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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

TheFirstPoppyBro

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My thoughts exactly. Heck, this and Smash Bros. are why I have such a deep fondness for retro/obscure/niche/'weirdo' characters in crossover games, as well as their own games. Heck, I'm a fan of folks like Jin Saotome, Captain Commando, Saki Omokane, Michelle Heart, SonSon and the like because of their appearances in these games.

With that said, I sincerely hope the next Smash Bros. returns to look at those characters as potential choices for playable characters.
This just reminds me of how if MvC4 had been more in line with 3 and not Infinite, I would've loved to have seen Zack and Wiki from Zack and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure in it as an obscure pick on the Capcom side. I still haven't even played it, I just think they would've been really funny to see alongside such big names, beating the hell out of Doom and Dormammu lol
 

Louie G.

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If they give him back Pikmin Chain
I miss this move actually. Functionally Winged Pikmin are a much stronger recovery move, but it’s just a recovery. I’m not super into attacks like that these days, I’d like a little extra function and Pikmin Chain does grant Olimar a little vertical poke coverage.

Pikmin Chain incentivizes Olimar to stay diligent and have Pikmin on him at all times, the kind of resource management that should be highlighted through the character. This recovery is more efficient if you DON’T have your most valuable resource on hand, which feels a bit strange when you compare. Olimar has always been a good character, even when he had Pikmin Chain, so frankly I don’t think having a weaker recovery is an issue for him and other characters (see: Icies, Robin) do rely on some resource management to utilize their recovery. It doesn’t feel out of place.

It’s also just IMO more creative, it feels like a nicer extension of the character and another unique way to command your army. Winged Pikmin allow us to represent another Pikmin type and that’s all well and good but it’s very much a “summon” move and I think I generally find it more satisfying when an attack organically flows off the character’s design / properties. So yeah, it pretty much relies on Olimar getting back more than three Pikmin, but if he does I hope we will see this return someday.
 
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Gorgonzales

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I miss this move actually. Functionally Winged Pikmin are a much stronger recovery move, but it’s just a recovery. I’m not super into attacks like that these days, I’d like a little extra function and Pikmin Chain does grant Olimar a little vertical poke coverage.

Pikmin Chain incentivizes Olimar to stay diligent and have Pikmin on him at all times, the kind of resource management that should be highlighted through the character. This recovery is more efficient if you DON’T have your most valuable resource on hand, which feels a bit strange when you compare. Olimar has always been a good character, even when he had Pikmin Chain, so frankly I don’t think having a weaker recovery is an issue for him and other characters (see: Icies, Robin) do rely on some resource management to utilize their recovery. It doesn’t feel out of place.

It’s also just IMO more creative, it feels like a nicer extension of the character and another unique way to command your army. Winged Pikmin allow us to represent another Pikmin type and that’s all well and good but it’s very much a “summon” move and I think I generally find it more satisfying when an attack organically flows off the character’s design / properties. So yeah, it pretty much relies on Olimar getting back more than three Pikmin, but if he does I hope we will see this return someday.
Even if Pikmin Chain never returns as an up special, I do think the concept of the move has a lot of merit (like you said). I can envision it being a long-reaching back-air that could grab ledges like Simon and Richter's whips.
 

Kirby Dragons

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I don't know if he's #1, but Kirby is one of the vets I want updated the most. He's my favorite character on the whole roster, but he's really unfun to play. Replacing all of his non-Inhale specials would be a start. I'm surprised he doesn't have a traditional projectile, and Hammer feels more like a smash attack than a special. He has such a wide variety of Copy Abilities, and his Smash moveset feels so limited by comparison. I think he could also use an air speed buff. It doesn't have to be as much as Jigglypuff, but it should be more than it is.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I don't think this is a huge sentiment, but I do want to say that I don't think Smash characters should be designed like Rivals of Aether characters. It'd be like saying Street Fighter characters should be designed like BlazBlue characters. Rivals of Aether has really cool and well thought out character designs, and seems to avoid having characters that feel odd and directionless, but there's merit to how Super Smash Bros. designs its characters as well, and it's not like we don't get really cool and well executed concepts either.

I dunno, just something that came to mind.

EDIT: That's also not to say that you shouldn't go with a concept because "it's too Rivals of Aetherey". It just shouldn't be the goal of all character designs for the series.

I miss this move actually. Functionally Winged Pikmin are a much stronger recovery move, but it’s just a recovery. I’m not super into attacks like that these days, I’d like a little extra function and Pikmin Chain does grant Olimar a little vertical poke coverage.

Pikmin Chain incentivizes Olimar to stay diligent and have Pikmin on him at all times, the kind of resource management that should be highlighted through the character. This recovery is more efficient if you DON’T have your most valuable resource on hand, which feels a bit strange when you compare. Olimar has always been a good character, even when he had Pikmin Chain, so frankly I don’t think having a weaker recovery is an issue for him and other characters (see: Icies, Robin) do rely on some resource management to utilize their recovery. It doesn’t feel out of place.

It’s also just IMO more creative, it feels like a nicer extension of the character and another unique way to command your army. Winged Pikmin allow us to represent another Pikmin type and that’s all well and good but it’s very much a “summon” move and I think I generally find it more satisfying when an attack organically flows off the character’s design / properties. So yeah, it pretty much relies on Olimar getting back more than three Pikmin, but if he does I hope we will see this return someday.
Yeah, even if they don't bring back Pikmin Chain, I'd like to see something with a similar effect like some sort of Pikmin powered rocket belt that sends you higher the more Pikmin you have. Kinda like Bomberman's up special in Super Smash Flash 2, but with the gimmick attached. In no way should throwing away your Pikmin potentially to their doom be incentivized.
 
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RykZyk

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Topic for debate that sometimes I think of:

In those cut in half roster discussion/videos, most of the time they say that Lucario and Greninja are unlikely to be removed in Smash because they're very popular Pokémon, despite their generations being from a long time ago.

What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Topic for debate that sometimes I think of:

In those cut in half roster discussion/videos, most of the time they say that Lucario and Greninja are unlikely to be removed in Smash because they're very popular Pokémon, despite their generations being from a long time ago.

What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
I think Greninja is pretty safe because of Legends ZA coming up soon and it being set in Kalos, so Greninja will almost certainly be somewhere in it, even if not prominently.

Could be the same story for Lucario based on Korrina having one and it being the first Pokemon you ever see Mega Evolve in XY, but we don't know much about ZA other than it being set in Kalos. Personally, I'd be okay with Lucario being a DLC vet and getting a bit of a rework, but I dunno how likely that is lol
 

RykZyk

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My thoughts exactly. Heck, this and Smash Bros. are why I have such a deep fondness for retro/obscure/niche/'weirdo' characters in crossover games, as well as their own games. Heck, I'm a fan of folks like Jin Saotome, Captain Commando, Saki Omokane, Michelle Heart, SonSon and the like because of their appearances in these games.

With that said, I sincerely hope the next Smash Bros. returns to look at those characters as potential choices for playable characters.
I really hope Goemon can make it in into a future Smash Bros. game. He's and interesting case of a character that in the west he's very niche and "weirdo", but in Japan he was really popular back then and he is a significant part of Konami and even Nintendo history.

Yes, even Nintendo acknowledges Goemon to be part of their history.
 

Gorgonzales

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I don't think this is a huge sentiment, but I do want to say that I don't think Smash characters should be designed like Rivals of Aether characters. It'd be like saying Street Fighter characters should be designed like BlazBlue characters. Rivals of Aether has really cool and well thought out character designs, and seems to avoid having characters that feel odd and directionless, but there's merit to how Super Smash Bros. designs its characters as well, and it's not like we don't get really cool and well executed concepts either.

I dunno, just something that came to mind.
Never said all Smash designs should be like Rivals; just thought a few could take notes. I singled out Inkling since she'd hypothetically play the most like a Rivals character, creating her own zones on the stage that enable her to do more things. The only other character I could see being Rivals-like is Steve, and he arguably already has a rivals-esque moveset the way his specials intuitively interact with one another.

Regardless, I think more moves having synergy with one another is something that only benefits everyone. Not every special move needs to function with the other special moves in unique ways (obviously), it would just open up more unique design opportunities where relevant. It's not even a concept unique to Rivals; Dedede can inhale his own Gordo and spit it out, Pac-Man can drop a fruit into his Hydrant's water to make it fly very far, Wario can eat his motorcycle to self-heal, etc.

The point I wanted to make was that Smash could really look at other platfighters and take notes. Just take notes; Smash doesn't have to change its core identity, I just think there's room for growth.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Topic for debate that sometimes I think of:

In those cut in half roster discussion/videos, most of the time they say that Lucario and Greninja are unlikely to be removed in Smash because they're very popular Pokémon, despite their generations being from a long time ago.

What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
I could see Greninja being removed but Lucario is a permanent addition. Lucario is a mascot of the entire Pokemon franchise now. He's Uber popular like Pikachu, Eevee and Charizard.
 

Louie G.

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What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
I think it would be "surprising" if these Pokemon were cut, since I consider them to be somewhere in the upper register of priority, but I don't think they are infallible. There's only one Pokemon that is 100% safe and that's Pikachu (maybe Charizard? I don't know if I would go quite that far) - Pokemon is absolutely the most hotly contested lineup on the roster and it isn't close, because depending on what angle you're looking at it from nearly every candidate is just as worthy of salvaging as the other. Except Pichu, sorry.

Lucario is one that I'm a little weird about because of his (in my opinion) pretty badly aged moveset and gimmick. But Lucario is also a present enough Pokemon to be worth heavily reworking, often deemed a secondary series mascot. And while I feel his star has dimmed ever so slightly in recent times, he is still wildly popular at large. This is kind of the divide I'm talking about though, I think there's something to be said about characters who are widely popular outside of Smash but notably unpopular in the confines of Smash itself. What can be said about someone like this? Which one becomes more valuable when weighing out whether to keep x over y? In this sense I think people slightly overestimate how much of a lock Lucario is.

Compared to say, Incineroar. Not that popular at large, is fairly popular in Smash and is quite a strong realization of his archetype. If we're prioritizing sheer gameplay variety within this big crop of characters, perhaps there's merit in having Incineroar over Lucario. If we're weighing out Pokemon on the whole, then there's really no contest - Lucario is one of the most popular Pokemon of all time, Incineroar is arguably not even the most popular starter in his generation (despite his rise within the competitive scene). So this is a weird balancing act that they're gonna have to pull off, and there are gonna be sad losses either way. I'm inclined to say in this hypothetical that Lucario may win out, but I don't know if it's as one sided as we'd first believe. At least for the sake of conversation I wish we discussed this kind of value to the roster and gameplay dynamics as much as we do the big picture of marketability.

Call it a gut feeling though, I am really confident in Greninja coming back. I guess just because of the Gen 6 stuff on the horizon, and the fact that I think he's one of the more fully realized Pokemon concepts in Smash. A nice sweetspot of external popularity and being a fun character within Smash itself, and is not too old where it still kind of strikes me as a good "contemporary" Pokemon ambassador. But ultimately not much else to say here aside from thinking the "vibes" are correct. I think Lucario will come back too but I unno, I like being a little more contrarian about it to spur the discussion.
 
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ninjahmos

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I guess I could see both Lucario and Greninja staying for the next game, since they're both popular Pokémon. Besides, at this point, Lucario may as well be a mainstay for Smash.
 
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BritishGuy54

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As time goes on, and recent info for games like Mario Party Jamboree and M&L Brothership was shadow dropped via social media, it makes me think the Switch 2 is going to also be shadow dropped sometime soon.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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As time goes on, and recent info for games like Mario Party Jamboree and M&L Brothership was shadow dropped via social media, it makes me think the Switch 2 is going to also be shadow dropped sometime soon.
They might suddenly drop the announcement of when they're gonna talk about it out of nowhere like the one tweet that said they'd show it before the end of fiscal year, but I can't see Nintendo just straight up shadow dropping the highly-sought-after information on their newest console coming out next year lmao
 

Kirby Dragons

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Never said all Smash designs should be like Rivals; just thought a few could take notes. I singled out Inkling since she'd hypothetically play the most like a Rivals character, creating her own zones on the stage that enable her to do more things. The only other character I could see being Rivals-like is Steve, and he arguably already has a rivals-esque moveset the way his specials intuitively interact with one another.

Regardless, I think more moves having synergy with one another is something that only benefits everyone. Not every special move needs to function with the other special moves in unique ways (obviously), it would just open up more unique design opportunities where relevant. It's not even a concept unique to Rivals; Dedede can inhale his own Gordo and spit it out, Pac-Man can drop a fruit into his Hydrant's water to make it fly very far, Wario can eat his motorcycle to self-heal, etc.

The point I wanted to make was that Smash could really look at other platfighters and take notes. Just take notes; Smash doesn't have to change its core identity, I just think there's room for growth.
That's something I actually like about Multiversus movesets; a lot of them have moves that interact with each other. Like Gizmo's popcorn, arrow, and music all having synergy, or Tom being able to split his dynamite by hitting it with his racket.
 

Hypercat-Z

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I guess I could see both Lucario and Greninja staying for the next game, since they're both popular Pokémon. Besides, at this point, Lucario may as well be a mainstay for Smash.
If Meowscarada is one of the next Pokemon I'm pretty sure both Incineroar and Greninja will stay, just to have a starter for both fire, water and grass type.
As for Lucario... I hope so but I'm not sure. I think it all depends on how popular the next pokemon are gonna be.
 

Hypercat-Z

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I really hope Goemon can make it in into a future Smash Bros. game. He's and interesting case of a character that in the west he's very niche and "weirdo", but in Japan he was really popular back then and he is a significant part of Konami and even Nintendo history.

Yes, even Nintendo acknowledges Goemon to be part of their history.
Wow! Slime is as big as Mario in that picture. If I'm not wrong Nintendo cosidered it already as a potential fighter. If THAT is the consideration Nintendo has for Slime I'm enough sure he could join the roster in the next Smash.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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If Meowscarada is one of the next Pokemon I'm pretty sure both Incineroar and Greninja will stay, just to have a starter for both fire, water and grass type.
I mean you could also just do this by bringing back Pokemon Trainer, which I feel like will happen lol
 

Louie G.

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Alright so since I gave my more objective assessment before I'll be more subjective now.

Lucario kinda feels like dead weight right now, if I'm gonna be as blunt as possible. The discussion around him is never about how fresh and unique and fun he is, what he's actually providing to the game, it's mostly about how obligatory he is. I mostly get that for series that are less fruitful as it stands - like alright, Isabelle is technically not reinventing the wheel but you kinda gotta have her here, Animal Crossing doesn't have a lot to begin with - but Pokemon has like 10 characters in Smash and so many of them are bold, colorful, exciting additions that bring something extremely dynamic and cool to the table. And then you have Lucario, who apparently needs to be here and feels like a relic.

I want Lucario here if they can refresh him in a way that feels meaningful. He has loads of potential that could make him very fun and flashy. What I don't want is Lucario's awkward current moveset to come back just because it has to, when Pokemon has since delivered on much more intuitive and creative characters who are technically lower down the food chain but are offering so much more to this game dynamically. Ask the average player if they want Lucario or Incineroar back, based on who they enjoy playing more, and I'm confident that the majority vote will not be Lucario.

This is contrasted with characters I consider major additions who may have flawed designs, but are massively popular. This isn't me saying that Ganondorf, Sonic, Little Mac ought to be cut. Because despite everything, a LOT of people actually like playing these characters, and honestly I think they are filling more distinct valuable archetypes despite it all. Lucario, and another character I want to touch on, are characters who are massively important on paper but I think struggle to find a meaningful roster niche.

The other character is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is everywhere, I cannot stress this enough - one of the biggest Nintendo characters to debut in the 2000s, and he is in pretty much every Mario game nowadays. He is far more frequently prominent within the Mario brand compared to Rosalina, another secondary pick for the series in Smash. Mario, like Pokemon, has a huge crop of characters likely to be scaled down. Both of these characters are somewhat unpopular to play in Smash, but between the two I think its obvious that Rosalina provides the more distinct gameplay hook through her puppet oriented gameplay. Bowser Jr feels more derivative and maybe not all there. And people seem willing to address this, Rosalina is often prioritized over him in heavier cut scenarios largely for this reason. Meanwhile Bowser Jr is, inarguably, one of the modern series mascots present across the span of games, multimedia projects such as the amusement park and so forth. If we were to apply the same toward Lucario, and cut him in favor of keeping Incineroar or Jigglypuff, what makes that especially egregious in contrast?

But still I think many people believe both Rosalina and Bowser Jr still have a place in Smash moving forward, and I have the same sentiment toward Lucario. I think as long as we have at least 7 or so Pokemon he'll probably be a part of it. Again, I'm open to them doing something new with Lucario, and I'll gladly welcome him back if that happens, but I have my doubts about it depending on how much roster space is provided. And if he comes back largely unaltered then... I don't know, he'll be one of the least popular characters again. Just my two cents.
 
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Pupp135

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Topic for debate that sometimes I think of:

In those cut in half roster discussion/videos, most of the time they say that Lucario and Greninja are unlikely to be removed in Smash because they're very popular Pokémon, despite their generations being from a long time ago.

What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
Pokemon is honestly the weirdest franchise to gauge on in terms of cuts. At the moment, my guess for Lucario is that it’s a very probable return given that it’s the most marketed post-Kanto pokemon, and its promotion to a starter fighter in For could indicate that it is seen as a valuable addition/mainstay.

I’m on the fence with Greninja given that we don’t know how many cuts there will be, and it really depends on how the developers prioritize fighters. In terms of Pokemon, I could see Mewtwo being priroitzed over Greninja even if it may lead to a Kanto-heavy roster (I think most would agree that Pikachu and Charizard/Pokemon Trainer are also returning, and Jigglypuff can squeak by like in Brawl/For) as Mewtwo was a highly requested fighter going into For. Even outside of Pokemon, there may be a large amount of competition for resources where I could see Greninja compete with fighters like Palutena, Bowser Jr., and maybe one or two of the non-Mr. Game & Watch oddball picks (i.e. Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt).
 
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dream1ng

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Topic for debate that sometimes I think of:

In those cut in half roster discussion/videos, most of the time they say that Lucario and Greninja are unlikely to be removed in Smash because they're very popular Pokémon, despite their generations being from a long time ago.

What do you think? Personally, i'd say that if they were capable of removing Mewtwo despite being one of the most popular Pokémon to ever exist, i think that it wouldn't be surprising if Lucario and Greninja don't make a comeback in Smash 6.
Unlike most people, I don't think Lucario and Greninja are safe. However, I think cuts would have to go very very deep for either to be touched, or they prioritize Pokemon much differently than we are expecting, like if they opt to retain Jigglypuff and Squirtle and Ivysaur (and Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Charizard) and in the process maybe Greninja gets cut, though I find that fairly unlikely.

I just think Pokemon has enough other more expendable options to cut that two characters of such high general popularity within the Pokemon series wouldn't need to be touched. I know Mewtwo was cut, but now I believe there to be far more fodder to axe when they start getting to the original characters than they had back during Brawl.

On top of that, if DLC had existed then, like it does now, where they can return to partially completed characters, Mewtwo probably would've been the first one brought back.

Also if it comes to pass that, due to timing not really lining up for Gen 9/10 and Smash, the Pokemon newcomer is instead made DLC (which is another debate), that would mitigate a newcomer pushing vets down the priority list for base, and potentially help retain more of them.

The biggest official Pokemon poll in recent memory is the 2020 Pokemon Of The Year vote. Lucario got second place, and Greninja won the damn thing. I think both of 'em have a pretty solid foundation.

That said the third highest on the poll (Mimikyu) isn't even a fighter so who knows :drshrug:
Didn't Dedenne win the one after Greninja? I know Greninja's was bigger, but... I don't think it was the last official one.

As time goes on, and recent info for games like Mario Party Jamboree and M&L Brothership was shadow dropped via social media, it makes me think the Switch 2 is going to also be shadow dropped sometime soon.
There is a world of difference between info for late-stage spin-offs and Nintendo's primary product for the better part of the next decade. They need time to promote that thing, and work with retailers to get ready.

No one wants another Sega Saturn fiasco on their hands of just shadowdropping a whole ass console.

If Meowscarada is one of the next Pokemon I'm pretty sure both Incineroar and Greninja will stay, just to have a starter for both fire, water and grass type.
As for Lucario... I hope so but I'm not sure. I think it all depends on how popular the next pokemon are gonna be.
I don't think that matters to them as much as you'd think. I know Ivysaur is there, but if the trio really was that important, Sakurai could've just picked the other character he was considering, Decidueye, and then they'd have had one of each for the final forms.

Plus, whether or not Squirtle and Ivysaur stick around, Charizard almost certainly will.
 

Guynamednelson

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No one wants another Sega Saturn fiasco on their hands of just shadowdropping a whole ass console.
I think he means just the reveal of the console will be shadowdropped, they won't force retailers to deal with a sudden shipment of Switch 2s.

Shadowdropping a reveal is something they already did with the OG Switch, and it turned out well for them now didn't it?
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Alright so since I gave my more objective assessment before I'll be more subjective now.

Lucario kinda feels like dead weight right now, if I'm gonna be as blunt as possible. The discussion around him is never about how fresh and unique and fun he is, what he's actually providing to the game, it's mostly about how obligatory he is. I mostly get that for series that are less fruitful as it stands - like alright, Isabelle is technically not reinventing the wheel but you kinda gotta have her here, Animal Crossing doesn't have a lot to begin with - but Pokemon has like 10 characters in Smash and so many of them are bold, colorful, exciting additions that bring something extremely dynamic and cool to the table. And then you have Lucario, who apparently needs to be here and feels like a relic.

I want Lucario here if they can refresh him in a way that feels meaningful. He has loads of potential that could make him very fun and flashy. What I don't want is Lucario's awkward current moveset to come back just because it has to, when Pokemon has since delivered on much more intuitive and creative characters who are technically lower down the food chain but are offering so much more to this game dynamically. Ask the average player if they want Lucario or Incineroar back, based on who they enjoy playing more, and I'm confident that the majority vote will not be Lucario.

This is contrasted with characters I consider major additions who may have flawed designs, but are massively popular. This isn't me saying that Ganondorf, Sonic, Little Mac ought to be cut. Because despite everything, a LOT of people actually like playing these characters, and honestly I think they are filling more distinct valuable archetypes despite it all. Lucario, and another character I want to touch on, are characters who are massively important on paper but I think struggle to find a meaningful roster niche.

The other character is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is everywhere, I cannot stress this enough - one of the biggest Nintendo characters to debut in the 2000s, and he is in pretty much every Mario game nowadays. He is far more frequently prominent within the Mario brand compared to Rosalina, another secondary pick for the series in Smash. Mario, like Pokemon, has a huge crop of characters likely to be scaled down. Both of these characters are somewhat unpopular to play in Smash, but between the two I think its obvious that Rosalina provides the more distinct gameplay hook through her puppet oriented gameplay. Bowser Jr feels more derivative and maybe not all there. And people seem willing to address this, Rosalina is often prioritized over him in heavier cut scenarios despite the fact largely for this reason. Meanwhile Bowser Jr is, inarguably, one of the modern series mascots present across the span of games, multimedia projects such as the amusement park and so forth. If we were to apply the same toward Lucario, and cut him in favor of keeping Incineroar or Jigglypuff, what makes that especially egregious in contrast?

But still I think many people believe both Rosalina and Bowser Jr still have a place in Smash moving forward, and I have the same sentiment toward Lucario. I think as long as we have at least 7 or so Pokemon he'll probably be a part of it. Again, I'm open to them doing something new with Lucario, and I'll gladly welcome him back if that happens, but I have my doubts about it depending on how much roster space is provided. And if he comes back largely unaltered then... I don't know, he'll be one of the least popular characters again. Just my two cents.
I agree with pretty much all of this, but I just wanted to mention I actually have fun playing Bowser Jr. while I pretty much never touch Lucario, and Lucario is pretty much the only Pokemon character I never touch in any game unless I have to like Classic Mode, which I feel like says a lot when Bowser Jr. was literally the staff rushing to fit him into Smash 4 in time with the only alternative being him not making it at all lol
 

Wunderwaft

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I want Lucario to be cut specifically because there's a higher chance his moveset can be reworked in dlc than in the base game. Blud has one of the most uninspired boring movesets and it pisses me off whenever I see how he plays in Smash considering he's one of my favorite pokemon.
 

dream1ng

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I think he means just the reveal of the console will be shadowdropped, they won't force retailers to deal with a sudden shipment of Switch 2s.
Well that's certainly more likely, but still counterproductive to such an important product. Though I know he was saying this, not you.

That said, in classic Nintendo fashion, I'd be surprised to get more than maybe two days warning. Maybe just one day. Especially since they're clearly not on Plan A for revealing this thing. Or Plan B. Who knows what plan they're on at this point.
 

Louie G.

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I agree with pretty much all of this, but I just wanted to mention I actually have fun playing Bowser Jr. while I pretty much never touch Lucario, and Lucario is pretty much the only Pokemon character I never touch in any game unless I have to like Classic Mode, which I feel like says a lot when Bowser Jr. was literally the staff rushing to fit him into Smash 4 in time with the only alternative being him not making it at all lol
I also like Bowser Jr, I enjoy playing him far more than both Lucario and Rosalina. With respect to Lucario, I'm sure there are many people who still enjoy him too. But I felt like it was a fair parallel for a character who felt like they aren't all there and are demonstrably less popular to pick up and play, Bowser Jr has consistently felt a little undercooked albeit still fun for me because I enjoy his archetype. As someone who likes playing Dedede or K. Rool it's not such a far reach over into another zany stage trap character... so with him I was trying to speak as fairly as possible, I still think he has a lot of room to grow.

Essentially I just thought he'd be an interesting parallel, because I think it's hard to honestly say Lucario is in a distinctly better spot in his series than Bowser Jr has been over the last few years (both are doing just fine), both are among the lesser played characters in their respective lineups, yet he is argued as an unshakeable must for the roster and Bowser Jr is not. I guess because Bowser Jr almost didn't make it a whopping ten years ago, lol.
 
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Hypercat-Z

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Bowser Jr. is one of the most creative characters in the game IMHO. I hope they will keep him and eventually add more alt characters if the number of alts for each fighter is going to be increased, as I guess it's gonna happen.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I actually enjoy playing Lucario and Bowser Jr. a lot.

I think Lucario should be reworked but I'd honestly be fine if they were the same.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Essentially I just thought he'd be an interesting parallel, because I think it's hard to honestly say Lucario is in a distinctly better spot in his series than Bowser Jr has been over the last few years (both are doing just fine), both are among the lesser played characters in their respective lineups, yet he is argued as an unshakeable must for the roster and Bowser Jr is not. I guess because Bowser Jr almost didn't make it a whopping ten years ago, lol.
Yeah, I feel this. I use precedent sometimes as like "I could see this happening but don't know if it will" but honestly I don't think Bowser Jr. is at any risk of going anywhere. He keeps showing up in more and more games as time goes on and even recently between Mario Wonder, Super Mario Party Jamboree, Mario & Luigi Brothership (this one it even looks like he has something going on narratively considering he has a talk with Kamek about true allies being with you for life), I really can't see him going anywhere.

Then again I think the only Mario character that might be at risk is realistically Plant. Maybe Doc, but he's surprisingly resilient if Smash 4 is any indication lol
 

Louie G.

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Yeah, I feel this. I use precedent sometimes as like "I could see this happening but don't know if it will" but honestly I don't think Bowser Jr. is at any risk of going anywhere. He keeps showing up in more and more games as time goes on and even recently between Mario Wonder, Super Mario Party Jamboree, Mario & Luigi Brothership (this one it even looks like he has something going on narratively considering he has a talk with Kamek about true allies being with you for life), I really can't see him going anywhere.

Then again I think the only Mario character that might be at risk is realistically Plant. Maybe Doc, but he's surprisingly resilient if Smash 4 is any indication lol
Well, to be consistent about it, I can see a more drastic scenario where we lose Bowser Jr if that gameplay essence is prioritized over simple series relevance and/or attendance. I think in a more "normal" scenario Pokemon and Mario can lose like two characters each and come out the other side just fine. Neither of those characters need to be, and likely wouldn't be Bowser Jr or Lucario. But depending on where they want to go from that point forward, if they do in fact want to maybe prioritize bringing all the first party series back or make more space for newcomers etc, I think Bowser Jr becomes more of a question mark and frankly I don't think it's unreasonable to cast a similar judgement toward Lucario for largely the same reasons.

How much are we willing to sacrifice for the sake of the new? Most Smash games haven't needed to give away much, we're at the point where we might have to. So even some really important (supporting, mostly) characters probably ought to be judged through a big microscope and not treated as an absolute lock.
 
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dream1ng

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Alright so since I gave my more objective assessment before I'll be more subjective now.

Lucario kinda feels like dead weight right now, if I'm gonna be as blunt as possible. The discussion around him is never about how fresh and unique and fun he is, what he's actually providing to the game, it's mostly about how obligatory he is. I mostly get that for series that are less fruitful as it stands - like alright, Isabelle is technically not reinventing the wheel but you kinda gotta have her here, Animal Crossing doesn't have a lot to begin with - but Pokemon has like 10 characters in Smash and so many of them are bold, colorful, exciting additions that bring something extremely dynamic and cool to the table. And then you have Lucario, who apparently needs to be here and feels like a relic.

I want Lucario here if they can refresh him in a way that feels meaningful. He has loads of potential that could make him very fun and flashy. What I don't want is Lucario's awkward current moveset to come back just because it has to, when Pokemon has since delivered on much more intuitive and creative characters who are technically lower down the food chain but are offering so much more to this game dynamically. Ask the average player if they want Lucario or Incineroar back, based on who they enjoy playing more, and I'm confident that the majority vote will not be Lucario.
I agree that Lucario's moveset is pretty whatever. And I would love for Lucario to get a bit of a rework. The rage mechanic basically took his hook. And, I'm not saying he replaced Mewtwo, and I'm not saying they play they same, but thematically they have some similarities, as well as a few very surface similarities in a couple moves, so in Brawl, when Mewtwo wasn't there, it did help Lucario stand out more.

Having said that, I don't think those problems will affect his priority much. I think being Lucario (and to a lesser but still present extent, seniority) will keep him from being in proximity of the chopping block, unless we lose... really significant chunks of the roster.

As for your point in asking who people enjoy playing more between Incineroar and Lucario, I agree. But I wouldn't be surprised if, in spite of that, when asked who people (the general audience, not people as diehard as us or competitive players) would rather retain, Lucario wins. Because for people who really care about and use Incineroar, that's one thing, but I think familiarity and general popularity is a powerful thing, more so than being more fun to play.

This is contrasted with characters I consider major additions who may have flawed designs, but are massively popular. This isn't me saying that Ganondorf, Sonic, Little Mac ought to be cut. Because despite everything, a LOT of people actually like playing these characters, and honestly I think they are filling more distinct valuable archetypes despite it all. Lucario, and another character I want to touch on, are characters who are massively important on paper but I think struggle to find a meaningful roster niche.
I actually think they might take this opportunity to give Ganondorf a proper full rework, since TotK Ganondorf is a thing and as popular as he is. My fear, however, is they do this instead of giving Zelda an actual newcomer, but... I guess something is better than the usual nothing.

Sonic and Little Mac sadly I don't see getting too many changes (maybe Little Mac is tweaked just to be slightly more viable), but what I can see is getting a Sonic clone who alters the moveset to some extent, so there's just... a bit of a rework... even if Sonic doesn't get it. Probably Shadow if the moveset doesn't change that much, but if they're willing to make bigger changes more akin to a semi-clone, possibly Tails or Knuckles.

The other character is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr is everywhere, I cannot stress this enough - one of the biggest Nintendo characters to debut in the 2000s, and he is in pretty much every Mario game nowadays. He is far more frequently prominent within the Mario brand compared to Rosalina, another secondary pick for the series in Smash. Mario, like Pokemon, has a huge crop of characters likely to be scaled down. Both of these characters are somewhat unpopular to play in Smash, but between the two I think its obvious that Rosalina provides the more distinct gameplay hook through her puppet oriented gameplay. Bowser Jr feels more derivative and maybe not all there. And people seem willing to address this, Rosalina is often prioritized over him in heavier cut scenarios largely for this reason. Meanwhile Bowser Jr is, inarguably, one of the modern series mascots present across the span of games, multimedia projects such as the amusement park and so forth. If we were to apply the same toward Lucario, and cut him in favor of keeping Incineroar or Jigglypuff, what makes that especially egregious in contrast?

But still I think many people believe both Rosalina and Bowser Jr still have a place in Smash moving forward, and I have the same sentiment toward Lucario. I think as long as we have at least 7 or so Pokemon he'll probably be a part of it. Again, I'm open to them doing something new with Lucario, and I'll gladly welcome him back if that happens, but I have my doubts about it depending on how much roster space is provided. And if he comes back largely unaltered then... I don't know, he'll be one of the least popular characters again. Just my two cents.
Yeah, I actually think we're much likelier to lose Bowser Jr than Lucario. Rosalina too, tbh. Obv I think PP and Doc are likeliest to be cut, but then I think it might be Jr. It could be Daisy, but I think she'll stick around. Not due to being a clone (though that helps), but due to her increasing prevalence in the series.

Meanwhile, despite his uniqueness, Jr seems to be lower priority in the Mario series, and I do think them getting more than two cuts is entirely plausible. I'll be real, I can even see both him and Rosalina being cut. To qualify that, I think losing one is likelier than both, but I don't think either is safe.

With Pokemon, I just think Lucario has a much better buffer, where Incineroar, Pichu, and probably Squirtle, Ivysaur, maybe Jigglypuff, and potentially even Greninja would be before him.
 

ninjahmos

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Lucario could definitely use a rework. His moveset is a little bit janky by today's standards, especially his Final Smash.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Well, to be consistent about it, I can see a more drastic scenario where we lose Bowser Jr if that gameplay essence is prioritized over simple series relevance and/or attendance. I think in a more "normal" scenario Pokemon and Mario can lose like two characters each and come out the other side just fine. Neither of those characters need to be, and likely wouldn't be Bowser Jr or Lucario. But depending on where they want to go from that point forward, if they do in fact want to maybe prioritize bringing all the first party series back or make more space for newcomers etc, I think Bowser Jr becomes more of a question mark and frankly I don't think it's unreasonable to cast a similar judgement toward Lucario for largely the same reasons.

How much are we willing to sacrifice for the sake of the new? Most Smash games haven't needed to give away much, we're at the point where we might have to. So even some really important (supporting, mostly) characters probably ought to be judged through a big microscope and not treated as an absolute lock.
That's true.

I feel like Bowser Jr. and Lucario are in a more fortunate position where they would almost certainly come back as DLC vets anyway though, so even if this does have to happen, I wouldn't be too worried about them I don't think, though it obviously depends on how many vets come back as DLC lol
 

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Honestly I don't think Lucario's moveset is the main problem here.

I think its the animations he has. They just feel limp. If his animations had more oomph and flow, I think people would like him a lot more.
 

ScrubReborn

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They could fix Lucario easy by giving him a femboy alt
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the Lucario question is in part this thing right here:

lucario brawl.jpg


More specific, Brawl Lucario. There was nothing wrong with this character. It was only when Smash 4 decided to minimax him that he became unbearable. Then when they tried to "fix him" in Ultimate they half-assed it and now he's just a boring fleabag that is still overly dependent on aura yet still feels whelming with it. The moveset has never been the problem, it's what they've done with it.

ATP Lucario's current foundation is broken beyond repair. Hard reset him to Brawlcario as a starting point and work on him more from there.

Essentially I just thought he'd be an interesting parallel, because I think it's hard to honestly say Lucario is in a distinctly better spot in his series than Bowser Jr has been over the last few years (both are doing just fine), both are among the lesser played characters in their respective lineups, yet he is argued as an unshakeable must for the roster and Bowser Jr is not. I guess because Bowser Jr almost didn't make it a whopping ten years ago, lol.
I feel it's more, even ignoring anything gameplay, there's less characters in Mario that could reasonably take the fall before Junior compared to Lucario. There's Plant for a definite "yeah" and Rosalina as a "maybe" and then no one else (I guess Dr. Mario and Daisy, but clones are not in normal fighter conversations so idk), while there's like four non-clone pokemans you could reasonably argue would take a hit before Lucario, plus Mewtwo/Greninja as "maybes".

So I imagine that makes it a lot easier to snipe at the fact nobody plays Junior.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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They could fix Lucario easy by giving him a femboy alt
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The answer to the Lucario question is in part this thing right here:

View attachment 395125

More specific, Brawl Lucario. There was nothing wrong with this character. It was only when Smash 4 decided to minimax him that he became unbearable. Then when they tried to "fix him" in Ultimate they half-assed it and now he's just a boring fleabag that is still overly dependent on aura yet still feels whelming with it.

ATP Lucario's current foundation is broken beyond repair. Hard reset him to Brawlcario as a starting point and work on him more from there.
I agree that Lucario is worse now that Aura stacks with rage (makes him annoying to fight against as well as boring as sin to play as), but tbh I thought he was a "boring fleabag" as you put it back in Brawl too lmao

His moveset has always felt super limp to me, and maybe some oomph to his animations like Swamp said would help, but I just hate how Lucario feels on a fundamental level, always have.
 
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dream1ng

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Yeah, I feel this. I use precedent sometimes as like "I could see this happening but don't know if it will" but honestly I don't think Bowser Jr. is at any risk of going anywhere. He keeps showing up in more and more games as time goes on and even recently between Mario Wonder, Super Mario Party Jamboree, Mario & Luigi Brothership (this one it even looks like he has something going on narratively considering he has a talk with Kamek about true allies being with you for life), I really can't see him going anywhere.

Then again I think the only Mario character that might be at risk is realistically Plant. Maybe Doc, but he's surprisingly resilient if Smash 4 is any indication lol
I think creating a roster that's halfway realistic in terms of how many characters we can actually get when they start making cuts without cutting more than one, two, even three or more Mario characters renders the scenario of minimal loss unrealistic, tbh.

It's easy to look at the Mario series and see how basically all of them are well qualified to be there (esp once you get past PP and Doc), but the actual perspective is going to be who gets priority in the face of time and resources forcing more than a handful of cuts.

That's when the question shifts from "do they merit inclusion?" (which obv basically all of them do) to "would they be higher priority than x?".
 
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Louie G.

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With Pokemon, I just think Lucario has a much better buffer, where Incineroar, Pichu, and probably Squirtle, Ivysaur, maybe Jigglypuff, and potentially even Greninja would be before him.
I agree, which is mostly just what I'm upset about. Because several of these Pokemon are more well defined, fun, popular characters to play and Lucario kinda just coasts by out of obligation. Frankly, I even feel similarly about solo-Zard, but that's a whole other conversation.

Mind that my wall of text was moreso to explain my personal dissatisfaction with Lucario's role in the series and speculation, and less so a statement on how likely I believe him to be (the answer to that is like... 70-75% maybe?). I do want to push back against those saying that he is a certain lock, because inherently Pokemon lacks the kind of consistency that something like Mario does. It really wouldn't be the end of the world if one of them had to sit out a game, or come back as DLC later. Incineroar on the other hand - he just got here, he's a near perfect design and distinct archetype that I'd rather not lose. But if we're simply judging off series relevance and not Smash implementation, he's an obvious loss in comparison which is very sad.

So I'd personally wish we would hold onto those with stronger dynamic moveset design over ones that are fundamentally flawed / defunct (er, IMO I guess) or decidedly unpopular and may or may not be able to have the necessary time designated toward fixing them. If we got more consistent character fixes I would simply be advocating for Lucario to get those, but it's been three games and he hasn't changed that much. Just gotten worse as Scrub pointed out, likely due to the addition of rage giving every single character "aura". I dunno, at least give him Bone Rush.
 
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