Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Balance patch? Where?

*Hopes for D-tilt end lag decreased and F-air is not basically airdodge landing lag when landing*

During the Direct, there was a mention of a balance patch in version 1.0.6 (along with sharing replays and getting DLC).

 

[Gombi]

Please patch the cyclone recovery insane mashing haha

 

[FalKoopa]

Looks like we'll have to redo the match-ups, haha. Oh well.

 

[TriTails]

Well, unless the balance patch only fixes little things (Which I seriously doubt), looks like we all have to start over for accuracy's sake.

Thank goodness we haven't gone all that far.

 

[SuperOven]

Can we talk about olimar please? I'm kind of at a loss against sufficiently good olimars. He can wrack up large damage without ever approaching, and stuffs every thing with pivot grabs and forward smashes. What do you do?

And it only gets 10x worse when they use pikmin tackle custom. What works? Because besides waiting for olimar to get impatient (which he has no good reason to) I can't get in at all.

 

[SirJuicius]

Can we talk about olimar please? I'm kind of at a loss against sufficiently good olimars. He can wrack up large damage without ever approaching, and stuffs every thing with pivot grabs and forward smashes. What do you do?

And it only gets 10x worse when they use pikmin tackle custom. What works? Because besides waiting for olimar to get impatient (which he has no good reason to) I can't get in at all.

Olimars can be a nuisance for any player. One thing you should not do is worry about the Pikmin that latch onto you. Fair detaches them and kills them. Get him down to only one Pikmin and stay close. As long as Olimar has only one Pikmin, he becomes a non-threat. Since he needs Pikmin to attack, he wouldn't want to throw the only Pikmin he has left, otherwise it would leave him open. If that were to happen, either just take some damage and pursue Olimar with offensive pressure, or fair the Pikmin and then rush toward Olimar. If Olimar is using that Pikmin to attack, he'll be vulnerable.

If Olimar is using F-Smash... read it, then short hop over the Pikmin and while fast-falling, land whatever air attack you think will connect. Luigi Cyclone could work as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't underestimate an Olimar with no Pikmin. Jab is competent and easily gives him space, utilt
and nair combo well, and ftilt can net surprising KOs.

Oh and I'm sorry, but if Olimar is spacing his non-purple fsmashes to hit at max distance and not being
greedy with their close-range sweetspots, the only thing Luigi has that'll reach him after a short hop
is cyclone, which is punishable.

 

[TriTails]

Uh...

I'll just spotdodge next time.

 

[Deleted member]

Damn...
I need some help against Yoshi. His aerials and Egg Throw are just too good.

 

[hey_there]

Damn...
I need some help against Yoshi. His aerials and Egg Throw are just too good.

You can bait his aerials and strike back with uairs. Egg Throw seems impossible to approach through, but it actually has a bunch of end lag. If Yoshi over commits to an egg (say, by bating it out) that's a punish for you. His jab combo and dash attack are both very strong though and come out very quickly, so make sure not to run into him. I repeat, do not run in recklessly, he will punish you very hard. And his edge guarding is very potent between eggs stealing your jump, fair spikes, dropzone uairs, and just regular nairs knocking you back, so make absolutely sure to mix up your recovery path so he can't predict you.

Yoshi's nair can combo break just like Luigi's, so don't push for much more than a 2-hit combo. After those hits he'll usually nair, which is when you strike with whatever (uair (back hit) -> bair, usmash, etc.). Bair/dair isn't as safe as it seems, just make sure to block all the hits before going for a punish, and only if he lands too close to you, otherwise you might just run into a jab. Any of Yoshi's badly spaced aerials on shield is a free OoS nair.

Hope my thoughts help!

 

[Deleted member]

After seeing a barrage of crappy Mewtwos in For Glory, I did find a couple of good ones and I will give my initial impressions on the match-up.

This match-up will potentially be tricky for us. Mewtwo's physics and air speed enable him to get away from Luigi's down throw combos, which is problematic as Mewtwo has some pretty good aerials (such as his neutral air and forward air). Mewtwo also has some insane range with his back air, allowing him to potentially gimp us and probably space us.
However, Mewtwo is fairly light, his smash attacks have noticeable end lag, and he is a pretty big target all things considered. We need to figure out a way to exploit said weaknesses...

This will take a month or two to figure out for sure. I think that this match-up may be even, if not in Mewtwo's favor.

 

[hey_there]

I only managed to play one good Mewtwo today. Dtilt is amazing at keeping Luigi at a distance, but he dies ridiculously early to dthrow -> cyclone. Like, 80-90% early (with a bit of rage, of course).

 

[Yonder]

I have to agree that Mewtwo is tricky, his range is insanely good at keeping Luigi out, along with Shadow ball. He's also kind of hard to combo surprisingly from a D throw, so Luigi should use falling nairs for setting things up here. Fireball isn't too helpful either due to his reflector properties, fast and not too laggy. But Luigi can hit him if hit by confusion...I did it with a fair once. Also, Mewtwo is very easy to kill due to his frame and weight, there's usually just enough lag on his smashes to land an up B. Mewtwo can edgeguard very well too, it's impossble to edgeguard Mewtwo basically.

 

[TriTails]

Guys.

I need help on approaching Mega Man.

Seriously, how the **** do you approach this robot with Luigi?
Pellets stuffs your approachs.
Jump willl net you an U-smash or D-smash to your face
Cyclone gets stopped by pellets, and give him a punish
Run away he'll F-tilt you like a bully

Help please. I'm convinced this MU is solidly 7-3 in Mega's favor and may get even worse with customs.

 

[False]

Luigi... does not lose... to villager....

 

[Kujasauce]

Speaking of challenging match-ups, I nominate Little Mac.
I dunno how to fight him with Luigi and I get wrecked against a good one because I have no idea what to do. 99% of the time, I switch to Shulk for this fight...
That's not good.
I also thought R.O.B. was a bad match-up for Luigi as well. I kinda stand by that to be honest because his gimping is powerful against Luigi, as well as his tools to keep Luigi away. Maybe 55:45 R.O.B. from me.


I haven't fought too many WFTs, but from my experience Sun Salutation and the Soccer Ball are effective at keeping Luigi away and he can't really respond to those moves. Still, Luigi has an easier time KOing WFT and I think he can easily combo her.
Maybe the match-up is 60:40 or 55:45, Luigi. I need more experience.

One more random thing I want to bring up:
I fought a pretty good Palutena recently. I just want to say that her Reflect Barrier (and the wind hitboxes of her side and down smashes) can limit Luigi's approach since it pushes him away. Autoreticle is like this, but less so because the projectiles are easily blockable.
I will say beware at higher percents; I believe she has a set-up for her long ranged, powerful up smash.
I still need to fight some more Palutenas before I can say for sure how to deal with her (I think it's in Luigi's favor, though).

I have a friend that plays palutena, and it usually ends with luigi on top. ALL of her moves have ending lag enough to punish. The issue is the wings that make luigi slide all over the damn place. Just stay on top of her and bait out the moves with lag, and that shouldn't be a problem. The palutena I play against is good at reading the rolls, so spot dodging is a must too.

Guys.

I need help on approaching Mega Man.

Seriously, how the **** do you approach this robot with Luigi?
Pellets stuffs your approachs.
Jump willl net you an U-smash or D-smash to your face
Cyclone gets stopped by pellets, and give him a punish
Run away he'll F-tilt you like a bully

Help please. I'm convinced this MU is solidly 7-3 in Mega's favor and may get even worse with customs.

I don't have a good mega man in my area to play, and Internet is slow, but a lot of mega man's moves have end lag. Trick him into a uair with a short hop and fastfall and run in? Do fireballs overtake lemons?

 

[Yonder]

I don't have a good mega man in my area to play, and Internet is slow, but a lot of mega man's moves have end lag. Trick him into a uair with a short hop and fastfall and run in? Do fireballs overtake lemons?

Fireballs do clank with all of Megaman's projectiles sans the charge shot I think. Also when Megaman whiffs a D smash = free Up B.

And friendly reminder to try and not double post. Just edit your original post with your additional info.

Luigi... does not lose... to villager....

He doesn't? I struggle with this matchup a lot, but I'd like to hear why Luigi doesn't lose. I'm assuming you're the False Luigi player that placed in Apex so your knowledge would be valuable. How to avoid gyros? Recovery gimps? Pockets?



On another note, I think the Samus:Luigi matchup should be changed to 60:40 or even 55:45. I think charge shot is really THAT good here. Fair is also amazing here. The rest of her projectiles and other specs are pretty worthless though. I just can't look at the matchup chart and see DK having an easier time than Samus lol.

 

[TriTails]

Uh...

You just running to shield Samus' Charge Shot.

Yeah, people will usually go like 'BUM BUM BAM! WEEGEE HEZ NO TRACTION!'. Yeah, but who's to say that Charge Shot pushes Luigi so far? This isn't LM's F-smash lol. Seriously, I just slowly make my way in. All I respect from Samus are her Up-b and Charge Shot. Everything else is pretty much worthless.

By gyros I supporse you mean rockets? Fireballs stuffs them all.

Villager won't bother trying to pocket your Fireballs because you'll just clank them with another of your own.

Okay, for gimps, Villager destroys Luigi here. Try to buy your time with Cyclone or snap to that ledge real quickly. Meanwhile, he is almost impossible to gimp.

Though, I'd like to hear False's reasoning as well. My MU matches reviews reeks of FG experience.

 

[Kujasauce]

Fireballs do clank with all of Megaman's projectiles sans the charge shot I think. Also when Megaman whiffs a D smash = free Up B.

And friendly reminder to try and not double post. Just edit your original post with your additional info.



He doesn't? I struggle with this matchup a lot, but I'd like to hear why Luigi doesn't lose. I'm assuming you're the False Luigi player that placed in Apex so your knowledge would be valuable. How to avoid gyros? Recovery gimps? Pockets?



On another note, I think the Samus:Luigi matchup should be changed to 60:40 or even 55:45. I think charge shot is really THAT good here. Fair is also amazing here. The rest of her projectiles and other specs are pretty worthless though. I just can't look at the matchup chart and see DK having an easier time than Samus lol.

Sorry! :x

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Sorry! :x

You better be, son!


Don't listen to this guy, he's a poop butt

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I've found that's it's pretty easy to nullify Villager's entire game with Fireball spam at mid-range. Villager can't do anything here. Fireball stop Lloid, stop dash attack (after patch dash attack beats sour spot Fireball). Villager can't hit you with a Fair or Bair at mid-range. If they Lloid, you can just run up and punish. Run->shield is really good here. Villager's slow grab will either allow you to avoid and punish or Villager won't risk using it at all. The only option to approach is SH Dair, which is unsafe. Don't give Villager too much space. When they plant a tree, stay out of range and Fireball. The hardest part of this fight is returning to the stage. You stop Villager from getting you offstage, you win


Oh yeah and Mega Man is near impoosible. For me at least. Heavy pellet usage makes it waaay too difficult to approach. The only thing I see here is baiting grabs by shielding a lot and pushing Mega Man to a corner while he keeps trying to push you out with pellets. Once you get in you MUST stay in. And maximize edgeguard opportunities.

 

[TriTails]

Hey...

At least isn't as screwed as THIS guy vs Mega Man.

 

[FalKoopa]

So... of the few match-ups we've done till now, does nay of them need a redo? Diddy was hit quite hard, so I was think if he should be discussed again.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think it's still the same

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Is there an order of people your going to discuss about?
Can we d Kirby or Zelda?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm an Ike main and I struggle tremendously against Luigi. I'm really looking for some MU practice or tips to get better against him.

Hoping someone can enlighten me on a better way to tackle the matchup. Fireball-dash grab, offstage game while I'm on the stage, his ability to build damage, Bair, and Luigi Cyclone are all very problematic. I'm wondering what Luigi players struggle most with against Ike.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Luigi players see Ike (or any heavy character) and automatically think...combo food. This means that we'll most likely be fishing for grabs. Fireballs don't have much hitstun at all. If you're falling victim to the Fireball->Grab setup a lot then you should think about tanking or Power Shielding the Fireball and immediately jabbing. For Luigi players who thrive off grabs, this will deeply hinder their gameplan because they can't grab as effectively. This also racks up good damage. Approaching Luigi is a whole different animal. Fireballs make it a real chore to get in on Luigi. I'd recommend FF Nairs to block Fireballs while keeping yourself mobile.

If Ike is forced to use side B to recover then I believe he's as good as dead. Fireballs stop all momentum of side B. If you're close enough to Up B then recovering should no longer be an issue. Edgeguarding Luigi won't be easy. He can recover from very low (an area Ike cannot touch). The best options are to attempt a Bair stage spike on his Up B or a Fair if they side B too high.

 

[TriTails]

Edgeguarding Luigi won't be easy.

Story time:

...This story begins when I had a match against Ike in Arena Ferox. We were down to our last stock, but I was in the lead. We were brawling when he got a hit on me and flung me far, thankfully, not into the blast zone.

I reflexively charged my Green Missile, readying myself incase he tried to go out and attack me. But much to my surprise, he
didn't. He just stood at the edge, holding his sword above his head. I raised an eyebrow, but I shrugged it off and Missile'd away.

And again, even when I'm vunerable on my Missile, he still didn't attacked me. I was wondering what he'd do, but I wasn't able to think long, I quickly used my Luigi Cyclone and spun as fast as I could, and I rose.

But just when I made it to belowledge, where I mistakenly think I was safe, I heard a VERY loud roar and a BIG explosion. My body suddenly felt a massive amount of pain, burnt pain, and I was sent upwards REALLY fast. The pain was too much to handle, and I was knocked out cold. Then I heard, 'GAME!'.

Before anyone can tend my teleported body, I could barely hear, "AND THE WINNER IS..." "I fight for my friends" "IKE!". And then when I felt hands touching me, I fainted on the spot.

Later....

I shakily opened my eyes. I realized I was in medical room, and I still felt burnt pain coursing through my body. "Wha-", I said, as I tried to sit, but I winced.

"So you're finally awake", I heard a voice called. It was my brother, Dr. Mario.

"Bro... Where am I?", I asked as I looked at my surroundings. Rosalina smiled at me while Dr. Mario stood beside the bed. I can see Ike whistling on the corner, trying to ignore my presence.

"Medical room", Dr. Mario said.

"What happened to me? Did... I lose?", I inquired again.

"Unfortunately, yes", he replied. "As for what happened to you...".

"What? What happened?", I asked once more.

Dr. Mario silenced, before saying...

"...You got hit by a fully charged Eruption".

THE END!

Pretty sure you guys can see what I meant . (Though, the fanfic thing was pretty unneccesary... But IDC!).

And yes, this DID happened to me.

And yes, it sucks.

And yes, it gotta be hurt for our green plumber.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I wanna talk about a match-up I particularly struggle with, gosh this guy gives me nightmares.
So, not only can he just kill you with a side tilt because of your lack of sideways recovery options, but his side b down tilt combo works on you too. Luigi isn't the best for edge guarding this guy either, as sometimes you will get command grabbed from his recovery. And I might sound like an idiot when I say this, but its SO hard to get in on this guy without him getting the same amount as damage as you would get in 1 attack. His jab can stop your fireballls, and he has decent range compared to luigi.

Though I do find this matchup to be 3.5-6.5 in ganon's favor, which isn't completely bad for luigi.

 

[Yonder]

I wanna talk about a match-up I particularly struggle with, gosh this guy gives me nightmares.
So, not only can he just kill you with a side tilt because of your lack of sideways recovery options, but his side b down tilt combo works on you too. Luigi isn't the best for edge guarding this guy either, as sometimes you will get command grabbed from his recovery. And I might sound like an idiot when I say this, but its SO hard to get in on this guy without him getting the same amount as damage as you would get in 1 attack. His jab can stop your fireballls, and he has decent range compared to luigi.

Though I do find this matchup to be 3.5-6.5 in ganon's favor, which isn't completely bad for luigi.

Whaa? 6.5 in Ganonfavor? I have to heavily disagree. I think we beat Ganondorf that badly, this is Luigi's best matchup in the whole game. Ganondorf has little answers to fireballs [can't jump them, can't outspeed them like Falcon] I know you said jab stops them but his jab is too slow compared to fireballs, he will get overwhelmed and he can't sit there all day trying to deflect them while Luigi gradually moves in due to no endlag. I think Ganondorf's jab has more endlag so won't work. Ganondorf is probably the easiest character in the game to combo, he's hard not to rack up 50+ on him from d throw to a few utilts and a fast falled nair due to his sheer size and weight. Offstage he s fairly easy to edgeguard, a fast falled dair will spike him almost everytime. Even one fair! I mean, I have yet to struggle with Ganondorf [except customs on dart fists because that move is OP] so the only thing to watch for in this matchup for Luigi is getting edgeguarded. Ganondorf being able to kill earlier goes for everyone so that too. Really, use fireballs enough and Ganondorf will be a sitting duck. And Ganondorf has a lot of moves with endlag enough for a shoryuken. So yeah, probably Luigi's best matchup in the game. At least DK has massive range over Luigi to compensate for being combo food.

 

[Deleted member]

Whaa? 6.5 in Ganonfavor? I have to heavily disagree. I think we beat Ganondorf that badly, this is Luigi's best matchup in the whole game. Ganondorf has little answers to fireballs [can't jump them, can't outspeed them like Falcon] I know you said jab stops them but his jab is too slow compared to fireballs, he will get overwhelmed and he can't sit there all day trying to deflect them while Luigi gradually moves in due to no endlag. I think Ganondorf's jab has more endlag so won't work. Ganondorf is probably the easiest character in the game to combo, he's hard not to rack up 50+ on him from d throw to a few utilts and a fast falled nair due to his sheer size and weight. Offstage he s fairly easy to edgeguard, a fast falled dair will spike him almost everytime. Even one fair! I mean, I have yet to struggle with Ganondorf [except customs on dart fists because that move is OP] so the only thing to watch for in this matchup for Luigi is getting edgeguarded. Ganondorf being able to kill earlier goes for everyone so that too. Really, use fireballs enough and Ganondorf will be a sitting duck. And Ganondorf has a lot of moves with endlag enough for a shoryuken. So yeah, probably Luigi's best matchup in the game. At least DK has massive range over Luigi to compensate for being combo food.

This I agree with.

Though, Ganondorf is still pretty scary recovering off-stage with the side B alone. He's unpredictable; he will either attempt to recover or bring you down with him. I honestly hate attacking him off-stage for this reason and because of Luigi's poor range.

Still, Luigi excels at racking up damage against Ganon. Ganondorf is a slow and large target, which basically makes him combo meat with poor defenses for Luigi. While the jab cancels the Fireballs, that isn't enough to stop them entirely. He can't react beyond that and I don't think such a thing can be used to his advantage. It's not like Little Mac who has a super fast jab and could possibly follow up with a Jolt Haymaker.

I will say that perhaps Luigi's traction here is probably a liability. I lost a match against a Ganondorf because I shielded, he hit me, I slid, and then he down aerials me to my doom.

 

[Yonder]

This I agree with.

Though, Ganondorf is still pretty scary recovering off-stage with the side B alone. He's unpredictable; he will either attempt to recover or bring you down with him. I honestly hate attacking him off-stage for this reason and because of Luigi's poor range.

Still, Luigi excels at racking up damage against Ganon. Ganondorf is a slow and large target, which basically makes him combo meat with poor defenses for Luigi. While the jab cancels the Fireballs, that isn't enough to stop them entirely. He can't react beyond that and I don't think such a thing can be used to his advantage. It's not like Little Mac who has a super fast jab and could possibly follow up with a Jolt Haymaker.

I will say that perhaps Luigi's traction here is probably a liability. I lost a match against a Ganondorf because I shielded, he hit me, I slid, and then he down aerials me to my doom.

Yes, exactly. Ganoncides are scary, I will say Ganon's F tilt in this matchup too. Luigi's traction is extra problematic here. But still I think Luigi wins this one more than 60:40, a rarity for Luigi. I usually make the effort to fair him once away due to his poor recovery distance in spite of ganoncide risk. Like Falcon, his up b dive sets up an amazing dair spike from experience. I always go for the spike against Falcon but with Ganon I switch between that and fair just because of the slower speed of ganondorf actually making it a bit riskier to pull off the dair spike. Fast dair spike + fast Falcon dive = high chance of landing the spike. Fast dair spike + slow Ganon dive = medium chance of landing the spike. Also with Mac yeah, Mac's superarmor on his smashes alone is what gives Mac a small advantage in that matchup [55:45-60:40 not a number higher]

 

[MonkeyArms]

Whaa? 6.5 in Ganonfavor? I have to heavily disagree. I think we beat Ganondorf that badly, this is Luigi's best matchup in the whole game. Ganondorf has little answers to fireballs [can't jump them, can't outspeed them like Falcon] I know you said jab stops them but his jab is too slow compared to fireballs, he will get overwhelmed and he can't sit there all day trying to deflect them while Luigi gradually moves in due to no endlag. I think Ganondorf's jab has more endlag so won't work. Ganondorf is probably the easiest character in the game to combo, he's hard not to rack up 50+ on him from d throw to a few utilts and a fast falled nair due to his sheer size and weight. Offstage he s fairly easy to edgeguard, a fast falled dair will spike him almost everytime. Even one fair! I mean, I have yet to struggle with Ganondorf [except customs on dart fists because that move is OP] so the only thing to watch for in this matchup for Luigi is getting edgeguarded. Ganondorf being able to kill earlier goes for everyone so that too. Really, use fireballs enough and Ganondorf will be a sitting duck. And Ganondorf has a lot of moves with endlag enough for a shoryuken. So yeah, probably Luigi's best matchup in the game. At least DK has massive range over Luigi to compensate for being combo food.

Allow me to give you some more disadvantages luigi has then.
Ganon only needs about 4-6 hits to kill you, which most he will get from stopping your approaches.
Just because ganon is combo food doesn't make him a good matchup for luigi, it takes much longer to kill ganon with luigi than most other characters. His down b can sometimes catch you by surprise out of your combos too, which will kill you by the way.
While you may think fireballs are a good approach, a good ganon will almost always perfect shield them, making you get in with your approaches, which is pretty hard to do on a good ganon sometimes.
From what I'm seeing here, you have never faced a mastered ganondorf. I have face multiple good ganons and when they know what they are doing it is much harder to beat them than you think.
Good ganons will only use laggy attacks when they are sure they are going to hit, so that's out of the picture.

DK on the other hand isn't that good against luigi. He struggles to edge guard him, is pathetically easy to edgeguard himself, and almost always when he uses a ranging attack it will be countered by luigis attacks. DK also does not have fast killing options like ganon does, the only real quick killing option he has is back air. DK virtually has no tools against luigi. He doesn't have a combo breaker, he struggles to hit attacks, and pretty much every attack he has to approach with is slow. DK is forced to approach. Ganondorf isn't. Last thing you want to do against luigi is approach him.

 

[Yonder]

Allow me to give you some more disadvantages luigi has then.
Ganon only needs about 4-6 hits to kill you, which most he will get from stopping your approaches.
Just because ganon is combo food doesn't make him a good matchup for luigi, it takes much longer to kill ganon with luigi than most other characters. His down b can sometimes catch you by surprise out of your combos too, which will kill you by the way.
While you may think fireballs are a good approach, a good ganon will almost always perfect shield them, making you get in with your approaches, which is pretty hard to do on a good ganon sometimes.
From what I'm seeing here, you have never faced a mastered ganondorf. I have face multiple good ganons and when they know what they are doing it is much harder to beat them than you think.
Good ganons will only use laggy attacks when they are sure they are going to hit, so that's out of the picture.

DK on the other hand isn't that good against luigi. He struggles to edge guard him, is pathetically easy to edgeguard himself, and almost always when he uses a ranging attack it will be countered by luigis attacks. DK also does not have fast killing options like ganon does, the only real quick killing option he has is back air. DK virtually has no tools against luigi. He doesn't have a combo breaker, he struggles to hit attacks, and pretty much every attack he has to approach with is slow. DK is forced to approach. Ganondorf isn't. Last thing you want to do against luigi is approach him.

Have to disagree again, the 4-6 hits apply for any character bing killed by Ganondorf. Why does it take longer to kill Ganondorf with Luigi than anyone else? D throw to Tornado is a simple kill, if Ganondorf down Bs in the air bait it and Up B on the ground or whatever. Luigi's kill moves work just as well on Ganondorf than anyone else. Fireballs are amazing against Ganondorf. All of this so far is mostly applicable to any character. You can powershield, but how's Ganondorf going to approach? He has to projectile himself. he has to come close. He can't sit and powershield 100% of all fireballs all day as Luigi closes in at the appropriate distance. Ganondorf will again get overwhelmed. As yes, I have versed good Ganondorfs in my area. The only time I really struggle is when Ganondorf has Dark Fists in customs on because it kills way too early and it's fairly reliable. As for DK, he does better than Ganondorf by miles. DK's bair shuts down all of Luigi's moves. All of them. It has barely any afterlag and it's range is incredible. I'd know, it was the sole reason I lost semifinals in my last tourney due to DK's bair. Luigi is helpless offstage to it, DK can chain then all day all and make it back no problem. Literally all he needs in this matchup is bair. You said it yourself, it is that good and Ganondorf has nothing nearly as good as that single attack. And DK can juggle Luigi well it up airs, it smashes through cyclone. DK's limbs are longer than Ganondorfs, he can keep Luigi out better and DK has better, much better mobility than Ganondorf and Luigi. Luigi can outrun Ganondorf on the ground but not DK OR the air which is huge. I stand by 60-40 Luigi vs DK and 65-35 Luigi vs Ganondorf

 

[MonkeyArms]

Have to disagree again, the 4-6 hits apply for any character bing killed by Ganondorf.

Before I go on to ACTUALLY make my reply, no matter how many characters it applies to, it still affects the match up. Saying it applies for every character does NOT change the match up in ANY WAY whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member]

Before I go on to ACTUALLY make my reply, no matter how many characters it applies to, it still affects the match up. Saying it applies for every character does NOT change the match up in ANY WAY whatsoever.

I do have to agree with this.
While Ganondorf's power is something that affects all characters, it's a major part of the match-up that we have to deal with.

However, I think that Luigi can exploit Ganondorf's key weaknesses quite well.
-Ganondorf is pretty slow and not mobile at all. He can use his jab to cancel our Fireballs, but that sort of tactic isn't very effective. Eventually, either Ganondorf will have to get in on Luigi or Luigi will punish Ganondorf. Perhaps he will eventually get punished by a Fireball after a jab if we consider the distance between two characters. He also doesn't have the running or air speed to counter or avoid such a measure. He may be a Captain Falcon clone, but he can rush, jump, and punish us like Captain Falcon can.
-Ganondorf is a very large and heavy target. While this heaviness does work in his favor as the Hoo-hahnado can't kill him earlier, it is also a curse against him in this case as Luigi can damage Ganondorf much easier. We can probably close in on Ganondorf and give him 50%-70% damage with minimal problems. We could do our usual down throw combos or maybe even up tilt combos and follow up with aerial combos. And, because he is large, he will be more prone to the down throw, down aerial meteor chain. That and combined with poor mobility makes Ganondorf's approach a lot more difficult with Fireball spam.
-Ganondorf's recovery is easily gimpable and predictable. A few good aerials will stop him, but we still need to be careful as Ganondorf's side B will take us down with him.

The side B is what I am most afraid of. We can't go aggro on him for this reason. A good Ganondorf will read you and endlessly punish you with the side B. So, we need to keep him at bay and then combo him when we get the chance I think.

 

[TriTails]

We need someone who knows Ganon through and through.

@ A2ZOMG ? Mind lending us a hand?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon got a buff in this matchup! At the range where Luigi's fireball only does 5%, Ganondorf does not clank with it when using fresh Dash Attack (which does 14%).

Though in close range, Ganon still struggles a lot to punish Luigi's fireball easily when clanking with the fireball with his ground moves leaves him at a punishable frame disadvantage (though it's worth keeping in mind that if Ganon can often be at a frame advantage in close range if he opts to simply get hit by the fireball instead when running in). This means in a custom environment, default Fireballs are actually better than Ice Balls in this matchup because Ganondorf can actually power through Ice Balls with his Dash Attack to control midrange and force Luigi on the defensive if he chooses that custom.

At any rate, Ganondorf generally has to guess in order to punish Luigi's fireball even when powershielding, and due to his low aerial mobility it's hard for him to get in range with aerials, though they do have good range and shield push which Luigi does have to be mindful of. Especially because Ganondorf does not have very quick attacks in close range, he also has to guess to defend against Luigi's grab. His 8 frame Jab is his fastest move and it's still quite laggy, though the recent damage buff it acquired is important in this matchup given it's one of Ganon's few responses to rushdown.

Both Ganon and Luigi kinda train wreck each other when they get rolling. Really...they both are able to juggle the crap out of each other and also have fairly limited ways to defend themselves offstage. However Ganon has to make riskier guesses generally and doesn't have the same extremely reliable KO confirm potential that Luigi has out of grab. D-throw cyclone as I recall is a KO option around 140ish, not really unlike Ness Back-throw, and Luigi has the potential to build possibly about half that damage in a good low% combo (something like D-throw -> aerials -> U-tilt -> stuff, I forget specifically what's optimal on Ganon).

I would believe this matchup is about 6/4 Luigi's favor. Luigi's huge combo game and ability to KO confirm are strong, but most importantly his ability to prevent Ganon from zoning with Dash Attack and aerials freely with his fireball make this matchup clearly favorable for him, though it's quite winnable for Ganon, just Ganon's forced to make a lot of risky guesses to play neutral when he can't rely as much on outpriotizing Luigi as he'd like in neutral to limit Luigi's decisions. If Luigi's Fireball universally did 1% less damage or Ganon's DA did 1% more damage, I would argue the matchup actually would be even. Clanking really puts limits on Ganon's neutral game here when Luigi is one of few characters that outright does not have to play around Ganon's Dash Attack.

I have not tried this matchup in customs, so I can't really add much else to that discussion, other than WDK being a little better for punishing predicted ground fireballs as well as improving Ganon's recovery. And of course Dark Fists is scary.

 

[Yonder]

Ganon got a buff in this matchup! At the range where Luigi's fireball only does 5%, Ganondorf does not clank with it when using fresh Dash Attack (which does 14%).

Though in close range, Ganon still struggles a lot to punish Luigi's fireball easily when clanking with the fireball with his ground moves leaves him at a punishable frame disadvantage (though it's worth keeping in mind that if Ganon can often be at a frame advantage in close range if he opts to simply get hit by the fireball instead when running in). This means in a custom environment, default Fireballs are actually better than Ice Balls in this matchup because Ganondorf can actually power through Ice Balls with his Dash Attack to control midrange and force Luigi on the defensive if he chooses that custom.

At any rate, Ganondorf generally has to guess in order to punish Luigi's fireball even when powershielding, and due to his low aerial mobility it's hard for him to get in range with aerials, though they do have good range and shield push which Luigi does have to be mindful of. Especially because Ganondorf does not have very quick attacks in close range, he also has to guess to defend against Luigi's grab. His 8 frame Jab is his fastest move and it's still quite laggy, though the recent damage buff it acquired is important in this matchup given it's one of Ganon's few responses to rushdown.

Both Ganon and Luigi kinda train wreck each other when they get rolling. Really...they both are able to juggle the crap out of each other and also have fairly limited ways to defend themselves offstage. However Ganon has to make riskier guesses generally and doesn't have the same extremely reliable KO confirm potential that Luigi has out of grab. D-throw cyclone as I recall is a KO option around 140ish, not really unlike Ness Back-throw, and Luigi has the potential to build possibly about half that damage in a good low% combo (something like D-throw -> aerials -> U-tilt -> stuff, I forget specifically what's optimal on Ganon).

I would believe this matchup is about 6/4 Luigi's favor. Luigi's huge combo game and ability to KO confirm are strong, but most importantly his ability to prevent Ganon from zoning with Dash Attack and aerials freely with his fireball make this matchup clearly favorable for him, though it's quite winnable for Ganon, just Ganon's forced to make a lot of risky guesses to play neutral when he can't rely as much on outpriotizing Luigi as he'd like in neutral to limit Luigi's decisions. If Luigi's Fireball universally did 1% less damage or Ganon's DA did 1% more damage, I would argue the matchup actually would be even. Clanking really puts limits on Ganon's neutral game here when Luigi is one of few characters that outright does not have to play around Ganon's Dash Attack.

I have not tried this matchup in customs, so I can't really add much else to that discussion, other than WDK being a little better for punishing predicted ground fireballs as well as improving Ganon's recovery. And of course Dark Fists is scary.

Well, that'll do it. I never play as Ganondorf so I only see the matchup from one side of the coin. This sounds about right. I just don't see Luigi losing this matchup in short. But I'll say now...watch for dark fists.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I have not tried this matchup in customs, so I can't really add much else to that discussion, other than WDK being a little better for punishing predicted ground fireballs as well as improving Ganon's recovery. And of course Dark Fists is scary.

I will say that ganons best down b custom does counter luigi's fireballs quite nicely, which makes the matchup more so even, if not in ganon's favor.