Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[KingofPhantoms]

If Hat Goombas are such a big deal anyway, where the heck is all the support for Private Goomp?

This argument has been around for years so I know there's no way I'm the first person to make this joke, but I couldn't resist

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I’ve definitely grown to appreciate Kamek as a character a lot more recently, I just finished Dream Team recently, and I quite enjoyed his presence there, and having a mage type character in Smash would be really fun. I wish he wasn’t identical to the generic Magikoopas, but it’s not a big deal for me at this point.

He has tough competition with other Mario characters, but I hope he gets into Smash someday.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So, what do you think of Kamek?

Do you think he'd be a good Smash addition? How do you think he would work? What would have to happen for him to be included?

He's a perfect candidate for a Mii Mage costume.

It's okay to have actual enemies as playable characters, just not characters made out of generic mooks.

Even though the Piranha Plant in Smash technically is a character made out of a generic mook. Don't ask.

Piranha Plant was a mistake that should not be repeated.

 

[Gengar84]

Piranha Plant was a mistake that should not be repeated.

I disagree. I think Plant was a fun surprise character. I think characters like this are great when they’re used as rare unexpected fighters but they’re probably best when they’re kept as a rarity. As long as the character has a fun design and moveset, that’s what matters most to me. Some mooks have the potential for much more unique Smash fighters than most normal human characters could.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I disagree. I think Plant was a fun surprise character.

I disagree.

As long as the character has a fun design and moveset, that’s what matters most to me.

The character is what matters most to me.

I never play Hero because I hate his moveset. But the most important thing to me is that he's here.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Obviously the character is gonna matter a lot to me but I also have a track record of my most wanted characters (whenever I get one, that is) playing in ways I don't really have fun with so I kinda have to make due with the people I don't really feel personally attached to

And also Bowser. Bowser's cool.

So because of that, I also put a lot of value in how fun someone's moveset is since Sakurai just doesn't want me to have my cake and eat it too.

 

[Gengar84]

I disagree.

The character is what matters most to me.

I never play Hero because I hate his moveset. But the most important thing to me is that he's here.

Character is important to me too but it’s not quite as vital in a game like Smash. There’s still characters in Smash don’t really bring over a whole lot of their personalities and back stories. So while I definitely value character a ton in general, I feel like aesthetics and moveset potential slightly edge it out in Smash specifically. Now, if a character has both an amazing design and awesome moveset potential on top of being a greatly written character, that’s even better.

That’s why I’ve been pushing for Jinx lately. I always thought she had a cool design but Arcane made me really like her as a character too. Some of my other most wanted characters, like Fulgore, I primarily want because he looks awesome and I’m a big fan of Killer Instinct. Fulgore doesn’t really have the character depth that someone like (Arcane) Jinx does but he’d still be an awesome fighter.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Obviously the character is gonna matter a lot to me but I also have a track record of my most wanted characters (whenever I get one, that is) playing in ways I don't really have fun with so I kinda have to make due with the people I don't really feel personally attached to

And also Bowser. Bowser's cool.

So because of that, I also put a lot of value in how fun someone's moveset is since Sakurai just doesn't want me to have my cake and eat it too.

I always feel like I got super lucky that I vibe with Banjo's kit pretty well, especially when some people really hate how his moveset was implemented to begin with lmao

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Character is important to me too but it’s not quite as vital in a game like Smash.

Okay, I was on your side because I agree that fun factor is incredibly important but I can't agree with that.

Smash is a crossover game. By its very nature, the characters ARE the most important thing. By a unit of distance longer than Min Min's ARMS.

Still, nice to know you think differently. Refreshing, even.

 

[NintenRob]

It's interesting playing the recent Mario & Luigi game, because Kamek and generic Magikoopas exist together in that game, except now the Magikoopas have a very plain yellow/orange colour.


They've really committed to making Kamek his own thing and I'm here for it

 

[Gengar84]

Okay, I was on your side because I agree that fun factor is incredibly important but I can't agree with that.

Smash is a crossover game. By its very nature, the characters ARE the most important thing.

Still, nice to know you think differently. Refreshing, even.

I don’t mean to imply that character isn’t important at all in Smash. It definitely still is but not to the same level as it is in something like a JRPG. If we had something like a Subspace Emissary back or a way that characters could actually interact with each other beyond basic matches, then character becomes even more important.

Also, I think maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say. By character, I was referring to stuff like a well written and fleshed out backstory and personality, not that I don’t care about which character is added. For example, Golisopod would be an awesome Smash character and it’s one of my favorite Pokemon but it isn’t really a “character” in the general sense. Same goes for a character like Goomba. What I mean is that a character doesn’t necessarily need a deep personality to be a fun Smash character (although it helps).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don’t mean to imply that character isn’t important at all in Smash. It definitely still is but not to the same level as it is in something like a JRPG. If we had something like a Subspace Emissary back or a way that characters could actually interact with each other beyond basic matches, then character becomes even more important.

Oooooh. You're talking specifically about character depth. Smash characters don't have a story to take part in, so the complexity of their roles doesn't really matter.


But like, character appeal is still king, as it is in all fighting games.

 

[Louie G.]

On Kamek - first things first, he's plainly just a Mario character these days. Not a Yoshi character. I understand why people still associate him with Yoshi, but I think it feels kind of forced nowadays to consider him a "Yoshi rep" when the character has been so prominent in the core Mario brand for the last several years.

As others have mentioned - pretty much since New Super Mario Bros Wii, with progressively further and further measures to establish Kamek into even more of an individual. RPGs such as post-Sticker Star Paper Mario and a recent example in M&L Brothership give Kamek prominent roles, he has become a major player and host in Mario Party. Perhaps even most notably, a central role in the Mario Movie as Bowser's most trusted advisor. It's been kind of a quiet climb, but I think it's safe to actually consider Kamek one of the more active players across the Mario brand.

With all that in mind, Kamek actually makes a really strong case for himself. And gameplay wise, I think there's a lot to be done with more of a toony wizard / witch type moveset the likes of which we haven't really seen yet. Mages remain a surprisingly underexplored archetype in Smash and I think Kamek has a lot to offer, and has quietly joined the ranks of the most omnipresent Mario characters of the modern age. He might not be my top choice for a new Mario character, but it's hard to argue with his credentials when you lay it all out.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Okay, I was on your side because I agree that fun factor is incredibly important but I can't agree with that.

Smash is a crossover game. By its very nature, the characters ARE the most important thing. By a unit of distance longer than Min Min's ARMS.

Still, nice to know you think differently. Refreshing, even.

"Character" as in personality traits, not literally the playable characters themselves.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I understand why people still associate him with Yoshi, but I think it feels kind of forced nowadays to consider him a "Yoshi rep" when the character has been so prominent in the core Mario brand for the last several years.

To be fair, people also say this about Yoshi.


EDIT: Thinking about it though, it's pretty likely that he'll be labeled a Mario character just because it gives him more freedom for inspiration. I'm pretty sure all he does in the Yoshi series is buff the bosses, so you wouldn't be able to use the minion summoning from Super Mario World or anything that he or other Magikoopas do in the RPGs.

 

[Louie G.]

To be fair, people also say this about Yoshi.

Yes, and to that point if Smash came out nowadays I highly doubt Yoshi's Island would be deemed its own series. Yoshi kinda got grandfathered in here - I'd say he has about as much business being marked as his own thing as Luigi does at this point, which you can make of that how you will.

Anyway, if we want to look at definitive proof, Kamek's spirit is from the "Super Mario Series". So I'm inclined just to take Smash's own feelings as gospel here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes, and to that point if Smash came out nowadays I highly doubt Yoshi's Island would be deemed its own series. Yoshi kinda got grandfathered in here - I'd say he has about as much business being marked as his own thing as Luigi does at this point, which you can make of that how you will.

Anyway, if we want to look at definitive proof, Kamek's spirit is from the "Super Mario Series". So I'm inclined just to take Smash's own feelings as gospel here.

I used to feel this way regarding Yoshi around the time of Smash 4, but Yoshi keeps getting consistent platformer releases that don't even have Mario in them. His last three games, Wooly World, Wooly World (with Dogs) and Crafted World don't hint at Mario at all.

So even if Kamek probably counts as more of a Mario character more, I think Yoshi has enough games to be it's own dedicated franchise.

Maybe Luigi's Mansion should be treated as such.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I used to feel this way regarding Yoshi around the time of Smash 4, but Yoshi keeps getting consistent platformer releases that don't even have Mario in them. His last three games, Wooly World, Wooly World (with Dogs) and Crafted World don't hint at Mario at all.

So even if Kamek probably counts as more of a Mario character more, I think Yoshi has enough games to be it's own dedicated franchise.

Maybe Luigi's Mansion should be treated as such.

I honestly think Luigi's Mansion has more validity to be its own separate series branch than Yoshi does. And that's despite the former having retained Mario as a common plotpoint in its future titles, unlike the latter.

 

[cashregister9]

Not doubting the validity of Luigi's Mansion at all, it's a fantastic series, but I think Yoshi got their own separate series because there are multiple different series that star Yoshi

Yoshi's Island
Yoshi's Woolly/Crafted World
Yoshi's Cookie
Yoshi
Yoshi's Safari
Yoshi's Touch & Go
Yoshi's Topsy-Turvy

Luigi really only has Luigi's Mansion and Super Luigi U

So what I'm saying is that Peach should get her own series

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think Yoshi has enough games to be considered its own series so the egg for his series icon is fine, but Kamek has appeared in so many mainline Mario games (the NSMB series especially, but I'm pretty sure he's also supposed to be the Magikoopa that sent Mario flying in the intro of Galaxy) and spin-offs like the RPGs, Party, Kart, that he would almost certainly be listed as a Mario character with the mushroom and all, even if he does show up in every Yoshi game in some form.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Here I confidently wanted to state DK isn't in this same situation and Mario never appeared in a mainline DK game outside of the DKC2 cameo, but am reminded that the last most spectacular appearance of DK is literally the Mario Movie.

It pains

It hurts

 

[EarlTamm]

It's interesting playing the recent Mario & Luigi game, because Kamek and generic Magikoopas exist together in that game, except now the Magikoopas have a very plain yellow/orange colour.


They've really committed to making Kamek his own thing and I'm here for it

I am really curious if this change will extend to other Mario games going forward or if this will just be a one off occurrence for some reason.

 

[fogbadge]

So, what do you think of Kamek? Do you like the character? Do you think the character has evolved over time? What do you think of his role in the Mario and Yoshi franchises?

Do you think he'd be a good Smash addition? How do you think he would work? What would have to happen for him to be included?

while not my most wanted mario character, or even second, I think there's potential for a fun and unique fighter in kamek. though I'd hope he'd have his peronality from the Origami King and the peach costume he’s donned on occasion

I used to not really care for Kamek because I was a TTYD kid (I thought Kammy was really fun and goofy) and Kamek hadn't really hit his stride yet, but I've come around a lot on him as he's had more prominent roles and bigger things to do.

same

 

[Shinuto]

To be fair, people also say this about Yoshi.


EDIT: Thinking about it though, it's pretty likely that he'll be labeled a Mario character just because it gives him more freedom for inspiration. I'm pretty sure all he does in the Yoshi series is buff the bosses, so you wouldn't be able to use the minion summoning from Super Mario World or anything that he or other Magikoopas do in the RPGs.

That's not how it would work.

 

[Gengar84]

"Character" as in personality traits, not literally the playable characters themselves.

Yeah, that’s what I was trying to say but I guess I kind of suck at explaining things lol. Basically, I like characters for a wide variety of reasons from aesthetics to abilities to personality and backstory. In general, I balance these all pretty evenly for my favorites but some characters definitely lean towards one reason or the other. For Smash, I tend to value the personality aspect a bit lower than I otherwise would, though it’s still important. For example, some characters I want are because I liked their game and they have a general “cool factor” like Bill Rizer. Bill is basically a typical 80’s action hero and doesn’t really have much of a personality beyond that.

Most Pokémon are essentially equivalent to mooks in other games unless GameFreak specifically makes a point to push them like starter Pokémon. Even starters don’t have anywhere near the depth of a typical JRPG party member. So, in that aspect, I don’t really see Piranha Plant as any more out of place than a random cool Pokemon like Garchomp. The primary reason I like the Pokemon I do is because I like their designs. Sometimes, it doesn’t really have to go much deeper than that, especially in a game without much interaction or story.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

while not my most wanted mario character, or even second, I think there's potential for a fun and unique fighter in kamek. though I'd hope he'd have his peronality from the Origami King and the peach costume from the film

You can take that spoiler off because that was far from the first time Kamek did that.

NSMB Wii and Dream Team both come to mind.

 

[fogbadge]

You can take that spoiler off because that was far from the first time Kamek did that.

NSMB Wii and Dream Team both come to mind.

How do I not remember that?

 

[Shinuto]

Question what does everyone think about hollow knight chances? I think they've diminished since it's sequel is taking so long to come out and keep the series relevant.

 

[NintenRob]

I am really curious if this change will extend to other Mario games going forward or if this will just be a one off occurrence for some reason.

I hope so. Making the default Magikoopas a different colour is nice way of making Kamek stand out, without the questioning of "is this Kamek or a generic Magikoopas."



Something like this would be nice for Toad too. But that just seems to get more complicated as time goes on.

 

[Gengar84]

Question what does everyone think about hollow knight chances? I think they've diminished since it's sequel is taking so long to come out and keep the series relevant.

I can’t say for sure but I don’t see it as particularly likely. We haven’t had an indie character yet and there’s a lot of competition for that. I do like the Knight’s design and he seems like he’d be a fun character from what little I’ve seen of him. So while I’m not really expecting him, I wouldn’t rule him out either and I’d welcome his inclusion. This is all going off gut feeling and I don’t really have any kind of inside knowledge so I could be wrong.

 

[fogbadge]

Question what does everyone think about hollow knight chances? I think they've diminished since it's sequel is taking so long to come out and keep the series relevant.

Not great but there’s always a slight chance of a mii costume

 

[ScrubReborn]

Piranha Plant was a mistake that should not be repeated.

Facts. IDK how people go at Incineroar (or anyone) for being a wasted slot when Plant is right there. People defend him for "moveset potential" as if any actual character couldn't have had just as much of a interesting moveset, and "importance" as if people think of him beyond spending a second killing one and then moving on.

--

About Luigi being his own series in Smash, since the topic came up; No. I don't care how big Luigi's Mansion is. Luigi isn't just another Mario character; he is a core part of Mario's foundation and identity. Someone like Yoshi may be important to Mario, but Luigi is the literal second half of Super Mario Brothers. It's not Mario without their relationship.

I don't necessarily agree with Yoshi being his own series either, but he's not comparable to Luigi. Separating Luigi would be a misrepresentation of Mario as a franchise.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t think we really need to strictly put characters in a box of “Mario character” or their own thing. You can be both at the same time. To me, if a character regularly appears in every spinoff game like Mario Kart and Mario Party, they’re a Mario character. That doesn’t mean they can’t also be their own thing in addition to that.

 

[NintenRob]

It's worth pointing out, that despite sharing the same emblem, Smash Bros has Mario kart as it's own franchise separate from all the other Mario games. Mario Kart music can only play on Mario kart

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's not how it would work.

Not how what would work?

You can take that spoiler off because that was far from the first time Kamek did that.

NSMB Wii and Dream Team both come to mind.

I was going to say it happened in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, but then I remembered it was actually funnier than that.

 

[Gengar84]

Here’s a question that I don’t think I’ve seen asked: Would you consider Waluigi to be a Mario character? He’s never appeared in a mainline Mario game and is exclusively in spinoff games. The same spinoff games that also regularly have Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi. So for those that don’t consider those three to be Mario characters, how would you classify Waluigi?

 

[BuckleyTim]

He's a Camelot Rep


Edit: speaking honestly I'd still consider him a Wario rep. Yes he's his own thing divorced from both Land and Ware, but he's still wario's buddy in 99% of his appearances (the DDR game being the only exception I can think of). Yes, he's only appeared in Mario games, but you ask any person on the street if he's more associated with Mario or wario and the answer would be clear.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here’s a question that I don’t think I’ve seen asked: Would you consider Waluigi to be a Mario character? He’s never appeared in a mainline Mario game and is exclusively in spinoff games. The same spinoff games that also regularly have Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi. So for those that don’t consider those three to be Mario characters, how would you classify Waluigi?

Spin offs or no, he's only appeared in the Super Mario series, so that's the only classification he can fit under.

Unless they finally add him to the WarioWare series.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I don’t think we really need to strictly put characters in a box of “Mario character” or their own thing. You can be both at the same time. To me, if a character regularly appears in every spinoff game like Mario Kart and Mario Party, they’re a Mario character. That doesn’t mean they can’t also be their own thing in addition to that.

I see your point somewhat, but in the context of Smash, you can only be one. And some characters are clearly more intrinsically tied to the core Mario brand than others; even if you can technically call them all "Mario" characters and not be wrong, it lacks nuance.

So for those that don’t consider those three to be Mario characters, how would you classify Waluigi?

Simple. He doesn't exist. We all hallucinated his memory.

...But fr. Being objective you'd have to call him a Mario character because he only appears in Mario-related games. Honestly I would go "**** it" and call him a Wario character anyways because of his relationship with Wario, but I'm a weirdo and I acknowledge that would not be accurate and would never happen.

...Which is why we need Waluigi in Wario games.

 

[BuckleyTim]

It's always weird to think that without Warioware, Wario as a character would've most likely faded into irrelevance after Shake It (maybe even sooner). I guess it's not surprise that we get wario-likes nowadays when he's been away from platforming for so long.