Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Codaption]

I mentioned a lot of that in my first post about the MU.

Oh, well. Derp.

Even so, I haven't really seen much discussion about tomes here, particularly from the Robin players. It'd be good to hear your input input on their specific uses, because you're the ones who play the character. For myself, I'd like to reiterate my point about their power against shield, and point out Greninja's weak oos options....

 

[Gunla]

Results:

• / (?:? Man, these two have a knack for being neglected.)
  
• (55:45)
• (55:45)

Last Week of the Season. Unknown Matchups are on the table, as well some previous MUs:

• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage, but note customs.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Discussed to be evenish.)
  
• (Too controversial to place a clear result.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Not really discussed.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage on M2's board.)
  
• (Discussed to be slight advantage.)
  
• (Not really discussed.)
  
• (Not really discussed.)
  
• (Not really discussed. Personally, I think it's even-slight advantage.)
  
• (Not discussed, but likely an advantage.)

For Returning MUs.. two of the highest threats in the game, as well as one of the other controversial matchups:

• (40:60)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (45:55)

 

[Coffee™]

My opinions.

For the record I consider 55:45 a +1, 60:40 a +2, etc...

Results:

• / (?:? Man, these two have a knack for being neglected.)
  
• (55:45)
• (55:45)

Last Week of the Season. Unknown Matchups are on the table, as well some previous MUs:

• (55:45)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (55:45)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (55:45)
  
• (40:60)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (55:45)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (45:55)
  
• (55:45)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (55:45)
  
• ( - )
  
• (60:40)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (60:40)
  
• ( - )

For Returning MUs.. two of the highest threats in the game, as well as one of the other controversial matchups:

• (40:60)
  
• (60:40)
  
• (40:60)

 

[FullMoon]

'kay I'm gonna go ahead and add mine too:

• 55:45
• 50:50
• 55:45
• 55:45
• 60:40
• 55:45
• 50:50
• 50:50
• 60:40
• 50:50
• 55:45
• 50:50
• 50:50
• 50:50
• 50:50
• 60:40
• 55:45
• 55:45
• 50:50
• ?
• ?

For Returning MUs.. two of the highest threats in the game, as well as one of the other controversial matchups:

• (40:60)
• (50:50)
• (45:55)

I'm gonna see if I can go in more depth about some of those later.

 

[Shaya]

I think Marth wins.
Greninja has no real answers to fair, nair or down tilt while grounded and gets emasculated in the air.
Even in 1.04 it was evenish, arguably difficult for ninja and despite small buffs to Greninja (which I won't accept as anywhere near as impactful as what Marth has gotten), Marth's buffs is pushing this towards 60:40. Oh... you cap Greninja's worst match up at 40:60, I guess to avoid the semantics drama I'll say -1/55:45.

I play this match up in tournament with multiple characters. Marth has it the easiest by FAR (out of my Diddy/Falco/ZSS/G&W) and this has been a consistent thing over multiple greninja players. Greninja is completely blind spotted at anything above his head in front of him, or in general anything above his head that can reach him from there. He really does have some melee/brawl low tier weaknesses that aren't accentuated as much as they used to be from top tiers, but Marth still has those tools that dominate them.

 

[FullMoon]

I myself never really struggled against Marth players and I find it pretty easy to just camp them out with shuriken. This MU doesn't really feel hard at all.

 

[TTYK]

A smart Marth or Lucina will not be an easy matchup imho. Especially Marth. Shuriken are spammable, and they do work, but it doesn't give us any substantial push in the end. I say (55-45) -1. (60-40) is really pushing it though, because there are some niche things we can do despite the disadvantages.

 

[Shaya]

I myself never really struggled against Marth players and I find it pretty easy to just camp them out with shuriken. This MU doesn't really feel hard at all.

I see shuriken, I think free forward air or up air. That is, if you're within mid range (outside your dash grab reach). Seeing as we out box you with dtilt/jab we control up close too.
Like, 5 frames off and it's still a free sh air dodge in aerial... that's now safe on your shield if you bring it up in time.

 

[Coffee™]

I think Marth wins.
I play this match up in tournament with multiple characters. Marth has it the easiest by FAR (out of my Diddy/Falco/ZSS/G&W) and this has been a consistent thing over multiple greninja players. Greninja is completely blind spotted at anything above his head in front of him, or in general anything above his head that can reach him from there. He really does have some melee/brawl low tier weaknesses that aren't accentuated as much as they used to be from top tiers, but Marth still has those tools that dominate them.

Greninja has Utilt to cover that range. Being able to perfect pivot it is especially useful for that scenario. Most Greninja's don't really seem to be that comfortable with move in neutral yet from what I've seen though.

I see shuriken, I think free forward air or up air. That is, if you're within mid range (outside your dash grab reach). Seeing as we out box you with dtilt/jab we control up close too.
Like, 5 frames off and it's still a free sh air dodge in aerial... that's now safe on your shield if you bring it up in time.

With the 1.10 speed increase the shuriken is only free on a read. As for the up close game. I feel quite the opposite. Greninja's Jab allows him to reset neutral with a positional advantage each time he hits it and Marth doesn't really have any option within it's range to combat it. Ftilt is also pretty safe against him with it's range. This is one matchup where I feel the end lag decrease on Ftilt actually made a notable difference.

 

[Shaya]

Up tilt beating marth's aerials to cover that range... not very impressed.

20 frames start up doesn't require a read ;\
You neither have an attack nor defensive option (shield; reliably at least) to beat that incoming attack and you can't react in time to landing in grab. Yes, in the 10 frames marth has to use any of his aerials before landing he can fast fall and grab you 2x as fast as your shuriken; i.e. actually requires a read from you when one option is nearly completely safe already.
Edit: But going by the logical numbers, while Marth can get through the shuriken still, you will (bar 10 frame reaction) be around a 10 frame neutral window; this is for a completely uncharged one. So while I think the blind zone is still an issue you aren't inherently at a frame disadvantage.
So we're on the same page sh air dodge is 6 frames start up, and ff fair will be coming in 35 frames after that. However, for most charges we're getting in. It does allow us to get in with a strong option out of it that can really frustrate.


Latest jab is also demon for you due to your fall speed and it out ranges your jab, isn't much slower, and you lose trading with it (due to your fall speed). Ftilt will tend to lose to jab as well and doesn't really compete with our down tilt or jab in disjoint/range. Dancing Blade is good enough in range to punish ftilt on shield as well; it outranges our jab and tilts. Without a really poorly shielded (i.e. max lock frames) and well spaced, your ftilt is easily punishable by us :\ (actually, this applies to a lot of Greninja's moveset.... every since they fixed dancing blade so you couldn't just shield the 3rd hit 100% of the time was a large boon in the match up as well).

 

[bc1910]

I don't think we lose to Marth either, I have no issues camping him out nor Fsmashing his SHADs or forward rolling, even dashing past them on reaction. However you guys have brought up good points and are discussing this MU much more in depth which I don't have time to do (I'm at work), just wanted to lay down my basic thoughts, though I may revisit this later.

I disagree that Greninja's most recent buffs are small, his most important tool was all but restored and he got an earlier kill setup from throw. I think they are less impactful but not far from being as impactful as Marth's buffs overall. One more good buff (grab startup?) would even things up.

@ Shaya I am actually far more interested in hearing your thoughts on the ZSS MU? Because by all accounts we should lose but I never actually feel like I'm disadvantaged against her (outside of flip jump + lag obviously). It just doesn't play out like it should. We can actually do things. There's also examples of Greninja holding his own against ZSS at a fairly high level, with Eddy narrowly losing to a ZSS who got top 8 in a recent French tournament (Eddy got 9th) having taken the lead in the matches several times.

 

[Shaya]

SHAD is a reactive tool. And unfortunately it can be stupid if spammed on wifi (makes me ill coming up against such marths/lucinas on FG, almost as much as shieldbreaker spammers; SIGH). But otherwise, there should never be an fsmash punish on our sh air dodge.
And forward rolling is so so thing with Marth, wouldn't really be throwing those out other than a weird point blank charge situation that i can't hit you with a tilt/db with? I would maybe see an fsmash and go "I can roll through this". But db/our smashes/shieldbreaker do outrange it.

Alright guys. I see how it is. If you can give me a run down on what greninja can feasibly do to a retreating full hop forward air well spaced on your shield and it makes sense I'll be a lot more confident it isn't a poor match up (Little Mac could do with the same advice, he's up creek without a paddle as it is too) and will learn a lot more about Greninja's capabilities from it too; until then brawl-esque fair/dtilt/db seems to be a pretty solid ticket in restricting and shutting him down.

ZSS vs Greninja is awkward because neither really has an approach. ZSS can't sh nair over shuriken like at all. Her sh air dodge game is a lot less versatile than Marth's (bair, or first hit fair/uair which can easily whiff). Jab isn't as functional, although it combos into things like up tilt and up-b properly in this match up, a rare thing she's able to do and a little of a godsend. She can't really zair you for being passive much.
Unlike other characters, you don't really act out as hitting shield, because you can't afford to, this is another area ZSS tends to like in match ups, using her shield... but it doesn't get you too much here at all. Dash attack being transcended priority is a downer here I suppose, if it clanked things it would probably be a lot easier to get in.

 

[Coffee™]

Up tilt beating marth's aerials to cover that range... not very impressed.


20 frames start up doesn't require a read ;\

You neither have an attack nor defensive option (shield; reliably at least) to beat that incoming attack and you can't react in time to landing in grab. Yes, in the 10 frames marth has to use any of his aerials before landing he can fast fall and grab you 2x as fast as your shuriken; i.e. actually requires a read from you when one option is nearly completely safe already.

Edit: But going by the logical numbers, while Marth can get through the shuriken still, you will (bar 10 frame reaction) be around a 10 frame neutral window; this is for a completely uncharged one. So while I think the blind zone is still an issue you aren't inherently at a frame disadvantage.

So we're on the same page sh air dodge is 6 frames start up, and ff fair will be coming in 35 frames after that. However, for most charges we're getting in. It does allow us to get in with a strong option out of it that can really frustrate.

Latest jab is also demon for you due to your fall speed and it out ranges your jab, isn't much slower, and you lose trading with it (due to your fall speed). Ftilt will tend to lose to jab as well and doesn't really compete with our down tilt or jab in disjoint/range. Dancing Blade is good enough in range to punish ftilt on shield as well; it outranges our jab and tilts. Without a really poorly shielded (i.e. max lock frames) and well spaced, your ftilt is easily punishable by us :\ (actually, this applies to a lot of Greninja's moveset.... every since they fixed dancing blade so you couldn't just shield the 3rd hit 100% of the time was a large boon in the match up as well).

I’m not saying PP Utilt flat out beats his aerials. Marth just has to be wary of it as an option because it is a pretty good one when it comes to to combating his SH approaches. The reduction of Greninja’s hurtbox during Utilt is also quite notable here as it allows him to slide under Fair and Nair approaches whilst still being able to punish them. Up angled Ftilt is also particularly useful for covering the angles Marth generally approaches from. Not the greatest tools for the scenario but they are useful options regardless.

As for Water Shuriken, I said it requires a read because Greninja should generally be mobile when using the move or be at a range where you know it can’t be punished even on whiff. Think of it like Mario’s Fireball. Despite it’s startup you aren’t really punishing it unless you read the timing of when Mario will go for the fireball.

I still think Greninja wins the up close game. His options there are simply faster and he gets more reward off them. In addition The spacing where Marth outranges with Jab and Dtilt is still fair game for Dash Grab. Marth still has to respect Greninja in these ranges despite the overall disjoint and range advantage.

I’m curious about what makes Jab “demon” though. Does Greninja being a fast faller mean he gets combo’d to Fsmash or any specific movies easier?

Alright guys. I see how it is. If you can give me a run down on what greninja can feasibly do to a retreating full hop forward air well spaced on your shield and it makes sense I'll be a lot more confident it isn't a poor match up (Little Mac could do with the same advice, he's up creek without a paddle as it is too) and will learn a lot more about Greninja's capabilities from it too; until then brawl-esque fair/dtilt/db seems to be a pretty solid ticket in restricting and shutting him down.

If it’s full hop Marth has to be much more wary about his landing. Greninja doesn’t need to actively punish Fair on my shield. It’s easier for him to simply punish Marth’s landing with Dash Grab or retreat with shuriken if you know you can’t.

I’ve personally never felt that I don’t have much options against Marth spacing.

ZSS vs Greninja is awkward because neither really has an approach. ZSS can't sh nair over shuriken like at all. Her sh air dodge game is a lot less versatile than Marth's (bair, or first hit fair/uair which can easily whiff). Jab isn't as functional, although it combos into things like up tilt and up-b properly in this match up, a rare thing she's able to do and a little of a godsend. She can't really zair you for being passive much.

Unlike other characters, you don't really act out as hitting shield, because you can't afford to, this is another area ZSS tends to like in match ups, using her shield... but it doesn't get you too much here at all. Dash attack being transcended priority is a downer here I suppose, if it clanked things it would probably be a lot easier to get in.

Greninja really doesn’t have to bother approaching at all here though as shurikens generally stuff ZSS’s already mediocre approaches. In addition, just like with Marth it’s fairly easy to Dash Grab her landings.

Greninja also doesn’t care about her kill moves. He can SSneak out of Uair strings, Fsmash and Boost Kick. He also get’s away with a lot on her shield that he can’t against other characters simply because of her grab. It’s one of his better high tier matchups in my opinion.

 

[bc1910]

First things first - ZSS' jab does not combo into Up B against us even at 999%, we can shield long before it would combo. A frame perfect Utilt is harder to test but it doesn't look like that combos either.

Now, I've labbed a few scenarios and ideas Re. Marth.

First off I should mention that Greninja should never just be sitting in shield waiting to punish Marth, making himself free to Marth's spacing. He should never be sitting in shield ever. His OoS game is garbage, we know this. It's his other strengths that offset it (his OoS game is his last big weakness, too). I feel like this whole discussion has kind of ignored Greninja's superior mobility and ability to get in on Marth by using his speed, running into shield to get hit with a non-tipper that he CAN punish, simply darting around outside Marth's range, etc.

The moves Greninja has to hit his "blind spot" are up angled Ftilt (best/safest option), Bair (fine), Nair (fine), Fsmash (good when it hits but requires them to fall a bit low), dash forward sweetspot Usmash (slowish, but works), sourspot Usmash (slowish, but works) and Fair (slow). There's also perfect pivot Utilt which is good but hard to execute and then crap like Shadow Sneak and Dair that you shouldn't be using. In short, I understand that random SHADs in neutral aren't what make Marth good against him, but I wanted to make it clear that they are not free. You cannot just spam SHAD to approach Greninja.

Greninja slightly outranges Marth's Fair with his own Fair, Ftilt and Fsmash.

Marth's jab is good against us because our fall speed forces us to land when hit by it until really high percents, basically giving him free grabs at certain percents. Marth's jab can also true combo into tipper Utilt against us pretty reliably at kill percent, though it does NOT true combo into Fsmash (we can shield until we can double jump airdodge away) and I couldn't get it to true combo into Ftilt or Dtilt. Tipper jab can combo into itself (not for long though) and Utilt.

We can, however, Shadow Sneak out of Marth's jab's hitstun until it starts to put us in tumble hitstun, which doesn't happen until really high percents. So at kill percent, we can SS out of the jab and punish Marth if he actually goes for another attack. Marth has time to shield though, so it's a mixup, but it can still be pretty scary.

------------

SHAD as a reactive punish to shuriken. Let's say you react perfectly to shuriken's startup and start SHADing on frame 13 after a 12 frame reaction time. That won't happen due to controller lag, normal human reaction time being more than 12 frames and the fact that you simply aren't going to react to frame 1 of shuriken's animation, but whatever. So frame 13 is the input frame, and on frame 14 you begin your SHAD towards Greninja, which takes 37 frames to fully execute (5 frame jumpsquat, 32 frame airdodge). The SHAD ended on frame 50. It's now frame 51. Greninja finished his shuriken on frame 45 and already buffered an up angled Ftilt which will hit on frame 55.

Marth could buffer an Uair which starts on frame 51 and comes out on frame 55, so this will trade with Ftilt. To actually hit with the Uair, Marth would have to jump into Greninja. I don't know the exact frame data behind Marth's aerial inertia and deceleration, so I don't know whether he would be able to pull back after baiting our reaction, but I would imagine we could react to Marth drifting towards us in time and throw up our shield instead of Ftilt. If Marth crashes into our shield with any aerial buffered from a SHAD including Uair we get a free punish (jab I know works, grab and Dtilt probably do).

Marth could use Fair or Nair, but neither will come out until frame 56 and he will get hit with Ftilt if he doesn't pull back properly.

Remember if Marth tries to stay in the range where a perfectly spaced Fair or Nair will hit Greninja, Ftilt will catch him because it comes out slightly faster. So on reaction to Marth SHADing in, Greninja is better off using up angled Ftilt than shielding.

If Marth pulls back really early, he can hit Greninja's extended hurtbox with his disjointed Fair and be safe. But in this case, if Greninja doesn't use Ftilt (again I'm not sure if Greninja can react to the inertia to know what to do but it seems like he could) Marth just Fair'd nothing and will eat a guaranteed dash grab.

So my point is, Marth SHADing in on reaction to a shuriken toss does not result in any sort of guaranteed punish, it's actually quite a complex situation where either character could come out on top. Greninja is not shut down completely because his Ftilt both outranges Marth's Fair and will beat it out in a perfect reactionary scenario where Marth is still in the range where Fair could hit Greninja or his shield.

--------------

Regarding full hop retreating Fair. You have to be extremely close to actually hit our shield with a tippered full hop retreating Fair. As in, you have to be standing in or dash well inside our jab range. Not the safest thing to set up.

If you whiff slightly, we get a guaranteed full hop Fair OoS punish no matter how much you pull back.

If you hit with a non-tipper, we get a guaranteed full hop Fair OoS punish no matter how much you pull back.

If you tipper our shield you are safe from a guaranteed punish. However, it seems like Marth would be safe from pretty much every character in this situation? Unless I'm missing something/have misunderstood you completely?

Anyway, Greninja drops shield and dashes toward Marth. Marth can landing Fair while still retreating, but if Greninja keeps dashing he will go behind Marth and can pivot grab or Fsmash. Greninja could shield, and punish the Fair if it's inside tipper range. Marth could choose to not Fair and instead tomahawk grab our shield. Or Greninja could avoid the situation completely by using RAR rising full hop Bair against Marth as he was running toward him. You could also Fair, but it's a bit slower. Effectively because Greninja's dash speed is so fast, Marth doesn't get free spacing out of this scenario.

Incidentally, Mac also has a very fast dash speed and could probably use that to get close to Marth after this scenario. However he doesn't have the Fair punish or RAR Bair option that Greninja has.

If I have misunderstood you please let me know but I don't think this scenario costs us the MU or anything because we have decent options against it.

----------

Retreating SH Fair, landing or not, is safe on our shield if tippered. But again I must go back to, surely it's safe against every character? Greninja has a top 6 dash speed and a top 5 dash grab, if he can't get a guaranteed punish I don't think many cahracters could.

Overall, I feel like a lot of Marth's safety against Greninja can be applied to all but a select few MUs like Sonic and maybe Sheik and ZSS due to their down Bs. But this safety doesn't cost us the MU, it's something that a lot of characters have to deal with. Marth SHADing into our blind spot isn't a huge deal either, as we do have options to cover it and some of our options can actually outrange Marth.

I hope you found this analysis insightful?

 

[TTYK]

First things first - ZSS' jab does not combo into Up B against us even at 999%, we can shield long before it would combo. A frame perfect Utilt is harder to test but it doesn't look like that combos either.

Now, I've labbed a few scenarios and ideas Re. Marth.

First off I should mention that Greninja should never just be sitting in shield waiting to punish Marth, making himself free to Marth's spacing. He should never be sitting in shield ever. His OoS game is garbage, we know this. It's his other strengths that offset it (his OoS game is his last big weakness, too). I feel like this whole discussion has kind of ignored Greninja's superior mobility and ability to get in on Marth by using his speed, running into shield to get hit with a non-tipper that he CAN punish, simply darting around outside Marth's range, etc.

The moves Greninja has to hit his "blind spot" are up angled Ftilt (best/safest option), Bair (fine), Nair (fine), Fsmash (good when it hits but requires them to fall a bit low), dash forward sweetspot Usmash (slowish, but works), sourspot Usmash (slowish, but works) and Fair. There's also perfect pivot Utilt which is good but hard to execute and then crap like Shadow Sneak and Dair that you shouldn't be using. In short, I understand that random SHADs in neutral aren't what make Marth good against him, but I wanted to make it clear that they are not free. You cannot just spam SHAD to approach Greninja.

Greninja slightly outranges Marth's Fair with his own Fair, Ftilt and Fsmash.

Marth's jab is good against us because our fall speed forces us to land when hit by it until really high percents, basically giving him free grabs at certain percents. Marth's jab can also true combo into tipper Utilt against us pretty reliably at kill percent, though it does NOT true combo into Fsmash (we can shield) and I couldn't get it to true combo into Ftilt or Dtilt. Tipper jab can combo into itself (not for long though) and Utilt.

We can, however, Shadow Sneak out of Marth's jab's hitstun until it starts to put us in tumble hitstun, which doesn't happen until really high percents. So at kill percent, we can SS out of the jab and punish Marth if he actually goes for another attack. Marth has time to shield though, so it's a mixup, but it can still be pretty scary.

------------

SHAD as a reactive punish to shuriken. Let's say you react perfectly to shuriken's startup and start SHADing on frame 13 after a 12 frame reaction time. That won't happen due to controller lag and the fact that you aren't going to react to frame 1 of shuriken's animation but whatever. So frame 13 is the input frame, and on frame 14 you begin your SHAD towards Greninja, which takes 37 frames to fully execute (5 frame jumpsquat, 32 frame airdodge). It's now frame 51. Greninja finished his shuriken on frame 45 and started an up angled Ftilt which will hit on frame 55.

Marth could buffer an Uair which starts on frame 51 and comes out on frame 55, so this will trade with Ftilt. To actually hit with the Uair, Marth would have to jump into Greninja. I don't know the exact frame data behind Marth's aerial inertia and deceleration, so I don't know whether he would be able to pull back after baiting our reaction, but I would imagine we could react to Marth drifting towards us in time and throw up our shield instead of Ftilt. If Marth crashes into our shield with any aerial buffered from a SHAD including Uair we get a free punish (jab I know works, grab and Dtilt probably do).

Marth could use Fair or Nair, but neither will come out until frame 56 and he will get hit with Ftilt if he doesn't pull back properly.

Remember if Marth tries to stay in the range where a perfectly spaced Fair or Nair will hit Greninja, Ftilt will catch him because it comes out slightly faster. So on reaction to Marth SHADing in, Greninja is better off using up angled Ftilt.

If Marth pulls back really early, he can hit Greninja's extended hurtbox with his disjointed Fair and be safe. But in this case, if Greninja doesn't use Ftilt (again I'm not sure if Greninja can react to the inertia to know what to do but it seems like he could) Marth just Fair'd nothing and will eat a guaranteed dash grab.

So my point is, Marth SHADing in on reaction to a shuriken toss does not result in any sort of guaranteed punish, it's actually quite a complex situation where either character could come out on top. Greninja is not shut down completely because his Ftilt both outranges Marth's Fair and will beat it out in a perfect reactionary scenario where Marth is still in the range where Fair could hit Greninja or his shield.

--------------

Regarding full hop retreating Fair. You have to be extremely close to actually hit our shield with a tippered full hop retreating Fair. As in, you have to be standing in or dash well inside our jab range. Not the safest thing to set up.

If you whiff slightly, we get a guaranteed full hop Fair OoS punish no matter how much you pull back.

If you hit with a non-tipper, we get a guaranteed full hop Fair OoS punish no matter how much you pull back.

If you tipper our shield you are safe from a guaranteed punish. However, it seems like Marth would be safe from pretty much every character in this situation? Unless I'm missing something/have misunderstood you completely?

Anyway, Greninja drops shield and dashes toward Marth. Marth can landing Fair while still retreating, but if Greninja keeps dashing he will go behind Marth and can pivot grab or Fsmash. Greninja could shield, and punish the Fair if it's inside tipper range. Marth could choose to not Fair and instead tomahawk grab our shield. Or Greninja could avoid the situation completely by using RAR rising full hop Bair against Marth as he was running toward him. You could also Fair, but it's a bit slower. Effectively because Greninja's dash speed is so fast, Marth doesn't get free spacing out of this scenario.

Incidentally, Mac also has a very fast dash speed and could probably use that to get close to Marth after this scenario. However he doesn't have the Fair punish or RAR Bair option that Greninja has.

If I have misunderstood you please let me know but I don't think this scenario costs us the MU or anything because we have decent options against it.

----------

Retreating SH Fair, landing or not, is safe on our shield if tippered. But again I must go back to, surely it's safe against every character? Greninja has a top 6 dash speed and a top 5 dash grab, if he can't get a guaranteed punish I don't think many cahracters could.

Overall, I feel like a lot of Marth's safety against Greninja can be applied to all but a select few MUs like Sonic and maybe Sheik and ZSS due to their down Bs. But this safety doesn't cost us the MU, it's something that a lot of characters have to deal with. Marth SHADing into our blind spot isn't a huge deal either, as we do have options to cover it and some of our options can actually outrange Marth.

I hope you found this analysis insightful?

Damn, man I need a tl;dr. I am sure this analysis is insightful, but my ADHD cannot concentrate on it.

 

[bc1910]

Haha, this bit..

"Overall, I feel like a lot of Marth's safety against Greninja can be applied to all but a select few MUs like Sonic and maybe Sheik and ZSS due to their down Bs. But this safety doesn't cost us the MU, it's something that a lot of characters have to deal with. Marth SHADing into our blind spot isn't a huge deal either, as we do have options to cover it and some of our options can actually outrange Marth."

...is basically a tl;dr.

 

[TTYK]

Haha, this bit..

"Overall, I feel like a lot of Marth's safety against Greninja can be applied to all but a select few MUs like Sonic and maybe Sheik and ZSS due to their down Bs. But this safety doesn't cost us the MU, it's something that a lot of characters have to deal with. Marth SHADing into our blind spot isn't a huge deal either, as we do have options to cover it and some of our options can actually outrange Marth."

...is basically a tl;dr.

Ok thanks.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Guess I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'll put my 2 cents in here for Ike vs Greninja in case others want some info. For straight up odds, I'd give it a 50/50. When it comes to off stage, we both will struggle with deep recoveries against one another. We have to worry about Hydro pump, and you have to worry about Eruption. (We can abuse the 1 frame vulnerability when you go for the snap, and punish you if you try to go around with only human error preventing the KO) It's why a lot of good Ikes will avoid the deep against good gimpers unless we need a mix-up. For other recoveries, both of our side-b's can be Countered but our disjointed aerials do allow us to just knock you back into the deep if you try for Hydro Pump instead of an offensive recovery. (We can also more easily punish the landing since Hydro pump has a set length.)

On stage and in the neutral, you have the projectiles but we have the disjoint and kill power. Our disjoint will make it harder to attack an aware Ike that you've forced into the air with Shuriken, and the ending lag of Shuriken doesn't allow you to go for the dash-grab easily when we power shield it. A full charge Shuriken does make it harder to use our spot-dodges or Counter on the ground, but your more limited horizontal aerial movement makes you easier to combo off of throws if you fail to keep us from using our own dash options. Your U-air and D-air have the advantage when fighting in the air, so Ike players will look for ways to get to the side of you to attack from Diagonals for punishing any options you choose there.

I do find that in most of my battles Greninja's Counter is a double edges sword against us, since a good Greninja can angle the attack to allow great follow-ups but one miscalculation and some hard reading from an Ike with a disjointed f-air may send you out into the blast zone without a way to recover.

Let me know what you think.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's counter is pretty bad and probably shouldn't be hitting you unless you're throwing out really unsafe moves or go for a full jab combo while not expecting the counter.

I think Greninja vs Ike is 55:45 our favour. Ike is a good combo weight for us, he's easily camped out, Hydro Pump wrecks both of his recovery moves (Ike loses his stock any time Aether gets HP'd) and we can generally make it a chore for him to hit us. On the other hand, Ike's buffs have given him a good amount of safety in neutral and he can usually get a few pokes in between shurikens. Getting hit by Ike is pretty devastating because of the raw damage he deals, no matter what move. In my experience Uthrow Uair isn't real but small mistakes can still cost us the stock because Fair and Bair are both strong, Fair is easy to hit with and Bair is very fast.

This MU was a whitewash at the start of the game but got worse with our nerfs and Ike's buffs. It was probably even before the shuriken buff but after Ike's buffs and would have been worse than even if not for our edgeguarding allowing for kills at fraudulent percents. However with shurikens all but restored for camping purposes, and our edgeguarding still intact, we should take this MU.

Regarding ZSS vs Greninja, don't get fooled into thinking we can attack her shield because of her grab. What would be a grab from most characters will be an Up B from her, which can kill at high percents (not low percents since she hasn't dragged you to the top blastzone).

 

[BlazeFlipnotes]

I know greninja beats luigi but I still have trouble with the mu, luigi moves so slowly so I end up playing at his pace, I also don't know what do to against fire balls, a fully charged shuriken (destroys fireballs) leaves me open for a grab that deals 60%

 

[Ludiloco]

Don't play at his pace. Use your mobility to run circles around Luigi and camp him out with shurikens until he commits to something unsafe. Then, grab him and throw him up and watch the fireworks.

 

[Coffee™]

Regarding ZSS vs Greninja, don't get fooled into thinking we can attack her shield because of her grab. What would be a grab from most characters will be an Up B from her, which can kill at high percents (not low percents since she hasn't dragged you to the top blastzone).

Shadow Sneak > Boost Kick

all day....

 

[bc1910]

Still don't think we should rely on that until patching is over.

Not to mention it's inconsistent if your timing is even slightly off (though it's not HARD to time).

 

[Gunla]

Personal thoughts on most of the matchups. Will add more on if there's time.

• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• 55:45
  
• 60:40
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50 or 45:55
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 45:55
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• 55:45
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• 60:40
• (40:60)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (45:55)

 

[Illusion.]

Here are my thoughts:

• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
• 60:40
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 40:60
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50
  
• 60:40
  
• 55:45
  
• 55:45 or 50:50
  
• 55:45
  
• Not sure, never played a Mii Gunner
  
• Again, not sure since I've never played against this character

For Returning MUs.. two of the highest threats in the game, as well as one of the other controversial matchups:

• 40:60
  
• 50:50
  
• 50:50

 

[FullMoon]

Pikachu and Ness seem to be the most controversial MUs around here.

 

[TTYK]

Pikachu and Ness seem to be the most controversial MUs around here.

I dont like either of them. Too small. Too unpredictable. (Two extremely annoying taunts, I swear I want to choke them both to death.)

 

[Ludiloco]

I think we beat Ness. Even though he has good aerial mobility we really excel at juggling him. If you get into a boxing match with Ness up close you're going to get bodied, but because he's slow and doesn't have a good approach except for spacing fair and nair he gets zoned out pretty hard by shuriken. Offstage we have the clear advantage as he doesn't have many good ledge snap options and is incredibly susceptible to hydro pump. There are so many ways to mess with pk thunder 2, if you can tech it every time you can even get hit by it to shorten the distance and have Ness fall to his death. Incredibly risky though, unless you're up a stock then go ahead. When we're recovering PK thunder can be a bit of a pain but because we can afford to be patient with our recovery it's really your fault if you get gimped by it.

55:45 us in that matchup. Ness' backthrow and good combo game on us help even this up a little.

Pikachu I haven't played at a high level but I think we lose 45:55. It's not terrible because we have the mobility to keep up with Pikachu but he can get crazy strings on us and is small and hard to hit. Hydro pump isn't incredibly effective with how much he's able to mix up quick attack (quick attack in neutral really bodies us too), and his thunderjolt can make recovering a pain. Thunderjolt in general is just really annoying in this matchup because it basically nullifies anything but charged shuriken, which is a pretty bad option against such a quick and hard-to-hit target. The main thing we have going for us here is because Pika's main KO options aren't super hard to avoid we have pretty good survivability. I think this is similar to the sheik mu but a little more do-able because Pika isn't quite as safe. I believe Pikachu has the potential to be the best character in the game though, so it's hard to really say we should be winning this mu every time.

 

[Coffee™]

Still don't think we should rely on that until patching is over.

Not to mention it's inconsistent if your timing is even slightly off (though it's not HARD to time).

At this point I think its intentional. It fits his theme of "stealthy ninja" pretty well. Its also been one of the more publicized hitstun cancel techniques.

In addition The move itself has already been touched a number of times. I'm pretty sure it hasn't been just "overlooked" as a glitch they forgot to fix.

Also, even if it was going to be patched (which we aren't even sure of) we shouldn't simply ignore it on the off chance it could be. You didn't see pre-patch Diddys not using Uair or pre-patch Sonics not spamming Back Throw. If the character has tools......use em'

 

[Ludiloco]

I used shadow sneak to get out of boost kick a lot last night. Super helpful.

Now to get the timing down for shuttle loop

 

[bc1910]

Relying on a glitch is very different to relying on functional moves that may or may not get nerfed, for reasons I shouldn't need to explain. In short, the dev team are far more likely to fix glitches than do anything else to a game.

I concede that the glitch has not yet been fixed and at this point is fairly well known. Pure speculation, but I personally think they currently do not know how to fix this glitch. I think that this could be why they did not give Shadow Sneak invincibility frames anywhere, when it seems like the perfect move for invincibility frames, maybe at the start or when he reappears. If it had invincibility frames and cancelled hitstun, it would be crazy.

Probably not though because Substitute should also have invincibility frames when he reappears, and has no other broken attributes, but it doesn't have any invincibility frames.

I do not believe this glitch is intended and still do not recommend RELYING on it, though I do finally admit that we shouldn't avoid using it.

 

[warionumbah2]

The patch crew just takes long to patch obvious bs, metaknights sword trails took how long to patch? Way too long, his rco lag on cape also took long for them to fix.

It might get patched just like all the pacman glitches get patched, could easily say that it suits a wacky character like pac man. Dunno why metaknight is down as even when there was no discussion, pretty obvious you win the MU so long as shadow sneak hitstun cancel exists.

Metaknight uairs you? Mash side b. Tornado? Mash side b to reduce the damage. Kewt.

 

[Coffee™]

Relying on a glitch is very different to relying on functional moves that may or may not get nerfed, for reasons I shouldn't need to explain. In short, the dev team are far more likely to fix glitches than do anything else to a game.

I agree with this but we don't even know for sure if the dev team considers it a glitch at all. It's all speculation by us.

Imo it fits with the character's theme as well as the theme of the move itself. I'm going to just go with....it's intentional unless the devs decide otherwise.

Dunno why metaknight is down as even when there was no discussion, pretty obvious you win the MU so long as shadow sneak hitstun cancel exists.

Metaknight uairs you? Mash side b. Tornado? Mash side b to reduce the damage. Kewt.

I think it's 60:40 once you take Shadow Sneak into consideration. 55:45 without it.

 

[FullMoon]

The patch crew just takes long to patch obvious bs, metaknights sword trails took how long to patch? Way too long, his rco lag on cape also took long for them to fix.

It might get patched just like all the pacman glitches get patched, could easily say that it suits a wacky character like pac man. Dunno why metaknight is down as even when there was no discussion, pretty obvious you win the MU so long as shadow sneak hitstun cancel exists.

Metaknight uairs you? Mash side b. Tornado? Mash side b to reduce the damage. Kewt.

Actually I think they brought back one of Pac-Man's glitches in this patch lol. The one where the Hydrant falls through the floor.

I don't have much in the way of MK experience and probably won't have because lol wifi so I won't say much about the MU, but I don't think Shadow Sneak shuts down MK that much especially when it's still a pretty laggy move.

 

[bc1910]

As far as I know, Greninja cannot SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction to the move being used, it takes too long for him to actually disappear. He has to mash B to get out. So if read, you simply delay the SL and kill him when he reappears. It's an extra 50/50 that most chraracters don't have vs your kill combo but nothing more. Not a MU dealbreaker.

If he can SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction (I don't know the exact frame data of move startup + hitlag + move lag before second hit) then things are a little more bleak but from what I can tell, he can't do that.

I can't offer much insight on the MU other than that.

 

[FullMoon]

As far as I know, Greninja cannot SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction to the move being used, it takes too long for him to actually disappear. He has to mash B to get out. So if read, you simply delay the SL and kill him when he reappears. It's an extra 50/50 that most chraracters don't have vs your kill combo but nothing more. Not a MU dealbreaker.

If he can SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction (I don't know the exact frame data of move startup + hitlag + move lag before second hit) then things are a little more bleak but from what I can tell, he can't do that.

I can't offer much insight on the MU other than that.

Uh... If he delays the SL you can still just keep mashing and you can get out when he does use it anyway. It's not like being in endlag prevents you from using the hitstun cancel.

 

[bc1910]

I thought it went without saying that if Greninja keeps mashing SS he'll just land and/or keep suffering SS endlag which can obviously be punished hard.

You might be able to react and stop mashing before that happens but I'm not sure considering this game's huge buffer window. And if you stop mashing and guess wrong then MK just killed you.

As long as SL isn't reactable I'm not seeing how this alone lets us win the MU. Though describing it as a 50/50 was incorrect as you are right, if Greninja just mashes SS he'll never die to the combo. Could still take serious damage though.

 

[TheRealDonquavious]

When exactly do you have to press side b to avoid shuttle loop? Should I just mash when I see it coming?

 

[Codaption]

Offstage we have the clear advantage as he doesn't have many good ledge snap options and is incredibly susceptible to hydro pump. There are so many ways to mess with pk thunder 2, if you can tech it every time you can even get hit by it to shorten the distance and have Ness fall to his death. Incredibly risky though, unless you're up a stock then go ahead.

While he obviously has a tough time offstage here, I just want to point out that most Ness players won't rely on PK Thunder unless they literally have nothing left to do. The kid has a huge double jump, a long-lasting airdodge, and a solid set of aerials (all of which can kill barring Fair), so even if you get him offstage you still have to be smart about how you keep him there.

 

[Coffee™]

I don't have much in the way of MK experience and probably won't have because lol wifi so I won't say much about the MU, but I don't think Shadow Sneak shuts down MK that much especially when it's still a pretty laggy move.

It's definitely not a matchup breaker, but it is pretty useful overall in the matchup.

As far as I know, Greninja cannot SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction to the move being used, it takes too long for him to actually disappear. He has to mash B to get out. So if read, you simply delay the SL and kill him when he reappears. It's an extra 50/50 that most chraracters don't have vs your kill combo but nothing more. Not a MU dealbreaker.

If he can SS out of Shuttle Loop on reaction (I don't know the exact frame data of move startup + hitlag + move lag before second hit) then things are a little more bleak but from what I can tell, he can't do that.

I can't offer much insight on the MU other than that.

I was testing out Shuttle Loop vs Shadow Sneak for a few minutes last night. I’m not sure if it’s possible to SS out of a grounded Sloop. I never managed to get even the initial puff of smoke between the two hits.

I was able to do it with aerial Shuttle Loop in between both hits but I’m still pretty unsure on the timing for it. Didn’t get a chance to spend enough time with it.

As for reacting to Sloop, I honestly don’t think it’s necessary to have to react to it. Unless MK is throwing it out raw or on a read at kill percents they generally convert to Sloop from Uair, Dash Attack or Dthrow/Fthrow. As long as you can SS against either of these you’re probably safe from the Sloop string.

It’s harder to use SS out of his throws, but at higher percents Greninja can just DI away to avoid it. DI in is also a pretty good mixup as most MKs will dash immediately after the throw for the followup.

I wish we knew more about this aspect of SS in general. Like what frame is the cancel possible, is mashing B more useful than trying to go for a specific timing, Is there any data on this move that we aren’t really looking at in general…etc

Maybe @Lavani has some insight on this stuff? ^