Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Gunla]

Skull Barrier... I like this on MM, but I can't recall if it reflects FCWS. Leaf Shield is incredibly slow and avoidable if thrown, but otherwise keeping distance is good, since all a Shielded MM can do is run into you or throw it. As for Plant Barrier, I haven't seen it used once against Gren.

 

[Ludiloco]

So I've played a few good the past couple days, or as good as they could possibly be so far.

I'm gonna break it down to the best of my ability at the very earliest point of this character's meta.

Mewtwo's positives in the MU: Mewtwo's shadow balls are very annoying, and can mess with our off stage game. The fully charged one is very hard to punish due to its aerial usage pushing Mewtwo way back and the ball dealing a ton of shield damage and pushback. The meandering path of the balls also can dip up and around shurikens, making camping him really ineffective as a strategy. Mewtwo is also very hard to follow up out of throw, his air dodge comes out ridiculously quick and lets him often avoid up air entirely. Mewtwo also possesses disjointed aerial hitboxes, and has a very good and powerful anti-air in his up smash and up tilt. Mewtwo has a lot of power and can kill Greninja early with up smash, up throw, and d smash, and is a little tougher to gimp than most characters due to his recovery warping through hydro pump and back air. Mewtwo's reflector also comes in handy against FCWS and Shifting Shuriken. This is about where the list ends.

Greninja's positives in the MU: Greninja runs absolute circles around M2. It doesn't even matter that M2 can't be outcamped in the MU, Greninja can easily run in and bob and weave to punish M2's laggy defensive reactions and moves. M2's air dodge may be very fast and last a while, but this can easily be read and followed up on. M2 struggles mightily to come down on Greninja with how floaty he is, and really has no good reaction than to push himself away with full shadow ball or to try to trade with a dair. You will find yourself racking up KOs with up smash, and I've found jab jab f smash to be incredibly effective as well due to M2's low falling speed and slow aerials.

Here's the major thing: M2 is super light. I KOed my friend's M2 with an uncharged f-smash (no rage) at the ledge at 60. I'm not sure if it surprised him and he didn't DI, but either way that's an absolute travesty of a weight class. This is one of the few MU I'd recommend a high ceiling stage, as we can KO him off the sides much faster than he can off the top in that scenario. M2's recovery is also very hard to sweet spot the ledge with, so prepare to punish accordingly should he poke his head above the stage.

Overall, this is probably one of Ninja's easier matchups but I wouldn't sleep on the kill power M2 possesses. 60:40 Ninja feels right for now, we'll see how the meta progresses.

 

[ephOE]

So I've played a few good the past couple days, or as good as they could possibly be so far.

I'm gonna break it down to the best of my ability at the very earliest point of this character's meta.

Mewtwo's positives in the MU: Mewtwo's shadow balls are very annoying, and can mess with our off stage game. The fully charged one is very hard to punish due to its aerial usage pushing Mewtwo way back and the ball dealing a ton of shield damage and pushback. The meandering path of the balls also can dip up and around shurikens, making camping him really ineffective as a strategy. Mewtwo is also very hard to follow up out of throw, his air dodge comes out ridiculously quick and lets him often avoid up air entirely. Mewtwo also possesses disjointed aerial hitboxes, and has a very good and powerful anti-air in his up smash and up tilt. Mewtwo has a lot of power and can kill Greninja early with up smash, up throw, and d smash, and is a little tougher to gimp than most characters due to his recovery warping through hydro pump and back air. Mewtwo's reflector also comes in handy against FCWS and Shifting Shuriken. This is about where the list ends.

Greninja's positives in the MU: Greninja runs absolute circles around M2. It doesn't even matter that M2 can't be outcamped in the MU, Greninja can easily run in and bob and weave to punish M2's laggy defensive reactions and moves. M2's air dodge may be very fast and last a while, but this can easily be read and followed up on. M2 struggles mightily to come down on Greninja with how floaty he is, and really has no good reaction than to push himself away with full shadow ball or to try to trade with a dair. You will find yourself racking up KOs with up smash, and I've found jab jab f smash to be incredibly effective as well due to M2's low falling speed and slow aerials.

Here's the major thing: M2 is super light. I KOed my friend's M2 with an uncharged f-smash (no rage) at the ledge at 60. I'm not sure if it surprised him and he didn't DI, but either way that's an absolute travesty of a weight class. This is one of the few MU I'd recommend a high ceiling stage, as we can KO him off the sides much faster than he can off the top in that scenario. M2's recovery is also very hard to sweet spot the ledge with, so prepare to punish accordingly should he poke his head above the stage.

Overall, this is probably one of Ninja's easier matchups but I wouldn't sleep on the kill power M2 possesses. 60:40 Ninja feels right for now, we'll see how the meta progresses.

Also of note, despite Mewtwo being one of the three lightest characters in the game, he's huge! He's definitely susceptible to juggling and Greninja has the mobility to keep up with most escape options Mewtwo has.

 

[Gunla]

Week 1 Begins with the following:

• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
• (?:?)
  
• (55:45)

Each of these weeks, I'll try and have us take a look at a previous matchup (usually 1 or 2) and see what revisions it needs.

 

[FullMoon]

I've said it before and I still believe it's 50:50. Greninja has the mobility and range to keep Mario in a safe distance from him and shurikens are just as disruptive for Mario as his fireballs are to us, however Mario's frame data is not to be underestimated as his moves are all really fast and come out faster than most of ours. Thanks to our fall speed, we're also really susceptible to his up-tilt chains and early combos which can let Mario get a big lead right off the bat.

Mario biggest issue is that he lacks in kill setups while we have plenty of ways to seal a stock. Edgeguarding Mario sounds easy in theory but I've found it to be surprisingly hard thanks to the start-up invencibility on his Up-B, however we still win the edgeguarding game because Mario will pretty much never manage to edgeguard us very well.

We really need to fear Mario at lower percentages because he can really rack up percentage against us very quickly and his fast moves mean it's harder for us to approach, which we likely will have to do since his cape can reflect our shurikens and we can't do the same to his fireballs. It's very easy for Mario to get an early lead against us and it can be tough to regain that lead. We definitely have an advantage at higher percentages though, since we can kill much more reliably than he can.

 

[Codaption]

Greninja may have a fantastic recovery, but don't forget Mario has his own water attack too. STAB damage (huehuehue pokemon terms) won't help you when you're falling to your doom.

Cape is also definitely worth noting, probably even more than F.L.U.D.D. since if he goes offstage you can't just sweetspot the ledge to avoid it.

 

[bc1910]

: I actually think we win this 60:40.

Mario has much better frame data, and is impossible to outcamp because of Fireballs and Cape. His low percent combos can be devastating, he can make great use of the fact that our OoS game sucks and we have to be careful when recovering because Cape totally f*cks Hydro Pump up.

However...

Almost all of his low percent combos are actually somewhat unreliable against us. We can shield in the middle of his Utilt chains and grab him really easily if he tries to start them below 15%. As a grab combo, Dthrow > Utilt won't work at low percents. Uthrow > Dair > Fair is way more dangerous but if we know it's coming, we can DI (away) and prevent the Fair from connecting.

Mario's mobility is good, but ours is better. We can't outcamp him but we can keep moving around whilst throwing Shurikens and he won't be able to catch us. By baiting fireballs out we can get him stuck in the fireball animation and thus don't have to worry about Cape too much. My general rule for this MU is to never throw more than one Shuriken in place, because the second one will get caped; instead, keep moving. Oh, and if he throws a fireball out while we're close, it's a free substitute punish.

His frame data is better than ours, but because our mobility is better than his we can avoid being in close range situations too often (this is where the MU with Fox falls apart; he has the mobility to catch us and force us to respect his rushdown). Also, we outrange him massively. Fair as a poke is extremely safe and Mario will have a hard time punishing it.

Greninja's short hop is a very convenient height for this MU in general, it puts us out of range of almost all of Mario's threatening moves (the BIG exception is Mario's Up Smash, keep that in mind) and lets us poke using Fair, Bair and sometimes Nair with relative safety.

Mario struggles to get kills. None of his kill moves are easy to land and this is amplified against a slippery character like Greninja. His edgeguarding is okay, but Shadow Sneak will screw it up. Just DON'T run into his Fsmash or Usmash, it's easily done when you're trying to stay mobile. At kill percent it's worth playing a little more conservatively. Greninja kind of struggles to get kills in general, but we can edgeguard Mario really hard. His recovery is linear and he can't recover high too effectively because fireballs don't move very fast in the air. The edgeguarding is what really separates the two characters and pushes this MU into Greninja's favour in my opinion.

EDIT: With regard to FLUDD, it's fairly easy to read the attack, or even react to the startup, and just airdodge, rendering it tricky to use against us (actually it's tricky to use against any player who doesn't commit to their recovery option too early). Hydro Pump doesn't face this issue because it's so much more versatile. You can angle it downward and even if they airdodge, they could get hit by it. If they don't get hit, they can fall too low to recover.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja may have a fantastic recovery, but don't forget Mario has his own water attack too. STAB damage (huehuehue pokemon terms) won't help you when you're falling to your doom.

Cape is also definitely worth noting, probably even more than F.L.U.D.D. since if he goes offstage you can't just sweetspot the ledge to avoid it.

From my experience with Mario, he's going to have a hard time gimping a Greninja who mixes up his recovery even if he does have F.L.U.D.D and the cape. The cape doesn't really do anything to Shadow Sneak and Greninja can just teleport past Mario if he tries to get us offstage. F.L.U.D.D also doesn't do much to Shadow Sneak other than placing Greninja a bit higher and he can still use Hydro Pump to jet away.

Both of those gimping methods are also easily avoided by recovering high or saving your double jump. Hydro Pump sends Greninja so far that he'll land and be able to act before Mario can reach him.

Cape and F.L.U.D.D pretty much only works as hard reads, Mario is unlikely to consistently gimp Greninja with them, the best he can hope for is a stage spike with B-Air when Greninja is recovering low.

 

[Codaption]

Hm...I hadn't considered Shadow Sneak, to be honest. Alright then, I'll take it from an actual Greninja main.

 

[FullMoon]

Hm...I hadn't considered Shadow Sneak, to be honest. Alright then, I'll take it from an actual Greninja main.

People tend to forget Shadow Sneak exists surprisingly often I've found. A lot of times when I see people discussing edgeguarding Greninja I think to myself "These guys do know we can teleport, right?"

Mario struggles to get kills. None of his kill moves are easy to land and this is amplified against a slippery character like Greninja. His edgeguarding is okay, but Shadow Sneak will screw it up. Just DON'T run into his Fsmash or Usmash, it's easily done when you're trying to stay mobile. At kill percent it's worth playing a little more conservatively. Greninja kind of struggles to get kills in general, but we can edgeguard Mario really hard. His recovery is linear and he can't recover high too effectively because fireballs don't move very fast in the air. The edgeguarding is what really separates the two characters and pushes this MU into Greninja's favour in my opinion.

Edgeguarding Mario is not that easy, the fireballs really do get in the way of trying to hit him offstage into the blastzone and trying to stage spike him when he's recovering low can prove to be risky because if you get hit by the Up-B you're at a big risk of being stage spiked yourself, plus it has some invencibility on it that can really mess timing the attack.

It's a significant advantage we have but I don't think it's enough to make the MU go into our favor when Mario has a very strong neutral game against us.

 

[bc1910]

People tend to forget Shadow Sneak exists surprisingly often I've found. A lot of times when I see people discussing edgeguarding Greninja I think to myself "These guys do know we can teleport, right?"



Edgeguarding Mario is not that easy, the fireballs really do get in the way of trying to hit him offstage into the blastzone and trying to stage spike him when he's recovering low can prove to be risky because if you get hit by the Up-B you're at a big risk of being stage spiked yourself, plus it has some invencibility on it that can really mess timing the attack.

It's a significant advantage we have but I don't think it's enough to make the MU go into our favor when Mario has a very strong neutral game against us.

Yeah you're right, fireballs do get in the way and edgeguarding Mario isn't a brainless endeavour. However, fireballs have such poor movement speed in the air that they're really only a threat if Mario is recovering high. In my experience, Greninja's vertical mobility is so good (it may be the best in the game overall, as he has the 2nd highest jumps and 3rd highest fall/fastfall speed) that he can jump up and over the fireballs to threaten Mario with a Bair.

Greninja is also able to jump high enough to be able to toss shurikens at Mario as he tries to recover high, forcing airdodges and making it easier to make him fall into an Usmash near the ledge. Once again, because Greninja jumps so high, he can simply get level with Mario and toss shurikens over the fireballs.

I don't try to stage spike much because good players just tech anyway. Mario's Up B gets completely wrecked by Hydro Pump unless he does it really close to (practically under) the stage, which can cause Hydro Pump to hit him but let him snap to the ledge anyway. In this case, Mario has to commit to recovering low and is vulnerable to being hit with a Bair on the way down. It's easier to do if you can hit with a shuriken, because they'll halt Mario's horizontal momentum.

 

[ephOE]

I've said it before and I still believe it's 50:50. Greninja has the mobility and range to keep Mario in a safe distance from him and shurikens are just as disruptive for Mario as his fireballs are to us, however Mario's frame data is not to be underestimated as his moves are all really fast and come out faster than most of ours. Thanks to our fall speed, we're also really susceptible to his up-tilt chains and early combos which can let Mario get a big lead right off the bat.

Mario biggest issue is that he lacks in kill setups while we have plenty of ways to seal a stock. Edgeguarding Mario sounds easy in theory but I've found it to be surprisingly hard thanks to the start-up invencibility on his Up-B, however we still win the edgeguarding game because Mario will pretty much never manage to edgeguard us very well.

We really need to fear Mario at lower percentages because he can really rack up percentage against us very quickly and his fast moves mean it's harder for us to approach, which we likely will have to do since his cape can reflect our shurikens and we can't do the same to his fireballs. It's very easy for Mario to get an early lead against us and it can be tough to regain that lead. We definitely have an advantage at higher percentages though, since we can kill much more reliably than he can.

Greninja is actually somewhat safe from Utilt strings, he can easily get down to the ground and shield or cancel the hitstun early on with Shadow Sneak. What you most need to be concerned about are mixups like Utilt > grab or Up B (a very smart option), but it's rare for your average Mario player to go for these when they usually expect to be able to rack up % quickly. Mario has an easier time juggling Greninja in the air than on the ground after those low % strings are no longer achievable. Mario definitely deserves a certain respect early on in the match. I'm not sure how similar his frame data is to Luigi's, but Mario's Nair is still a decent combo-breaker, and his Up B and Dair to a lesser extent. Mario's dash attack has an obnoxiously long-lasting hitbox.

If Mario's biggest issue is lack of kill setups, his next biggest issue is easily his lack of range. Mario struggles against disjointed hitboxes (read: Fair). Many of Greninja's attacks easily outrange Mario. Things to be careful of however are that his F smash is truly disjointed at the sweetspot and hit Up Smash has short invulnerability on the head. Since pretty much every attack Greninja has extends his own hurtbox, this can be dangerous - you might think you're safe to throw out Jab when Mario can actually just run up and F smash Greninja's webby hand things. But seriously: Forward Air. Apex 2015 aMSa vs. Ally - review those matches!

FLUDD is almost entirely useless on Greninja's recovery, especially if you save your second jump. Hyrdo Pump is way more useful on stage than FLUDD as well (no charge required).

Cape is obviously dangerous to FC WS.

Fireballs are decent zoning projectiles but Greninja can run and dash attack underneath them. They are also slow - easy to Substitute. Mario's that like to drop them from full jump height are asking to be Up Smashed, especially if they get predicatble with their B reversals.

Shadow Sneak is ...ok for getting behind fireballs. It can actually be useful for edge gaurding, Mario's recovery path is generally very predictable.

When we recover, we can usually navigate around whatever Mario decides to do. His Fair can be a mean dunk though so try not to be obvious.

If I had to put a ratio to it I would say 55:45, just a slight advantage to Greninja. But I agree with @ FullMoon - respect the red plumber. We can't just rush into Mario's "bubble" and try to out box him, we've got to play outside of his range as much as we can. Mario is a great character in this game and really, really benefits from creative players with a wide variety of mixups. I think the only stage that might be advantageous for Mario would be Lylat, because Fireballs usually don't suffer there the way Shuriken do.

 

[Macchiato]

Welp since I'm a Wii fit main I'll say it's 5-5 actually. I'll give my reasons tmr I'm tired but I played @ FullMoon a lot today so he can help with that MU. You should upload a video as a visual example, I would do it but no capture card. Tmr I'll post my long thoughts.

 

[Ludiloco]

I've played a few really good Wii Fits, this is my analysis.

's positives in the MU: Wii Fit's frame data is better than Greninja's, and their attacks will often beat ours in close quarters. Sun Salutation is a better projectile than WS, and at the end of the day we will be forced to approach. Wii Fit commands a lot more respect at the edge and off stage then most of the cast, as they have multiple ways to take your stock if you try to chase them off the stage. Their dair and the initial hit of the soccer ball meteor, and their bair is a potent stage spiking move. Even the hula hoops' hitbox can be very annoying to Greninja during gimp attempts, as getting behind it to bair them into the stage often leads to taking a small hit from the hoops and missing your chance. The soccer ball also allows WFT to camp the ledge much more safely than most characters in the game, and will punish your attempts to hit them during their ledge vulnerability.

's positives in the MU: When deep breathing is not applied, you're going to be living to 150% and beyond. WFT struggle to take stocks of any character that doesn't foolishly challenge them offstage or let them get deep breathing up. The move takes a ton of time to accomplish, so if you see them going for it rush in to challenge it (beware though as they can act out of it almost immediately). WFT's model and fall speed is exactly what Greninja dreams of: they are tall and floaty. This means it is very hard for WFT to get out of being juggled without being confusing with their movement. Greninja's mobility makes it very hard for WFT to land a solid hit on us, and our low profile means that when we get buried by jab 3 f-smash will not hit us (we are also able to crouch quite a few of WFT's moves, so d-tilt is a great move in this MU). Just due to mobility alone I think we win on the stage and in the air. Offstage, we almost have to let WFT have the ledge because of how annoying the soccer ball can be. I tend to stand back and throw FCWS between their soccer balls, which has helped. If you can learn to perfect shield the balls, d-tilt or smash are a good punish mechanism. As far as challenging their recovery, unless they need to use the hoops to recover from a far horizontal distance I would recommend using caution. It is a very good MU to practice your tech skills though.

Overall, Greninja's mobility makes it tough for WFT to land a solid hit on him, letting Greninja live to outrageous % while they die rather easily to any of our smashes or FCWS. If the Greninja stays out of close quarters situations and takes Wii Fit somewhere where ledge camping is relatively inefficient, he shouldn't expect to drop a game. 60:40 Froggy, and I used to think it was worse for WFT.

 

[Macchiato]

I've played a few really good Wii Fits, this is my analysis.

's positives in the MU: Wii Fit's frame data is better than Greninja's, and their attacks will often beat ours in close quarters. Sun Salutation is a better projectile than WS, and at the end of the day we will be forced to approach. Wii Fit commands a lot more respect at the edge and off stage then most of the cast, as they have multiple ways to take your stock if you try to chase them off the stage. Their dair and the initial hit of the soccer ball meteor, and their bair is a potent stage spiking move. Even the hula hoops' hitbox can be very annoying to Greninja during gimp attempts, as getting behind it to bair them into the stage often leads to taking a small hit from the hoops and missing your chance. The soccer ball also allows WFT to camp the ledge much more safely than most characters in the game, and will punish your attempts to hit them during their ledge vulnerability.

's positives in the MU: When deep breathing is not applied, you're going to be living to 150% and beyond. WFT struggle to take stocks of any character that doesn't foolishly challenge them offstage or let them get deep breathing up. The move takes a ton of time to accomplish, so if you see them going for it rush in to challenge it (beware though as they can act out of it almost immediately). WFT's model and fall speed is exactly what Greninja dreams of: they are tall and floaty. This means it is very hard for WFT to get out of being juggled without being confusing with their movement. Greninja's mobility makes it very hard for WFT to land a solid hit on us, and our low profile means that when we get buried by jab 3 f-smash will not hit us (we are also able to crouch quite a few of WFT's moves, so d-tilt is a great move in this MU). Just due to mobility alone I think we win on the stage and in the air. Offstage, we almost have to let WFT have the ledge because of how annoying the soccer ball can be. I tend to stand back and throw FCWS between their soccer balls, which has helped. If you can learn to perfect shield the balls, d-tilt or smash are a good punish mechanism. As far as challenging their recovery, unless they need to use the hoops to recover from a far horizontal distance I would recommend using caution. It is a very good MU to practice your tech skills though.

Overall, Greninja's mobility makes it tough for WFT to land a solid hit on him, letting Greninja live to outrageous % while they die rather easily to any of our smashes or FCWS. If the Greninja stays out of close quarters situations and takes Wii Fit somewhere where ledge camping is relatively inefficient, he shouldn't expect to drop a game. 60:40 Froggy, and I used to think it was worse for WFT.

Wii Fit does not struggle to kill. Her ftilt kills him at 100-120%. Nair to uair kills him at 85%. Bair oos kills him at 80%. Her smashes kill him at like 70%. Nair to Usmash a true combo that kills at 65%.

 

[Ludiloco]

Maybe the players weren't used to the ninja MU, but I've never had any of those used on me minus f tilt.

 

[ephOE]

Nai to Usmash a true combo that kills at 65%.

This I have to see

Did the patch give anything to WFT? I know her hitboxes are sometimes deceptive (not in her favor) and it can be tough for her to hit characters lower to the ground. I've seen a WFT walk right up next to a sleeping Puff, D smash, and completely whiff.

Also I just realized we're practically neighbors

 

[FullMoon]

Wii Fit Trainer most definitely does not have trouble killing us. Sun Salutation by itself is something to fear, her F-Tilt is also a kill move that comes out very fast and she can combo N-Air into Up-Air for a kill. If all else fails, they can also kill with Up-Throw. Deep Breathing just makes her able to kill us sooner.

I wouldn't say we're quite forced to approach though, I believe uncharged shurikens don't clash with uncharged Sun Salutation and if Wii Fit tries to charge the shurikens are fast enough to be able to interrupt the charge. If anything the neutral game is tied between the two, though Greninja does have an advantage in his disjointed moves.

Edgeguarding Wii Fit Trainer is a very risky proposition since you risk getting dunked by the Header and if she's recovering low then the hoops can hit and stage spike us if we try going for them. On the other hand it's very difficult for Wii Fit to edgeguard us as well thanks to our versatile recovery.

Greninja's advantaged state is significantly better than WFT's thanks to mobility alone. Don't underestimate her though, N-Air does a lot of damage and combos into itself and also into Up-Tilt and can cause loads of damage to us

I believe this MU can be 55:45 at best for Greninja and only because we have a better advantageous and disadvantageous state than WFT, which she compensates for being able to kill us pretty quickly if we're not careful. However just how fast Greninja is allows him to have more control over the flow of the match.

 

[Macchiato]

Wii Fit Trainer most definitely does not have trouble killing us. Sun Salutation by itself is something to fear, her F-Tilt is also a kill move that comes out very fast and she can combo N-Air into Up-Air for a kill. If all else fails, they can also kill with Up-Throw. Deep Breathing just makes her able to kill us sooner.

I wouldn't say we're quite forced to approach though, I believe uncharged shurikens don't clash with uncharged Sun Salutation and if Wii Fit tries to charge the shurikens are fast enough to be able to interrupt the charge. If anything the neutral game is tied between the two, though Greninja does have an advantage in his disjointed moves.

Edgeguarding Wii Fit Trainer is a very risky proposition since you risk getting dunked by the Header and if she's recovering low then the hoops can hit and stage spike us if we try going for them. On the other hand it's very difficult for Wii Fit to edgeguard us as well thanks to our versatile recovery.

Greninja's advantaged state is significantly better than WFT's thanks to mobility alone. Don't underestimate her though, N-Air does a lot of damage and combos into itself and also into Up-Tilt and can cause loads of damage to us

I believe this MU can be 55:45 at best for Greninja and only because we have a better advantageous and disadvantageous state than WFT, which she compensates for being able to kill us pretty quickly if we're not careful. However just how fast Greninja is allows him to have more control over the flow of the match.

Yeah id say that this is perfect.

This I have to see

Did the patch give anything to WFT? I know her hitboxes are sometimes deceptive (not in her favor) and it can be tough for her to hit characters lower to the ground. I've seen a WFT walk right up next to a sleeping Puff, D smash, and completely whiff.

Also I just realized we're practically neighbors

no changes except for a useless glitch removed. Also do we have a smash scene around? I can't find one.

 

[KERO]

An idea I just recently had would be perhaps assign each MU with a preferred Shuriken custom. Shifting Shuriken is one of Greninja's most useful customs (if not the most useful), but regular Shuriken itself just has so much flexibility that it's hard to let go of. I do feel that some MUs have one definitively preferred Shuriken, though (example: In my opinion, there is literally no reason to use regular over Shifting in the Sheik MU). Generally, I feel if regular Shuriken fulfills its role just fine in the MU, it is the preferred option, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, I don't have much to say in the way of Gunner, Mario, or WFT, but I do have Mega Man experience, so I'll briefly post my opinion regarding preferred Shuriken on the first three and elaborate a bit more on Mega Man.

: I don't believe Gunner severely outcamps us by any stretch, and given that it can have a reflector, I feel that regular Shuriken is clearly the superior option (the possibility of Shifting Shuriken being reflected at us into a Smash attack is concerning).

: A fast reflector+a powerful Usmash, again, makes Shifting a worrying prospect. Marios also tend to prefer aerial approaches, so it isn't as hard to sneak a Usmash in. Thus, I think regular Shuriken is the better option in this MU.

: I know next to nothing about this character, but it doesn't seem to have anything that would limit regular Shuriken much. Maybe I'm wrong on this one.

: I personally feel this MU is very easily in our favor. Just to get it out of the way, do not use Shifting Shuriken here. Regular Shuriken is needed to help limit Metal Blade use. With regular Shuriken, we can actually somewhat outcamp Mega Man. It also gives us the chance to possibly bait him into Skull Barrier (If he's using it). If you can bait him into Skull Barrier, Greninja can easily get a free dash grab in. Outside of Shuriken, Greninja has quite a bit on Mega Man. He struggles to get kills more than a lot of characters, which allows our lead game to shine even more than usual. Additionally, we heavily outrange him in a lot of aspects (Fair cuts right through lemons). Our mobility also makes it really hard for him to punish us. Finally, we can catch Mega Man's landings fairly well with Fsmash, so it doesn't hurt to throw out a charged one every now and then when he's trying to land (otherwise, dash grab as usual).

However, Mega Man still has his strengths. Firstly, he is a heavier character, which means that we will have to struggle a bit more to obtain that stock lead. Additionally, despite his struggles to land a kill, he does have moves that do kill really early (namely Dsmash and Utilt), which can absolutely be detrimental to Greninja if Mega Man gets a read with one of them, so we can't be too roll happy. Mega Man is also great at punishing landings with customs on as he gets access to Danger Wrap (exploding bubbles) which also function as a kill tool. They may also try and use Danger Wrap if they predict an aerial approach, so be wary of this custom. Also, I would not recommend holding on to his Metal Blade as he can then approach fairly easily with lemons, which will easily cancel out uncharged Shurikens. If you want to run away from him, Metal Blade won't be too much of an issue anyway. Finally, also be aware that Mega Man can go for a ledge trump Bair, which will also kill early, so it's best for us not to hang on the ledge.

Overall, though, Greninja outranges Mega Man and certainly beats him in mobility (we easily outpace him). We can punish a good portion of his moveset with jab (and many with grabs), and our Uthrow to Uair combos him for much longer than most characters due to his weight. We also generally outspace him at mid-range. We just need to be very careful up close as he has a fast grab and of course Utilt. Finally, although I haven't played one in tourney since learning it, the upward item throw boost does give us another approach option if we can grab his Metal Blade. I'll call it at 60:40 Greninja favor (sorry if this wasn't super in-depth haha. I went over Mega Man previously and not much has really changed since then besides me believing the MU is easier for Greninja than I initially thought).

 

[David Galanos]

For mario , I would say 55:45 mario a while ago but I think it's 50:50, possibly a advantage to Greninja even 60:40.

I think it's mostly keeping out mario, and getting away from his fireball because a lot of mario's like to jump and fireball, and then approach after it either in the air or on the ground. I haven't really tried to bait that out but I can see that working, I've been trying to bait in general more. But one thing I do against Marios who like to nair out of combos, is to up throw and charge up smash at lower percents because it'll beat his nair. Or i'll down throw and shield the nair and f smash or dash attack into fair. I do the same thing with Luigis too, Luigis are more likely to do it. I try to hydro pump mario as much as I can to try and get a gimp whether it works or not.

I've been trying to see the uses of the Shadow sneak cancel in this matchup, and it is great to use if they use F.LU.D.D at the ledge because it'll help recover. With down throw -> up tilt, it usually just gets me regrabbed, unless it's like battlefield or something. I don't know if you time it right you can hit him, I doubt it, but I know in some cases I hit luigi and other characters, but with mario it generally doesn't work.

A big thing I think Greninja has an advantage in is that he out ranges mario with his attacks. Spaced Fair is a big help in this MU, but if they are throwing fireballs everywhere and jumping after them I try to not do it as much.

Most Marios are down smash and up smash happy, so I generally try to watch out for that. Spot dodge down smash is a heavily used tactic by a lot of people. Marios up smash to punish get up too, so if you have bad get up habits like me it won't be fun.

 

[Gunla]

Results:

• (50:50 ? I'll put this on the board but there's some contest to it)
• (55:45)
• (?:?, basically no discussion on Mii Gunner and I don't know this MU well enough to give any sort of say)
• (55:45, not really much discussion on changes/"keep it as is")

Week 2:

• (?:?, though I'm assuming it's likely 40:60)
  
• (?:?, expect a post from myself later this week on this MU, which I'll say right now is likely 60:40)
  
• (?:?, haven't played this enough to give any sort of impression)
  
• (70:30, our most polarizing MU so far)

 

[Coffee™]

Just a few thoughts....

I'd list Mario around 55:45 Greninja. He's slightly harder to deal with in comparison to Luigi due to his better mobility, cape and better fireballs but I don't really think it's even. Greninja outranges and has better mobility and Mario struggles hard to land kills here. There is also a lot of stuff Greninja can do to Mario's linear recovery.

As for Gunner it's 60:40 imo. I've actually played it quite a bit. Greninja out camps, outranges and out boxes gunner once you pack default Shuriken. Gunner isn't really a hard one unless you keep running into his projectiles. His Smoke Bomb is amazing though, definitely try to avoid getting hit by that thing. I can talk more in depth if needed.

As for for Fox I'll probably post at some point later today as to why that matchup isn't bad for Greninja.

And TL is definitely not a 70:30.....like how did that even come about?

 

[David Galanos]

Ok fox . In my opinion it is not all that bad, I don't know what the #:# would be I'll let everyone else decide.
He can reflect shuriken, so fully charged shuriken is almost unusable. Fox's neutral game is great so in the neutral it's hard and they are most likely looking out for shuriken. I find myself trying to space fair and getting dash attacked. Dash attack is pretty annoying, Greninja's landing options in my opinion aren't too great but it covers greninjas landing pretty well.
Greninja can jab out of Fox's jab reset, but after 65% he is locked unless they mess up the timing. Also, off stage I think Greninja wins, I try to punish on stage side b's coming from off stage as much as possible and stage spike up b if they go straight up.

Full Moon or Kero or someone will probably be able to give a lot better explanation of the MU, these are just some thoughts I had

I generally don't think Fox is too too bad, but definitely of his harder mu's, I've just recently been starting to see some troubles he has because most of the fox's I've versed I was a bit better than or they were at my level.

 

[Gunla]

And TL is definitely not a 70:30.....like how did that even come about?

I don't actually know myself...

We'll likely look into Gunner in a future week as a "revisit" seeing how basically we got two posts mentioning Gunner, including yours.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I saw the 70:30 toon link and I don't understand at all haha. Hoping someone will enlighten us

 

[ephOE]

Going to post and edit after work when I'm not stuck on my phone.

45:55
60:40
60:40
50:50

 

[Ludiloco]

Yeah I've played good Toon Links and it's definitely not THAT bad for TL. Not sure where that came from.

 

[KERO]

Alright, so I'm fairly familiar with none of these characters, just gonna put that out there, but I have a little to say regarding Fox.

So, Fox. Apparently he's the bogeyman or something from what I've heard, but I personally don't buy it. Playing Fox isn't too dissimilar from Greninja dittos in that it's very much about footsies. Yes, he can force an approach with lasers, but we can't forget that he has a bit of endlag once he stops. This means that, combined with our aerial mobility, if he uses lasers, we can essentially get into midrange for free since once we jump, we can easily close that distance while avoiding the lasers and then fastfall. When we land, if he's still shooting lasers for no reason, it's a free grab for us. Otherwise, we just got in mid-range for free. Now comes the fun part. I would not suggest trying to Fair space in this situation but instead use a ton of empty SHFFs (and occasional Nairs) and wait for his reaction. Most of this involves waiting for something, moving just slightly out of the way, and jabbing (sometimes Dtilting) or dash grabbing if he decides to try a laser. It's very much a punish game. The important part is knowing when we can pursue Fox or not when we've gained momentum as becoming overzealous can result in some punishment, especially at jab lock percents.

If we manage to knock Fox off the ledge, jump and follow his descent until he's below the ledge. If he tries to side-B, either predict it or react to it and Bair. Once he's below the ledge, Hydro Pump back to the ledge. If he still has his DJ, fall off and Bair when he uses it. If he uses Up-B instead after the DJ, move toward him so the last hit of Bair connects. Edgeguarding Fox is the least of our concerns.

When it comes to killing Fox, and this is the biggest issue imo, Uthrow is our most reliable option and essentially our only option if we don't want to risk getting Usmashed. You can be smart and try to time Fsmash against a side-B recovery, which can work, or predict a Nair or Dair and counter with your own Usmash, but most of the time, using our standard kill moves presents a huge risk that Greninja cannot afford in this MU. Unfortunately, Fox himself kills us really early, meaning it's harder than usual to survive long enough for Uthrow to kill early, and once again, this leads to a MU where Greninja's lead qualities are heavily emphasized.

The good news is that Fox himself struggles to get that kill if we get that first kill, which is wonderful. His own Usmash is definitely punishable, and our fast falling speed and high aerial mobility allows us to better avoid Uair. Additionally, and this is huge, Fox cannot combo us well at all with Utilt. In fact, a lot of his standard combos don't work on us and we can shield and punish back with jab.

Bad news is that when Fox gets momentum, it's really hard for us to get away with his speed. Despite our fast falling speed and aerial mobility, he can keep up with us just fine, often forcing us to the ledge, creating a difficult situation for us. Generally, standing up and trying to jump or run past him can work, but he can chase us just as easily, and if he reads our plan, can potentially result in the loss of a stock at higher percents. The best thing you can do is try to reset it to that mid-range battle by pivot grabbing to keep him away, but it's a difficult situation nonetheless. As far as edgeguarding goes, I'm not too familiar with Fox's abilities, but I don't think he has any effective ways to edgeguard us. His strengths come into play after we've reach the ledge since he limits so many of our options there.

Should be noted, that we should not try to challenge Fox's moves with our moves. Most of his moves come out way before ours, so learning to punish them is a necessity.

Lastly, don't use Shifting Shuriken. Shuriken is general isn't really great in the MU (can be used to tack on damage at midrange, but you generally have better things you could be doing), and while the idea of getting an early kill seems attractive, Fox can reflect it back and potentially get an early kill with Usmash, which would be terrible for us.

Overall, I'd say the MU is 50:50, possibly 55:45 our favor. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but of the Foxes I've played, it really comes down to who gets the lead, and I feel that Greninja is better able to handle Fox than Fox Greninja as long as Greninja plays a very reactionary game and doesn't overcommit, but at the same time, once Fox does get momentum, it's really hard for Greninja to shake him off (whereas Greninja has a harder time taking advantage momentum gained against Fox).


As for the other MUs... I'm not very familiar with them, so I'll just into shuriken recommendations.

Doctor Mario: Regular Shuri cause fast reflector+Usmash.
Toon Link: Regular in order to have some sort of control over his projectiles. Also, it's unlikely you could get a follow-up off of it when an arrow or Boomerange is still flying at you.
Link: Regular for the same reason as TL.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm pretty sure the 70:30 against Toon Link came from an actual Toon Link main lol.

As for my opinions on the matter...

65:35

Link is tall, slow and combo meat. Once we get through his projectiles there's not much he can do to us especially with his jab 1 nerf. He can't shieldgrab N-Air because lol tether grab while meanwhile we have an amazing dash grab to help us ge through him. He really doesn't have much going for him here other than he can kills us pretty well once he does get the hits in.

55:45

Toon Link is harder than Link just because he's faster and smaller making him harder to hit. He has some trouble getting kills other than B-Throw and bomb setups, so as long as you can avoid being hit by his bombs and staying away from the ledge when you're at a high %, you can usually survive a long time. From what I've played Toon Link likes to jump around a lot so that makes him prime Up-Smash target for us and we can kill him very quickly.

He also a lot more prone to being edgeguarded than we are. Overall Toon Link definitely has the advantage in neutral, but if the Greninja stays patient we can get through his wall of projectiles and start laying down the pain, it's just a lot harder than with Link due to how his boomerang is better and he has faster moves overall. Toon Link is essentially Link with less kill power and a better neutral.

He's also extremely annoying to face in lag, but outside of it he's really not that bad.

60:40

It's Mario, but slower and with a worse projectile. We can go under his pills pretty easily and his recovery is sad even with the tornado since the endlag on it makes him prone to being hit as it ends by our B-Air. Overall, we still outrange and we're severely faster too.



I need more experience with him.

 

[Ludiloco]

Ok. Time for some analysis.



Link's positives: Link does an ok job at walling Greninja out with projectiles. He is probably the least effective at it of the projectile-heavy characters save Mega Man, but he does ok. His moves are very powerful and very few of them connected to his hurtbox, so he can kill Greninja relatively early off the top or sides. Greninja's fast fall speed means Link can rack up nice damage with up tilt and other combo moves as well.

Greninja's positives: Link has no way to come down from being launched by Ninja. Committing to down air may work once or twice but will get him KOed by an up smash. Bombs help, but are easily blocked. His weight and size also helps us combo him, and his recovery is easy to predict and gimp minus the relatively safe hookshot tether. His mobility is slow and clunky, his projectiles can be worked around, and he can be easily gimped and combo'ed.

60:40 Greninja.




TL's positives: TL's speed and kill power are actually pretty good, and his projectiles help him set up into combos. Because of this he has a much easier time against Greninja's mobility, and can rack up damage quickly if the ninja player is not careful. His projectiles are far more potent than Link's, his tether recovery is also pretty safe, and he has a reliable kill throw. He wins in neutral and forces our approach.

Greninja's positives: TL is much lighter than regular Link, but does have safer options for landing due to improved mobility. His up special is also incredibly easy to gimp, as he covers solely vertical distance with it. Greninja can KO him much sooner than regular Link, so getting pelted with projectiles doesn't matter nearly as much. We possess the superior mobility and win in neutral, and have ways of getting around his projectile traps. Otherwise, it's pretty even.

50:50 or 55:45 Greninja



Doc's positives: Power and frame data. Doc's pills can be annoying and unpredictable, and can disrupt Greninja's recovery. The cape also helps Doc a lot in this MU, making fully charged WS and recovering high really bad ideas. Doc also has plenty of kill moves on us that are relatively hard to punish if they connect or hit shield, including all his smashes, his fair, his bair, and his up special. Doc also has very quick frame data in the air, meaning he can combo us pretty hard when he gets a grab. Neutral is kind of a wash depending on how effective the Doc player is at using pills and jabs to keep us out, and the cape essentially forces our approach. Doc's dair also is a nice tool for coming down on Greninja, and is beaten only by up smash.

Greninja's positives: Doc has probably the easiest recovery to gimp minus Little Mac. With customs on it's a whole nother ballgame, but as of now if you get him far enough off stage you don't even have to challenge his return. Doc isn't the easiest character to juggle, and doesn't die too early naturally but he's definitely not the hardest either. If we bob and weave out of Doc's midrange area he can't really do anything to challenge our mobility, but you have to be careful about staying too airborne as Doc's moves straight up beat ours in the air (bair maybe the only exception). If he grabs you, just focus on landing safely instead of challenging his aerials with our own. Neutral is a wash, air game belongs to Doc, advantage and offstage belong to us.

55:45 Greninja




Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fox's positives: Fox pretty much just wins. His moves are quicker than ours, he can keep up with us on foot, he can punish us hard for the smallest mistakes, and his reflector makes FCWS useless. He's also very hard to gimp if he recovers cleverly. His lasers force our approach, his aerials beat ours clean, and he can kill us pretty early with up smash. Not even spacing fairs works safely, he is able to punish them. We are also very susceptible to jab lock at higher %. Fox with a lead is absolutely terrifying and hard to come back on, as he just has the potential to rack damage on us. Fox also has safe options to come down on us, including his reflector to slow his fall speed and his illusion to get away.

Greninja's positives: Well, Fox can't effectively gimp anyone really. His best options are ledge trump d-smash or stage spiking with bair/dair, and those are easy to avoid with smart recovery. Fox's up special has considerable startup as well, meaning if he places it unsafely it will cost him his stock. Fox's main kill move is also very predictable and easy to shield punish. Fox can be poked with uncharged WS, but given his reflector and fast speed I wouldn't recommend it. Fox is relatively light and as such dies pretty early, and like most characters can't really challenge up smash. We can also jab through Fox's jab, which can get us out of a tight situation. Stay away from the repeating jab and play a very safe punish game and you have a shot against Fox. At high %, block the up smash at all costs, even if they read it and get a grab you should be safe. I hate this MU though, I usually go Yoshi or Luigi.

40:60 Fox

 

[ephOE]

Going to post and edit after work when I'm not stuck on my phone.

45:55
60:40
60:40
50:50

Alright here goes.


I'll start with Link to get him out of the way, I think most of what needs to be said has been said. First, Link has a few strengths going for him. His Ftilt and jab have good reach and come out at decent speed when spaced correctly, so even after negotiating the projectiles Greninja can't just charge in. Unlike Megaman, Link doesn't have anything like lemons so he will have to commit to an option once we are close. Link's Boomerang travels faster than his Toon counterpart's, so it can catch you in the middle of tossing WS. Uncharged WS will also lose to thrown bombs. Link's Zair is a somewhat decent tool against Greninja's spaced aerial approaches (longer reach than our Fair).

Link is fairly heavy, doesn't have a great jump, and has predictable recovery. While he forces Greninja to approach, he can't really approach us very well with how mobile Greninja is (just don't fall for Bomb > Dash Attack by rolling backwards). Greninja's fall speed can get him out of both Link's F smash and Up Smash (Greninja is essentially immune to Link's Up Smash unless he falls into it). In addition to his projectiles, Link has several attacks which are easier to Substitute than most. If you're a fan of using Hydro Pump on stage, it can splash bombs away.

The key here is patience, don't commit until you're ready. Link almost demands you approach, and Link players are pretty good at getting in other player's heads, but just keep cool. 60:40, Greninja's favor.


This one we recently discussed so I'll just hit it real quick. Doc is slower than Mario and that increases our mobility advantage. He has some of the combo potential of Mario, if not equivalent. However, he still has the critical lack of range that Greninja capitalizes on. Pills are easier to move under but trickier to cancel (say, with jabs or WS) and Substitute. Customs helps Doc slightly, but really only with his Down B. Doc's recovery is abysmal, he is much easier to edgeguard than Mario. Another 60:40, Greninja's favor.


This little guy. There aren't a whole lot of players out there who can get the most of out him. I spent some time checking out the TL board after I thought I might make him my main, though, and I was really surprised at what he's got in his bag of tricks. There's that, and the fact that this tiny elf is a combo monster.

Obviously he is lighter than Link, but much faster - that's where a lot of the difference lies. While he's strong on FD, his movement options on stages with platforms are exceptional. Bomb confirms are extremely dangerous because they can chain into various KO options like Fair and Uair. Toon Link's Fair is very similar to ours - does slightly less damage and isn't as useful for spacing in neutral, while having similar follow-up potential and being a more useful KO option. His Zair doesn't reach as far but still autocancels and has enough reach to beat Greninja's Fair. One of the meanest back throws in the game. Still has extremely predictable (and exploitable) recovery and his bombs don't help with it as much, but his floatiness and tether at least give him the potential to survive for quite a while (he weighs just slightly less than Greninja). His projectiles are slower than Link's, allowing Greninja to navigate them easier. Uncharged WS still lose out to bombs. Toon bombs also have a longer fuse, meaning they can be thrown and regrabbed several times, and good Toon Link players WILL know how to juggle bombs like a circus event.

Toon Link has 3 major weaknesses IMO. I already mentioned his exploitable recovery. Another is how often he is required to pull bombs. They don't come out awfully fast - if there's an opening in the projectile wall, TL is very vulnerable while pulling bombs (and also while pulling his boomerang, but the mobility options of b reversals, wavebounces, etc. lets him compensate). Toon Link's absolute worst weakness is his air mobility. It's terrible. Really terrible. Even with bombs to drop, landing and escaping juggles is extremely difficult for the little guy. This Sheik-filled meta is a nightmare.

I'd definitely put Toon Link in the top 3 projectile-based zoning characters in the game. I agree with @Zan- , 50:50 matchup.


This MU is a f***ing pain, to say the least. It's doable, but can be awful. Fox has very quick moves, a laser that forces us to approach, a nasty jab lock, a sustaining reflector, and some other tricks.

Generally I respect Fox's FF Nair, though if you know it's coming you can disrespect it with Hydro Pump, which can confuse the other player, stall Fox's fall, and slide you to a safe distance but not too far to follow up - all at once. Nair is just a move you don't want Fox to land on you with, it sets up a lot for hiim, including Utilt strings. You can cancel the hitstun at low % with Shadow Sneak but that's usually a gamble as to whether the Fox can react fast enough, although if you're quick and you get the reverse kick, you can actually punish them for trying to string you.

A great opener for this MU is Up Throw, especially if they open with lasers because it takes Fox forever to holster the blaster. If Fox jumps, you can try to make something by catching his landing and also get a feel for his reactions out of Up Throw. If Fox air dodges, of course you get the Utilt > Up Smash like you get on any heavy or fastfalling character.

Speaking of Up Smash, Fox is light. So light. If you spend the whole match respecting his Nair only to slide under him and Up Smash as he tries to fall into you, that can net you crucial KOs (Up Smash KOs Fox at ~90% or even less). Utilt > Uiar is a fantastic KO set up, especially on stages with platforms, due to the hitstun on Utilt being significantly longer than Up Throw. That being said, I believe there is a certain % window where Up Throw > Uair is a true KOing combo, but it requires Greninja to have rage for the increased knockback + hitstun. I have not been able to test this offline yet so I'm not positive. Either way, while Fox is small he is a light fast faller and is can be juggled to an extent.

Jab is decent for keeping Fox out, just don't use the multihit unless you catch him in the air. For the most part, neither Fox nor Greninja can safely multi-jab each other (except at a ledge) without being punished by the other's F smash. If Fox messes up his jab lock, get ready.

I challenge Fox's recovery whenever I can. His Up B is extremely predictable. His Side B is about reading whether he goes high, low onto the stage, to the ledge, or low and then Up B's to the ledge. Bair works wonders on his Up B recovery. If he doesn't go to the ledge, well timed Up or Down Smashes are pretty effective. The move has very low lag on landing, but takes a bit of time to stall then fall if it ends in the air. Hydro Pump from onstage (just launching the bubble) right into his Side B is also a great option.

Some random notes, beware of regrabbing the ledge because Fox's Down Smash is one of the best moves in the game for punishing this. Don't use FC WS unless you're prepared to deal with it being reflected. Fox can stall his descent slightly with his reflector. Lasers can be Substituted fairly easily. Fox will have to get thirsty for KOs at some point and if you can avoid Up Smash (not too bad) and jab locks (slightly harder to avoid) then you can survive fairly well. Shadow Sneak has decent use to punish aerial approaches in this MU. I think Battlefield or other platform stages are decent stages for this MU. Final Destination scares me because Fox can quickly get from point A to Up Smashing at point B, but it also gives us more room to operate. Fox's dash attack is a pain in the butt.

Uair spikes are just lethal to Fox and easy to achieve because he falls so fast. I think most of my KOs on Fox are probably from Down Smash at this point. Which also reminds me that Fox does not like to be forced to recover low by Down Smash's trajectory. Uair can also be used to set up the aforementioned Utilt > Uair KO.

I'll add more as it comes to me, but one last note: dash grab at the ledge > footstool is a real thing. When you land a dash grab too close to the ledge and both you and the other player go falling off, if you footstool Fox at this point it puts him in a terrible position. He's basically forced to Up B if he even reacts in time, which at least gives you an opportunity for a stage spike.

After playing this MU more than I'd like I'll put it at an optimistic 45:55, Fox's favor. It sucks but it's totally doable, and if you made a case for it being more even I would probably agree for the most part.

@ Gunla I will get my thoughts together on the Mii Gunner because I do have some experience with that MU. Also I don't know if you have all the weeks planned out or not, but I'd like to request Captain Falcon as one of the MUs for discussion next week. It's really killing me.

 

[Codaption]

This little guy. There aren't a whole lot of players out there who can get the most of out him. I spent some time checking out the TL board after I thought I might make him my main, though, and I was really surprised at what he's got in his bag of tricks. There's that, and the fact that this tiny elf is a combo monster.

Obviously he is lighter than Link, but much faster - that's where a lot of the difference lies. While he's strong on FD, his movement options on stages with platforms are exceptional. Bomb confirms are extremely dangerous because they can chain into various KO options like Fair and Uair. Toon Link's Fair is very similar to ours - does slightly less damage and isn't as useful for spacing in neutral, while having similar follow-up potential and being a more useful KO option. His Zair doesn't reach as far but still autocancels and has enough reach to beat Greninja's Fair. One of the meanest back throws in the game. Still has extremely predictable (and exploitable) recovery and his bombs don't help with it as much, but his floatiness and tether at least give him the potential to survive for quite a while (he weighs just slightly less than Greninja). His projectiles are slower than Link's, allowing Greninja to navigate them easier. Uncharged WS still lose out to bombs. Toon bombs also have a longer fuse, meaning they can be thrown and regrabbed several times, and good Toon Link players WILL know how to juggle bombs like a circus event.

Toon Link has 3 major weaknesses IMO. I already mentioned his exploitable recovery. Another is how often he is required to pull bombs. They don't come out awfully fast - if there's an opening in the projectile wall, TL is very vulnerable while pulling bombs (and also while pulling his boomerang, but the mobility options of b reversals, wavebounces, etc. lets him compensate). Toon Link's absolute worst weakness is his air mobility. It's terrible. Really terrible. Even with bombs to drop, landing and escaping juggles is extremely difficult for the little guy. This Sheik-filled meta is a nightmare.

I'd definitely put Toon Link in the top 3 projectile-based zoning characters in the game. I agree with @Zan- , 50:50 matchup.

Wait, really? Glad I picked him up a while back, then.

I should try out that bomb juggling thing you mentioned...

 

[LumpyGravy]

Has the Falcon matchup been discussed yet? I could really use some help with this matchup.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm honestly surprised with how much you guys have problems with Falcon when it's not a bad MU at all.

Hell, one Falcon player I played with a couple of times who has a lot of experience fighting Greninja even thinks it's 65:35 in our favor.

I don't agree with him of course but it still comes out as rather funny to me.

 

[David Galanos]

In my opinion, Greninja solidly beats falcon, but falcon can still win, kinda hard to explain. Basically I guess what I'm saying is if falcon isn't zoned out in the neutral, and he is getting those grabs it's basically even lol, or even in falcons favor haha. So what I'm saying is Greninja definitely wins the mu, but you have to take advantage of what makes the matchup good for us, which is using shuriken a bit more and comboing him because of his weight. After I beat a falcon sometimes they'll tell me shuriken gives them a hard time, so, I'm gonna do that more lol, and I'm not the type of guy who uses shuriken a ton, at least zoning with it, but I will in this mu because I don't want to get grabbed and take that crazy percent out of his follow ups

 

[ephOE]

Most of the Falcon's I play with are much, much better than me, so the MU probably isn't as bad as I want to believe it is. I'll withold my thoughts on the MU until we get to discussing it.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I probably shouldn't have said as much but I feel I know the matchup very well and I have versed a lot of Falcons and good ones too like Fatality who is in my opinion the best falcon main in the world as of now.

I don't know much about Doc, Link, or TL. I have played TL and Link, but I can't provide useful info that isn't already known. I don't know who wins or anything I just know the projectiles are part of the fight and whether or not the Greninja can evade them and get in determines how the match will go. Link is kinda easier to combo and verse compared to TL too, in my opinion

 

[bc1910]

I don't think we lose to Falcon but it's one of those "annoying/stupid/cancer/whyyyy" MUs. He destroys us in terms of frame data, he can keep up with our mobility and he can combo/juggle us almost as hard as we can do to him (it would be harder, I think, but Falcon's disadvantage sucks and we have Hydro Pump). So it's unlikely that Greninja will be able to beat a good Falcon "honestly" because he kind of gets bodied on stage.

What it comes down to for me is the fact that Greninja can turn the tables because he has the ability to body Falcon's recovery for free, at pretty much any percent. This is a really polarizing advantage that makes any mistake by the Falcon player ultimately more costly than the mistakes we make. I think this MU probably evens out, a good Falcon will make it very tough to get him offstage but once he's there he's in big trouble.

@ David Galanos I'm actually surprised to hear what you said Falcon mains say about shuriken. I've never found shuriken particularly useful in this MU, standing there spamming it is NOT going to work and even when shurikens are used properly (combine them with Greninja's mobility) I think they're just too slow to keep Falcon out effectively.

 

[Ludiloco]

Bad Falcon is ezpz, if you can get them to burn their second jump or bait them into raptor boost off stage they are 100% dead to hydro pump. I've gimped so many Falcons it should be a hate crime.

Good Falcon still doesn't really have any approaches so you can easily piss him off into running straight at you with shurikens. You can easily shield or jab at his approaches, I think our jab clanks with his dash attack and beats his dash grab, don't quote me on the dash attack. Smart Falcons will approach with up air because their jab can beat out our standing grab. Just keep moving and dance around his attacks, then punish.

I think the MU is 55:45 us

I'm actually surprised to hear what you said Falcon mains say about shuriken. I've never found shuriken particularly useful in this MU, standing there spamming it is NOT going to work and even when shurikens are used properly (combine them with Greninja's mobility) I think they're just too slow to keep Falcon out effectively.

They're not meant to keep him out, they're meant to force his hand while he's trying to approach. If he jumps, up air is coming. If he power shields the dash grab or dash attack is coming.

If he's a bad Falcon, the dash attack is coming lol