Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[FullMoon]

From my experience when we play neutral against Falcon we pretty much wait until he leaves himself vulnerable and then proceed to combo him as long as we can. Shurikens are great at annoying people and making them try to rush you down and they become more likely to make a mistake.

Also if you can predict Falcon coming to Dash Grab you, I usually mash either jab or D-tilt since they do a nice job at stopping Falcon in his tracks usually even if it results in him grabbing you and immediatelly releasing because of the hit.

Greninja's neutral against Falcon is not bad at all, it just needs to be played carefully. Both characters have to respect each other's dash grabs and combos, but while Falcon has better frame data, Greninja has a fast projectile to annoy him. I think their neutrals are pretty evenly matched overall.

Both Greninja and Falcon have really scary advantaged states as well.

Greninja has a good disadvantaged state unlike Falcon

Greninja's edgeguarding completely ruins Falcon's recovery.

All in all I think we have the advantage here, it's really easy for both characters to turn the tables here because of their great advantaged state and while Greninja does have the means to easily edgeguard, Falcon does kill us a lot earlier than we kill him.

 

[bc1910]

They're not meant to keep him out, they're meant to force his hand while he's trying to approach. If he jumps, up air is coming. If he power shields the dash grab or dash attack is coming.

If he's a bad Falcon, the dash attack is coming lol

They are absolutely meant to keep him out. They just can't keep him out.

I'm arguing semantics though. They're useful for the reasons you described.

 

[ephOE]

They are absolutely meant to keep him out. They just can't keep him out.

I'm arguing semantics though. They're useful for the reasons you described.

I miss pre-nerf WS.

 

[sonus]

I have a completely different outlook then this forum it seems.I am not sure what Greninja everyone else is playing, but I do not feel like he has any match up better than 50:50, or 55:45. He is so predictable and his punishes are weak. He can usually only punish with a dash grab,jab, or dash attack. As soon as he faces anyone high tier +, the match ups are largely not in his favor. Hence Mario, fox, sheik.

All projectile based characters beat him, yet for some reason you guys are giving him advantage on pretty much every one. Megaman and both links give him a terrible time. You need to be nearly perfect at power shielding to beat a good projectile character as Greninja.

Link has tilts that are faster than anything Greninja can do (and they kill) when he tries to punish, as well as priority on most moves. You can't outcamp link if the link knows what he is doing with projectiles. You are forced to approach and it is never a safe option as Greninja.

Even if you manage to force them to approach you, your options for punishing the approach are not strong. Retreating fair is nice but easy to predict and shield.

Edit:Basically, if the opponent is playing safe and not hyper aggressive, Greninja struggles hard.

 

[ephOE]

I have a completely different outlook then this forum it seems.I am not sure what Greninja everyone else is playing, but I do not feel like he has any match up better than 50:50, or 55:45. He is so predictable and his punishes are weak. He can usually only punish with a dash grab,jab, or dash attack. As soon as he faces anyone high tier +, the match ups are largely not in his favor. Hence Mario, fox, sheik.

All projectile based characters beat him, yet for some reason you guys are giving him advantage on pretty much every one. Megaman and both links give him a terrible time. You need to be nearly perfect at power shielding to beat a good projectile character as Greninja.

Link has tilts that are faster than anything Greninja can do (and they kill) when he tries to punish, as well as priority on most moves. You can't outcamp link if the link knows what he is doing with projectiles. You are forced to approach and it is never a safe option as Greninja.

Even if you manage to force them to approach you, your options for punishing the approach are not strong. Retreating fair is nice but easy to predict and shield.

Edit:Basically, if the opponent is playing safe and not hyper aggressive, Greninja struggles hard.

I agree that Greninja lacks polarizing MUs in his favor, and I do find it really hard to be optimistic regarding the character. I'm always going to blame myself before blaming the character though (except when I lose a match in tournament because Greninja splats the edge, then I'm just going to be salty even if I did meet the ledge at a head on angle without thinking first).

A lot of Greninja comes down to the player. You have to be extremely patient, navigate and negotiate a lot of various traps and projectiles, pick your moments and commit to them - hard. A lot of players find good Greninjas frustrating to play against because... well because sometimes he has to be. Yes, I will crawl back and forth and Hydro Pump you away on stage until you leave yourself open if that's what it takes. Fair spacing is tricky because even with the range, not only does your spacing but your timing has to be spot on as well in order to win out against other aerials.

Some MUs just suck - they aren't always easy or fun, but they are doable. When the other player is playing super defensive, Greninja does have a harder time doing what he normally does. It's still pretty hard to camp out Greninja, though.

Sometimes it literally comes down to don't get grabbed. Which feels unfair when Greninja doesn't get as much out of grabs as some other characters, at least without not more effort from the player.

Greninja has a lot of wacky mixups that are hard to take advantage of, but they are effective. He's also among the most mobile characters in the game, and he's got good KO setups, even if many are very specific and require precision to begin and execute. And a lot of untapped potential when it comes to footstools. I'm not going to say Greninja has a high skill ceiling or anything like that (but that's exactly what I'm saying, it's f**king true).

Greninja sucks when you add online play into the equation, though. He just can't handle even a small bit of input lag.

 

[sonus]

I agree that Greninja lacks polarizing MUs in his favor, and I do find it really hard to be optimistic regarding the character. I'm always going to blame myself before blaming the character though (except when I lose a match in tournament because Greninja splats the edge, then I'm just going to be salty even if I did meet the ledge at a head on angle without thinking first).

A lot of Greninja comes down to the player. You have to be extremely patient, navigate and negotiate a lot of various traps and projectiles, pick your moments and commit to them - hard. A lot of players find good Greninjas frustrating to play against because... well because sometimes he has to be. Yes, I will crawl back and forth and Hydro Pump you away on stage until you leave yourself open if that's what it takes. Fair spacing is tricky because even with the range, not only does your spacing but your timing has to be spot on as well in order to win out against other aerials.

Some MUs just suck - they aren't always easy or fun, but they are doable. When the other player is playing super defensive, Greninja does have a harder time doing what he normally does. It's still pretty hard to camp out Greninja, though.

Sometimes it literally comes down to don't get grabbed. Which feels unfair when Greninja doesn't get as much out of grabs as some other characters, at least without not more effort from the player.

Greninja has a lot of wacky mixups that are hard to take advantage of, but they are effective. He's also among the most mobile characters in the game, and he's got good KO setups, even if many are very specific and require precision to begin and execute. And a lot of untapped potential when it comes to footstools. I'm not going to say Greninja has a high skill ceiling or anything like that (but that's exactly what I'm saying, it's f**king true).

Greninja sucks when you add online play into the equation, though. He just can't handle even a small bit of input lag.

This is why I haven't dropped Greninja. Every time I want to drop him, I think that there must be more to master about him and its not that he is bad. Its looking like the best way to play him is hit and run or wait/bait, which is just like sonic. People are going to hate watching/facing Greninja.

 

[Codaption]

This is why I haven't dropped Greninja. Every time I want to drop him, I think that there must be more to master about him and its not that he is bad. Its looking like the best way to play him is hit and run or wait/bait, which is just like sonic. People are going to hate watching/facing Greninja.

If you feel like dropping a character, sometimes it's best to actually do so and switch so somebody you feel much more confident with...and THEN go back to that character. I was frustrated a while back with how poorly I did with Jigglypuff, so I tried out Yoshi for a time. Played around with him for a bit, learned all of the things he could do. Eventually I came back to Jigglypuff, and although it took a bit to get back into her I ended up actually playing her better than I did before. It sounds weird, but it works.

(And no, I haven't completely dropped yoshi. He's not as good as people say he is, but jeez he's fun.)

 

[ephOE]

This is why I haven't dropped Greninja. Every time I want to drop him, I think that there must be more to master about him and its not that he is bad. Its looking like the best way to play him is hit and run or wait/bait, which is just like sonic. People are going to hate watching/facing Greninja.

People will hate it until we're consistently landing stuff like jab 2 > footstool > Dair > Uair > Utilt > Uair > Down Smash. We're a wonderful blend of incredibly obnoxious and very stylish.

"Greninja is cool and cute." - aMSa, 2015

 

[FullMoon]

If you think Greninja loses to all projectile users then you must really not know how to get around projectiles.

His punishes are weak? Most of his moves combo into something else and he can rack up a lot of damage out of a single mistake made by his opponent.

I play with a good Megaman player a lot and I still manage to win most of our fights, we even fought in an online tournament once and I still won the Bo5 3-1. Megaman does not give Greninja a hard time if you actually know how to fight him properly.

Greninja does not have bad MUs against most of the high tiers, the only ones that are really problematic for him are Sheik, Sonic and Fox. He doesn't have many favorable MUs against high tiers either (just Luigi and maybe Pikachu and Falcon), but he doesn't do badly against them at all.

I don't want to say just "git gud", but I think you just don't know how to really handle Greninja yet, I hardly consider myself a pro or something of the like, but Greninja is a very tricky character to learn because, as Vex said in response to me earlier today, Greninja is a very honest character in that he doesn't have any jank to rely on unlike other characters, so to earn wins with him you are relying basically on your knowledge and skill and you can't count on a single move to help you around, you really need to learn how to use all of his kit.

We don't have something like Sheik's F-Air, Sonic's Spin Dash or Fox's jab combo to get us easy kills or rack up damage easy, but we do have a lot of excellent tools at our disposal such as our ridiculous number of kill setups, one of the best mobilities in the game and a pretty good damage output. It's just that it takes more work and precision to get things right.

Does that make Greninja bad? Nope. Just harder to use, a Greninja player that really knows the character from the inside out and knows when to do what is a really dangerous opponent.

One thing I do want to cover though is that maybe we should change the way we the MU discussions. For the most part we just talk about MU ratios and who wins the MU, but I think it would be more productive for us to discuss mainly just how should Greninja deal with that opponent and his kit.

I suggest we try to ditch MU ratios and just focus on talking about what we should do to win in depth because I think that's going to be more productive for us in the long run and also more helpful for players looking for advice here.

"Greninja is cool and cute." - aMSa, 2015

aMSa actually said that?

Respect +1

 

[David Galanos]

I was typing something but FullMoon pretty much said it better. So yeah I agree with what he said. Also, Greninja does not have to play a hit and run/waiting style, in my opinion. If you want to play like then I suggest trying sonic. He definitely can, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying there is no way you really HAVE to play the character. I tend to be impatient and approach more. Of course I may get shield grabbed or something, but if I do I'm going to switch things up with a grab, or empty hop grab (tomahawk). I am always making sure I am not being predictable in approaching or in anything really. I do not play the way I play without realizing what it takes to do so effectively. I love taking advantage of Greninja's great mobility and movement too.

I have trained myself to be more patient after getting the stock lead or at high percents, and zone more in situations, but what Im saying is I play Greninja how I like to play him and I've done just fine. I may have to adapt to certain types of players more, such as highly defensive players, but I will still try to put on pressure and do what I like to do and I do just fine. I feel that the reason I am not out there winning tournaments like ZeRo or something is because I am not good enough, not because I main greninja, or because I am not playing him the best way. Sorry kinda rambled and may not have made much sense but that's just what I feel, I think you can play greninja however you want, playing Sonic's type of style as him isn't bad at all though. Play the character in the way that suits your play style, I think you can play him in many different ways.

Also we kinda got off topic on the match ups haha, but there seems to not be too much more to talk about for this week anyway.

I agree that we should do more than just say the numbers and why the mu is good or bad too. Talking about what you should do or not do to ensure the most success in the mu is very helpful.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I agree that Greninja lacks polarizing MUs in his favor, and I do find it really hard to be optimistic regarding the character. I'm always going to blame myself before blaming the character though (except when I lose a match in tournament because Greninja splats the edge, then I'm just going to be salty even if I did meet the ledge at a head on angle without thinking first).

A lot of Greninja comes down to the player. You have to be extremely patient, navigate and negotiate a lot of various traps and projectiles, pick your moments and commit to them - hard. A lot of players find good Greninjas frustrating to play against because... well because sometimes he has to be. Yes, I will crawl back and forth and Hydro Pump you away on stage until you leave yourself open if that's what it takes. Fair spacing is tricky because even with the range, not only does your spacing but your timing has to be spot on as well in order to win out against other aerials.

Some MUs just suck - they aren't always easy or fun, but they are doable. When the other player is playing super defensive, Greninja does have a harder time doing what he normally does. It's still pretty hard to camp out Greninja, though.

Sometimes it literally comes down to don't get grabbed. Which feels unfair when Greninja doesn't get as much out of grabs as some other characters, at least without not more effort from the player.

Greninja has a lot of wacky mixups that are hard to take advantage of, but they are effective. He's also among the most mobile characters in the game, and he's got good KO setups, even if many are very specific and require precision to begin and execute. And a lot of untapped potential when it comes to footstools. I'm not going to say Greninja has a high skill ceiling or anything like that (but that's exactly what I'm saying, it's f**king true).

Greninja sucks when you add online play into the equation, though. He just can't handle even a small bit of input lag.

If you think Greninja loses to all projectile users then you must really not know how to get around projectiles.

His punishes are weak? Most of his moves combo into something else and he can rack up a lot of damage out of a single mistake made by his opponent.

I play with a good Megaman player a lot and I still manage to win most of our fights, we even fought in an online tournament once and I still won the Bo5 3-1. Megaman does not give Greninja a hard time if you actually know how to fight him properly.

Greninja does not have bad MUs against most of the high tiers, the only ones that are really problematic for him are Sheik, Sonic and Fox. He doesn't have many favorable MUs against high tiers either (just Luigi and maybe Pikachu and Falcon), but he doesn't do badly against them at all.

I don't want to say just "git gud", but I think you just don't know how to really handle Greninja yet, I hardly consider myself a pro or something of the like, but Greninja is a very tricky character to learn because, as Vex said in response to me earlier today, Greninja is a very honest character in that he doesn't have any jank to rely on unlike other characters, so to earn wins with him you are relying basically on your knowledge and skill and you can't count on a single move to help you around, you really need to learn how to use all of his kit.

We don't have something like Sheik's F-Air, Sonic's Spin Dash or Fox's jab combo to get us easy kills or rack up damage easy, but we do have a lot of excellent tools at our disposal such as our ridiculous number of kill setups, one of the best mobilities in the game and a pretty good damage output. It's just that it takes more work and precision to get things right.

Does that make Greninja bad? Nope. Just harder to use, a Greninja player that really knows the character from the inside out and knows when to do what is a really dangerous opponent.

One thing I do want to cover though is that maybe we should change the way we the MU discussions. For the most part we just talk about MU ratios and who wins the MU, but I think it would be more productive for us to discuss mainly just how should Greninja deal with that opponent and his kit.

I suggest we try to ditch MU ratios and just focus on talking about what we should do to win in depth because I think that's going to be more productive for us in the long run and also more helpful for players looking for advice here.



aMSa actually said that?

Respect +1

Sounds like Greninja's kind of like Shulk in some similar aspects then. He may have Monado Artes to help make him more versatile, but it takes time to learn how to use them most effectively and space out your opponent correctly or else you get punished, he doesn't have easy bake combos either. He does well against the tops minus Sheik, Sonic and Fox as well ironically.

Also quick question in general, if I wanted to start using Greninja as a secondary, where would be a good place for me to start with learning how to use some of his tools in good ways or what not?

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has some of the hardest punishes in the game. His ability to punish is not one of his weaknesses.

His weaknesses are crappy frame data and having trouble getting kills without falling back on Uthrow. Both of those can be worked around. I'm not going to throw ratios around but a character who's offstage game is as strong as Greninja's could never have no advantageous MUs. Several characters flat out shouldn't recover against him, and that's huge.

 

[ephOE]

Greninja is a very honest character in that he doesn't have any jank to rely on unlike other characters, so to earn wins with him you are relying basically on your knowledge and skill and you can't count on a single move to help you around, you really need to learn how to use all of his kit.

This. So many players complain about Greninja's Ftilt being useless (it's not). If you neglect any part of his kit, you'll suffer for it.

No one ever said Greninja was easy but I don't think we'd be having this discussion if we didn't feel it was worth it to main this character. I also agree that ratios aren't really helping at all. Greninja MUs tend to be very dynamic over the course of a set.

aMSa actually said that?

Respect +1

During a twitch stream when he was practicing for either Apex 2015 or EVO, can't remember which, the chat was constantly asking him "why Greninja? Why would you stick with Greninja?"

aMSa did give a more detailed answer about how he thinks more players will begin to respect and gravitate towards Greninja over time as he becomes better understood. But most of the time he kept saying how he personally felt Greninja is "cool and cute."

 

[Codaption]

This. So many players complain about Greninja's Ftilt being useless (it's not). If you neglect any part of his kit, you'll suffer for it.

No one ever said Greninja was easy but I don't think we'd be having this discussion if we didn't feel it was worth it to main this character. I also agree that ratios aren't really helping at all. Greninja MUs tend to be very dynamic over the course of a set.


During a twitch stream when he was practicing for either Apex 2015 or EVO, can't remember which, the chat was constantly asking him "why Greninja? Why would you stick with Greninja?"

aMSa did give a more detailed answer about how he thinks more players will begin to respect and gravitate towards Greninja over time as he becomes better understood. But most of the time he kept saying how he personally felt Greninja is "cool and cute."

Ftilt is pretty slow and laggy, but considering the range on that thing I'd say it's a fair trade.

 

[sonus]

If you think Greninja loses to all projectile users then you must really not know how to get around projectiles.

His punishes are weak? Most of his moves combo into something else and he can rack up a lot of damage out of a single mistake made by his opponent.

I play with a good Megaman player a lot and I still manage to win most of our fights, we even fought in an online tournament once and I still won the Bo5 3-1. Megaman does not give Greninja a hard time if you actually know how to fight him properly.

Greninja does not have bad MUs against most of the high tiers, the only ones that are really problematic for him are Sheik, Sonic and Fox. He doesn't have many favorable MUs against high tiers either (just Luigi and maybe Pikachu and Falcon), but he doesn't do badly against them at all.

I don't want to say just "git gud", but I think you just don't know how to really handle Greninja yet, I hardly consider myself a pro or something of the like, but Greninja is a very tricky character to learn because, as Vex said in response to me earlier today, Greninja is a very honest character in that he doesn't have any jank to rely on unlike other characters, so to earn wins with him you are relying basically on your knowledge and skill and you can't count on a single move to help you around, you really need to learn how to use all of his kit.

We don't have something like Sheik's F-Air, Sonic's Spin Dash or Fox's jab combo to get us easy kills or rack up damage easy, but we do have a lot of excellent tools at our disposal such as our ridiculous number of kill setups, one of the best mobilities in the game and a pretty good damage output. It's just that it takes more work and precision to get things right.

Does that make Greninja bad? Nope. Just harder to use, a Greninja player that really knows the character from the inside out and knows when to do what is a really dangerous opponent.

One thing I do want to cover though is that maybe we should change the way we the MU discussions. For the most part we just talk about MU ratios and who wins the MU, but I think it would be more productive for us to discuss mainly just how should Greninja deal with that opponent and his kit.

I suggest we try to ditch MU ratios and just focus on talking about what we should do to win in depth because I think that's going to be more productive for us in the long run and also more helpful for players looking for advice here.



aMSa actually said that?

Respect +1

It has nothing to do with lack of experience, that's for sure. I feel like u guys are facing players that don't know the greninja matchup. I have never lost to a greninja when I face one. I know it helps that I know him quite well, but he is to easy to beat. All one has to do is not be aggressive.

Greninja is one of the easiest characters for me to beat when I'm luigi.
The luigi matchup is not in Greninjas favor at all. Luigi has far better frame data and kill potential from reads and punishes. Greninjas speed hardly does anything for him other than supply a good running upsmash.

As far as projectiles go, did anyone watch sandstorm? One greninja player picked into a megaman and got destroyed. Lemons alone shut greninja down hard. The greninja could do almost nothing about it. I only struggle with projectiles when I'm greninja btw.

It seems like everyone is basing there opinions off what sounds good in writing and not what works in practice. Greninja players are not placing well in tournies and there is a reason for it. The more people figure out greninjas weaknesses the worse he will do. This is why amsa did well at apex, ally and others didn't know the match up and charged in like crazy which is what greninja wants.

I want to be wrong, which is why I play greninja so much and why I'm on this forum, but I have yet to see any light for greninja.

Running into problems editing my post so will say it here. I accept that some here may be better than me at Greninja. Anyone please add me so I can play with you and learn from you. PM me if u add me. NNID:Berd20

Seems like a good place for this post as it's the match up thread and people can show u what they mean in a match.

 

[FullMoon]

It has nothing to do with lack of experience, that's for sure. I feel like u guys are facing players that don't know the greninja matchup. I have never lost to a greninja when I face one. I know it helps that I know him quite well, but he is to easy to beat. All one has to do is not be aggressive.

Greninja is one of the easiest characters for me to beat when I'm luigi.
The luigi matchup is not in Greninjas favor at all. Luigi has far better frame data and kill potential from reads and punishes. Greninjas speed hardly does anything for him other than supply a good running upsmash.

As far as projectiles go, did anyone watch sandstorm? One greninja player picked into a megaman and got destroyed. Lemons alone shut greninja down hard. The greninja could do almost nothing about it. I only struggle with projectiles when I'm greninja btw.

It seems like everyone is basing there opinions off what sounds good in writing and not what works in practice. Greninja players are not placing well in tournies and there is a reason for it. The more people figure out greninjas weaknesses the worse he will do. This is why amsa did well at apex, ally and others didn't know the match up and charged in like crazy which is what greninja wants.

I want to be wrong, which is why I play greninja so much and why I'm on this forum, but I have yet to see any light for greninja.

Running into problems editing my post so will say it here. I accept that some here may be better than me at Greninja. Anyone please add me so I can play with you and learn from you. PM me if u add me. NNID:Berd20

Seems like a good place for this post as it's the match up thread and people can show u what they mean in a match.

You better go tell that to the Luigi boards then because we're not the only ones saying it's 60:40 Greninja. In fact the discussion about Greninja in their boards was pretty much an unanimous 60:40 and even before that I gave them some MU advice before and they seemed to agree with me.

Also just because one Greninja players gets defeated by Megaman's pellets doesn't mean that's how the MU goes. Otherwise I could post a flood of videos of me fighting a Megaman and winning.

The question that comes into mind about those Greninja you say you keep beating is: How good are they?

Greninja is already seldom seen as it is and good Greninja players are even more of a rare sight. Hell, in Anther's Ladder where there's more than 3000 players I'm the only Greninja main who's anywhere in the Top 250 (specifcally I'm at the top 50 but I disgress). It doesn't really mean much since it's just one community but still it shows my point pretty well.

I would gladly take you up for some matches, but I don't think our connection would be very good.

 

[LumpyGravy]

I find Luigi to be a very easy matchup. It's not that bad for Luigi, at worst it's even but more likely it's decisvely in Greninja's favor. His ground and air speed are completely abysmal, making his approaches mediocre and making him very easy to keep out. There's not much Luigi can do against a Greninja committed to maintaining space between them. Yes Luigi's frame data is leagues better but Greninja has the tools for that to never even become a factor in the matchup because he's not at all obligated to box with him.

I think Luigi is our best top tier matchup.

 

[bc1910]

There are a lot of powerful characters who aren't making a splash in tournaments. From the Smashboards statistics Greninja's tournament record is only slightly worse than Zero Suit Samus', a character who is widely considered a top 5 character. Greninja has 3 notable Top 8 placings, Zero Suit only has 4. And much of her rep comes from Nairo.

I find Luigi to be a very easy matchup. It's not that bad for Luigi, at worst it's even but more likely it's decisvely in Greninja's favor. His ground and air speed are completely abysmal, making his approaches mediocre and making him very easy to keep out. There's not much Luigi can do against a Greninja committed to maintaining space between them. Yes Luigi's frame data is leagues better but Greninja has the tools for that to never even become a factor in the matchup because he's not at all obligated to box with him.

I think Luigi is our best top tier matchup.

I'd say Ness is our best notable MU although it depends what you definte as top tier (I actually think neither Ness or Luigi are top tier). Luigi has enough close range cheese to stomp us every now and then whereas Ness struggles to get anything started against us at all. We outcamp him (thankully Shurikens can't be absorbed), up close his frame data isn't THAT good, and his recovery blows. He can't bully us with PK fire and grabs like he can against most of the cast.

He's still a powerful character who demands a lot of respect, if we get careless Ness will be more than happy to murder us with Dthrow -> Fair and Bthrow, but we don't have to be in that situation too often because we can outcamp him and have better mobility. Similar to Luigi really, but when Luigi does catch us it's generally more devastating than when Ness does, and Luigi's recovery isn't as free.

 

[sonus]

You better go tell that to the Luigi boards then because we're not the only ones saying it's 60:40 Greninja. In fact the discussion about Greninja in their boards was pretty much an unanimous 60:40 and even before that I gave them some MU advice before and they seemed to agree with me.

Also just because one Greninja players gets defeated by Megaman's pellets doesn't mean that's how the MU goes. Otherwise I could post a flood of videos of me fighting a Megaman and winning.

The question that comes into mind about those Greninja you say you keep beating is: How good are they?

Greninja is already seldom seen as it is and good Greninja players are even more of a rare sight. Hell, in Anther's Ladder where there's more than 3000 players I'm the only Greninja main who's anywhere in the Top 250 (specifcally I'm at the top 50 but I disgress). It doesn't really mean much since it's just one community but still it shows my point pretty well.

I would gladly take you up for some matches, but I don't think our connection would be very good.

I was using the sandstorm match to reference the issue I was talking about with projectiles. But you are right, one video doesn't mean anything.

Its so strange that luigis are struggling with the match up. My thing is, if I know I'm facing a greninja, I switch to luigi and have an easy time. It's easy to bait greninjas who think they are baiting u because of how good luigi frame data is. And once I'm in on a greninja, it's a pain for him since he has no quick frame moves to break out.

As far as greninjas punishes go, I feel like they hardly end in a kill for him. I feel like I only get kills if I get an fsmash or upsmash read / out of down tilt. Most of greninjas punishes seem to be jabs and up throw combo which isn't going to kill. Seems u can only follow up a weak hit nair with a fair if u know the nair was going to hit and immediately are following up. If u hesitate at all after the nair, then they have time to recover/dodge. Many people will jump after I use f throw which can lead into an easy fair.

People have been wising up to my off stage back airs and shadow sneak so I rarely get those now.

 

[David Galanos]

I appreciate you bringing up some pretty valid points and discussion, and it started off ok and on topic, but I feel like the discussion is about how Greninja is not a good character and cannot win and stuff like that, and we are trying to defend the character and stuff. In general I don't like negativity and that's what I'm getting out of this so I say we stick to match ups in this thread, and take this to the social thread or somewhere. I am aware Greninja has his weaknesses and struggles, and it's good to bring them up, but most people come here to learn about match ups


Also I like the idea of an outline, for statements about match ups. So instead of wrting away, it would be cool to know what to include.

something like:

Ex:

Ratio: 98:2

Reasons for this: lol little mac recovery sux

Do's and don'ts: hydro pump, don't get hit

Other tips/advice to do well: watch out for counters out of combos

Greninja can short hop dair spike on the end of the ledge to spike mac out of his up b and gimp him, rip

I feel like that covers most things but other things could be

struggles for Greninja: super armor is annoying

Advantages as Greninja: hydro pump

that could probably just be done in "Reasons for this" or something


And not saying this should be the outline and obviously it would be a lot better done haha, and in detail, but I think an outline or something like that is a cool idea and is easier for people to give their comments on the matchup, and easier for everyone to read. At least for me I like having something like this, whether I am reading it or writing something. I think maybe coffee brought it up or something like it?
But yeah, going in detail about what to do against these characters to limit or work around disadvantages, and take full advantage of the advantages in the mu are what I feel would benefit people a lot. Sharing different strategies, combos that work on the specific characters, anything like that. Like, if shadow sneak hit sun cancel helps in the matchup, I think that would be great to know and to know how to make sure it works effectively. Like with Luigis down throw, it can help and maybe even hit luigi, but it can also just get you regrabbed or punished. I havent tested anything but Im guessing you can hit luigi depending on when you do the cancel or how you di or where they jump, and percentages are probably involved? Idk that's just an example I thought of.

Sorry if you don't like the idea I just wanna try to help.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't really think we need an outline of sorts, but if one looks good, I guess we could use it. I'm gonna try to make my own contribution with the MU I know the most about out of these 4



Things to watch out for:

Gale Boomerang: This is probably Link's main projectile against us since it has a good range and is very disruptive. It deals some nice damage and it can mess our attacks when the returning windbox hits us. Do keep in mind the way Link can aim the boomerang so you're not caught offguard by it. However it does have some startup to it and if we're close enough to Link we can manage to hit him with a N-Air and start comboing him from there.

Up-Tilt: This move kills, comes out really fast and covers a wide area. It's probably how Link is going to get most of his kills on us. Whenever you're at kill % for it, be careful as Link will very likely try to fish for an Up-Tilt kill.

D-Air: This move is pretty strong and is one of Link's main ways of stopping our Up-Air juggles. This can kill us very early if we're hit by it at a high enough percentage and we're hit by the non-meteor hitbox. Don't go for Up-Air against Link too often because of it or at least don't try more than one outside of lower percentages. Try to see what he tries to do when you're juggling him and bait a D-Air out of him, the move has a lot of end lag so baiting it out can result in a quick F-Smash kill for us, or even a Substitute. D-Air can also trade with Up-Smash unless you hit Link with it at the very tip of the water swords.

Range: The vast majority of Link's moves are disjointed and have a nice range to them so it can make getting in a bit tricky at times. However his moves a fair amount of end lag to them so we can usually get a punish in on him after shielding unless he spaces us out well.

D-Smash: It hits on both sides, has good kill power and it has very little end lag. Don't get too predictable with your rolls or you're gonna get by this a lot.

Things to keep in mind:

Link is very gimpable. We can either stop Link from recovering with Hydro Pump by making him fall to his death or just set him up for a F-Smash finisher when he tries to go with Spin Attack. Not only that but being hit after using his second jump is probably going to kill Link unless he's really close to the ledge, fortunately the angle of our B-Air is going to make sure he won't come back most of the time. His tether recovery can also be abused by B-Air which can result in a stage spike or if you're trying to be stylish, a D-Air spike since Link climbs the wall in an entirely vertical angle, so with good timing hitting with D-Air is a feasible option, though it's probably better to have the stock lead if you're going to do this just so you won't accidentally screw yourself over too much if you miss.

Greninja can interrupt his Up-Smash if he's hit by it when grounded. Just mash jab and you should be able to fall out of the Up-Smash and punish him immediatelly.

Link's Grab is a tether. That means it has enough startup to make it so that we can somewhat reliably stop him from shieldgrabbing our N-Air with a jab unless the shield push makes him slide out of our jab range. Not only that but a failed grab from Link is going to leave him very open for us to punish.

I don't know if Link's bombs are still really good because of the nerfs it got, like I believe it doesn't combo into some stuff anymore, so I just went with recent memory of my matches with Link.

 

[bc1910]

Great idea. An outline, or even just well thought-out analysis, is MUCH better than slapping MU ratios on things. I myself am guilty of this. There is so much discrepancy over what the numbers actually mean, the only thing everyone agrees on is 5-5 being even. Everyone will say that they know 4-6 means a small disadvantage/soft counter and while that's true, people's opinions vary wildly in what that actually means and how winnable that MU is. Some will see it as barely worse than even, while others will see it as barely winnable. There's been a lot of discussion lately about how character board MU ratios tend to be inaccurate and that the analysis of MUs is more valuable, and I think this train of thought is correct.

If we HAVE to, we can put a ratio on things at the end of a MU discussion but they really shouldn't be adhered to stringently. More of a guideline/timesaver so we can pick up where we left off when it comes to building that community MU chart that will almost certainly happen one day.

To that end, having played some excellent German players over the last few days, I have some observations about the MU.

• Having played good players of both characters I think this is better than the Sonic MU.
• We don't have anywhere near as rough of a time as characters who struggle against the jab lock. Our fast fall speed lets us shield the jab lock most of the time, the Fox player has to be frame perfect to true combo us with jabs and if he messes up, rapid jab ender is punishable on block with a Fsmash.
• Unlike Sonic, Fox's pressure has some semblance of risk/reward. His attacks are very quick, but rarely safe on block. A simple jab combo can punish most of his attacks, rack up a decent amount of damage and usually set up for a tech chase. Make sure you use the standard jab combo at low percents though, because Fox will be able to shield the rapid jab and punish us. Don't use the rapid jab until Fox is slightly higher in percent.
• Our OoS options are still poor, which makes shielding less effective against Fox than it is against most characters. He can't attack our shield for free because we can jab him, but he can put a lot of pressure on our shield even when we are at high percent, flustering us into making a mistake and killing us for it
• Our pokes are extremely punishable too, and Fox punishes harder at kill percent with running Usmash. This has to be kept in mind at all times; the slightest mistake can actually mean death at 100%+.
• I don't believe jab jab > Usmash works against us. I was able to shield the Usmash every time. This removes a really notable kill combo against us.
• The projectile play in this MU is very strange. Neither character can camp the other; we run through Fox's lasers fast enough to grab him whenever he pulls out the blaster, but we of course cannot camp him because of his reflector. Overall neither character can afford to just sit back and throw projectiles. Fox can sit back and try to reflect shurikens, but if we simply stalemate him, once again we run fast enough to punish him if he throws out the reflector pre-emptively or if he ever tries to shoot us.
• Fox struggles to kill any character who uses their shield well, because his grabs are quite poor and do not kill. If BOTH characters end up at high percent, I think Greninja has the edge because rage Uthrow will end Fox's stock more safely than any of Fox's options can end ours, including his Usmash (which is fast but very punishable on block).
• The issues arise in trying to outdamage Fox, because we don't have the frame data to box with him. That sonus guy is right about one thing; Greninja's out of shield punishes are poor (which is not the same thing as having poor punishes overall). Greninja has to be a lot more careful than Fox for significantly lower reward. Basically, Greninja works harder for his damage.
• Fox's air speed is terrible and his recovery is gimpable. Simply jumping out and using Bair will end any Fox who tries to side B to the ledge. Which is approximately all of them. The fear factor is really big against Fox but DON'T let that apply to a recovering Fox, go out there and gimp him, it's possible.

I hope some of these observations will be helpful.

 

[ephOE]

I don't know if Link's bombs are still really good because of the nerfs it got, like I believe it doesn't combo into some stuff anymore, so I just went with recent memory of my matches with Link.

As far as I know, Link's bombs don't combo into as much anymore. They have more knockback than Toon bombs, but also more hitstun. Toon Link has the mobility to make the most out of JUmp Canceled throws though, whereas Link's fastest traveling option out of bomb throw is his leaping dash attack. A lot of Link players will follow up bomb throws with dash attacks if they see you roll backwards or drop your shield after blocking a bomb. Down thrown Bomb > Uair is a combo for Link but I don't know if it works at the % window that Toon Link's does, or if it has the same KO power.

Most of the time I believe his bomb combos will be at low % and come from OoS bomb throws, since that puts him closer to us. Otherwise, a bomb confirm lets him either gain some ground or gives him time to bring out more projectiles.

 

[David Galanos]

With Fox, before 65% you can jab and maybe shield out of jab jab. I think jabbing out is the much better option, considering if you shield it you're just gonna jab OoS anyway, but I've never even tried shielding I just alway jab over shielding against it

After 65%, if the fox does it right we are locked (this information is from SmashCorner on Youtube btw and was tested) Most foxes screw it up after or do it too slow though, so I just try to shield or something then.

I used to play a lot of fox, but I don't get to verse foxes that are clearly better players than me, most of the ones I have played I was a bit better than or they were the same level as me. I versed a better fox in a tournament and it was pretty close but he had control over the matches besides the game I won. I like to have more room against fox, I went fd. Most foxes are going to dash attack landing so it's nice to have more room, and I've realized that going to the ledge is a good option if they are just making it a pain to land. I hope to play some better foxes, I can agree that any mistake is a chance to lose control or die, I don't think spacing fair/bair is a good option at all.

 

[Funkermonster]

A

: I personally feel this MU is very easily in our favor. Just to get it out of the way, do not use Shifting Shuriken here. Regular Shuriken is needed to help limit Metal Blade use. With regular Shuriken, we can actually somewhat outcamp Mega Man. It also gives us the chance to possibly bait him into Skull Barrier (If he's using it). If you can bait him into Skull Barrier, Greninja can easily get a free dash grab in. Outside of Shuriken, Greninja has quite a bit on Mega Man. He struggles to get kills more than a lot of characters, which allows our lead game to shine even more than usual. Additionally, we heavily outrange him in a lot of aspects (Fair cuts right through lemons). Our mobility also makes it really hard for him to punish us. Finally, we can catch Mega Man's landings fairly well with Fsmash, so it doesn't hurt to throw out a charged one every now and then when he's trying to land (otherwise, dash grab as usual).

However, Mega Man still has his strengths. Firstly, he is a heavier character, which means that we will have to struggle a bit more to obtain that stock lead. Additionally, despite his struggles to land a kill, he does have moves that do kill really early (namely Dsmash and Utilt), which can absolutely be detrimental to Greninja if Mega Man gets a read with one of them, so we can't be too roll happy. Mega Man is also great at punishing landings with customs on as he gets access to Danger Wrap (exploding bubbles) which also function as a kill tool. They may also try and use Danger Wrap if they predict an aerial approach, so be wary of this custom. Also, I would not recommend holding on to his Metal Blade as he can then approach fairly easily with lemons, which will easily cancel out uncharged Shurikens. If you want to run away from him, Metal Blade won't be too much of an issue anyway. Finally, also be aware that Mega Man can go for a ledge trump Bair, which will also kill early, so it's best for us not to hang on the ledge.

Overall, though, Greninja outranges Mega Man and certainly beats him in mobility (we easily outpace him). We can punish a good portion of his moveset with jab (and many with grabs), and our Uthrow to Uair combos him for much longer than most characters due to his weight. We also generally outspace him at mid-range. We just need to be very careful up close as he has a fast grab and of course Utilt. Finally, although I haven't played one in tourney since learning it, the upward item throw boost does give us another approach option if we can grab his Metal Blade. I'll call it at 60:40 Greninja favor (sorry if this wasn't super in-depth haha. I went over Mega Man previously and not much has really changed since then besides me believing the MU is easier for Greninja than I initially thought).

I know we're not on The Blue Bomber anymore, but as a player of both players I feel that some parts of that analysis are either disagreeable or that its missing other important info. I think you are underestimating Mega Man as a character, and I don't see this MU being any better than 55:45 in either direction.

First off, I fail to see how Greninja outcamps Mega Man. Shurikens do outrange most of his stuff, but lemons (and leaf shield too, high priority projectile) will just cancel out the uncharged ones and if you go for a fully charged one, I can still jump over it or get a free crash bomb & metal blade as long as I jump away before I shoot. And while I personally feel he doesn't really need Skull Barrier for this MU, baiting him into it nets you a free grab? Most Mega Men are going to almost always jump before activating it or any of his DownBs to avoid being punished, and he still has the following options with it activated: Shield, Spotdodge, Jump, Grab, Item Use (if he had a MB in his hand before activating DownB, he can still throw it and zdrop it); plus skull barrier just push you away if he spotdodges your grab. I do not reccommend charging Fsmash to punish my landing, I will land away from you and fire more lemons before I it the ground ( which also cancels the landing lag I would otherwise have from UpB) and to an extent I can also protect my landing with Danger Wrap, Ice Slasher, and Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier. Shadow Sneak can work to punish his landing with a decent amount of kill power, but if Leaf Shield is up it'll just cancelled out and nothing will happen. And while Fair may cut through lemons, its got too much startup and Mega Man can still SH Lemon it or maybe anti-air with Danger Wrap, Shoryuken, or his own Fair. And While Mega Man's killing options are pretty situational, you forget that his edgeguardng game is amazing, dare I say better than Ninja's in some aspects and he has a few bonus kill options too.

• Metal Blades, can be zdropped or tossed diagonally. Onstage, Mega Man can fullhop and toss one towards you which has just enough hitstun to combo into usmash for damage building or shoryuken for killing, and he can get a grab if you shield. Basically Mega's 'sacred combo', though it is high risk and reward and a little tough to pull off.
• Crash Bonber, usually if you already have one planted on before Mega sends you offstage. Crash Bomber is already fantastic mindgame tool and shieldpoker onstage, but while recovering back your defenses against it are limited to: Substitute, Air Dodging, Grabbing Ledge for Invincibility, or just outright taking the damage; and all options are punishable if Mega reads them.
• Bair ledge trumping. He can also fire lemons, metal blades, and crash bombers from a distance to pressure on you so you can't just recover at your leisure.
• Custom UpB Tornado Hold, this move is just freaking awesome. In exchange for a mediocre recovery, I let to place a tornado at the edge to protect it and stop you from recovering low unless you want to take some damage using Hydro Pump. Onstage, its also a great out of shield option (and a comboable one at that: can double jump and follow up with Bair, Fair, Uair, or Danger Wrap) and can sometimes literally free me from your grab if I do it just before you grab me.
• Danger Wrap, works great if you try to recover high and combines well with Tornado Hold. I can also kind of combo with it from Dthrow and while I agree that Mega's landings can be punished by ninja, he can still frame trap your landings just as well if not better.

I swear to god, this robo-kid is literally a mountain of a character, so many options that its too hard to cover them all. Regardless though, the only MUs for him that are definitely bad are and , I think Greninja and Mega Man are super even with each other and while Greninja could potentially beat him, I find that it is highly debatable, not explored enough, or doesn't get any worse than -0.5 in either side. I think you undersell what he's capable of, I don't think this is that easy of a fight on either side.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As for , I got a tourney today but I can post about it later when I come back and finish my homework. But for now, I'll simply say that there's no way its in his favor at all. I doubt is much of a threat either.

 

[Gunla]

A little late and a little brief, but the Doc MU is likely a 60:40 Greninja. Might add more later, but here's a briefing.

Doc hits harder than Mario, but replaces FLUDD for Tornado. He's much more gimpable than Mario, but has to be respected as well. Overall, it's similar to the Mario MU (so look at last week's comments for it), but a slower Mario gives Greninja a slight advantage.

 

[bc1910]

I see the Doc MU as similar to the Falcon MU in that they can both beat Greninja up close but have very gimpable recoveries. However with Doc, his up close game isn't as rewarding and his recovery is probably worse than Falcon's. I know Doc & Falcon aren't that similar and Doc has a projectile blah blah but this MU fundamentally boils down to being a better version of a MU we already (probably) win.

 

[Codaption]

Megaman is a very wonky fighter, and as such most of his players will have a lot of zany tricks up their sleeves. Never sell him low, unless you have an appetite for lemons.

(Unless you're Fox. Regardless of how deep you can go into the matchup, I fail to see how his reflector alone wouldn't decimate so many of mm's options. But hey, that's just me.)

 

[FullMoon]

For the MU...

Watch out for the tornado. It's pretty strong, has good priority and Doc can attempt to edgeguard us with it, being caught by it offstage at mid-high percentages is very likely to result in death. The tornado also makes edgeguarding Doc with B-Air a bit hard and risky, however the end lag of it is really exploitable so Doc is unlikely to throw it out at random unless they're making a really hard read. Be mindful of the tornado when trying to recover and punish it whenever you can.

Doc's frame data is identical to Mario's. Which means that Mario's usual fast moves are still in play here, but even stronger. Up-Smash in particular is very dangerous because it comes out fast and hits hard

We can go under pills. So if we time it well, we can run under the pill when it's bouncing and still dash grab Doc while he's stuck in the end lag of the move when he's grounded, or catch his landing if he's in the air. Overall the pills are much less effective at keeping us out than Mario's fireballs.

N-Air is very disruptive. It can very easily stop us from juggling the Doc and he can even get out of our multi-jab with it, so don't use the multi-jab too often in this MU. If you can see a N-Air coming though while you're grounded, you can powershield it and punish the Doc for it with a jab. Be always mindful of Doc going for a N-Air while you're juggling him.

Doc's recovery is super exploitable. Greninja can mess with the tornado with Hydro Pump or a well timed B-Air that will likely doom Doc if he used his double jump. His Up-B has very little distance which mean that Doc can't afford to go too deep and so forcing an airdodge from him with a shuriken can prove to be lethal sometimes.

When we're in the Neutral we mainly want to keep some pressure on Doc and wait for him to overcommit to something before we can dish out punishment. Shurikens are good but don't get spammy with them, pestering Doc with them allows you to bait a cape from him for a punish too if you read him just right and you're close enough. Pressuring him with spaced F-Airs is really good too and if we space our N-Air well he can't shield grab us and if he tries to, then he just leaves himself right open.

Our Advantage against him is really good since he doesn't have the mobility to get away from us while we're juggling him, the only thing we have to worry about while in this state is his N-Air as I said above.

In Disadvantage we don't really have much to fear from Doc. Like Mario, he struggles to get his kills, though he at least can kill earlier than him, due to a lack of reliable kill setups. Plus, Doc being considerably slower than Mario means Hydro Pump can get us away from him pretty easily without him being able to catch us. Overall we don't struggle much to get the game reseted back to neutral if we need to.

We just plain win when it comes to Edgeguarding, period. The only thing we have to worry about when being edgeguarded by Doc is the tornado which can kill us really early if we're hit by it offstage and it can cover a good area if the player is good enough at mashing. On the other hand we can really ruin Doc's day with our offstage options. Being hit by a B-Air is pretty much a death sentence for him and Hydro Pump can screw him up badly. Even our shurikens can be pretty effective since they can force him to airdodge, which depending of how far from the ledge he is can lead to death, or make him use his cape that doesn't stall him in the air like Mario's, which doesn't really do much to help him either.

That's about all I can say about the Doc that comes up to mind from what I remember. I'm sure if I said something dumb @ Gunla can clear it up.

 

[Gunla]

Yeah, mostly right on the remarks, Full.

A few things I'll add:

• Doc's Bair offstage is something to keep in mind along with edge Tornado. They'll disrupt you and potentially take a stock at mid-%s.
• Offstage Doc is easy pickings if they don't use Tornado to recover, but watch for Gust Cape if you're trying to Hydro Pump or be flashy. If they Tornado early and recover high, stick to bair, and if they recover low, then Hydro Pump. FCWS will potentially let him recover, so keep charges low or use uncharged.
• Doc's FSmash kills very early. All of Doc's Smashes in particular are exceptionally powerful and can send you offstage (even USmash!). So respect them. Doc has the ability to punish very severely at higher %s because he hits hard.
• Fast Pills are a nuisance. Unlike Regular Pills, they're like Mario's Neutral 2 and serve to irritate you.
• As a Doc, I rarely use grounded Normal Pills, but exploit the end lag if the Doc does a ground pill. It really leaves him open.
• Gust Cape, in general, is something to be mindful of. It has a higher but shorter windbox, but is just as dangerous as Mario's Gust Cape.

This MU would be closer to even if it wasn't for Doc's speed issue and overall worse recovery.

 

[FullMoon]

I always forget to take customs into account since I rarely play with them on =V

 

[Gunla]

Results

• (40:60)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (70:30 -> 55:45)

This Week's MUs:

• (Requested. I personally think this is a brutal MU for a lot of characters, Greninja included. I'll pitch the 40:60 at least.)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (60:40- Requested, although I still stand by the 60:40 personally)

 

[David Galanos]

I thought I heard falcon was 60:40 us, but I think I remember it switching. Idek anymore lol

 

[FullMoon]

I think Falcon is even at worst for us. No way a character with such an amazing advantaged state and edgeguarding loses to Falcon who was a terrible disadvantaged state and very exploitable recovery.

Even the neutral I think we win because as long as we don't get to spammy with shurikens, we can really use them to pester Falcon.

Expect a more detailed post from me about Falcon and Luigi later.

 

[Jaguar360]

I'm fairly certain that Greninja has an advantage against Mewtwo. On the ground, it is mostly in our favor since we can pressure him with Shurikens and have the speed to get in on him easily. We have to respect D-tilt since it's fast and has a lot of range and can lead into combos with N-air, F-air or U-smash at low percents. He has an advantage in the air overall because of his faster aerials (N-air and F-air in particular) and B-air and F-air have comparable range to Greninja's f-air. Greninja should try to stay on the ground unless he's using SHFF N-air or F-air or has already started a combo on Mewtwo. Mewtwo's air dodge is also really good. However, Mewtwo needs to be careful in the air as well, because sweetspot U-smash from Greninja kills super early on him.

Stage control in general is in Greninja's favor because of the speed and shurikens, but Greninja can't charge WS too much in fear of Confusion. If Mewtwo manages to charge a Shadow Ball, Greninja needs to be careful to not get caught in it, as it moves quickly, is very powerful and goes very far. Uncharged Shadow Ball is really bad in this matchup since they have little-to-no hitstun and uncharged WS cancels it out easily.

Both are great at racking damage; Greninja can combo Mewtwo with stuff like DA > F-air, D-throw > F-air and U-throw > U-air pretty well thanks to Mewtwo's size, but Greninja vulnerable to a lot of Mewtwo's combos and setups as well since he's a fast-faller. U-tilt > U-smash, D-throw > running U-smash, and D-tilt combos are generally effective against Greninja.

In terms of getting the kill both do a great job. Sweetspot U-smash can allow Greninja to end stocks early against the light Mewtwo and he has U-throw to fall back on if he must (I think it kills a little earlier than 150% without rage on Mewtwo, but I need to test to make sure). Mewtwo must also respect F-smash, D-smash, U-air and F-air. D-tilt to U-smash is a good setup on him, but Mewtwo's great air dodge and slightly below average falling speed can make it hard to land sometimes. U-air spikes to D-smash/U-smash will get the job done guaranteed though. Mewtwo kills everyone pretty effortlessly, having two kill throws, a projectile that kills with full charge, U-tilt > U-smash, the (not guaranteed) Jab > Disable setup, D-throw > U-smash (not guaranteed, but good on fast-fallers like Greninja), and the powerful and non-laggy D-smash.

Overall, I think Greninja has an edge while his great pressure, speed and improved time killing against such a light character. Mewtwo's damage, killing options, charged Shadow Ball and Confusion must be respected, however.


In terms of how to fight Mewtwo, Greninja must put as much pressure on him as possible and give him as little time as possible to breathe and charge Shadow Balls. Approach using a combination of uncharged/moderately charged WS, Dash > Shield, SHFF N-air/F-air and D-tilt and wait for an opening to Dash Attack, Dash Grab or running U-smash. Hydro Pump is generally effective against him for poking and controlling the stage. Don't be afraid to go in on him, especially when comboing, but you can't get too reckless, as getting grabbed by him is bad.

Shadow Ball, Confusion, D-tilt, Jab, N-air, F-air and grab are the main moves to watch out for. SB, D-tilt and grab were talked about mostly. Confusion true combos into U-tilt, but you want to jump out of it or prepare for a tech in case Mewtwo tries anything else. Greninja should also be careful about it when edgeguarding. Jab1 has short range, but it is fairly quick and jab cancels can lead into many followups. The multi-hit jab is great and the final hit has deceptive range. N-air's endlag is nearly nonexistent, allowing it to combo into F-air in many situations. It also autocancels. F-air is often used in short hops, has great range, is fast and kills. Great offstage edgeguard as well that Greninja has to keep in mind.

 

[David Galanos]

Before we get into next week, I played a great fox today who's been to some Xanadus actually and has done pretty well. But I feel I have a bit better idea on the mu. In my opinion, it kind of made me agree that it is our worst matchup alongside sheik, probably 60:40 I guess, I could say 55:45 but idk Im pretty positive 60:40 is a lot more accurate. You kind of have to play a bit more defensive and patient, so less nair approaches and less giving them chances to punish in general and if you're anything like me it's tough. A good fox can punish for any small mistake. Most of the foxes I've seen shield a lot and want you to approach so they can jab jab OoS or grab or dash attack or whatever else. They will approach though, they want those dash attacks in particular. You want to bait out his approaches, and punish with a dash grab or something. Throws and getting him in the air I found very rewarding, I could connect pretty much all my up throw up airs, I find it easier due to his fall speed so I recommend more grabs in this mu especially if they are shield happy. Also UP TILT. I juggled him pretty well with up tilt -> back air and idk it felt like I was 100% going to follow up. Same with up tilt to up air at lower and higher percents to kill. I know up tilt has great hit stun no matter what but I found up tilt and up throws or even f throws at low percents to be beneficial for combos. Back air spaced seemed better than fair spaced I can't exactly say why, maybe I was just spacing the bairs better. Spacing ariels in this mu must be near perfect though unless they miss punishes. If you miss space it thats a free dash attack or grab. So really its not that good of an idea to do it in the first place. Dash attack is the main thing in the mu. Fox will use it to cover our poor landing options and start combos with up tilt and all that fun stuff. I recommend retreating to the ledge if they are juggling you. This fox did not let me edge guard him at all. He never gave an opportunity to stage spike or anything. The most common and safest way to recover, when they are father down, is to up b diagonally to the ledge. Otherwise they can and will side b. But if you are at the ledge and they are going diagonally I recommend trying to up b gimp, I got a couple of them. If you have the time you should hang on the ledge, drop down quickly and up b to push them away. So yeah main thing in this mu is patience, baiting things out, putting pressure from below him and juggling, trying to edge guard if you can, and to just be careful and not open yourself up.


I want to talk about , but at this point I honestly don't know where we stand anymore, but I don't think it's really a bad mu, we are just susceptible to grab follow ups of course, we can also combo him well too though. And shuriken may not zone falcon out like I may have thought but just kinda disrupt him and stuff. But like FullMoon said his recovery is a great weakness, I'll leave everyone else to leave their more detailed thoughts


For , it's kind of weird. Because I do believe we have advantages in the mu, such as:
- juggling him because of his floatiness
- we out range/camp with shuriken
- it can be hard for him to get grabs at times because of our speed and slipperiness
- we can edgehuard him pretty well

But, just like falcon, we can still get down thrown to luigi stuff, but, shadow sneak hit stun canceling can help

This can result in escaping the strings, to hitting him, or to getting regrabbed. I feel like it depends on where they are after the follow up, percentages, and your di, but I don't know those specifics, I just know this technique can be helpful and unhelpful haha.

In the end this is not reliable, and also, grabs are grabs, and they will most likely get them, so we are going to eat that percent from the follow ups most of the time.

Also another tip is that you can bait and punish Nair-ing out of combos. A lot of luigis will do this, and you can up throw and charge f smash, down throw and shield, and shield grab or f smash, stuff like that. You'll find it very helpful. Also, you can smash di down throw tornado. I just mash down on the control stick repeatedly and it helps me fall out a good amount of times lol.

In general I do think the mu is 60:40 us, if you count luigi still having better combos and all that stuff it could be something different, his frame data is a lot better as well, but if the advantages are being taken advantage of, the match up is most likely 60:40 Greninja.

I do think we have an adv with but I am not suitable to explain, and I have pretty good experience with but idk what to say or what it is. I feel like theres some similarities in the fox mu except not near as strong for falco, I would assume it's even, maybe slightly in our favor idk.

 

[Ffamran]

*sees Falco on the title* ... YOU FORGOT ABOUT US AGAIN! What are we? Wyoming? Bulgaria?

One thing I do want to cover though is that maybe we should change the way we the MU discussions. For the most part we just talk about MU ratios and who wins the MU, but I think it would be more productive for us to discuss mainly just how should Greninja deal with that opponent and his kit.

I suggest we try to ditch MU ratios and just focus on talking about what we should do to win in depth because I think that's going to be more productive for us in the long run and also more helpful for players looking for advice here.

Considering the game's still not a year old and there's so many characters, this might be a better option until say, another year for popular characters.

 

[Coffee™]

Why is Fox listed as a 60:40 when there is no clear consensus?

I'd go as far as saying Luigi is 65:35. That character cannot approach Greninja at all...

 

[bc1910]

Agreed, Fox shouldn't be listed at 40:60 without a clear vote. For my own input, a 40:60 MU should be very difficult to win at high level, and I don't believe Fox falls into that camp for us. I don't think he beats us hard enough to say he actually counters us, which is what a 40:60 MU implies. I think Sheik is the only character who fits that bill for us. From my own practice I think Sonic does too but I haven't observed enough high level play from other players to say that for sure and I think there are things in the MU that I'm not utilising properly, such as jabbing Spin Dash more often or using Hydro Pump when he's trying to land after spring.

Once again, I'm not going to give a MU ratio for since I think analysis and discussion is far more valuable. With that said, here are my notes:

• I think Greninja has a small advantage overall.
• Luigi's approach is made very difficult by the fact that fully charged WS outranges his fireballs and goes right through them due to its transcendent priority. These are much the same issues he faces when fighting Sheik and her needles. We can't outcamp him if both characters just sit there mashing B though, we need to use fully charged shuriken properly. (Fun fact: if both characters sit there mashing B, Greninja can actually outdamage Sheik!)
• Of course, FCWS takes a lot longer to throw than Sheik's needles, but we have the option of letting the shuriken go whenever if we need to cancel out a fireball. Luigi does not run fast enough to punish shuriken's endlag most of the time.
• Luigi's CQC is a lot better than ours, since he's the CQC master of the game really, but we actually outrange him pretty badly and have an excellent dash grab and dash attack combined with exponentially better mobility. Boxing with him isn't a good idea, but clever use of the mid-close range where we can threaten Luigi but he can't threaten us actually gives us some really good options up close. The most important thing to watch for at mid-close range is his dash grab, we should outrange everything else pretty safely though.
• Don't fall for fireball tick throws. If he throws a fireball and you shield it, drop your shield and jab him as he runs in for the grab. Dtilt will work too if Luigi starts running from far away. Don't panic! Luigi gets so many free grabs off chasing after fireballs and he really shouldn't be getting them against us, our jab is too fast.
• When Luigi does start a combo, usually from a grab, we are sadly in for a world of pain. Our fall speed and weight makes us really susceptible to his combos. The best thing to do is really just try to stop him from getting those grabs in the first place. Remember how to DI his Dthrow properly if you do get grabbed (behind him at low percents, away from him at high percents).
• Edgeguarding a good Luigi is not that easy because they will usually recover low and cover themselves with tornado. Luigi's really floaty though, so the best thing to do after knocking him offstage is to stay on him, read/react to an airdodge and Bair before he gets low enough to recover.
• Watch out for Luigi trying to edgeguard with tornado, too. It uses the autolink angle so if Luigi uses it while falling, he can hit us with the bottom of the attack and spike us to death.

 

[Gunla]

• (?:?)

I'm one to view that a 40:60 isn't an exact counter, but since this is one of those MUs, I'm going to put up a poll for this week and allow Fox discussion to continue until next Monday, along with removing Fox's rating from the OP. Hey, if we want to, we could actually use this more often if we're having an issue with a certain character.

My apologies on the Fox MU, and my handling of it. Much akin to Mii Gunner, no doubt we will visit it again before this season ends, but next week, the revisit will likely go towards .

Poll​