Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[WeirdChillFever]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

This is worst of both worlds and I hate that you brought it up because I can see a non-zero percent chance of this actually happening.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

What kind of thing do you mean?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

What kind of thing do you mean?

Smash 4 Customs come to mind.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Still, bringing back all 82 fighters + Echo Fighters from Ultimate + even more on top of that is highly unlikely.

I agree, though it probably will be more like 10-12 newcomers since roster space is tight and I think 15 was as high as that number has gone historically.

Thant's why I'm saying 100 is probably only feasible if the next game is Ultimate deluxe. Even a Smash 5.5 with 100 seems unlikely. Plus, if you remember the Sora presentation, they do say the game has "89 fighters", so the smash team definetly counts Echoes when it comes to roster size. Even then, with 11 new characters, i'd think 3-5 of them would have to be Echoes to save on development time, similar to Ultimate's base roster. Then if you really wanted that 100th unique character, you could fill the rest of the slots with 2 more fighter passes.
Ultimately , I think that Sakurai or whoever is developing the next game will take the cut-down roster approach to let Ultimate stand more on its own. Plus, since we know the Switch Sucessor will be backwards compatible, there's less of an incentive to do a bunch of switch ports (unless Nintendo goes full on PS5 with the system).

 

[ninjahmos]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

God, I hope not…

I know Sakurai loves his traditions, but surely he's brave enough to make some changes, right?

…Right?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Smash 4 Customs come to mind.

Yeah that would make sense. I was having a hard time trying to think of a gimmick that wouldn't actually change the gameplay.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

This is the fear I've been trying to explain for months.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Then if you really wanted that 100th unique character, you could fill the rest of the slots with 2 more fighter passes.

...which could be done with the Ultimate we already have, we don't need Ultimate DX to have FP3 just because most of us don't want to think otherwise.

 

[Oracle Link]

Do you think the version at the top would be more suited to a One-Winged Angel like temporary transformation rather than an alternate outfit?

Here’s a rough idea of what I was thinking for Ganondorf’s specials (made before ToTK):

Neutral Special - Dead Man’s Volley: This one is a lot like Sephiroth’s special on the ground. Pressing quickly is basically the same as Sephiroth’s weak special. Charging the move causes Ganondorf to levitate higher in the air as it charges and he fires the projectile diagonally down from the air with increasing power and blast range based on the charge. From the air, he always fires it diagonally downward.

Side Special - Fire Bats: This is essentially a flamethrower like Bowser’s or Charizard’s that he emits from his hand. The animation summons a wave of fire bats engulfed in flames. If you’ve ever played Diablo 3, it’s one of the variants of the Witch Doctor’s special (the game had Ganondorf’s Twilight Princess armor) but also based on classic Gannon.

Up Special - Trident toss: Ganondorf tosses his trident in one of eight directions and teleports to its location. The move has about the same properties as Fox’s up special regarding Start-up, range, and damage.

Down special: Ground pound: This is kind of similar to Bowser’s down special but he slams the ground with his fist.

Ahem i definitly had the tjhought sometimes however i personally think That it could be annoying if you just wanna fight against human GAnondorf!
Lets say you wanna recreate the windwaker final battle him turning into the demon king would be annoying in that case!

NS: REALLY GREAT!

SS: Okay i guess

US: This is actually really cool!

DS: Yeah also very cool from the oot Battle!

Reminder the fire bats circle ganondorf so maybe something like sephiroths Grape skittles?

 

[Shinuto]

God, I hope not…

I know Sakurai loves his traditions, but surely he's brave enough to make some changes, right?

View attachment 396175

…Right?

What the hell are you guys talking about? What I this "gimmick"?

 

[RouffWestie]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

I'm doubtful of that, cause there's been a noticeable progression away from time-consuming stuff. There won't be another SSE, we know Sakurai's disappointments with it are still present. Then there's the fact that modes have already been gradually dropping in complexity. Target Tests went from unique stages for each character to 5 pre-existing templates, to a modified Home-Run contest, to just being cut entirely; Trophies were removed, which Sakurai confirmed were too time-consuming; most previous modes aren't even whitttled down and are just gone entirely. I can't see him repeating design choices after he's assessed them as not being worth the time needed to add them.
I would say gameplay overhauls that reduce the time needed to pump out characters at a faster rate are the most likely change coming in the next Smash.

 

[Ivander]

I don't mind something being time-consuming if the stuff you are doing that is time-consuming is fun. Like Custom stuff for Smash 4. Smash Run was a fun mode to do, so I didn't have an issue with getting custom stuff in Smash 3DS.
The modes in Smash Wii U, not so much.

 

[ninjahmos]

What the hell are you guys talking about? What I this "gimmick"?

I think everyone basically means some sort of mode that would take up too much time and resources, when said time and resources could be spent more on veteran reworks or any major gameplay changes. Or even newcomers.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

100 Fighters ? We'll need Echoes, clones and semi clones for that. I mean, we have 89 right now right? Count 7 more Koopalings and that's 96 already. That's an easy cheat.

If you also count Alph, Alex, Zombie, and Enderman we already have 100 characters.

 

[Jave]

Ultimate is great, but we've been playing it for 6 years now and I think that getting that game again as Ultimate Deluxe for an entire extra generation with no additions other than more characters and stages is going to get old real fast. I'm ready for something new and different, new modes that allow for more creativity, different ways to play the game, and a focus on adding more newcomers to the roster, all while keeping the game's core gameplay. If that means getting a smaller base roster, so be it.

But wanna save a lot of dev time? Just get rid of Stage Morph. For me it was the most pointless mode ever in Smash and I cannot even begin to imagine how much time it took during testing. Knowing Sakurai, he most likely tested every combination of characters or every possible permutation of stages.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Bit wild though that Brawl had the entire SSE to develop and Smash For was literally two separate games and had custom special moves for the whole roster, but it was Ultimate adding back eight or so old veterans that suddenly gutted the base game newcomer count. Are fighters that much more resource-intensive?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Bit wild though that Brawl had the entire SSE to develop and Smash For was literally two separate games and had custom special moves for the whole roster, but it was Ultimate adding back eight or so old veterans that suddenly gutted the base game newcomer count. Are fighters that much more resource-intensive?

Ironically despite Ultimate being built directly off of Smash 4's assets, its fighters feel a lot less copypasted-from-4 than 4's felt like they were copypasted from Brawl. 4 left a lot of Brawl animations as-is, even for Bowser and Yoshi despite their upright stances, but Ultimate didn't.

 

[Arcanir]

But wanna save a lot of dev time? Just get rid of Stage Morph. For me it was the most pointless mode ever in Smash and I cannot even begin to imagine how much time it took during testing. Knowing Sakurai, he most likely tested every combination of characters or every possible permutation of stages.

He probably did, if the stage morphed into each other in the wrong way it'd break the stage and/or make it unplayable in some way, so you'd likely have to test them to make sure they worked properly.

Bit wild though that Brawl had the entire SSE to develop and Smash For was literally two separate games and had custom special moves for the whole roster, but it was Ultimate adding back eight or so old veterans that suddenly gutted the base game newcomer count. Are fighters that much more resource-intensive?

Sakurai did say at one point that adding fighters isn't additive, but multiplicative, so that would track. It would also make sense as fighters have the most interactions with the game's various aspects as they have to be balanced against each other, items, stages, modes, and other such things, and that all certainly adds up.

 

[SharkLord]

Bit wild though that Brawl had the entire SSE to develop and Smash For was literally two separate games and had custom special moves for the whole roster, but it was Ultimate adding back eight or so old veterans that suddenly gutted the base game newcomer count. Are fighters that much more resource-intensive?

Honestly? Probably. Aside from creating the models in the first place, there's like 25-30 attack animations in a single fighter, each of which has to be fine-tuned and balanced. That's probably especially tricky for specials, which usually have some funky properties built in. And like Arcanir said, every new fighter adds a new set of interactions with everything else in the game, which is that many more chances for a bug that busts the game wide open. Between reports and Sakurai's YouTube channel, it's well-known that SSBU was hell for playtesters just because of how damn much is in the game

 

[Fa7oFuru]

I’m afraid we’ll get a time-sucking gimmick to make up for the lack of newcomers rather than veteran revamps or gameplay changes.

I really hope this isn't the case. You've said custom specials come to mind for example and I'm hoping Sakurai has learned his lesson on these inadequate but time-consuming gimmicks. I want to say Sakurai's pretty good at keeping his ear to the ground, seeing what fans want and what makes sense for the game so I'd say he knows better with the reception of custom specials being generally negative. The implementation of that was very criticized and rightfully so; being a pain in the butt to collect and a lot of them being uninspired.

Generally, I think Sakurai knows at this point that the roster is what makes Smash special and what sets it apart from other games. The Roster is the main concern Sakurai had for Ultimate and it's main selling-point so I'd want to say he'll find some middle-ground between focusing on the roster and tweaking the core gameplay to freshen things up. I can't say for sure ofc but I'm trusting Sakurai to make the right choice

 

[SPEN18]

I wanna say I remember a good number of folks back in the Brawl days who really wanted customization for movesets. But they may not have been thinking about just how much work that would've taken to implement in the way they were envisioning. Yeah I don't really see custom moves returning, though the concept may live on in a limited extent through the Mii fighters.
On the Miis, by the way, with backwards compatibility being confirmed and things like Nintendo accounts being carried over to Switch 2 as well, it seems very likely if not outright confirmed that the Miis will still be relevant on Switch 2.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I still think custom moves would be waaaaay better received if you could just pick them directly from the CSS. Even if they were still banned in tournaments, we‘d be able to have a lot of fun messing around with them in casual play.

Although, it’d probably be better to try something a little smaller scale, like maybe something comparable to Multiversus’ Signature Perks, where each character has ~3 options that you can pick just one of, which each either modifies one of the character’s moves or gives them a unique passive benefit. It’s still way less than Smash 4’s extra 8 moves per character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I still think custom moves would be waaaaay better received if you could just pick them directly from the CSS. Even if they were still banned in tournaments, we‘d be able to have a lot of fun messing around with them in casual play.

Although, it’d probably be better to try something a little smaller scale, like maybe something comparable to Multiversus’ Signature Perks, where each character has ~3 options that you can pick just one of, which each either modifies one of the character’s moves or gives them a unique passive benefit. It’s still way less than Smash 4’s extra 8 moves per character.

Way less than 8 extra moves but also far more impactful since it will directly address core parts of the moveset in ways a custom special can't.

Now I want that to happen which means it never will.

 

[Ivander]

On the Miis, by the way, with backwards compatibility being confirmed and things like Nintendo accounts being carried over to Switch 2 as well, it seems very likely if not outright confirmed that the Miis will still be relevant on Switch 2.

And all I hope is that if we get Miis back, we get an expanded Mii Maker like Miitopia's Mii Maker with a couple new additions.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

 

[Perkilator]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

Fundamentally speaking, I like how the original 2D games were translated to Smash for Simon and Richter’s respective movesets. They only change I’d make is to their up special; specifically, I’d have the aerial version travel higher but deal no damage, while the grounded version deals multiple hits to compensate for its relatively short height.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

Clearly not well if they needed to add Richter's moves in his moveset to pick up the slack

Joking aside, there's not much to say here. Platformer characters tend to translate very well in a game like Smash and the Belmonts are no exception.

 

[Ivander]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

I like playing him and Richter and they feel alot like what I imagined they would play like. I do think Up-B needs to go a bit higher, but otherwise I'm pretty satisfied.

Now if only DLC Alternate costumes were a thing so we could get Simon's Kojima design and Richter's Dracula X Chronicles design for them.

 

[fogbadge]

So, while everyone seems to think Castlevania got treated super well in Ultimate... I wanna focus on Simon.

How do you feel Simon was treated in Ultimate? Is his moveset fun? Is it lacking? Do you think his design is good?

well I understood he was supposed to be a pilot so they did a terrible job






It’s a joke don’t kill me

 

[Louie G.]

Unrelated thought, but something that's been passing my mind recently. I still see a good amount of people in favor of Alph getting an overdue upgrade to echo fighter that (at least IMO) should probably be directed at the Pikmin 4 Protagonist / Rookie at this point. As weird as it is that he didn't get the same perk as Lucina or Dark Pit way back when, that was such a long time ago that I think we should kind of put it to rest.

Not only because the Rookie is the new hotness, but I think the new customization introduced in Pikmin 4 is probably worth representing and as such you can open up a slew of more diverse alternate costumes through a different character while focusing on honing in Olimar as more of his own individual character. I think Alph probably remains glued to Olimar regardless and maybe we get three Pikmin heroes this way, but I unno. For as much as we acknowledge Oatchi nowadays it still feels like the default kneejerk reaction to an Olimar echo fighter is Alph instead of like... the new guy, from the more popular game.

 

[Idon]

I feel the same way I do about him and Richter as I do about Mega Man-
"Wow, this really does feel like I'm playing a classicvania"

"I hate playing Classivania! in smash "

In those games, the restricted mobility is part of the game itself and every enemy is balanced around it.
The issue now then becomes how ill-equipped that Simon is to handle Fox McCloud twerking on his shield and comboing the ever living **** out of him and/or gimping him at 20.

tl;dr It shoulda been Alucard.

Spoiler

Also where the **** is the Ayami Kojima Simon alt costume

 

[YeppersPeppers]

The Belmonts are the one and only time a character I really, really wanted (Simon) ended up playing pretty much exactly the way I imagined them to play and I absolutely love it. I can understand why people wouldn't enjoy the way they play but I think it's fantastic and believe them to be the best example of the "direct translation from their home series" approach, even more so than Mega Man (who is, for me, held back mostly by the sprite-based visuals which I cannot stand). Are they amazing in terms of greater game design? I dunno, but I have an immense amount of fun playing them casually so I'm not too fussed if they're super flawed on a deeper level.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Snake makes it into the next game, I kind of would also like to hear a new remix of this song:

 

[Gorgonzales]

Unrelated thought, but something that's been passing my mind recently. I still see a good amount of people in favor of Alph getting an overdue upgrade to echo fighter that (at least IMO) should probably be directed at the Pikmin 4 Protagonist / Rookie at this point. As weird as it is that he didn't get the same perk as Lucina or Dark Pit way back when, that was such a long time ago that I think we should kind of put it to rest.

Not only because the Rookie is the new hotness, but I think the new customization introduced in Pikmin 4 is probably worth representing and as such you can open up a slew of more diverse alternate costumes through a different character while focusing on honing in Olimar as more of his own individual character. I think Alph probably remains glued to Olimar regardless and maybe we get three Pikmin heroes this way, but I unno. For as much as we acknowledge Oatchi nowadays it still feels like the default kneejerk reaction to an Olimar echo fighter is Alph instead of like... the new guy, from the more popular game.

As a Pikmin fan, I really couldn't care less about the Rookie. If she gets in over actual characters like Louie or Oatchi, I'd roll my eyes. A Bulborb is arguably more of a character than she is.

I honestly hope Alph is removed as a skin next game and they go all in on giving Olimar his own personality. They probably won't, but that's the best case scenario because the current "2-for-1 deal" is half-arsed as heck and absolutely not worth it. Olimar is such a well-written and developed Nintendo character that it's a damn shame he's attached to a Pikmin 3 protagonist that isn't nearly as interesting, forcing both to be a generic template "Pikmin guy" character when there's more to both of them.

As for the "customization" aspect, it's not a compelling enough concept to justify adding Rookie as a whole. We have customizable characters in Inkling and Villager already and it works better for them.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I'm with Gorgonzales; I understand that some avatar characters are already on the Smash roster, but given the opportunity I would rather have actual defined characters get added over even more avatars.
I mean, heck, you're talking to someone who wouldn't mind it if Isabelle outprioritized the Villager, to be honest.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The Belmonts are the one and only time a character I really, really wanted (Simon) ended up playing pretty much exactly the way I imagined them to play and I absolutely love it. I can understand why people wouldn't enjoy the way they play but I think it's fantastic and believe them to be the best example of the "direct translation from their home series" approach, even more so than Mega Man (who is, for me, held back mostly by the sprite-based visuals which I cannot stand). Are they amazing in terms of greater game design? I dunno, but I have an immense amount of fun playing them casually so I'm not too fussed if they're super flawed on a deeper level.

Thats Sora for me.

He feels exactly like how i thought he'd feel.

I'm with Gorgonzales; I understand that some avatar characters are already on the Smash roster, but given the opportunity I would rather have actual defined characters get added over even more avatars.
I mean, heck, you're talking to someone who wouldn't mind it if Isabelle outprioritized the Villager, to be honest.

That's kinda why i think Oatchi should be picked if they pick another Pikmin character at all.

 

[ninjahmos]

If it adds to anything others just said, I'd rather have Ayumi than the FDC Protagonist.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like you guys may have took the wrong message from my post to frame this as "other Pikmin characters should get in first" because... yeah, I agree, I framed this specifically as an echo fighter scenario under the guise we'd either get a unique Pikmin newcomer on top of that or nothing otherwise. I don't consider it equivalent to Louie, who would probably be a semiclone given his unique proportions, or Oatchi who would be 100% unique. I also think it'd be a waste to give the Rookie a "full" character slot, and I don't see much of a point in utilizing them as a fully original character. Unless their idea for implementing Oatchi was to tie him to a commander, which could be the Rookie, but even so I'd much prefer to see that done with Captain Shepherd. And moreso he doesn't really need any of that in the first place, but I digress.

I also am on record many times over saying I often don't like avatar characters in Smash over more established faces. This is no exception - but I suppose I did evoke Alph's name, which I really just intended to do in order to say he feels like a lost cause at this point. He's pretty lucky to be a costume for Olimar at all and that's probably where he will stay, even though I am also generally of the same mind as Gorgonzales about preferring characters to be able to stand on their own, and not to water down dynamic characters with costumes that require them to be sterilized. If Pikmin got an echo fighter now, I feel like it just makes more sense if it was the new kid on the block. But I suppose if they added Oatchi we could clear the board on Pikmin 1-4 commanders, which could be neat.

I mean, heck, you're talking to someone who wouldn't mind it if Isabelle outprioritized the Villager, to be honest.

I've stated this opinion myself about a million times over the last few years, too. I think if a character can efficiently represent what the series is about without needing to create more of a symbolic avatar / vessel to represent the series, I prefer that to be the case. I think Isabelle is a more effective mascot and more interesting character, and she does the same sort of lifestyle stuff, so push comes to shove there you go. Not that I'm endorsing a Villager cut.

The reason I singled out Rookie here is because otherwise I think the sensible assumption is that she, and potentially other takes on the customizable avatar, would simply be skins for Olimar just like Alph. Going off the existing series precedent, at least. So would I rather that happen, or would I rather they stay separate as a low effort echo fighter? I'd rather they don't continue to clutter Olimar's skins and give him even more reason to be boring. That was my point!

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ultimate's roster size is its biggest strength and biggest weakness.

We have 80 unique fighters if you lump in transformation characters as one single character and don't count echo fighters.

Sakurai has made it clear how Smash counts it's characters.

Sora is 82. We need 18 more non-Echoes to reach Fighter #100.

If they actually go this route, they should cut all 3P characters from base game.

Just make them all DLC, allowing for actual significant changes to be made to those that need it and potentially allowing for a greater amount of content to be negotiated.

I'm okay with all 3P characters being DLC, as long a some of them are already buyable at launch.

And it already led to the devs having to sacrifice so much to make it happen.

They didn't sacrifice anything. They just moved it to DLC.