Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Al-kīmiyā']

they'll be lucky to get to 40

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If it adds to anything others just said, I'd rather have Ayumi than the FDC Protagonist.

The sad part about this hypothetical is that it decreases Ace Attorney's chances of getting a character in smash.

Both series would kinda fill the same niche and since one is first party and the other a third party it makes more sense to go with the first party.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I feel like you guys may have took the wrong message from my post to frame this as "other Pikmin characters should get in first" because... yeah, I agree, I framed this specifically as an echo fighter scenario under the guise we'd either get a unique Pikmin newcomer on top of that or nothing otherwise. I don't consider it equivalent to Louie, who would probably be a semiclone given his unique proportions, or Oatchi who would be 100% unique. I also think it'd be a waste to give the Rookie a "full" character slot, and I don't see much of a point in utilizing them as a fully original character. Unless their idea for implementing Oatchi was to tie him to a commander, which could be the Rookie, but even so I'd much prefer to see that done with Captain Shepherd. And moreso he doesn't really need any of that in the first place, but I digress.

The main reason I'd be okay with Oatchi having the Recruit/Rookie with him is because of the opportunity to give them a Leafling Rookie + Moss alt combo, which I just think would be fun lol

Otherwise, yeah, I don't really think Oatchi needs any of that, since Moss would probably be an alt anyway, and they could always just give the Leafling alt to Olimar.

As for the actual crux of your Echo Fighter talk, I think it's also more likely to be Recruit/Rookie rather than Alph if we HAVE to get an Echo because Pikmin 4 has more to work with between the Rock Pikmin an Alph Echo should've had and ALSO Ice and Glow Pikmin potentially being implemented as well.

 

[Ivander]

I'm with Gorgonzales; I understand that some avatar characters are already on the Smash roster, but given the opportunity I would rather have actual defined characters get added over even more avatars.

Look....I do want more non-Avatar characters in Smash Bros and would certainly want a non-Avatar Fire Emblem character over Alear....But anybody who says the FE Avatar characters are not defined are kidding themselves.

Spoiler: Alot of images

And a bonus Corrin and Kiran:

 

[DarthEnderX]

100 Fighters ? We'll need Echoes, clones and semi clones for that. I mean, we have 89 right now right? Count 7 more Koopalings and that's 96 already. That's an easy cheat.

Why bother to cheat? 11 more characters is nothing if you're including Echoes.

Even then, with 11 new characters, i'd think 3-5 of them would have to be Echoes to save on development time, similar to Ultimate's base roster. Then if you really wanted that 100th unique character, you could fill the rest of the slots with 2 more fighter passes.

This. 100 Fighters including Echoes before DLC. 100 Fighters not including Echoes after DLC.

I'm doubtful of that, cause there's been a noticeable progression away from time-consuming stuff.

looks at WoL and the 1000+ levelable Spirits

Say what?

 

[SharkLord]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

Honestly I'm fine with how they turned out. Aside from the 8-bit whip sounds, they don't look overly stiff or rigid to me, even if their whip strikes can be a little simple and repetitive. Moveset-wise, they are a little slow, but I think that's a fair tradeoff for their massive hitboxes, at least from a casual perspective. The one issue is that Uppercut is just kinda crappy as a recovery option, but aside form that I think they're pretty fun.

Though, it would've also been cool if their Grand Cross was a big stage-filling attack like Julius' version of the attack, not a cinematic. The coffin always grabbed my attention more than the actual crosses. Still, it's a cool cinematic, so it's more a nitpick than anything

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Louie G. is almost certainly correct: Alph isn't going to be an Echo Fighter instead of Rookie. This is of course, assuming that they can't (or more likely won't) do both, but if there can only be one, the character that wasn't even in the new game ain't gonna be it.

...Please do both. I'll even accept a 0 changes echo as long as it gives Alph the slot.


Also as much as I like puppies, I would be very upset if Isabelle replaced Villager. For one, Isabelle's changes to Villager's moveset suck because they aren't cohesive, and for two, how else am I gonna play as a mischievous little brown kid?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Look....I do want more non-Avatar characters in Smash Bros and would certainly want a non-Avatar Fire Emblem character over Alear....But anybody who says the FE Avatar characters are not defined are kidding themselves.

Spoiler: Alot of images

View attachment 396188

View attachment 396189View attachment 396190View attachment 396191

And a bonus Corrin and Kiran:
View attachment 396195View attachment 396196

I assume the issue is the official english translations for the Fire emblem games have never been good.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

Since I skipped this earlier... To be honest, my opinion on Simon is actually a little biased for a strange reason.

I like Simon because sometimes in Free For Alls I start just playing Castlevania basically, walking around, occasionally F-tilting, maybe throw an axe or a cross every now and then. It's super stupid but it's funny every time, and sometimes I even win while I'm doing it.

So in that regard, the fact that I can even do that I think means his design is pretty good and I have a lot of fun with it lol

 

[DarthEnderX]

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

Fantastic. Yes. No. Absolutely.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

they'll be lucky to get to 40

You REALLY think the next Smash will have less than 40 fighters at launch?

I personally doubt it'll be THAT bad.

 

[Ivander]

I assume the issue is the official english translations for the Fire emblem games have never been good.

Sounds more like a weeb problem. You gotta take them by the boots or they just keep sprouting.

 

[Louie G.]

For one, Isabelle's changes to Villager's moveset suck because they aren't cohesive

This is kind of an interesting take on reflection, because I personally find Isabelle's Lloid Trap and Fishing Rod a lot more practical in the context of a stage control oriented trap character. Lloid Rocket is kind of a weird move (nothing wrong with it, but I could take it or leave it) and the Tree is awesome albeit very situational. Fishing Rod and the Lloid Trap allow direct stage pressure in a way that Villager can't do quite as well, the ability to more efficiently bait your opponents into your traps, pull them into the line of fire, etc. The mind games are a little better here, in my eyes.

There are certain parts about Isabelle that don't come together, I'm not in total disagreement with you there, but I honestly feel that her special moves are better thought out than Villager's to match a more defined playstyle. Both end up playing kinda the same way but I think Isabelle's tools help me understand the archetype more. Glad we agree on the other point though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Fishing Rod

bait

pull

line

Good puns, friend

 

[SharkLord]

You REALLY think the next Smash will have less than 40 fighters at launch?

I personally doubt it'll be THAT bad.

40 characters is sub-4 numbers. Hell, it's barely higher than Brawl. EiH has been stated over and over again to be a once-in-a-generation thing, but I can't see us losing over half the roster. We're at least getting 45 characters, more likely around 50ish, around Smash 4's size

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is kind of an interesting take on reflection, because I personally find Isabelle's Lloid Trap and Fishing Rod a lot more practical in the context of a stage control oriented trap character. Lloid Rocket is kind of a weird move (nothing wrong with it, but I could take it or leave it) and the Tree is awesome albeit very situational. Fishing Rod and the Lloid Trap allow direct stage pressure in a way that Villager can't do quite as well, the ability to more efficiently bait your opponents into your traps, pull them into the line of fire, etc. The mind games are a little better here, in my eyes.

There are certain parts about Isabelle that don't come together, I'm not in total disagreement with you there, but I honestly feel that her special moves are better thought out than Villager's to match a more defined playstyle. Both end up playing kinda the same way but I think Isabelle's tools help me understand the archetype more. Glad we agree on the other point though.

Maybe I'm just bad, but I've never been able to use either move as effectively as I'd like, and it kinda hurts my enjoyment of her. Ironically, I think I have used her more than I have Villager because I want to make it work, but I just can't. Might also have to do with center screen bias though. I tend to use characters more towards the bottom of the roster because they're closer to the center of the screen, and I tend not to look any higher until I specifically want to deviate from them. lol

As for Lloyd Rocket, I suppose it's kinda weird that it's an approach behind projectile on a character who wants to do no such thing, but it tanks hits and threatens space really well, especially in conjunction with Villager's forward aerial, and I find it a lot more intuitive as a result.

 

[Slime Scholar]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

I wish the Belmonts felt a little more capable overall. They were given the longest range of any fighter in the series, only to be power crept by the likes of other "distance demon" characters like MinMin.

Their movesets make sense and feel as close to Castlevania as you could reasonably get, but sometimes their projectiles feel a little over-centralized, and I wish their recovery was better. Maybe make it so the Uppercut goes higher and/or doesn't put you in the helpless state? Otherwise the Belmonts are very well-realized.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Alph becoming an echo is unlikely.

But it is something that SHOULD have happened. Let us cast aside our previous shackles and shed the robe of costumehood.

#JusticeforAlph2024

 

[BritishGuy54]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.

 

[AreJay25]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

As someone who considered Eevee as a potential pick before... I don't think it would particularly be the most interesting character on its own. The main thing about it is obviously the Eeveelutions, and I don't really see many feasible ways you could incorporate them into its moveset without it feeling super clunky.

... Now, something they COULD do is go for an Eeveelution Trainer, which, funnily enough, has been somewhat of a thing within the Pokemon series itself. The only problem is deciding which ones would fill the spots...

 

[fogbadge]

The sad part about this hypothetical is that it decreases Ace Attorney's chances of getting a character in smash.

Both series would kinda fill the same niche and since one is first party and the other a third party it makes more sense to go with the first party.

yeah just like how we only ever get one jrpg character per smash

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

I doubt a single pokemon fan would be surprised

 

[Hadokeyblade]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

If you base it on the Eevee from the manga you might have something here.

But that would require referencing the manga

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

40 characters is sub-4 numbers. Hell, it's barely higher than Brawl. EiH has been stated over and over again to be a once-in-a-generation thing, but I can't see us losing over half the roster. We're at least getting 45 characters, more likely around 50ish, around Smash 4's size

Yeah, I think a more realistic take on the "we're getting massive cuts" is like, Smash 4 numbers.

I can see the number of returning veterans be in the 40s if there are big time constrains and legal issues, but not less than 40 for the whole launch roster

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Tbh I’d rather have 20 vets that are all revamped completely for a complete reboot than to cut “only” half the roster to maybe give Sheik another new Side Special.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.

Yes, though Eevee of all characters would not be a surprise pick.

For that, we'd have to go deeper.

As someone who considered Eevee as a potential pick before... I don't think it would particularly be the most interesting character on its own. The main thing about it is obviously the Eeveelutions, and I don't really see many feasible ways you could incorporate them into its moveset without it feeling super clunky.

... Now, something they COULD do is go for an Eeveelution Trainer, which, funnily enough, has been somewhat of a thing within the Pokemon series itself. The only problem is deciding which ones would fill the spots...

My idea to get around this would be to implement a mechanic called Evoboosting. Essentially it'd just be Monado Arts, but Eeveeloution themed, and affecting its attacks more than stats. Eevee players could Evoboost with Flareon, giving it slow, but powerful fire attacks, Jolteon, giving it weak electric attacks that give it burst movement options, or Vaporeon, which provides long ranged water attacks for zoning.

There are some other ideas I'd like to play around with like giving the character a meter that'd allow them to lock in their choice and evolve into their chosen Eeveeloution mid match, or maybe just have the Eeveloutions as separate playable characters that are more potent, but less flexible versions of Eevee due to the lack of Evoboosting. Or maybe allowing Eevee players to pick which types they could Evoboost with before the match so all Eeveeloutions could be technically present. Don't think we could make every single Eeveeloution playable though. They don't really share the same skeleton, and Sylveon especially would likely be unable to fit into a one size fits all body plan.

 

[Gengar84]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

My preference is obviously Gengar but Evee could be fun if they based its moveset off of Let’s Go Evee.

 

[Pupp135]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

Eevee feels like a very logical choice given that it is one of the most used pokemon for promoting the games, and the Eeveelutions are a recognizable part of Pokemon. I’m not sure how it would work in terms of playstyle, but I think the developers would be able to pull off an interesting moveset.

Related to Eevee, I have thought about Pokemon Trainer ideas where you switch among the Kanto Eeveelutions or switch between Espeon and Umbreon (this one is more influenced by Colosseum even though the main format of that game is double battle).

Outside of Eevee, Kanto does have a few other notable faces that would be cool to see, where Mew and Gengar would be the biggest highlights for me. Since we’re on the topic of Kanto fighters, what would everyone’s reaction be if Snorlax was the next joke fighter?

 

[dezeray112]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

Eevee would most likely be a logical choice for sure if it were to be selected as the next Gen 1 Pokemon rep.

If there were any others that I would like to see being as my candidates:

• Meowth
• Clefairy
• Hitmonlee or Hitmonchan
• Gengar
• Scyther
• Machamp
• Voltorb

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Honestly I'm fine with how they turned out. Aside from the 8-bit whip sounds, they don't look overly stiff or rigid to me, even if their whip strikes can be a little simple and repetitive. Moveset-wise, they are a little slow, but I think that's a fair tradeoff for their massive hitboxes, at least from a casual perspective. The one issue is that Uppercut is just kinda crappy as a recovery option, but aside form that I think they're pretty fun.

Though, it would've also been cool if their Grand Cross was a big stage-filling attack like Julius' version of the attack, not a cinematic. The coffin always grabbed my attention more than the actual crosses. Still, it's a cool cinematic, so it's more a nitpick than anything

I would have preferred if Simon had Grand cross just the way it is with the cinematic but Richter instead had Hydro storm as his final smash as a full screen attack that mostly just does a ton of damage to the opponents but it doesn’t K.O. Would be a different take on a final smash and it makes more distinct playing Simon and Richter while still being an echo.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think

I'm with Gorgonzales; I understand that some avatar characters are already on the Smash roster, but given the opportunity I would rather have actual defined characters get added over even more avatars.
I mean, heck, you're talking to someone who wouldn't mind it if Isabelle outprioritized the Villager, to be honest.

I'd agree. Even ignoring personality, avatar characters often have a massive amount of options in their own games, which makes it harder to narrow things down for a moveset.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd agree. Even ignoring personality, avatar characters often have a massive amount of options in their own games, which makes it harder to narrow things down for a moveset.

I don't think this is an issue in most cases. Most avatars have a default skill set, signature abilities, or rely exclusively on genre conventions to work as fighters.

Aside from console avatars like Miis, MMO PCs are really the only avatar characters that I think do run headfirst into this issue because their games have a bunch of classes that change the character's abilities drastically, and none of them are considered to be a "starter class" or highlighted over the others in promotional materials (unless they're new to the game or something).

 

[Kirbeh]

So… if we were to get another Gen 1 Pokémon… should it be Eevee? I think it could be a solid choice as an extra early purchase character akin to Plant, or a surprise pick no one expects alongside the typical Pokémon newcomer.
View attachment 396199

It wouldn't my first choice (or even tenth tbph) but I do think it's the choice that probably makes the most sense if you were to dip back into Gen 1.

How Eevee would play still doesn't seem to have a general consensus though.

I'm personally not a fan of trying to squeeze in every eeveelution as part of the moveset, feels too cluttered imo.

I'd pretty much want them to focus on the normal typing for the most part and give it a mostly basic kit.

Some specials (and maybe the Smash attacks) could be moves of different types but that's as far as I would take it.

If you want to actually play as the eeveelutions, I think it'd honestly be for the best to just pick one or two to accompany Eevee as related but separate, unique characters.

I'd probably go with Vaporeon (Dan had the right idea back in Super Smash Land) and Sylveon. Both have unique traits to their anatomy that give them an edge over the others imo.

A playable Flareon or Jolteon would probably just be bigger elemental Eevees (and I mean, fair enough, that is literally what they are) but Vaporeon has the big aquatic mammal tail and Sylveon has it's ribbon things that could set them apart when it comes to the regular attacks.

If not Eevee though I'd take any of;

 

[Guynamednelson]

A playable Flareon or Jolteon would probably just be bigger elemental Eevees

Funny thing about that is, there's someone currently working on Jolteon as a custom fighter for Project M.

He had so many ideas for Jolteon alone he had to start making Flareon as a semiclone so they wouldn't go to waste without bloating the former's moveset

https://imgur.com/a/jolteon-battle-test-1-C67gBQs

https://imgur.com/a/flareon-test-4-aw7lxGy

https://imgur.com/a/flareon-test-5-ns2gbac

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Alph becoming an echo is unlikely.

But it is something that SHOULD have happened. Let us cast aside our previous shackles and shed the robe of costumehood.

#JusticeforAlph2024

with having Rock and Ice Pikmin instead of Purple and White Pikmin. Rock Pikmin are durable and weak to elemental attacks and they are thrown like a projectile instead of being thrown and latched into a fighter. Ice Pikmin can float in water and has a rare chance to inflict freeze.

 

[Nickthebrick1]

What do you guys think of the most recent smash bros commercial nintendo release? I thought it was kind of odd they'd make a new one for Ultimate since the game already went through it's hype cycle long ago? I just can't shake off the feeling something else is going on considering the game announcements Sakurai made and talk that Switch 2 may be released in March of next year.

 

[Gorgonzales]

What do you guys think of the most recent smash bros commercial nintendo release? I thought it was kind of odd they'd make a new one for Ultimate since the game already went through it's hype cycle long ago? I just can't shake off the feeling something else is going on considering the game announcements Sakurai made and talk that Switch 2 may be released in March of next year.

It's just a commercial.

 

[Guynamednelson]

since the game already went through it's hype cycle long ago

That doesn't mean it stopped selling.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I never really understood the appeal of Eevee as a Smash fighter. As it's been said, the Eeveelutions are part of the Pokemon's appeal and it'd be hard to include them into a moveset. The best you could do is use the partner moves from Let's Go Eevee.

 

[Guynamednelson]

...honestly I'd think Eevee is too big to be included as one of the "surprise characters", but then I remembered the sales numbers of their games are why were chosen as 4's.

 

[SPEN18]

I've spoken several times in here about Eevee's potential. In short, I think it's best not to try to cram in the evolutions too much with some crazy gimmick, but even without directly involving the evolutions in the main part of the moveset, Eevee has more than enough to work with on its own, and definitely more than enough notoriety and popularity pull.
The evolutions can still pop up all at once for the Final Smash, which would actually already be a really cool way to incorporate all of them; and even beyond that, you could lean into Eevee's latent multi-elemental powers for part of its moveset if you wanted to (like the Let's Go Eevee moves or something similar), and its alts could copy the color schemes of its various evolutions. IMO it's more than enough to properly acknowledge that important aspect of Eevee without overcomplicating its moveset or taking on a Trainer-level workload.