Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[HyperSomari64]

You know, compared to Mario Kart where we have 5 baby versions of 5 notable characters racing against their older selves just because.

Can't wait for Mario Kart...whatever it's titled (Yess, that's it's full name) for the Nintendo Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and add Sperm Cell Bowser Junior (his """"baby"""" version).

 

[Borskaboska]

This is very debatable because Sega was responsible for alot of the more "questionable" choices, especially the focus on cross-promotion. When Sumo finished their DLC poll for All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sumo wanted to add the highest poll choices which had Ryo Hazuki(who did become DLC), but would've also potentially included Hatsune Miku(who Sega had a video game license to), Segata Sanshiro, Vectorman, Bayonetta and Ristar, but Sega wanted to focus on cross promotions(which bizarrely enough, they were doing alot of cross-promotions with Hatsune Miku at the time making their choice to not include her weird) which we got a ton of between Danica Patrick, Wreck-It Ralph, Pyro, Heavy and Spy from Team Fortress 2 as a 3-in-1 character, characters from companies they had recently gotten like Football Manager, a Shogun from the Total War series and a character from Company of Heroes 2, and a charity cross-promotion with Yogscast with Yogscast's Simon Lane as a character.
Granted, Wreck-It Ralph and Team Fortress 2 were seen favourably, but the others, not so much, especially when all of the DLC was only brought to the Steam version of the game, and none of the extra characters from the Steam version were added as DLC to the others, with the console versions missing out on 5 characters not counting Team Fortress 2 being exclusive. Not to mention the very odd decision to not include Classic Sonic from Generations when Sumo asked because Sega outright wanted a time-travel explanation on how Sonic and Classic Sonic were racing each other. You know, compared to Mario Kart where we have 5 baby versions of 5 notable characters racing against their older selves just because.

Yeah I guess that my theory is, is that sega (and similarly other publishers working with foreign developers), end up doing things like this because they dont trust outsiders to "get" their brand so they put them under crazy guidlines that they would apply more leniently to local developers. I'm not saying this is fact, but I'd be willing to believe a japanese developer might've been able to better negotiate sega out of some of the weirder decisions. Although, I imagine any smaller developer would be scared to push back on sega too much and risk hurting their proffesional relationships, I just cant help but wonder if its a factor. Sega seems more willing to colaberate with american teams nowadays, with the idw comics and the paramount films, so now might work out better than before, idk. Japanese companies tend to be very insular but i dont want to come across as steriotyping or whatever.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly I don't think there's any particular reason for Toad's exclusion other than just...priorities.

• Mario takes precedence over everyone for obvious reasons, and Luigi was both important, and an easy clone.
• Peach and Bowser definitely makes sense as the next two additions, and they even tried to get Bowser in sooner. Doctor Mario was a clone for funzies.
• Wario was going to be the next addition in Melee, but there wasn't time so here he is in Brawl.
• Rosalina & Luma was added on as an idea for a puppet fighter moreso than "which Mario character should be added next". For that category, I think Bowser Jr. fit that role as much as Toad did, especially coming in the wake of the New Super Mario Bros. series.
• Piranha Plant was added as a surprise pick, so it's likely that if he didn't land on the mook, we wouldn't have gotten a Mario character at all. Well, except for Daisy, a clone added by popular demand.

Mario's roster is super stacked, and aside from Rosalina & Luma and Piranha Plant, who were picked for reasons other than noteriety, there's always a ton of characters that are just as notable as Toad. Now is no exception, which could easily mean that he could get skipped over yet again, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a shot either.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Rosalina & Luma was added on as an idea for a puppet fighter moreso than "which Mario character should be added next".

On that exact note, that's pretty much why we got Jr. with the whole Clown Car gimmick.

We know for a fact, going by both Brawl and Smash For's design documents that Sakurai uses "themes" for drafting newcomer concepts. So it was both Rosalina and Jr. being higher priority based on what they could do more than "who should be next in line". Not just Rosalina.

Which means....as I said before, Sakurai clearly doesn't see as much with Toad regardless of whether he's "next in line" or not.

 

[superprincess]

Toad isn't particularly flashy but this isn't a good summary of his abilities. He has a unique body shape. That alone gives him potential for unique normals right there.

I'm sure you heard the ideas for his specials, and they didn't seem to convince you. But I don't think you're coming at this with an open mind.

Weird assumption. I'm willing to hear ideas out. Preferably ones that aren't the tired "turnip but not like Peach" or "use Mario's leftovers".

 

[Guynamednelson]

which could easily mean that he could get skipped over yet again,

At the same time, most of the core Mario cast is already in, so the wheel has to land on Toad sooner or later

• If you consider the core Mario cast to be the characters who are playable in spinoffs most often, the only remaining characters besides Toad are Toadette whom most people think would just be an alt/echo of Toad, and Waluigi
• They could do another enemy again, but I kind of feel like it wouldn't have the same novelty factor to do it again after Plant
• Aside from characters who've been regularly recurring for decades now, there's Geno who's got that remake to possibly make his inclusion seem more worthwhile to Nintendo execs, and Pauline from her Odyssey revival

...or they could do what Brawl did and have the closest it has to Mario newcomers represent Wario and DK games instead.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

At the same time, most of the core Mario cast is already in, so the wheel has to land on Toad sooner or later

• If you consider the core Mario cast to be the characters who are playable in spinoffs most often, the only remaining characters besides Toad are Toadette whom most people think would just be an alt/echo of Toad, and Waluigi
• They could do another enemy again, but I kind of feel like it wouldn't have the same novelty factor to do it again after Plant
• Aside from characters who've been regularly recurring for decades now, there's Geno who's got that remake to possibly make his inclusion seem more worthwhile to Nintendo execs, and Pauline from her Odyssey revival

...or they could do what Brawl did and have the closest it has to Mario newcomers represent Wario and DK games instead.

Yeah the main reason why I brought up Wario is because he kind of had his spot reserved for him back before WarioWare existed, and he would definitely have been considered a Mario character at that point.

Still though, I'd say the pool for Mario inspirations is quite large. There's Toad, obviously, and Pauline will likely be considered for her recent noteriety, as well as Waluigi and Geno for popular demand. There's also King Boo and Professor E. Gadd from the pretty quickly growing Luigi's Mansion series who both have very strong hooks for creating a moveset around. Strong arguments can be made for all of them, which makes the prospect of Toad's inclusion a big question mark. Going forward, I wouldn't be surprised if Kamek and Nabbit were added to the pile since they seem to be increasing in use.

I do actually agree with you overall, but I don't think the argument really helps him at the moment, and it's going to be quite a while before we reach a point where he's one of few real options.

 

[Ivander]

I mean, one of the starts that you could do for Toad to begin with is make him the fastest Mario character. Sure, it's not a recurring trait aside from Super Mario Bros. 2/USA and Super Mario 3D World(and one could say Double Dash considering him and Toadette were the only ones able to use a Golden Mushroom aside from King Boo and Petey Pirahna), but it's something notable that can help him stand out from the other Mario characters.

 

[CannonStreak]

I mean, one of the starts that you could do for Toad to begin with is make him the fastest Mario character. Sure, it's not a recurring trait aside from Super Mario Bros. 2/USA and Super Mario 3D World(and one could say Double Dash considering him and Toadette were the only ones able to use a Golden Mushroom aside from King Boo and Petey Pirahna), but it's something notable that can help him stand out from the other Mario characters.

That kind of reminds me of that fake cheat for Melee where it said Toad was unlockable and was very fast in the game, you know what I mean?

 

[Ivander]

The Land trilogy is complete! Now is there hope for Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64? And maybe the Donkey Kong Country GBA trilogy?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The Land trilogy is complete! Now is there hope for Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64? And maybe the Donkey Kong Country GBA trilogy?

Don't forget DKC GBC (the one I had). :V

 

[Ivander]

Don't forget DKC GBC (the one I had). :V

And I also forgot Donkey Kong 94. Man, why do we still have so much not on NSO?

 

[Laniv]

Weird assumption. I'm willing to hear ideas out. Preferably ones that aren't the tired "turnip but not like Peach" or "use Mario's leftovers".

Mycokinesis: Summoning and controlling mushrooms to use as a general theme. Bouncing on a big mushroom to recover, summoning harmful mushrooms to slide along the ground, maybe using that mushroom status effect on sweetspots involving his head... maybe bring in the counterattack where if you hit him, he releases spores? There's a lot to be had with that. And you can supplement that by, as others have mentioned, making him fast and strong, but with poor jumping and fairly stubby attacks. (And before people say "fast and strong with bad jumps would just make him Little Mac again," Toad would actually have a functional air game and recovery.)

And you might call it, "using Mario's leftovers", but I call it, "using abilities he's been associated with for years". I mean, they kinda did a similar thing with Rosalina.

 

[ninjahmos]

Maybe Toad could use the Propeller Suit as his Up+B.

 

[Kirbeh]

I honestly don't care if Toad wound up being somewhat derivative with a turnip here or a fireball there. A Mario staple using Mario staples from the games they appeared in just makes sense.

And it's not like Smash doesn't make stuff up all the time anyway. Summoning mushrooms like Laniv 's idea could work too for example. That's technically a recurring ability if you count spin off titles.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

And I also forgot Donkey Kong 94. Man, why do we still have so much not on NSO?

We're still missing one of Wario's greatest achievement.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I kind of disagree with a Toad that uses powerups as a mechanic being considered scraping the bottom of the barrel just to give him something to be able to do, because while I get that it's not a Toad specific powerset, it's also a major mechanic of the franchise that Mario just can't make use of in Smash. And because he doesn't, Toad is one of the few characters who could (the other being Nabbit who makes both more and less sense in the role) since the others either have their own thing going on, or are based on Mario.

In this sense, I think a moveset base like this would be quite valuable to add.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I mean OOT/ EOW is pretty recent!

But the BOTW and TOTK version is larger and actually climbable. It's model would therefore work significantly better for this purpose.

Hyrule Warriors has a completly diffrent Gameplay from Smash sure its fun and also has good multiplayer however its missing the Dreamfight component from smash completly if they somehow add a custom mode i could maybe say its adequate!

But Consindering we have neither A Zelda MAker, Nor A fighter, Nor enough action figures i really need to somehow make my own lil zelda stories!
I live and breathe zelda! And i like telling stories through Fighting game fights! I dunno its fun!

Also hyrule warriors is still missing a lot of 2d Rep and playable enemys and regular bosses Tbh!

Now a Hyrule warriors 2 would still be neat dont get me wrong!

A Hyrule Warriors sequel (or better yet a second Hyrule Warriors because we had Age of Calamity and all) will probably happen due to its massive success so far. Both financially and critically. Age of Calamity is the best selling Warriors game to date for example.

Mario and Zelda are guaranteed to have spin offs anyway. These games sell like hot cakes. Also Echoes of Wisdom was originally a Zelda dungeon maker game. I think this concept will be played with in the future, using the very same engine and art style you're so fond.

Personally one of my main wishes for a Zelda spin off is an actual RPG. Weird how there are so many Mario RPGs but the one series it makes the most sense for hasn't had this yet.

Edit: the Toad discussion

Catching up a little now, Toad is my actual number one pick too for a Mario newcomer. But am not all too confident in him considering his current status. Ultimate also included Toad in the throws of Peach, which is also... unfortunate.

As for a potential move set, I think the power up idea is cute. Captain Toad is a little more feasible on his own however, and a mix of both is also good. But Toad allows for quite some creative liberty too. I mean, he's a toadstool. Spores like the Toad Guard for example was 100% made up. Play with that.

Also he's THE symbol of the series y'know, a toadstool. So play with that. Have him represent the Super Mushroom, the most famous Mario power up. Maybe make his normal move set like a typical lightweight , like for example Squirtle. But via use of the Super Mushroom he becomes bigger and stronger (like a little heavier than Mario maybe but also slower). That's already quite a concept for a fighter. Of course, in my own humble and personal opinion.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

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Am cool with Toad joining the game if he plays anything like in this smash mod. Love the way his side special Mario kart move controls and his propeller recovery etc.

 

[ninjahmos]

Maybe Toad could use the Propeller Suit as his Up+B.

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Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

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Am cool with Toad joining the game if he plays anything like in this smash mod. Love the way his side special Mario kart move controls and his propeller recovery etc.

Oh my God…

 

[Speed Weed]

Yeah I guess that my theory is, is that sega (and similarly other publishers working with foreign developers), end up doing things like this because they dont trust outsiders to "get" their brand so they put them under crazy guidlines that they would apply more leniently to local developers. I'm not saying this is fact, but I'd be willing to believe a japanese developer might've been able to better negotiate sega out of some of the weirder decisions. Although, I imagine any smaller developer would be scared to push back on sega too much and risk hurting their proffesional relationships, I just cant help but wonder if its a factor. Sega seems more willing to colaberate with american teams nowadays, with the idw comics and the paramount films, so now might work out better than before, idk. Japanese companies tend to be very insular but i dont want to come across as steriotyping or whatever.

Admittedly I would be pretty happy with a Japan-made roster if it means we get to see some of the cool weird **** that likely wouldn't get in on a western-made game. Stuff like Sakura Wars, Virtual-ON, Dynamite Cop and what not. Some of these IPs that are really cool and interesting and would really bring some flavor but are really moreso revered by the Japanese side of the company

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Toad has a lot of stuff he could do.
Base stats can be pulled directly from Mario games. He's fast, he hits hard, his jump is poor. Plus he has short range since his limbs are so stubby, and I suppose he'd headbutt a lot. That's already pretty specific, there's not many characters like that.
Then with specials you can go crazy actually, Toad is a pretty generalist character and you have the whole Mario series to pull stuff from.

What I'd do with his specials is something like this:

Neutral B - '?' Block: summons a '?' block which grants Toad a power-up. You use the power-up by pressing B and you discard it by taunting. If you get hit even once, you lose the power-up, like in Mario games. I'd make it not actually random, you'd get a different power-up depending on how long you keep B pressed. Since it takes a little while to set it up and it's very easy to lose the power-up, I suppose this is something you'd mostly want to use to keep your advantage state when you're already in it. You could give him the Ice Flower to stun opponents, the Bubble power-up from Wonder to deal vertical knockback facilitating combos and maybe you could also use the bubbles as platforms like in Bubble Bobble, you could pull one from Mario Kart and get the Golden Mushroom which propels Toad horizontally at a very high speed for crazy edgeguards, maybe you could keep B charged all the way to get the Elephant power-up which would make Toad do a crazy powerful attack with his trunk and immediately go back to normal (would be mostly for free-for-alls, like Roy or Diddy's fully charged neutral Bs). Stuff like that.

Down B - Counter Throw: awful name, but bear with me... This would be a counter. As a throwback to Toad's previous Smash role as Peach's counterattack. But it would also be a command grab (I think only the Mii Brawler currently has a counter that's a command grab), and Toad would lift the countered opponent on his head. But it would also be a cargo throw, because Toad can carry his opponent around for a little while before throwing them. Like a SMB2 monster. Would probably be a pretty toxic move!

Up B - Propeller Mushroom: kinda has to be it. It would cover a ton of vertical distance, but not much horizontal one, and it would leave you fairly open. Very fast on the way up and pretty slow on the way down, but you have more horizontal control while going down... Anyways, much like K. Rool, Toad would virtually always want to recover low.

Side B - Pickaxe: a simple pickaxe swing, from Captain Toad. It makes a little shockwave. If there's items on the ground next to Toad, they get thrown in the air. If used in the air, it's a spike. A simple special but the only move in Toad's arsenal with considerable range.

Final Smash - Bad Luck: this is just for fun. Toad hops on his kart and sprints forward, bringing the first opponent he catches into a cutscene. Many Toads are racing around a kart circuit, picking up the Mario Kart '?' items. The opponent gets dropped into an empty kart that's getting near the finish line! Suddenly, the opponent gets hit by a blue shell and is blown up in the air. As soon as he touches the ground again, he trips on a banana peel and is hit by three red shells, all while the Toads in the karts reach the finish line. The opponent also gets hit by a Chain Chomp. Finally, a lighting bolt falls down from the sky and miniaturizes the opponent and his kart, who then get run over by the (Star-powered) Toad you're playing as and blast off over the finish line, in last place.
It happened to you!

Make regular Toad, Captain Toad, Toadette and Toadsworth all share a slot for the ultimate Toad fanservice, add a Captain Toad stage that rotates like Spiral Mountain and I think he'd make for a decent addition to the roster at least.

 

[Garteam]

I missed some discussion on secondary reps for third-party franchises in Smash pushing out new franchises owned by the same company, but I really hope we see the "each third-party company can only get one character per wave of newcomers" rule go the way of the Dodo generally. It made a little more sense when third parties were rarely added and you had to spread the love a little more, but that's not the state of the world post-Ultimate.

It also seems a little arbitrary when you try to apply this rule. Alucard and Bomberman have very little in common beyond a common corporate owner, but people still act as if these characters are in very direct competition. Shadow, Arle, and Kiryu would all appeal to vastly different audiences, but they're grouped together because they're Sega. It's just a very reductionist way to handle unique characters.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I don't usually do this, but if you are strong smash fan, I really do recommend checking this video out.

Not the biggest fan of Melee but its aesthetics really do stick out in making it a unique title.

Hope when Smash 6 rolls round, it also comes with an aesthetic/art-style that make its stand. Maybe going for a cel-shaded style like those mods

 

[Gengar84]

I missed some discussion on secondary reps for third-party franchises in Smash pushing out new franchises owned by the same company, but I really hope we see the "each third-party company can only get one character per wave of newcomers" rule go the way of the Dodo generally. It made a little more sense when third parties were rarely added and you had to spread the love a little more, but that's not the state of the world post-Ultimate.

It also seems a little arbitrary when you try to apply this rule. Alucard and Bomberman have very little in common beyond a common corporate owner, but people still act as if these characters are in very direct competition. Shadow, Arle, and Kiryu would all appeal to vastly different audiences, but they're grouped together because they're Sega. It's just a very reductionist way to handle unique characters.

Yeah, I completely agree with this. It’s especially bad with a company like Microsoft that just buys out other companies. RARE, Activision/Blizzard, and Bethesda, for example, don’t really have much to do with each other beyond being owned by Microsoft and all have vastly different histories before that. Even just Activision and Blizzard before the merger appealed to very different audiences. I do still think there should be a general goal of varied representation but it shouldn’t be a hard rule. If one company has multiple characters that would be great in Smash, there shouldn’t be a barrier to get more than one.

 

[RileyXY1]

I missed some discussion on secondary reps for third-party franchises in Smash pushing out new franchises owned by the same company, but I really hope we see the "each third-party company can only get one character per wave of newcomers" rule go the way of the Dodo generally. It made a little more sense when third parties were rarely added and you had to spread the love a little more, but that's not the state of the world post-Ultimate.

It also seems a little arbitrary when you try to apply this rule. Alucard and Bomberman have very little in common beyond a common corporate owner, but people still act as if these characters are in very direct competition. Shadow, Arle, and Kiryu would all appeal to vastly different audiences, but they're grouped together because they're Sega. It's just a very reductionist way to handle unique characters.

Especially when Ultimate already broke it by adding two unique Square Enix newcomers in FP2, with both Sephiroth and Sora getting in, although Sora was a special case as he was tacked onto the pass at the last minute due to him winning the Smash Ballot and them finally being able to get the rights to use him.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I suppose another angle you could go with Toad is making use of his species by having them help out with certain attacks like in Mario Strikers: Battle League. Like, Up Special could literally just be that cheerleader thing where a bunch of people throw someone up into the air.

 

[Gengar84]

Especially when Ultimate already broke it by adding two unique Square Enix newcomers in FP2, with both Sephiroth and Sora getting in, although Sora was a special case as he was tacked onto the pass at the last minute due to him winning the Smash Ballot and them finally being able to get the rights to use him.

Sora’s kind of a special case too because while his games are made by Square-Enix, he and Kingdom Hearts are owned by Disney. So he’s kind of a Square character and kind of not.

 

[Jave]

Toad of all characters getting the "He has no chance because he does nothing" treatment is wild to me. There's so much they could draw stuff from that you could add Toad and Toadette as separate characters with completely unique movesets.

Also, as far as 1st Party characters go, (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) Toad is probably the character that has been in the most games that isn't in Smash yet. His importance is nothing to sneeze at.

The people claiming Toad has no moveset potential were probably the same people that said Villager, Pac-Man and Little Mac had no moveset potential before Smash 4 came along.

 

[Gengar84]

Toad of all characters getting the "He has no chance because he does nothing" treatment is wild to me. There's so much they could draw stuff from that you could add Toad and Toadette as separate characters with completely unique movesets.

Also, as far as 1st Party characters go, (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) Toad is probably the character that has been in the most games that isn't in Smash yet. His importance is nothing to sneeze at.

The people claiming Toad has no moveset potential were probably the same people that said Villager, Pac-Man and Little Mac had no moveset potential before Smash 4 came along.

You would have to get a little more creative with Toad’s moveset as he doesn’t have as immediately obvious a skill set that directly translates to Smash as many other characters. That’s not really a deal breaker though as characters like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer have shown. It could be fun to see what they can come up with. Maybe play into his mushroom origin by having spore based attacks like he already does for his counter. The turnip idea like Peach has works too. Since he runs the power up house in Mario 3, a power-up based set could work too as others have brought up.

 

[BuckleyTim]

"Toad shouldn't be in smash because what would they do for him" - ineffective argument, most likely does not matter since this series has been pushing square pegs into round hole since the minute in smash 64's development when they went "what if the racecar driver did big fire punches"

"Toad shouldn't be in smash because I don't care about him" - god-tier argument, what are they gonna do against the unstoppable tide of indifference

 

[Gorgonzales]

I don't usually do this, but if you are strong smash fan, I really do recommend checking this video out.

Not the biggest fan of Melee but its aesthetics really do stick out in making it a unique title.

Hope when Smash 6 rolls round, it also comes with an aesthetic/art-style that make its stand. Maybe going for a cel-shaded style like those mods

Just watched it. Loved every bit.

Melee really does feel like a product of its time in the best way possible, and the sinister undertones of the game with the whole focus on computer graphics and surreal setpieces makes it stand the test of time from later releases. In an age where every Smash game feels less distinct from the last, it's really refreshing to see a deep dive analysis into what made the aesthetics of the older titles click.

One aspect of Melee's "off"-looking character designs that I find fascinating to no end is how it was more or less the one game that tried to render all of these characters in high quality without having a standardized base to reference. There was no Mario Sunshine to reference Mario's proportions and facial structure, so he's based moreso on N64-era renders of him. DK draws most of his inspiration from Rare's artwork of him and DKC, since Jungle Beat hadn't yet existed to provide his standard appearance. Link feels like what Ocarina of Time would've looked like in an alternate universe where it released on the GCN instead of N64.

This extends to the stages too. Seeing Peach's Castle in a more realistic manner after experiencing it in the bright palette of Mario 64 is really interesting! What's even more interesting to me are the subtle changes they decided to make to its layout, not just for gameplay purposes but aesthetically too.

There's a new water grate at the bottom right of the castle where the metal door (that leads to the basement) was in the original. The horseshoe bend path in the original has been changed into a three-way intersection (four if you count the bridge) with a nice little flower patch in the middle. Keep in mind, you don't even see these details during gameplay. But they are there.

One of my favorite parts of Melee's stages are the liberties they take, too. Fountain of Dreams kind of had to do this since the OG version leaves a lot to the imagination, but it still looks like a fantastical marvel regardless. It's the most "magical" looking stage in Melee, but even then it still somehow retains that Y2K era grit?? If that makes sense? For as colorful as it is, the palette still feels a little washed out; they held back on cranking up the saturation all the way to preserve the stage's "Melee-ness".

Likewise with Icicle Mountain interpreting Ice Climber's stages in a more modern light, replacing the fun blocks with shoddy-looking scaffolding. The game also lists its greater location as "Infinite Glacier", which I think about a lot. It's so raw and that little line of text adds a layer of mystique I never thought possible to this stage.

My favorite example of this, however, is Rainbow Cruise. In Mario 64 it's just a jumbled collection of platforming assets n' crap floating in the middle of nowhere. Almost like the devs threw their hands up cause they needed a 15th stage and were strapped for time, so they threw leftover platforms and test assets together into one level and called it a day.

Melee's version, however, contextualizes this mess in a very interesting way. For starters, the platform layouts is a lot more... eloquent? Organized? It's still got an element of chaos to it, but elements like the flying ships and floating platforms have a lot of new regal-looking patterns and embellishments on them. The original's setpieces consist of mainly blunt stone platforms that get the job of "something to stand on" done and nothing more. Melee's platforms do away with those, because Melee is next-gen. It has checkered platforms whose bottom sides are tapered.

Melee also not only adds a mountain range to this area, bringing this obstacle course a lot closer to ground level but still dizzyingly high up, but a village. A village that only appears in Melee, not Ultimate.

That damn village.

When you think about it, it's so out of place compared to what the rest of the stage is all about. In this sea of fantastical flying ships and ornate platforms suspended in thin air, you have this humble collection of houses just sitting there on a cliffside that doesn't even exist in the original game.

It's tiny. It's an incredibly minor detail. Compared to everything else going on in this chaotic stage, it's easy to miss. They could have just not added it. It doesn't have to be there.

But it is there. Someone on the development team made a conscious effort to place that tiny little town there on that massive mountainside. Which begs the question of, why? Why is it there? Why did Melee's developers decide this little additional detail was necessary?

It's so fascinating to me. What was the thought process there? Did they think it would look good, or that the stage just needed that little extra something? Was it approved by Mario 64's staff? Could this village have even been in line with what the developers of Mario 64 envisioned for the stage in the original game? Was Melee's Rainbow Cruise what the devs of the original stage intended but couldn't accomplish due to technical and/or time constraints? Mario 64 itself is a very enigmatic game with areas that leave a whole lot up to the imagination. It isn't likely, but to think that this village could've been an interactable sub-area of Rainbow Cruise's main stage, possibly accessible by warp pipe or other means, just piques my interest to no end.





Melee is just cool, man.
It was made in the right place, on the right hardware, at the right time. There isn't much else like it.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah, I'm hoping that, like Melee, Smash 6 will give itself an identity of its own, which I also hope includes a soundtrack consisting mainly of rock and jazz-funk.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I missed some discussion on secondary reps for third-party franchises in Smash pushing out new franchises owned by the same company, but I really hope we see the "each third-party company can only get one character per wave of newcomers" rule go the way of the Dodo generally. It made a little more sense when third parties were rarely added and you had to spread the love a little more, but that's not the state of the world post-Ultimate.

It also seems a little arbitrary when you try to apply this rule. Alucard and Bomberman have very little in common beyond a common corporate owner, but people still act as if these characters are in very direct competition. Shadow, Arle, and Kiryu would all appeal to vastly different audiences, but they're grouped together because they're Sega. It's just a very reductionist way to handle unique characters.

Fans are probably worried about the limit of how many third-party characters a company have in a Smash game. In Brawl, it was just one, in 4 it went up to two, and in Ultimate it went up to three (with Capcom, SEGA, Konami, and Square-Enix having that many). The next one could be raised to four and assuming the others come back, fans will probably be fighting over which character should be the last one to be added.

 

[PeridotGX]

I started this discussion, I think it's time I post what I've written down. It's a big list, so to give people time to digest it I'm going to break it down into chunks. This post is going to be Mario (specifically stages with the mushroom icon, not associated series like Donkey Kong)

Spoiler: Mario - 2D Platformers

• nothing to minimize data

Spoiler: Mario Kart

• nothing to minimize data

Spoiler: Other Mario Spinoffs

• nothing to minimize data

This shouldn't have taken so long and the moment has passed, but I have the stages from the Mario spinoff series. I'm going for a Melee-adjacent thing - most series get two new stages (some get more and some get less of course), for more variety. I'm not expecting this in Smash 6 of course.

Spoiler: Donkey Kong

• Forest Flurry (Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze)

A grassy hill stage from Mario, followed by a jungle stage from Donkey Kong? Daring, I know. I genuinely contemplated skipping Tropical Freeze for a second Returns themed stage, but Freeze missed the boat two games in a row, I almost feel bad for it so I decided to throw it a bone. My first choice was Mangrove Cove, but it barely had the frigid feeling that makes Tropical Freeze stand out so I went with a stage towards the tail end of the game. As far as layout is concerned, I kind of expect this stage to be “more of the same” of Kongo Jungle 64 and Kongo Falls. It isn’t redundant if we get rid of the original!​

• Mine Cart Madness (Donkey Kong Country)

Like I said in the first post, when a series was getting multiple stages I tried to make at least one of them come from an older game in the series. I considered Gangplank Galleon to represent DKC2 and to give K. Rool a home stage, but come on. The mine cart stages are almost as iconic to the Kongs as their jungles, and it’s borderline criminal we don’t have one yet (this being the perfect stage for a spamton spirit battle is probably coincidental). Functionally, I’m expecting something similar to Yggdrasil’s Altar - you fight on one large minecart, and more minecarts to serve as platforms come and go.​

• Construction Zone (Mario VS Donkey Kong)

Don’t let the name fool you. Sure, this is partially to represent the recently resurrected Mario VS Donkey Kong series, but it’s mostly an excuse to have another shot at a stage based on the original Donkey Kong - with an original layout to make the stage playable. Mini Marios would appear as stage-specific items, and Donkey Kong (either the genuine article or a mini, i don’t really know) would show up to cause mayhem.​

• Jungle Japes (Donkey Kong Country, returning from Smash Melee)

​

We already have a DK Jungle stage, yes, but it’s not the climate you expect from one. I think that leaves enough room to keep this stage around. Jungle Japes has been in every game since Melee and is more distinct than the others, giving it the edge to stick around in my opinion.​

Spoiler: Yoshi

• Crafted World (Yoshi’s Crafted World)

Ok, at this point I think I can say that a series’s first stage is going to be less daring than it’s second. You have to eat your veggies before you can have the pie. Crafted World is the newest Yoshi game, it’s really obvious. I’m imagining the stage layout looks a lot like the Wooly World stage (may it rest in peace), with the gimmick being that the stage “flips” every so often, mirroring the layout.​

• Rafael’s Moon (Yoshi’s Island)

The second Yoshi stage would obviously come from the original SNES game, and this seems like a fairly iconic setpiece. I considered the final boss arena, but there are already two stages that involve a giant bowser in the background I think a third might be redundant. This stage’s gimmick is obvious - it’s a fully cylindrical stage that’s center of gravity is at the middle of the stage. Asteroids would float by to serve as platforms. Similar to how the Construction Zone stage is kind of a do-over of 75M, this is kinda a do-over of the Mario Galaxy stage.​

• Super Happy Tree (Yoshi's Story, returning from 64)

I didn’t want the returning stage lineup to be “Oops, All Melee”, (which pains me because I love the Super Mario World stage), and we already have a Yoshi’s Island stage, so Super Happy Tree is kinda forced to be the returning Yoshi stage. It would be touched up graphically to be up to modern standards, but honestly it already looks better than most of the other 64 stages.​

Spoiler: Wario

• Cyber Games (Get It Together)

Sorry to all the Wario fans at home, I know **** all about Wario so I don’t have much to say here. I went for a Get It Together stage because the cyber aesthetic seemed a lot more interesting than the tropical (I have a lot of island stages). As for its gimmick - it would basically just be “WarioWare Inc. 2”. It’s the obvious choice for a WarioWare stage, and a new take on it seems more interesting than bringing back the original for a fourth round.​

• Golden Pyramid (Wario Land 4)

People want Wario Land representation, so giving it a stage seems reasonable and Wario Land 4 gets rereleased more than Shake It so I went with a stage from the former. I still don’t know much about Wario, so I don’t have much to say about this one either. It could be a giant stage, you could have hazards from all the iconic Wario enemies I know about, who knows. Wario doesn't have Original 12 priviledge so he doesn't get a retro stage​

 

[ninjahmos]

OK, hear me out…

What if they brought back this version of Mute City from Melee?

 

[Ivander]

OK, hear me out…

What if they brought back this version of Mute City from Melee?

I mean, for the most part, Port Town Aero Dive is just the same stage, but with a different aesthetic/background and brighter lighting. Like sure, F-Zero having more stages would be nice, but with how many people complain about the Mario grass stages, I don't think bringing back a stage that has the same gimmick as another stage just to give a franchise more stages isn't any better.

And sure, Melee Brinstar and Norfair don't fare any better, but at least those two are differentiated by the fact that Norfair also has lava coming from the sides and the background whereas Brinstar only has lava coming from the bottom. Whereas both Mute City and Port Town have alot of the same sections/hazards, with car hazards coming from the background, the sides and even cars racing up from the bottom.

Regardless, I would've had Zebes from Smash 64 take Melee Brinstar's place to help differentiate the differences between that and Norfair as Zebes is a bigger stage compared to both Brinstar and Norfair.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

OK, hear me out…

What if they brought back this version of Mute City from Melee?

I prefer this stage over Big Blue, i wish it was picked instead.

Back on the topic of Sonic and Sega, I would really like Sonic to get a second character in Smash but it is sort of a shame that it tends to cannibalize discussion of other Sega characters. It comes around every so often but I think say, in contrast to Capcom, you don’t hear much resistance toward a second Sonic character over prospecting new series the way you do concern about Chun-Li over Monster Hunter, DMC etc.

Personally I’d be hella game to see Sega and Capcom get two new characters next game, one from a currently represented series and one from a new one. Whatever those may be. I don’t really care much about trying to do a company balancing act when you have some partners like Sega and Capcom that just have a wealth of valuable, individually merited choices.

…I have my preferences, if it isn’t obvious, but anything from Puyo to Yakuza to SMT, classical picks like Axel Stone or more specific, overlooked pulls like Sakura Wars are cool in my book.

Well Sega does have three playable franchises in smash right now, i kinda prefer Sonic getting a second character before a fourth franchise getting in.

 

[SharkLord]

I missed some discussion on secondary reps for third-party franchises in Smash pushing out new franchises owned by the same company, but I really hope we see the "each third-party company can only get one character per wave of newcomers" rule go the way of the Dodo generally. It made a little more sense when third parties were rarely added and you had to spread the love a little more, but that's not the state of the world post-Ultimate.

It also seems a little arbitrary when you try to apply this rule. Alucard and Bomberman have very little in common beyond a common corporate owner, but people still act as if these characters are in very direct competition. Shadow, Arle, and Kiryu would all appeal to vastly different audiences, but they're grouped together because they're Sega. It's just a very reductionist way to handle unique characters.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that third-parties from the same company aren't mutually exclusive. We got Simon AND Richter together, on top of negotiating to get Snake back, AND getting the rights to Bomberman as an Assist Trophy. Nintendo also got the rights to Ken as a fighter, as well as Rathalos as an AT/boss.; Fighter or AT, they'd still need to go to Capcom and negotiate the rights to that content.

I'm pretty sure Nintendo doesn't put a hard limit on how many fighters a company can have; They just see a character, decide "Yo wait this guy's pretty cool actually," and go to get the rights for them.

 

[RileyXY1]

OK, hear me out…

What if they brought back this version of Mute City from Melee?

Considering that the 3DS Mute City was referred to as Mute City SNES, it was just weird that they didn't bring the Melee one back as well.