combined with SDI get me out of jab/grab range, forcing Falcon to at least dash/run/walk to catch me. I'm going to be experimenting with this ASDI later today since I'll be festing with 2 Falcon mains and a Mario main.

Do you guys think this kind of thing could be useful? Do you know if it works or not already? I'm pretty excited about this as I've been getting pretty good at the matchup lately and I feel close to having it on lock. Sheik (NTSC) is definitely feeling like way worse of a mtachup than Falcon and Fox to me, but I'm studying that one currently.

 

[SAUS]

I've been thinking a lot about holding down during moves since hearing about it in a commentary of a set (I can't remember the set) and saw this in the Grab Punishes thread:



I was reading up on CCing and ASDI and how that all worked since my eyes were really opened to the importance of SDI and combo DI because I had an idea about the Falcon matchup that I haven't been able to test thoroughly yet. I may be wrong about this, but my idea of how to play against Falcon (in neutral) is to keep him from jumping. I do this 3 ways:

1.) Throw boomerangs either at an upward angle from the ground or short hop back and throw them forward. Falcon is really fast on the ground so I don't use this option often because of how laggy the boomerang throw is. I find that if I try to keep Falcon out with projectiles too much it becomes predictable and Falcon can easily penetrate the wall with high priority aerials and fast movement

2.) Intercept Falcon's jumps and aerials with up-tilt. Falcon wants to nair in neutral. If you let him dashdance long enough eventually he's going to short hop nair you to try for a grab to start a juggle combo. If Falcon tries to grab straight out of dashdance it's relatively easy to keep him out with jabs leading into jab cancel combos at most percents.

3.) Nair Falcon out of the air. Nair has a great hitbox and trades well with Falcon's nair. It also comes out quickly and lasts forever so it's hard for Falcon to catch you in the air while you're nairing. Falcon's CC beats Link's nair handily so nairing a lot encourages Falcon to stay on the ground and either CC it or punish it OoS if Link messes up.

My idea stems from the second way I deal with Falcon: up-tilt intercepts. I understand you have to be crouching to truly crouch cancel so crouch canceling during up-tilt isn't possible, but I was thinking that preparing the c-stick to ASDI during up-tilt could make it a much better option. Sometimes the up-tilt is just timed wrong and Falcon sneaks in with a nair anyways. I know characters with faster grabs, such as Marth and Sheik, can just CC Falcon's nair and grab him (possibly between the first and second hits, I'm not sure). I was thinking ASDIing down and away from Falcon could let me Dsmash or jab or maybe combined with SDI get me out of jab/grab range, forcing Falcon to at least dash/run/walk to catch me. I'm going to be experimenting with this ASDI later today since I'll be festing with 2 Falcon mains and a Mario main.

Do you guys think this kind of thing could be useful? Do you know if it works or not already? I'm pretty excited about this as I've been getting pretty good at the matchup lately and I feel close to having it on lock. Sheik (NTSC) is definitely feeling like way worse of a mtachup than Falcon and Fox to me, but I'm studying that one currently.

The trick is that you actually want him to jump. Throwing the boomerang to intercept his jump is more of a punish of him trying to jump over your boomerang. In the air, movement is constrained heavily. On top of that, you can't crouch cancel in the air. These are HUGE factors. I don't think enough people realise how significant it actually is. On top of that, though, jumping tends to be necessary for that extra dimension of movement. I wouldn't say "jumping is bad", but just know that it is easy to have jumped at the wrong time.

As for bullet-hell (spam projectiles at them), I find it is better to try to be more precise with projectiles - mostly bombs, really. The boomerang is nice to have pestering them constantly, but save your bombs for good moments if you can. Catching an opponent in the air with a bomb is probably Link's most reliable combo starter. I like to imagine Peppy saying "Use bombs wisely!!" from Starfox 64. It's good advice :D What I mean by this, though, is that you can keep the bomb and look for an opening.

ASDI is actually doing most of the crouch cancelling for you. Test it out on your own to get a feel for it. An easy way to do it is taunt and hold down (c-stick or control stick) and then have the other guy hit you while you are taunting. If the move wouldn't force you to tech normally, it will probably be fully cancelled. There are exceptions to this - moves that send you straight sideways and moves that send you downward. Falcon's stomp will beat crouch cancelling quite badly (free grab after).

I find the trick against Falcon is to never not be moving. If you are always moving around, it's hard for him to play a nice hit that leads into solid, easy follow-ups. This prevents him from getting a ton of super deadly combos on you.

 

[Thor]

I came up with something dumb. It's probably a terrible idea but I'll share it anyway.

If Link does a shorthop, z-dropped bomb, he can up+b and get the first spin of spin attack before the bombs hits him and knocks him out of the animation.

My idea? If you really want that kill move and are already at really high percents, SH with a bomb in front of someone's shield, z-drop it, then use spin attack - if they try to OoS you they probably die, if they don't, you aren't going to be punished immediately because you can SDI and DI the bomb wherever, and at high percents not only does the damage matter less, but you're launched farther so they have to go farther to follow up. There's also the "What the -???" factor that might freeze them up some.

Is this really as dumb as I think this is, or does it potentially have some merit, say in teams or something?

 

[SAUS]

I came up with something dumb. It's probably a terrible idea but I'll share it anyway.

If Link does a shorthop, z-dropped bomb, he can up+b and get the first spin of spin attack before the bombs hits him and knocks him out of the animation.

My idea? If you really want that kill move and are already at really high percents, SH with a bomb in front of someone's shield, z-drop it, then use spin attack - if they try to OoS you they probably die, if they don't, you aren't going to be punished immediately because you can SDI and DI the bomb wherever, and at high percents not only does the damage matter less, but you're launched farther so they have to go farther to follow up. There's also the "What the -???" factor that might freeze them up some.

Is this really as dumb as I think this is, or does it potentially have some merit, say in teams or something?

This is something I have been looking at. I am trying to incorporate it with grabs / f-smashes on their shield they block my bomb. It is a nice mix-up to catching the bomb every time and it gives a nice sense of pressure (they can't just wait it out banking on you being too afraid to grab due to the punishes when it misses).

If you're looking for stupid applications, I've also been thinking about doing charge f-smash as the bomb is coming down and then doing double f-smash hits, crouch cancel the bomb, and then up-b for the shield break. I doubt it'll ever work though lol.

As to your idea, though, it has proved to be good when I pull it off. It is just a strange thing to set up and sometimes it is easy to do the move too early and their punish lands before the bomb. I also find the grab is a little wonky because if it does land, it is hard to do anything off of it since your bomb will interrupt you. I think up-throw and crouch cancel is your best bet, hoping that they will not be able to crouch cancel since you've lifted them off the ground, but you will be able to, so an up-tilt or something should connect.

 

[shapular]

I entered a 64-man tournament today using mostly Link (iirc I won one game in my first set with Marth and then the rest of my wins were from Link) and got 13th. That's way better than I was expecting to do since I don't practice Melee much, and it's kind of inspiring me to keep practicing this game and make my Link really good. I posted the video of one of the sets in the video thread if you guys want to check it out and give me some criticism.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys, any new tricks for links recovery? Any tips for more effective bomb jumping?

 

[SAUS]

Hey guys, any new tricks for links recovery? Any tips for more effective bomb jumping?

Wiggle out of tumble, air dodge -> hookshot before using your double jump has been working well for me. You keep your jump when tethering unlike when you up-b.

Bomb jumping is the same. If you want to maximise it, then you have to SDI the bomb lol.

There is this one weird thing where Link snaps to the edge instantly with his tether recovery - similar to how samus does it. I haven't gotten it down completely, yet, but there seems to be a consistent window to make it work. Kadano did a bit of research for me at one point in his marth frame data thread. On battlefield, I think the window is always something like frame 4-9 after your hookshot hits the edge. If you activate the hookshot in this window, you go straight to the edge similar to samus. It seems to be very useful.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Wiggle out of tumble, air dodge -> hookshot before using your double jump has been working well for me. You keep your jump when tethering unlike when you up-b.

Bomb jumping is the same. If you want to maximise it, then you have to SDI the bomb lol.

What about when you are flying out of the map, an you need your double jump to keep from going out?

 

[SAUS]

What about when you are flying out of the map, an you need your double jump to keep from going out?

Then you have to use it. But for the cases where you can save your jump, though, it is quite useful.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay thank you, I also just found out that my bomb jumps don't work if my up B is stale

 

[SAUS]

Okay thank you, I also just found out that my bomb jumps don't work if my up B is stale

That is correct. Overall, the bomb jump is like a last-ditch-effort sort of thing. It rarely actually saves you. Even when you get in the right position where you need to do it to get back, it is likely they just kill you since you are up-bing backwards at the stage (leaving barely any hitboxes to protect you) and it is really easy to see coming. I would never sacrifice a solid up-b hit to have the potential bomb jump recovery.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Bomb jump is actually bad and only works if the opponent chokes or don't see it coming thanks to matchup inexperience. It's as easy to gimp as Ness's upB without the risk for when you screw up.

Still though its a neat trick that helps out a little, knowing it makes you win games a little more, not by a lot, but by a little.

Tethering correctly is far more important.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay thank you

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey Saus, would it be better for me to practice wave dashing and get that down or practice getting a stronger punishing game.

 

[squirrels4ev]

If you practice your neutral game then your punish game will develop naturally as the opportunity to get punishes will arise more often for you in real matches. In my opinion the best way to practice on your own is to practice your execution on things that require specific inputs or timings, and to use the rest of your practice time to study video footage of how to play the neutral and combo against a specific character. Try to learn matchups one at a time.

Probably incomplete list of examples of techskill that can (and probably should) be practiced:
-Bomb-jumping
-Hookshotting battlefield
-Ledgehogging with running jump-canceled up-B (AKA No-Halo up-B, see advanced link techniques thread)
-Full jump instant nair OoS
-SH auto-cancel bair
-Glide tossing (you can't aerial glide toss in melee, I'm referring to the grounded one where you get a smash throw OoS)
-Bomb Planting
-Invincible Ledgestalling with fastfall doublejump regrab
-Ledgehop aerials (Link is actionable after "grabbing" the ledge on Frame 4, everyone else is actionable on frame 8. This mean Link can release the ledge and perform aerials with a different (faster) timing than every other character
-Wavedash OoS
-Shield Drop
-jab cancel grabs

It's also important to practice your movement. Try to spend a few minutes on battlefield just wavedashing, dashdancing, moonwalking, and wavelanding both on and off of platforms. Occasionally pull out bombs and practice planting them while you do this, and maybe try to mix in a shield (or shai) drop here and there if you can.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay thank you

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If you practice your neutral game then your punish game will develop naturally as the opportunity to get punishes will arise more often for you in real matches. In my opinion the best way to practice on your own is to practice your execution on things that require specific inputs or timings, and to use the rest of your practice time to study video footage of how to play the neutral and combo against a specific character. Try to learn matchups one at a time.

Probably incomplete list of examples of techskill that can (and probably should) be practiced:
-Bomb-jumping
-Hookshotting battlefield
-Ledgehogging with running jump-canceled up-B (AKA No-Halo up-B, see advanced link techniques thread)
-Full jump instant nair OoS
-SH auto-cancel bair
-Glide tossing (you can't aerial glide toss in melee, I'm referring to the grounded one where you get a smash throw OoS)
-Bomb Planting
-Invincible Ledgestalling with fastfall doublejump regrab
-Ledgehop aerials (Link is actionable after "grabbing" the ledge on Frame 4, everyone else is actionable on frame 8. This mean Link can release the ledge and perform aerials with a different (faster) timing than every other character
-Wavedash OoS
-Shield Drop
-jab cancel grabs

It's also important to practice your movement. Try to spend a few minutes on battlefield just wavedashing, dashdancing, moonwalking, and wavelanding both on and off of platforms. Occasionally pull out bombs and practice planting them while you do this, and maybe try to mix in a shield (or shai) drop here and there if you can.

Thats a pretty neat list you got there, may I joink it and put it into the guide?

 

[squirrels4ev]

Thats a pretty neat list you got there, may I joink it and put it into the guide?

Sure, feel free to rework it or add/take away things from it as well. I was just posting things as they popped into my head last night because I was pretty well intoxicated.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys, for recovery, what do you guys think of Nair-ing a bomb to gain horizontal distance, while saving your jump to turn around and potentially tether for a safer recovery instead of trying to throw in all cards on an up-B bomb jump?

 

[Darklink401]

Yo. Casual player here XD only play Link, pretty much, tho I do dabble in Roy and marth from time to time. Havent played the game really, in like 8 years, but I wanna pick it back up cuz I discovered there is a local scene xD

Anyway, my question is, how good is the up B? Cuz from my perspective, its super OP, killing characters such as Marth as low as 40% if you do it off of a dash attack or throw. is there something Im missing here?

Cuz between Links amazing up B, godly nair, and bair, and projectile walls, Id think he would be very viable.

 

[Thor]

I think bomb jump recovery is sorta kinda ok if your opponent can't safely reach you to interrupt it and you can pull it off close enough to the stage to wall-tech and then up+b and be prepared to tech a subsequent attack. But that's super duper hard.

Also, we can wiggle out of tumble, but in order to get as close to the stage as possible, I've started messing with simply c-sticking a bair while holding toward the stage - on Dreamland at least, I'm usually high enough that this doesn't compromise my tether options, but it does mean I lose no horizontal distance [whereas the frames spent wiggling might compromise the distance ever so slightly].

Yo. Casual player here XD only play Link, pretty much, tho I do dabble in Roy and marth from time to time. Havent played the game really, in like 8 years, but I wanna pick it back up cuz I discovered there is a local scene xD

Anyway, my question is, how good is the up B? Cuz from my perspective, its super OP, killing characters such as Marth as low as 40% if you do it off of a dash attack or throw. is there something Im missing here?

Cuz between Links amazing up B, godly nair, and bair, and projectile walls, Id think he would be very viable.

Up+b is very high risk, high reward [at high percents], very very high risk, mediocre rewards at lower percents, and frankly begging for punishment at CC percents. At high percents it KOs. At mid percents it can be ok to punish some stuff [rolls] but doesn't net you much. At low percents, an opponent can hold down then punish the endlag (at 0% a CC isn't even needed).

What you're missing is your opponent's options and the risk. Marth hit by dash attack at 40% should be able to double jump to avoid getting hit by grounded up+b, and this combo would never work reliably on someone who knows what Link does. Second, there's risk. Link's up+B has I think 8 frames of startup, and OoS it's at fastest frame 9 (jumpsquat). The moves lasts for like 80 frames, so if the opponent shields the strong hit and drops shield, they still have like 30 frames to punish Link, enough time for even Bowser fsmash, or for Fox to start waveshining Link (<_<). If whiffed entirely, an opponent can jump over you and punish by hitting Link's head (Falco dair, for instance) [or if you're Marth, just tipper fsmash Link's pointy hat].

The strong hit combos from dthrow on Marth at 40% (I think), but to land the weak hit [the dangerous semi-spike] Marth would have to not be acting to let himself get hit by this.

Link's up+B is useful as an edgeguard or a punish for either commitment or something highly predictable (so spacie recoveries that go high, Fox dash attack, a Falco that always rolls behind you, etc.). But whiffing it usually leads to Link eating a lot of percent or a KO move (Luigi can up+B you for using it if you hit his shield).

Link's nair and bair are good, but they're just not enough (Fox and Falco have almost the same nair, and a wide variety of other tools). Projectiles are useful at lower levels for sure, but smartly using the projectiles isn't very easy [it's really hard and something I'm working on], and many people are extremely adept at dealing with projectiles (people who powershield Falco lasers? They'll powershield your bombs too.). All of this, combined with Link's slow jumpsquat and relatively slow speed, means that even as his best is avoiding shielding too much and keeping his opponents zoned out, he's not well-made to do those things.

Link is where he is on the tier list for a reason [I still say he should be higher than Young Link, but whatever - Young Link is a niche character but I think overall worse]. You can certainly win with him, but he's not exactly viable [there's a reason we don't have LInks placing in top 8 at nationals...although skill is part of that (SAUS and Lootic are good, but even the Falcons have like 5 guys and they rarely get one or two in top 8), some of that rests with Link as well.] This isn't to say either that one can't do better (to be totally honest, it's basically always the player - until someone literally gets out-frame data'd for a match, they can do better), but we're human (I think), and being consistent with someone outside the top 4 [Fox Falco Sheik Marth] is hard.

 

[Darklink401]

I think bomb jump recovery is sorta kinda ok if your opponent can't safely reach you to interrupt it and you can pull it off close enough to the stage to wall-tech and then up+b and be prepared to tech a subsequent attack. But that's super duper hard.

Also, we can wiggle out of tumble, but in order to get as close to the stage as possible, I've started messing with simply c-sticking a bair while holding toward the stage - on Dreamland at least, I'm usually high enough that this doesn't compromise my tether options, but it does mean I lose no horizontal distance [whereas the frames spent wiggling might compromise the distance ever so slightly].



Up+b is very high risk, high reward [at high percents], very very high risk, mediocre rewards at lower percents, and frankly begging for punishment at CC percents. At high percents it KOs. At mid percents it can be ok to punish some stuff [rolls] but doesn't net you much. At low percents, an opponent can hold down then punish the endlag (at 0% a CC isn't even needed).

What you're missing is your opponent's options and the risk. Marth hit by dash attack at 40% should be able to double jump to avoid getting hit by grounded up+b, and this combo would never work reliably on someone who knows what Link does. Second, there's risk. Link's up+B has I think 8 frames of startup, and OoS it's at fastest frame 9 (jumpsquat). The moves lasts for like 80 frames, so if the opponent shields the strong hit and drops shield, they still have like 30 frames to punish Link, enough time for even Bowser fsmash, or for Fox to start waveshining Link (<_<). If whiffed entirely, an opponent can jump over you and punish by hitting Link's head (Falco dair, for instance) [or if you're Marth, just tipper fsmash Link's pointy hat].

The strong hit combos from dthrow on Marth at 40% (I think), but to land the weak hit [the dangerous semi-spike] Marth would have to not be acting to let himself get hit by this.

Link's up+B is useful as an edgeguard or a punish for either commitment or something highly predictable (so spacie recoveries that go high, Fox dash attack, a Falco that always rolls behind you, etc.). But whiffing it usually leads to Link eating a lot of percent or a KO move (Luigi can up+B you for using it if you hit his shield).

Link's nair and bair are good, but they're just not enough (Fox and Falco have almost the same nair, and a wide variety of other tools). Projectiles are useful at lower levels for sure, but smartly using the projectiles isn't very easy [it's really hard and something I'm working on], and many people are extremely adept at dealing with projectiles (people who powershield Falco lasers? They'll powershield your bombs too.). All of this, combined with Link's slow jumpsquat and relatively slow speed, means that even as his best is avoiding shielding too much and keeping his opponents zoned out, he's not well-made to do those things.

Link is where he is on the tier list for a reason [I still say he should be higher than Young Link, but whatever - Young Link is a niche character but I think overall worse]. You can certainly win with him, but he's not exactly viable [there's a reason we don't have LInks placing in top 8 at nationals...although skill is part of that (SAUS and Lootic are good, but even the Falcons have like 5 guys and they rarely get one or two in top 8), some of that rests with Link as well.] This isn't to say either that one can't do better (to be totally honest, it's basically always the player - until someone literally gets out-frame data'd for a match, they can do better), but we're human (I think), and being consistent with someone outside the top 4 [Fox Falco Sheik Marth] is hard.

What's CC? And jumpsquat? x.x

Also, I think I understand it more now. However to remove the risk, cant you just up B with a bomb, and not receive the endlag? It still damages you, in the end, but its sort of like an eject button, right?


As for powershielding bombs, if you z-drop a bomb onto a shield, it will keep bouncing, right? =3 Isn't that a good opportunity to pressure them?


I guess Link's spot kinda makes sense on the tier list, because despite having quite a few good tools, his overall arsenal and speed are not that impressive... >.<''

I still plan to stick with him tho.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

What's CC? And jumpsquat?

CC stands for Crouch Canceling. It's a technique that exploits the fact that when you crouch you will suffer less knockback from attacks, at lower percentages you will barely flinch from most attacks in the game. Heavier characters are better than lighter characters when it comes to this.

Jumpsquat? I guess he refers to the fact that when you do attacks OoS(Out of Shield) you need to first cancel the shield with a jump and then cancel it into something else, forcing you to suffer at least 1 frame of lag from the jump.

Also, I think I understand it more now. However to remove the risk, cant you just up B with a bomb, and not receive the endlag? It still damages you, in the end, but its sort of like an eject button, right?

You can! But most Links don't have this as a part of their playstyle. I'm not really sure why, In my playstyle I don't use this tehnique cause when I got a bomb in hand and search for a kill I tend to go for a bomb combo like bomb->uair or bomb->dair. You can throw bombs OoS too.

As for powershielding bombs, if you z-drop a bomb onto a shield, it will keep bouncing, right? =3 Isn't that a good opportunity to pressure them?

Yes you can pressure them by dropping bombs on their shield. It's pretty useful when you are in a position where you can do it. But keep in mind that in most matchups you want to keep the distance, so most of the time you will be too far to make use of it a lot. But nothing is set in stone, please experiment and see if you can make use of it more.

I guess Link's spot kinda makes sense on the tier list, because despite having quite a few good tools, his overall arsenal and speed are not that impressive... >.<''

I still plan to stick with him tho.

He is a fun character, lots of small tricks to be used everywhere, lots of combo options and lots of recovery options.

 

[Darklink401]

CC stands for Crouch Canceling. It's a technique that exploits the fact that when you crouch you will suffer less knockback from attacks, at lower percentages you will barely flinch from most attacks in the game. Heavier characters are better than lighter characters when it comes to this.

Jumpsquat? I guess he refers to the fact that when you do attacks OoS(Out of Shield) you need to first cancel the shield with a jump and then cancel it into something else, forcing you to suffer at least 1 frame of lag from the jump.

You can! But most Links don't have this as a part of their playstyle. I'm not really sure why, In my playstyle I don't use this tehnique cause when I got a bomb in hand and search for a kill I tend to go for a bomb combo like bomb->uair or bomb->dair. You can throw bombs OoS too.

Yes you can pressure them by dropping bombs on their shield. It's pretty useful when you are in a position where you can do it. But keep in mind that in most matchups you want to keep the distance, so most of the time you will be too far to make use of it a lot. But nothing is set in stone, please experiment and see if you can make use of it more.

He is a fun character, lots of small tricks to be used everywhere, lots of combo options and lots of recovery options.

Oh right. Crouch cancelling XP haha. Thanks, I've never seen it abbreviated as CC. I forget, is Link a heavy in this game? Cuz I know he's definitely quite heavy in Smash 4.

Is jump-cancelled bombthrow useful to make the bomb to uair or dair easier?


True enough, I guess xD The only time I'd be able to use it is if they actually have me cornered, so I gotta jump over them.


I think Link can definitely hold his own in most matchups, due to his gimmickyness xD I saw the MU chart for Link (IDK if its updated or not) but he seems to only do badly against the top tiers, namely Fox, but does seem to have an even MU or advantageous MU with anyone below S rank, sans Mario and a couple others.

 

[Icyo]

@ SAUS just became one of my favorite players with that 2-1 victory over The Moon.