Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hypercat-Z]

Whats an Appearance of a character you want in Smash?
Just like i want toy link as a look for toon link!
Is there anything? Maybe some of your want dread or returns samus or Wonder Mario!

Monster Truck Pilot Mario and Luigi
Cowboy Fox, Falco and Wolf (it was in the plans)
Tigle Suit Link
Ms. Pacman
Evil Ryu

 

[NintenRob]

I do hope that the next Smash Bros game has a plethora of new stages for most of its franchises. Forgotten Land and Metroid Dread especially feel like they're begging to have a stage in Smash Bros.

 

[dream1ng]

I mean all you have to do is put her in Smash Bros and she'll have 5 times more popularity. And that's not even taking into account the characters who's Smash appearance practically became the reason for their popularity, like LttP Zelda, Wii Fit Trainer, Mr. Game & Watch and Ice Climbers.

Like sure, we definitely need to take things like popularity, recency and whatnot when taking into account how characters get into Smash Bros. They are factors that do matter because Sakurai does take them into account. But we definitely need to acknowledge that a good chunk of the characters in Smash have the amount of popularity they have now because of Smash Bros and it's giant fanbase.
Characters like Samus, Ness, Lucas, Captain Falcon, Wii Fit Trainer, Ice Climbers, A Link to the Past Zelda and whatnot would not have the popularity they have today without Smash Bros.

Right... but if she got into Smash she'd have enough popularity to get into Smash is... well, it's backwards, isn't it.

If I had this job my resume would be good enough to get this job. But if your resume falls short, you're not going to get the job in the first place.

Those characters you mention who may not have had the popularity had something else which got them in, which Elma lacks. Most are the main representative of their series, some just had better timing.


Also I think Samus would still be quite popular even without Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You could say that about a lot of candidates, though, unless they're someone hypercasuals already know like say Toad.

I just said I think Elma has popularity, but probably not enough of it to make her seem like a better candidate than others, given that her sole prominent appearance is in XBCX. She just barely made top 50 it looks like in Swamp's poll, which is consistent with that argument. And I don't really see any other obvious separators beyond "got a recent port and has decently strong popularity, relatively speaking."

The context of the discussion was just whether the XBCX port and her popularity would be enough to make her a viable candidate. What would happen to her popularity should she make it is not relevant.

I think it's worth noting that even without the momentum of a port, she did score third place among Xenoblade characters.

I'd say she's among the most popular Xenoblade characters, but that's not a title that will get you very far (unless you're genuinely super popular like Noah and Mio).

 

[dream1ng]

I think it's worth noting that even without the momentum of a port, she did score third place among Xenoblade characters.

I'd say she's among the most popular Xenoblade characters, but that's not a title that will get you very far (unless you're genuinely super popular like Noah and Mio).

By nature of how Xenoblade seems to work, once the next new cast is a thing, those leads will probably end up becoming the most popular for that time. And then the next new cast, so on and so forth.

That's going to make any character who isn't in that position both decrease in demand and have to compete with a character who likely not only has popularity at that moment, but also probably fits into who they're actually looking to choose for Smash.

I don't really foresee this pattern breaking for these types of series in Smash, sadly. I think the most to hope for is multiple newcomers, so one doesn't have to abide by a promotional edict. That said, I don't know if Xenoblade is primed for that position, especially in the face of Pokemon and FE.

 

[Ivander]

Right... but if she got into Smash she'd have enough popularity to get into Smash is... well, it's backwards, isn't it.

If I had this job my resume would be good enough to get this job. But if your resume falls short, you're not going to get the job in the first place.

Those characters you mention who may not have had the popularity had something else which got them in, which Elma lacks. Most are the main representative of their series, some just had better timing.


Also I think Samus would still be quite popular even without Smash.

It's not backwards when you take into account that there's two different fanbases. You have the fanbase that actually knows about her and want her in for her own merits and then you have the fanbase who doesn't know of her. If Sakurai thinks she can get into Smash Bros,, for one reason or another, then the fanbase who doesn't know about her learns about her, some or most get interested in her which eventually turns into more popularity and because the one fanbase is much larger than the other fanbase, her popularity basically becomes more than twice the amount then before she got into Smash Bros.

Also, Elma is absolutely the main representative for Xenoblade Chronicles X, much like the Fire Emblem protagonists for their respective games, Ness for Earthbound and Lucas for Mother 3 and Shulk for Xenoblade 1 and Pyra & Mythra for Xenoblade 2. She is the main character next to Cross in Xenoblade X and plot and story-wise, she is easily the most important character of Xenoblade X. She was also used for representing XCX when she appeared in Xenoblade 2 and she still appears in artwork regarding Xenoblade X, like the Monolith Soft compilation artwork or whatnot. So she certainly does not lack being a representative of their series, but as you said, it's really just timing that she's not in.

 

[SharkLord]

Yeah for the most part, DLC was self-contained to the Challenger Packs.

Which, yeah I get. But at the same time missed opportunity for new stages and music.

I think the biggest part of it was the devs being reduced to a skeleton team for the DLC cycle. If Sakurai gets to keep a mostly full team for the DLC, I'd bet we could see a lot more content.

Would Nintendo want that? Maybe, maybe not. They might stick to the same strategy Ultimate did, but Ult also sold absolute gangbusters. That might give a bit more incentive to keep a full team and keep pumping out post-launch content for much longer. It especially helps now that they (presumably) have a dedicated team in Bandai Namco's Studio 2 and/or S

 

[Royaru]

I've always wondered how different things would be if in Smash 4 instead of choosing Corrin they had chosen Elma.

I mean, I know Sakurai was looking for a character from a game that hadn't come out yet, but if he had chosen a character from a recent game instead it definitely would have been Elma.
Who knows, maybe that would have helped reduce the toxicity towards FE characters, and given Xenoblade a boost in popularity.

 

[Perkilator]

I've always wondered how different things would be if in Smash 4 instead of choosing Corrin they had chosen Elma.

I mean, I know Sakurai was looking for a character from a game that hadn't come out yet, but if he had chosen a character from a recent game instead it definitely would have been Elma.
Who knows, maybe that would have helped reduce the toxicity towards FE characters, and given Xenoblade a boost in popularity.

Even if Elma was in Sm4sh instead of Corrin, maybe they would’ve saved a Fates character for Ultimate’s base game? (In which case my preference would still have been Azura instead of Corrin but that’s besides the point)

 

[Idon]

Even if Elma was in Sm4sh instead of Corrin, maybe they would’ve saved a Fates character for Ultimate’s base game? (In which case my preference would still have been Azura instead of Corrin but that’s besides the point)

Feel like we'd just have no "new" FE newcomer for base game in that scenario.

By the time Smash Ult would be released, Fates would be 3 years old by then with the 3DS being rapidly phased out and going by Sakurai's explanation of Byleth's inclusion of Nintendo wanting to have characters in Smash from currently playable games on current consoles, I think it would have just had the Chrom echo before we moved to Byleth DLC.

 

[SharkLord]

I've always wondered how different things would be if in Smash 4 instead of choosing Corrin they had chosen Elma.

I mean, I know Sakurai was looking for a character from a game that hadn't come out yet, but if he had chosen a character from a recent game instead it definitely would have been Elma.
Who knows, maybe that would have helped reduce the toxicity towards FE characters, and given Xenoblade a boost in popularity.

Fates was out by the time Corrin was revealed, just not in the West. That said, XCX did get released in the West just a couple weeks before the final presentation, which could have carried some hype for the reveal in time for the actual release. So honestly, it doesn't seem like too much of a long shot.

In the grand scheme of things, Corrin didn't click with the fanbase that well. Yes, Fates sold pretty well, and yes, they're one of the most unique FE character. But even so, there was already some debates over the FE representation more than doubling during Smash 4. And compared to franchise-defining titles like Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Three Houses (And Ike just being really popular), Corrin and Fates just don't stand out that much.

Honestly, I think Elma would have aged better overall. Unfortunately there would still be some drama for Chrom - An Echo of a semiclone to a fighter who already has an Echo and especially Byleth - Who would still suffer from overcharged expectations and an awkward trailer. Heck, there were already some doubts after Roy - Robin was expected and Lucina was a quick bonus clone, but while Roy was brought back because of his popularity, he still meant FE had more than doubled it's lineup in a single game, with three of those characters sharing at least parts of a moveset. Still, Elma over Corrin might've softened the debates a little

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Elma being included definitely would be ratcheting up the speculation with Noah and Mio even more; three previous Xenoblade games getting Smash fighters would have many feeling those two would be an inevitability. It is interesting to imagine Elma being compared to Bayonetta in such a timeline given they'd both be revealed; fan art of their shared love of dual pistols might have made the whole thing worth it.

 

[dream1ng]

It's not backwards when you take into account that there's two different fanbases. You have the fanbase that actually knows about her and want her in for her own merits and then you have the fanbase who doesn't know of her. If Sakurai thinks she can get into Smash Bros,, for one reason or another, then the fanbase who doesn't know about her learns about her, some or most get interested in her which eventually turns into more popularity and because the one fanbase is much larger than the other fanbase, her popularity basically becomes more than twice the amount then before she got into Smash Bros.

But then this goes to what SPEN18 was saying insofar as this really could apply to anyone.

That's why it's backwards. You're literally starting from the point that she's been selected and then saying that will get her popularity. You're starting at the end, she's already been chosen. But why did she get chosen? That's what you need to start with.

What, because Sakurai saw something in her? That could be used for literally any character.

The characters you mentioned before were chosen because they represent their whole series. She does not. If anyone were to do that, it'd probably be Shulk. Or, they were beneficiaries of good timing. Which she isn't. That's why as parallels, the only thing they share is maybe they weren't so popular beforehand. But that's a negative. That's a deficit they worked around thanks to their positives. But the positives they had, she lacks.

Also, Elma is absolutely the main representative for Xenoblade Chronicles X, much like the Fire Emblem protagonists for their respective games, Ness for Earthbound and Lucas for Mother 3 and Shulk for Xenoblade 1 and Pyra & Mythra for Xenoblade 2. She is the main character next to Cross in Xenoblade X and plot and story-wise, she is easily the most important character of Xenoblade X. She was also used for representing XCX when she appeared in Xenoblade 2 and she still appears in artwork regarding Xenoblade X, like the Monolith Soft compilation artwork or whatnot. So she certainly does not lack being a representative of their series, but as you said, it's really just timing that she's not in.

Of course she represents her game, but that doesn't really matter if XCX isn't the current, new title. If FE7 were to get a character it'd be Lyn, but it's not going to get a character over Engage or whatever the newest FE would be. Even if we get that FE4 remake, new games still seem to supersede that. If we got Gen V remakes, it wouldn't really matter who would get picked there, because we'd get Gen IX or X.

Ness, Lucas, Shulk, and Pyra/Mythra were all the current characters at their time of selection. It's either going to be that, or characters who front the whole series like Marth or Cloud. Elma does not play that role in Xenoblade.

It'd be a different story if the only thing we got after XC2 was this port. But hey, if XCX2 comes out, and Elma retains her prominence, she'd be in a very good position so long as it remained the current one. Which would be cool, I'd prefer Elma over Noah or Mio.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'll be honest. The only Xenoblade game I've ever played is Xenoblade X (for the Wii U), and I didn't even play very much of that. Now I kinda wanna get into the series. I'm guessing I should start with Xenoblade 1 DE.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'll be honest. The only Xenoblade game I've ever played is Xenoblade X (for the Wii U), and I didn't even play very much of that. Now I kinda wanna get into the series. I'm guessing I should start with Xenoblade 1 DE.

You could always buy every single game right away. They're all on Switch

 

[Ivander]

In the grand scheme of things, Corrin didn't click with the fanbase that well. Yes, Fates sold pretty well, and yes, they're one of the most unique FE character. But even so, there was already some debates over the FE representation more than doubling during Smash 4. And compared to franchise-defining titles like Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Three Houses (And Ike just being really popular), Corrin and Fates just don't stand out that much.

Alot of Three Houses was practically Fates' ideas done right. As much as Fates might get hammered upon, future Fire Emblem games after Fates definitely took more from Fates than it has previous titles. Garreg Mach Monastery was practically Fates' My Castle expanded upon, it had the multiple routes and the chilling reality of fighting against your former students, not unlike Fates' thing about fighting against either your mother's family or your foster family., the ability to choose outfits or accessories also came from Fates, the Avatar becoming the main character instead of the secondary main character, the focus of the main character having dragon powers(while Awakening had Robin tied to Grima, Grima's blood didn't give Robin any powers compared to the latter 3 and Grima comes in more later whereas the other 3's powers come in very early), the durability system being toned down also began with Fates, the Arena being part of the main hub instead of an area you can find on the maps also began with Fates and probably a bit more I can't remember at the moment.

 

[Shinuto]

I think Xenoblade is definitely big enough of a Nintendo series at this point to deserve more than one newcomer next Smash so we get Noah/Mio and potentially Elma. with that ALL four of the big main Xenoblade games are properly repped.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Alot of Three Houses was practically Fates' ideas done right. As much as Fates might get hammered upon, future Fire Emblem games after Fates definitely took more from Fates than it has previous titles. Garreg Mach Monastery was practically Fates' My Castle expanded upon, it had the multiple routes and the chilling reality of fighting against your former students, not unlike Fates' thing about fighting against either your mother's family or your foster family., the ability to choose outfits or accessories also came from Fates, the Avatar becoming the main character instead of the secondary main character, the focus of the main character having dragon powers(while Awakening had Robin tied to Grima, Grima's blood didn't give Robin any powers compared to the latter 3 and Grima comes in more later whereas the other 3's powers come in very early), the durability system being toned down also began with Fates, the Arena being part of the main hub instead of an area you can find on the maps also began with Fates and probably a bit more I can't remember at the moment.

There are some games in a series that while not particularly stand out in the grand scheme are critical for either fixing series that have gone astray and/or introducing concepts that later more ambitious games can improve on. Mario Kart 7 is one, to a degree Smash 4 is another and in way it's fitting that a Fates character ended up on the latter given that it feels like that sort of entry too, just for Fire Emblem.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm tempted to ask an Elma related question but I don't want the thread to detail again.

 

[SPEN18]

I think it's worth noting that even without the momentum of a port, she did score third place among Xenoblade characters.

I'd say she's among the most popular Xenoblade characters, but that's not a title that will get you very far (unless you're genuinely super popular like Noah and Mio).

Yeah, I think most would say she's the most popular, or one of the few most popular at least, characters outside of the most recent entry. Which is probably her best argument. She's also possibly helped a bit by those who would prefer a character from an unrepped game.

But, as you say, that only gets you so far. As much as Xenoblade has grown during the Switch era, it's still more on the niche side, with each entry selling around 1-2mil. That makes multiple unique newcomers for it less likely.

And the other huge factor is this. In other franchises like FE or Zelda, we see the legacy candidates not only competing with but even straight-up wiping out the newer characters in your poll. Even in Pokemon, we saw the older mons having no trouble competing with S/V mons. That didn't happen for Elma.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah, I think most would say she's the most popular, or one of the few most popular at least, characters outside of the most recent entry. Which is probably her best argument. She's also possibly helped a bit by those who would prefer a character from an unrepped game.

But, as you say, that only gets you so far. As much as Xenoblade has grown during the Switch era, it's still more on the niche side, with each entry selling around 1-2mil. That makes multiple unique newcomers for it less likely.

And the other huge factor is this. In other franchises like FE or Zelda, we see the legacy candidates not only competing with but even straight-up wiping out the newer characters in your poll. Even in Pokemon, we saw the older mons having no trouble competing with S/V mons. That didn't happen for Elma.

That's why I said Noah and Mio are legitimately super popular. It's not like Rauru where he's just being assumed to be acceptable. Noah and Mio have legitimate Smash support.

It's like Raven Beak beating Sylux. He's just naturally popular.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Xenoblade is definitely big enough of a Nintendo series at this point to deserve more than one newcomer next Smash so we get Noah/Mio and potentially Elma. with that ALL four of the big main Xenoblade games are properly repped.

I think we need to slow our roll a little bit. I got nothing against Xenoblade but I find it odd the way people treat it as entitled to a surplus of content when it’s like… a moderately popular series, in the grand scheme. Compared to maybe a dozen other series on the roster its popularity and size is not demanding all of this overcompensation. I’m not a purist about series size relative to representation but it’s something that I don’t think is lost on Sakurai.

We could definitely see a new Xenoblade character next game, or even two I guess. But altogether with everything we already have, Noah / Mio and Elma on top of that it would technically place Xenoblade at six distinct characters which is pretty nuts. That’s why to be honest I’m a little wary of rosters that place both Mio and Noah alongside Shulk and Pythra. That’s a lot to project toward this one series.

As for Elma, it’s really cool to see her join the conversation again - I’ve always quite liked her - but I really don’t see her eclipsing Xenoblade 3 for consideration if XBC gets a new character. I’m sure it’s been said here already, but let’s talk if XCX gets a sequel and Elma sticks around. I do hope this inspires more XCX content in the next game though, as opposed to how little it has in Ultimate. At least a couple tracks.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I'm tempted to ask an Elma related question but I don't want the thread to detail again.

Hello I am a bad influence, I say ask the Elma related question anyway.

 

[Ivander]

Hello I am a bad influence, I say ask the Elma related question anyway.

I'm pretty sure I know what it is and boy, would that question really detail the thread.

 

[Laniv]

Cowboy Fox, Falco and Wolf (it was in the plans)

...I really wanna hear about this one.

 

[SharkLord]

Elma being included definitely would be ratcheting up the speculation with Noah and Mio even more; three previous Xenoblade games getting Smash fighters would have many feeling those two would be an inevitability. It is interesting to imagine Elma being compared to Bayonetta in such a timeline given they'd both be revealed; fan art of their shared love of dual pistols might have made the whole thing worth it.

That is true; In that timeline, Elma might've given Xenoblade characters the perception of being the "inevitable RPG fighter" over Fire Emblem; In that timeline, we would've skipped Fates as well as Echoes, and Byleth might be seen as just an anomaly, since they would be FE's first "advance slot promo pick" since Roy.
Elma and Bayo's comparisons would also be interesting; There might be some griping over the two final fighters having dual pistols, but given that Bayo's a supernatural brawler and Elma uses two swords instead of her fists, I think the overall reception would be pretty chill.

Alot of Three Houses was practically Fates' ideas done right. As much as Fates might get hammered upon, future Fire Emblem games after Fates definitely took more from Fates than it has previous titles. Garreg Mach Monastery was practically Fates' My Castle expanded upon, it had the multiple routes and the chilling reality of fighting against your former students, not unlike Fates' thing about fighting against either your mother's family or your foster family., the ability to choose outfits or accessories also came from Fates, the Avatar becoming the main character instead of the secondary main character, the focus of the main character having dragon powers(while Awakening had Robin tied to Grima, Grima's blood didn't give Robin any powers compared to the latter 3 and Grima comes in more later whereas the other 3's powers come in very early), the durability system being toned down also began with Fates, the Arena being part of the main hub instead of an area you can find on the maps also began with Fates and probably a bit more I can't remember at the moment.

Yeah, that's bad wording on my part. A more accurate choice of words would be fandom-defining titles; Shadow Dragon was the first game, Awakening got the series off life support and made it big worldwide, and Three Houses saw an even bigger surge of newcomers. Blazing Blade also introduced the series to the West, but that game doesn't have a fighter so I didn't think it would make sense to bring it up when discussing Smash

I think we need to slow our roll a little bit. I got nothing against Xenoblade but I find it odd the way people treat it as entitled to a surplus of content when it’s like… a moderately popular series, in the grand scheme. Compared to maybe a dozen other series on the roster its popularity and size is not demanding all of this overcompensation. I’m not a purist about series size relative to representation but it’s something that I don’t think is lost on Sakurai.

We could definitely see a new Xenoblade character next game, or even two I guess. But altogether with everything we already have, Noah / Mio and Elma on top of that it would technically place Xenoblade at six distinct characters which is pretty nuts. That’s why to be honest I’m a little wary of rosters that place both Mio and Noah alongside Shulk and Pythra. That’s a lot to project toward this one series.

As for Elma, it’s really cool to see her join the conversation again - I’ve always quite liked her - but I really don’t see her eclipsing Xenoblade 3 for consideration if XBC gets a new character. I’m sure it’s been said here already, but let’s talk if XCX gets a sequel and Elma sticks around. I do hope this inspires more XCX content in the next game though, as opposed to how little it has in Ultimate. At least a couple tracks.

Regarding Noah AND Mio together, I think it helps that Noah and Mio are pitched as dual protagonists in all the marketing. Sure, Noah's got the Xenoblade, but Mio seems to have her fair share of plot relevance on top of being genuinely popular, so a lot of people are inclined to throw her in as well. Plus, going out on a limb and having somewhat unlikely choices in your fan roster helps shake things up a bit. Otherwise, every roster would look the same and there wouldn't be any reason to make 'em.

or maybe we're just bad at choosing between options so we just have our cake and eat it too to make it simple

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hello I am a bad influence, I say ask the Elma related question anyway.

I'm pretty sure I know what it is and boy, would that question really detail the thread.

If you insist.

But only because I'm legitimately curious.

Would Elma count as a PoC rep?

She looks like a PoC, but the issue lies in...

Spoiler

The fact that she's not even human. She's an alien that has pale white skin, blue feathery hair, gems on her head and purple eyes.

The human looking body she uses is a disguise. She's trying to help humanity and she returns to her true body at the end of the game. You can opt to have her use her fake human looking body in the post game though.

I ask because the idea of a PoC "being pale all along," might put a bad taste in people's mouth.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Regarding Noah AND Mio together, I think it helps that Noah and Mio are pitched as dual protagonists in all the marketing. Sure, Noah's got the Xenoblade, but Mio seems to have her fair share of plot relevance on top of being genuinely popular, so a lot of people are inclined to throw her in as well. Plus, going out on a limb and having somewhat unlikely choices in your fan roster helps shake things up a bit. Otherwise, every roster would look the same and there wouldn't be any reason to make 'em.

or maybe we're just bad at choosing between options so we just have our cake and eat it too to make it simple

I would prefer Mio if it HAS to be one or the other personally considering her weapon is more unique, but considering Noah gets the ultra-important blade weapon (Lucky Seven), it would probably be him lol

At least I can take solace in Mio almost certainly showing up for Final Smash since I imagine Ouroboros would have to be included for that if nothing else, kinda like Rex does for Pyra and Mythra.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If you insist.

But only because I'm legitimately curious.

Would Elma count as a PoC rep?

She looks like a PoC, but the issue lies in...

Spoiler

The fact that she's actually not even human. She's an alien that has pale white skin, blue feathery hair, gems on her head and purple eyes.

The human looking body she uses is a disguise. She's trying to help humanity and she returns to her true body at the end of the game. You can opt to have her use her fake human looking body after this though.

There are so many jokes I could make out of this and the amount of them that aren't offensive is nonexistent. But I guess that's what happens when a fictional character literally does blackface.

For anyone not named Swamp, only click if you clicked Swamp's spoiler or know what he's talking about

 

[SharkLord]

There are so many jokes I could make out of this and the amount of them that aren't offensive is nonexistent. But I guess that's what happens when a fictional character literally does blackface.

For anyone not named Swamp, only click if you clicked Swamp's spoiler or know what he's talking about

Do you think Elma slapped together a disguise without knowing much about Earth history, did some research one day, and had a big "oh crap" moment upon realizing what a pale-skinned alien donning a dark-skinned human disguise would evoke? From what I can gather it seems like she hadn't been on Earth long before making a disguise, but I don't know the full plot so I might be giving her too much credit here

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Do you think Elma slapped together a disguise without knowing much about Earth history, did some research one day, and had a big "oh crap" moment upon realizing what a pale-skinned alien donning a dark-skinned human disguise would evoke? From what I can gather it seems like she hadn't been on Earth long before making a disguise, but I don't know the full plot so I might be giving her too much credit here

I haven't played the game but I imagine this is what's going on. Still, if she were real, she would absolutely get cancelled for it either way

 

[SharkLord]

I haven't played the game but I imagine this is what's going on. Still, if she were real, she would absolutely get cancelled for it either way

"Bro who the hell is Frieza and why do people keep comparing me to him? ...Pale skinned alien who became black? 'Black face?' What does that even mea-OH."

"oh no"

 

[Ivander]

If you insist.

But only because I'm legitimately curious.

Would Elma count as a PoC rep?

She looks like a PoC, but the issue lies in...

Spoiler

The fact that she's not even human. She's an alien that has pale white skin, blue feathery hair, gems on her head and purple eyes.

The human looking body she uses is a disguise. She's trying to help humanity and she returns to her true body at the end of the game. You can opt to have her use her fake human looking body after this though.

Oh, I thought it was the age-old question of Are you a dog person, a cat person or an Elma person?

That aside, it's sketchy, especially when there's no confirmation on what she based her body double on(she's tanned, so there's a bunch of nationalities her body could be based on.). Not that the fact that it's a robot body much like the other characters helps either. Her robot body is practically her own "Created Character", much like our Robot body when we go crazy with the creation options.. I guess it depends on whether you would consider a robot with a dark skin tone, like 2P from Nier or TE-LOS, a PoC.

That said, I don't see why Aliens can't be considered PoCs to begin with, especially when her main body's skin is certainly not your average white person.

 

[Laniv]

If you insist.

But only because I'm legitimately curious.

Would Elma count as a PoC rep?

She looks like a PoC, but the issue lies in...

Spoiler

The fact that she's not even human. She's an alien that has pale white skin, blue feathery hair, gems on her head and purple eyes.

The human looking body she uses is a disguise. She's trying to help humanity and she returns to her true body at the end of the game. You can opt to have her use her fake human looking body in the post game though.

I ask because the idea of a PoC "being pale all along," might put a bad taste in people's mouth.

I had a feeling it was gonna be this, which is great, because I've been thinking about this for a while.

Spoiler: Lotta talking and Xenoblade Chronicles X spoilers

Let's start by taking Elma as she appears at the start, that is, her default appearance. There, she falls under the ambiguous brown-ness of Minecraft's Steve, and Fire Emblem's Timerra, and fellow Xenoblade character Taoin: their skin is darker than most other characters in that game/show, but they don't have any Black features, like the broad nose or curly, differently textured hair.

But then you see the true form and it's just. Wow. Okay. Hmm. It's like the Tetra reveal from Wind Waker but worse.

Some people may ask, "Does that mean Elma is technically doing blackface?" I say... Ehhhhhh. From what I hear, it's mostly a reference to KOS-MOS from Xenosaga, but the implications both in and out of universe are... not great. I'm not sure whether it's better or not for them to just ignore those, story-wise.

That said, something to keep in mind is that Elma is a fictional character. And when I say that, I mean that Elma did not choose to look like that in either form. That is squarely on the game's character designers.

Me, I'm not gonna stop anyone from saying she counts as a character of color. I'm just saying to keep in mind all that stuff I just said up there, and the implications therein.

On a final note, what I would have done with Elma is make her more obviously Black (come on, she'd look so cool with 3c hair), and make her true form's skin darker to match her human appearance.

and I'd alter her true form's armor, too, because it looks kinda lame

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If you insist.

But only because I'm legitimately curious.

Would Elma count as a PoC rep?

She looks like a PoC, but the issue lies in...

Spoiler

The fact that she's not even human. She's an alien that has pale white skin, blue feathery hair, gems on her head and purple eyes.

The human looking body she uses is a disguise. She's trying to help humanity and she returns to her true body at the end of the game. You can opt to have her use her fake human looking body in the post game though.

I ask because the idea of a PoC "being pale all along," might put a bad taste in people's mouth.

I'll add to the chain of blurry text. lol

I think she can be in the same way that any fantasy race can, and often are, especially when it comes to avatar characters. And maybe that's missing the point: We never ask this question for characters like Inkling, and Elma does have one layer deeper in that the ethnicity we proscribe to her is canonically false since she doesn't have a human ethnicity, or any sort of equivalent.

But also...is it? Elma never really gives her thoughts on her mimeosome, but one would assume that she'd pick a look that she likes/identifies with, especially considering that it looks just like her, just without elf ears, blue skin, and crystaline hair. It also also informs how we view her, which seems to be as a PoC. Is one of those factors more important than the other? Do they compound on each other? Does the fact that she isn't human invalidate them both. Does the fact that we identify other fictional characters that are also not human as PoC invalidate that invalidation?

...I think if I think about this any longer I'm going to end up in a VSause video. IMO, yes, she does count, as it's how we view her for most of the game, and personally, the recontextualization at play doesn't really affect my perception of her in this regard.

 

[SharkLord]

This entire discussion to people trying to dodge spoilers

 

[Ivander]

It is what it is, but I don't think it really matters much. If you think she counts as a PoC, more power to you.

That said, I think people are trying to fly too close to the sun with the whole "blackface" thing regarding an alien using a human disguise. Because one, you don't know why she used that design in the first place. Maybe there was somebody important to her who looked similar. Two, justice for Elma when people are complaining about her, but nobody complained about Trish from Devil May Cry doing the same thing.

 

[NintenRob]

I did not expect a discussion about Black Face. Like, I don't think I've ever seen someone call Martian Manhunter black face when he frequently takes the form of a black man as his incognito look.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

You know, I often thought blackface was the reason Little Mac has no black skin alts based on some of his pponents, before realizing the main problem is his final Smash being white.

 

[Wonder Smash]

On the subject of Earthbound, I just want to say that while it may seem odd to some people not having Ninten with Ness and Lucas, in some ways you can say Ninten is Ness. When you think about, Earthbound isn't just a sequel. It's also more like a reboot. Everything about the first game was basically redone in the second game. Giygas was the only returning character and even he was redone for the second game. So it's easy to understand why people would rather see other characters from the series because Ninten is already there in the form of Ness, a much more well-known character.