Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[chinkuru]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
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For me Meowth is the only one who deserve be in

 

[Kirbeh]

Funny thing about that is, there's someone currently working on Jolteon as a custom fighter for Project M.

He had so many ideas for Jolteon alone he had to start making Flareon as a semiclone so they wouldn't go to waste without bloating the former's moveset

https://imgur.com/a/jolteon-battle-test-1-C67gBQs

https://imgur.com/a/flareon-test-4-aw7lxGy

https://imgur.com/a/flareon-test-5-ns2gbac

I guess I should clarify that I don't think the other Eevees lack moveset potential, so much as I don't see them getting handled that differently if they were to make it in an official capacity.

I do think Vaporeon and Sylveon are the most obvious and easiest to differentiate though, hence why I'd pick them over the others in a limited scenario. Otherwise I'd include them all + Eevee if it were possible. I'd add like a fourth of all Pokemon though...

That aside, I'm always surprised but pleased to see that Brawl modding is still going strong. My favorites are still some of the really out there ones like Nu and Merkava from a few years back.

 

[Guynamednelson]

For me Meowth is the only one who deserve be in

It's too late for Meowth. It only had the anime to go on, and...there's no longer a Meowth character in the anime.

You could make an argument for it last gen where Team Rocket was still in the anime and it got multiple new forms.

 

[ninjahmos]

It's too late for Meowth. It only had the anime to go on, and...there's no longer a Meowth character in the anime.

You could make an argument for it last gen where Team Rocket was still in the anime and it got multiple new forms.

Obligatory text

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Them referencing the manga to make a moveset work isn't a problem in any way. It's a multimedia franchise, and they reference the anime often enough.

Making it coherent and feel natural? That's a lot more of an ask, especially as transformation movesets are very tasking on development.

(And yes, I mean Eevee. Meowth doesn't relate to Transformations very well in comparison).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Them referencing the manga to make a moveset work isn't a problem in any way. It's a multimedia franchise, and they reference the anime often enough.

Making it coherent and feel natural? That's a lot more of an ask, especially as transformation movesets are very tasking on development.

That's not what I was referring to, it's that The Pokemon Company doesn't market Meowth that much anymore, and the closest it had to marketing in modern times besides new forms was that Team Rocket's Meowth was still present in the anime.

Was.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Given how they treat anime stuff, I feel like Team Rocket would be derived almost entirely from their appearance in Pokémon Yellow, in which case they'd be Meowth ft. Arbok and Wheezing with Jesse and James in the background.

EDIT: Such a prospect doesn't appeal to me super hard.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not what I was referring to, it's that The Pokemon Company doesn't market Meowth that much anymore, and the closest it had to marketing in modern times besides new forms was that Team Rocket's Meowth was still present in the anime.

Was.

I wasn't talking about Meowth, but Eevee. Edited my post to reflect that. Transformations was some context, but clearly not enough, heh.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Meowth's time has definitely come and gone, and while I frankly didn't expect it to ever happen pre-Gen 9, Ash and by extension Team Rocket bowing out of the anime is pretty much the nail in the coffin for Meowth in Smash I think.

The anime was about all that was keeping Meowth relevant to the franchise, since it had a specific unique member among its ranks, but in Smash the only time Meowth has been depicted as that incarnation is his trophy in Melee, which depicts his appearance in the Meowth's Party tech demo (and technically the ending to Pokemon Channel's Pichu Bros. short, but that came after).

Any time Meowth appears as a Poke Ball Pokemon, it makes no vocalization at all I don't think, let alone actual lines, sort of like how Electrode has never said its name or anything as a Poke Ball Pokemon. It was never based off of the anime as a Poke Ball, but the long running stint in the anime as Pikachu's rival kept the dream alive, but even that's gone now, so... Not looking great for the Scratch Cat.

Eevee kinda has some things going for it, but I feel like to make an interesting moveset, you'd have to either specifically make it Partner Eevee from Let's Go, or it'd have to be a relatively standard moveset with like... Extreme Evoboost as basically an install super or Gmax Eevee, and Extreme Evoboost is two Generations past now while Gmax is one Gen past lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I never really understood the appeal of Eevee as a Smash fighter. As it's been said, the Eeveelutions are part of the Pokemon's appeal and it'd be hard to include them into a moveset. The best you could do is use the partner moves from Let's Go Eevee.

Thats why i remarked that they would have to reference the manga to make a moveset interesting.


Red's Eevee in the manga, named Vee was experimented on by team rocket and gained the ability to temporarily change into it's evolutions to use their elements.

They would never actually do this of course since the Pokemon Manga is always kept separate from the rest of the franchise.

 

[CannonStreak]

Thats why i remarked that they would have to reference the manga to make a moveset interesting.


Red's Eevee in the manga, named Vee was experimented on by team rocket and gained the ability to temporarily change into it's evolution to use their elements.

They would never actually do this of course since the Pokemon Manga is always kept separate from the rest of the franchise.

Well, still...

Who needs Meowth when you have a Team Rocket experimented-on Eevee that could be put into Smash Bros. if they wanted to for some reason?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Meowth? Eevee?

Nah.

Gengar.

 

[cashregister9]

If they ever do decide to do a moveset that is a super complicated "all forms in one with a bunch of different elemental attacks" type moveset, I do think Eevee would be the best choice for that

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

You REALLY think the next Smash will have less than 40 fighters at launch?

I personally doubt it'll be THAT bad.

Look at other fighting games. I think the next Smash will be more different from Ultimate than Ultimate was from 4/5. In such a case, expecting so many characters is absurd.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Look at other fighting games. I think the next Smash will be more different from Ultimate than Ultimate was from 4/5. In such a case, expecting so many characters is absurd.

Tekken 8 started with 35 characters and KoF XV started with 39.

To show you how exceptional this is, traditional FGC games these days seem to struggle having a starting roster in the 20s.

If those two very recent games can have relatively big rosters for their genre, I don't see how Smash can't have more than 40 characters in the next game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Look at other fighting games. I think the next Smash will be more different from Ultimate than Ultimate was from 4/5. In such a case, expecting so many characters is absurd.

Smash isn't other fighting games though. To date the series has only brought its base roster numbers up, with 12 in the first game, 26 in Melee, 39 in Brawl, 49 in SSB4, and 69 in Ultimate. This obviously won't continue, but there's no reason to suggest it's actually going to slash Ultimate's number in half, especially given that the main source of marketing is its large roster. Even if we're expecting a big gameplay shakeup, bigger than we've ever seen before, we still have examples like MvCI. That game revamped its gameplay from a 3v3 to a 2v2 + a new gimmick button format and overhauled a lot of its existing roster, and it only had 6 less characters than MvC3 did in its base roster.

It's also worth noting that each game since Brawl has had a huge development sync. Ultimate is cheating since it's roster was that development sync, but Brawl had it's story mode, and SSB4 had the dual dev cycles. Assuming gameplay and character changes are the next game's sync, we could still probably get something between Brawl and SSB4's numbers (granted, Brawl's number is below 40, if by one).

 

[ninjahmos]

Is it really possible that we'll get another Gen 1 Pokémon? I mean, I definitely would love another Gen 1 Pokémon, but I feel like they'll stick to the current generation(s).

 

[SPEN18]

Extreme Evoboost as basically an install super or Gmax Eevee, and Extreme Evoboost is two Generations past now while Gmax is one Gen past lol

Do you mean for the FS? I mean "all the Eeveelutions show up and deliver a super attack" doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly based on Extreme Evoboost or anything from a past gen, it just makes total sense as a FS to have something like that which incorporates all the evolutions if they couldn't be explicitly part of the moveset proper.
A big part of the point of going for Eevee is that it's an evergreen, secondary mascot type that reliably gets promoted basically every gen, including recently. Not that it would be a problem anyway referencing or simply taking some inspiration from something from a past gen for part of a moveset.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Is it really possible that we'll get another Gen 1 Pokémon? I mean, I definitely would love another Gen 1 Pokémon, but I feel like they'll stick to the current generation(s).

It's not an impossibility, but there is a very low probability.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

Gengar, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Dragonite and Raichu all deserve a mention here I feel. These stood the tests of time most. And many are iconic and popular, some even could be based on existing fighters. Maybe all of them in fact, with exception of Gengar.

 

[Ivander]

I see no mention of a Gen 1 Pokemon that also stood the test of time, is one of the more popular Gen 1 Pokemon and is one of the more easier Pokemon to add that can have it's own gimmick.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I see no mention of a Gen 1 Pokemon that also stood the test of time, is one of the more popular Gen 1 Pokemon and is one of the more easier Pokemon to add that can have it's own gimmick.

I mean, Smash already has another option for that kind of gimmick.

 

[Ivander]

I mean, Smash already has another option for that kind of gimmick.
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Sure, but there's a problem with that option. It's not Ditto.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I mean, Smash already has another option for that kind of gimmick.
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This just made me remember: I kinda hope Master Core comes back next game. Maybe not exactly the same because Master Fortress could get kinda long-winded after doing it enough, but like if Master Hand can get new moves and stuff every so often, I can't imagine it'd be impossible for Giant/Beast/Blades to get new stuff, or even new forms altogether.

Was shocked they weren't even anywhere in World of Light, like they're literally a big shadowy mass called "Swarm" that erupt from Master Hand when he's weakened.

 

[Stratos]

Even though Meowth is no longer a main character in the anime, I still consider him one of the characters I want as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series.

 

[fogbadge]

I see no mention of a Gen 1 Pokemon that also stood the test of time, is one of the more popular Gen 1 Pokemon and is one of the more easier Pokemon to add that can have it's own gimmick.

I mean, Smash already has another option for that kind of gimmick.
View attachment 396225

personally I'd go with Blanca or Wisp from animal crossing

 

[BuckleyTim]

Oh boy, another chance to mention Zoroark as a moveset copying character. Have them work kinda like Twelve from Third Strike, where down B has them illusion into the nearest character to briefly yank their moveset. Taking enough damage would of course dispel the illusion.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh boy, another chance to mention Zoroark as a moveset copying character. Have them work kinda like Twelve from Third Strike, where down B has them illusion into the nearest character to briefly yank their moveset. Taking enough damage would of course dispel the illusion.

zoroark doesn’t get the movesets with illusion

 

[Garteam]

All of this discussion over getting another classic Pokemon or Fire Emblem character makes me wonder if looking to the past for those franchises isn't the better option for this game than adding a Gen 10 Pokemon or Alear.

We've seen the promotional song and dance many times over and, as someone who likes these games, both Engage and Scarlet/Violet felt transient enough to justify foregoing a playable character from one of those games in favour of characters that really show what the cast of each series can do. Alternatively, you could forego adding a newcomer from each series in favour of an established vet, but that may piss off people wanting new content.

I mean, IS probably wouldn't go for it and the Pokemon Company may or may assassinate Sakurai if he were to pitch this idea, so it would never happen. However, this is one of the few scenarios where I think intentionally departing from Ultimate's design philosophy could actually be an asset rather than a detriment.

 

[Gengar84]

zoroark doesn’t get the movesets with illusion

True but I think Smash should be able to take some creative liberties as long as it conveys the core idea. I think copying the moveset is the only way to really make illusion work in Smash. Otherwise you have to animate every character with all of Zoroark’s moves. My brother and my idea for Zoroark is if you just pick it normally, there is no illusion and it just plays like any other character. However, if you hold a certain button while choosing a different character, you’d start the match as that character but it would revert to Zoroark for the rest of the match after taking a set amount of damage. That way, you’d keep the surprise factor of Illusion since, to your opponent, it would look like you were selecting a different character.

 

[fogbadge]

True but I think Smash should be able to take some creative liberties as long as it conveys the core idea. I think copying the moveset is the only way to really make illusion work in Smash. Otherwise you have to animate every character with all of Zoroark’s moves. My brother and my idea for Zoroark is if you just pick it normally, there is no illusion and it just plays like any other character. However, if you hold a certain button while choosing a different character, you’d start the match as that character but it would revert to Zoroark for the rest of the match after taking a set amount of damage. That way, you’d keep the surprise factor of Illusion since, to your opponent, it would look like you were selecting a different character.

granted creative liberties are more than allowed for smash but I feel you’re going that far with illusion you’d be as well to use ditto

 

[BuckleyTim]

Yeah but the inherent problem is that l like zoroark more than ditto, so I must fit the square peg into the round hole because there's no way theyd add zoroark if ditto already did everything it could do lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Is it really possible that we'll get another Gen 1 Pokémon? I mean, I definitely would love another Gen 1 Pokémon, but I feel like they'll stick to the current generation(s).

I'd say it is possible because while it's unlikely that we'd forgo the Gen 9 Pokémon, we could receive another Pokémon on top of that like in Brawl.

Aaaaand then I'd say it's highly improbable because it would require adding another gen 1 Pokémon, further skewing the series' representation, and there'd have to be enough slots to justify such a decision in a game where available slots are hard to come by.


EDIT: Ditto as a true random character would work quite well though, and be not very resource intensive to make as well. You could also make them an asset reusey character like Double that can transform into other characters, but I don't think I'd go that far.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah but the inherent problem is that l like zoroark more than ditto, so I must fit the square peg into the round hole because there's no way theyd add zoroark if ditto already did everything it could do lol

except ditto doesn’t do everything zoroark does.

 

[BuckleyTim]

except ditto doesn’t do everything zoroark does.

Yeah, but it does the core gimmick of "this character becomes a facsimile of the opponent". Given that any realistic scenario involving one of the two getting into smash would also involve a pokemon from the most recent gen getting in, I doubt that they'd double down on that gimmick even if they were considered in entirely different games' production timelines.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I imagine if we get another Gen 1 Pokémon in Smash, it’ll be on top of a Gen 9/10 Pokémon in the base game, like how Melee brought in Mewtwo with Pichu, and Brawl brought in Trainer alongside Lucario.

Pokémon is probably the series that could get the harshest cuts, with 8 (or 10) unique characters that are up for the chopping block.

It does feel possible that we may get some swapping out picks for a new game beyond Pokémon.

And while Eevee is expected by Pokémon fans, I don’t think they’re as obvious to Smash fans.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, but it does the core gimmick of "this character becomes a facsimile of the opponent". Given that any realistic scenario involving one of the two getting into smash would also involve a pokemon from the most recent gen getting in, I doubt that they'd double down on that gimmick even if they were considered in entirely different games' production timelines.

except disguising himself as another character is not the only string to zoroark’s bow. he doesn’t need to use illusion

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

except disguising himself as another character is not the only string to zoroark’s bow. he doesn’t need to use illusion

It may not be their only tool, but it's their signature ability. Not including Illusion would be like not giving Lucario Aura Sphere. Or not giving Jigglypuff Sing. Or not giving Pikachu Thunderbo-oh wait...

EDIT: To be clear, it is super freaking weird that Pikachu doesn't have a move called Thunderbolt.

 

[fogbadge]

It may not be their only tool, but it's their signature ability. Not including Illusion would be like not giving Lucario Aura Sphere. Or not giving Jigglypuff Sing. Or not giving Pikachu Thunderbo-oh wait...

EDIT: To be clear, it is super freaking weird that Pikachu doesn't have a move called Thunderbolt.

It’d also be like not giving young link time powers, toon link wind powers or joker his wild card ability

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It’d also be like not giving young link time powers, toon link wind powers or joker his wild card ability

I don't think The Song of Time or Winds Requiem's effects would be any good in a fighting game. Wild Card you've probably got a point on, but I've never played Persona 5 so I wouldn't know. Could be like the other avatars who use their basic abilities even though they've got a whole bunch of versatile options.