Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Among Waddle Dees]

Paper Mario wants to put a stop to the cut talk.
Anyways, to change subject, what do you guys think about Paper Mario's chances? Also imagine if we got a pair of scissors as a boss lol.

Any sign of him replacing Dr. Mario and I'm all for it. I guess it'd be fine if he doesn't, although it depends on what games he's representing.

Speaking of, why does Origami King intrigue me more every time I accidentally see footage of it? I promised myself I wouldn't look at another crafted PM title again, so why does it almost entice me so?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If Pra_Mai was Plusle & Minun, they would've used Pichu's assets to help create. However, their addition wouldn't be the same reasoning necessarily. While they are a gimmick Pokemon, they wouldn't be able to be the same kind of gimmick nor an actual clone proper due to having two at once. Which doesn't mean they'd be like Ice Climbers either. It's impossible to tell how they'd have played.

Given what the Wii can handle and how characters were being designed at the time, I kind of feel like Plussle and Minun would have been skins of each other, with their playstyle being "Pikachu, but..." kind of like Pichu. I dunno what the "but" would have been there, but I'm leaning toward it not being any sort of tandem fighter idea.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The evidence is that of what we were able to come up with:

• Pra_Mai are truncated versions of Plussle and Minun's Japanese names.
  • This is inconsistent with how other Pokémon are named in the files and Minun isn't even spelled right.
• It stands for "every player" which means it's probably the random slot.
  • IIRC the problem with this is that random isn't a slot, and it's kind of a stretch anyway.
• It stands for "every player" which means it's probably Miis.
  • IIRC, Sakurai said he decided against adding Miis in Brawl because he couldn't see how they'd fight as he did with Pac-Man and Villager. Like the previous conclusion, it's also a pretty big stretch.

Of the options that don't make any sense, I think Plussle and Minun make the most sense.

"Puramai" is a recognized abbreviation in Japanese for "plus-minus" as I found out months ago.

https://www.japandict.com/%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4

There is no doubt it's for Plusle and Minun at this point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Puramai" is a recognized abbreviation in Japanese for "plus-minus" as I found out months ago.

https://www.japandict.com/%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4

There is no doubt it's for Plusle and Minun at this point.

Oh, I don't remember reading this among our conversations. Nice. So that means we know all the Forbidden 7 quite clearly~ Or at least their original plans, heh.

 

[AlRex]

I think the “who” of the roster should come after having a strong core ethos, theme, gameplay choices to the game, aside from obvious ones like Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, DK, Samus, etc. Ultimate Deluxe can just tack on extra characters I guess, soft reboot with a focus on reworking the cast can consider both uniqueness and big names with a lot of potential, a “celebration of gaming history” or “Nintendo history” focused one can consider those factors + different points in gaming history, genres, even consoles and types of ways to play games (handheld, mobile, arcade, PC, etc.), all that. You can probably tell what options I consider more interesting.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm sooo glad that "adding each Gens' new Pikachu" didn't become a Smash staple.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Low...

BUT NOT ZERO

Mega Man Fans: Are we a joke to you?

 

[MagnesD3]

Just had a thought today of a big surprise pick that sakurai could do if were continuing off of ultimate's legacy that I had to say. I really think Malenia the Blade of Miquella would be a perfect Joker esk DLC reveal, god that would be hype, I wonder if there will be a speculation thread for her when the time comes..

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm sooo glad that "adding each Gens' new Pikachu" didn't become a Smash staple.

On the other hand them skipping Gen 3 for representation is pretty depressing.

It always feels like that era of Pokemon gets the short end of the stick in things.

 

[Arcanir]

On the other hand them skipping Gen 3 for representation is pretty depressing.

It always feels like that era of Pokemon gets the short end of the stick in things.

It would've been nice if it got a stage at least. Gen 5 also didn't get a character, but Unova Pokemon League/N's Castle was a great addition as the stage is so iconic to those games. Gen 3 didn't get that, despite having a few locales that could've fit the bill.

It at least got a boss in Brawl, so it wasn't completely ignored.

 

[Watuna4343]

Spoiler: Long.

Except that's not what happened. Sakurai didn't have development time for 7 planned characters, who were more than briefly considered. Having files in the game meant they were outright planned to be in. That makes a massive difference. Only 4 of those never became playable at any point(Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, and whatever Pra_Mai was).


Did you not read about how Cloud was fairly lucky to even be base at the time? He costs a lot to get. And we got barely any other SE content too. Actually less than last time during 4's DLC period. Combining him with Sephiroth makes a big difference because both companies get more bang for their buck. SE actually does prefer DLC, as we've known for ages.

How is Cloud so easy to keep if Sephiroth is not? They're pretty much in the same boat at this point. Cloud was never easy to keep in the first place. Hell, nobody from SE is in an easy position. Also, that's not how it works. Negotiations are extremely important. If Sakurai can't get them as base, he can't get them as base. If it's DLC or nothing, it'll be nothing until DLC becomes greenlit and he tries negotiations for again(which describes the 3rd Party Mii Costumes super well since they couldn't possibly all be negotiated for Ultimate's base at the same time as 4's DLC. Only a tiny few at most, and considering they aren't in base Ultimate, it's far more likely SE etc. said "Nope" at that time. Spirits obviously they were fine with, but we can clearly tell some stuff they definitely want as DLC-only(as does other companies, though how many isn't that clear. Sega most likely too, considering when Bayonetta was negotiated for. Anybody who was negotiated for among the Mii Costumes that are 3rd party from the Cloud/Corrin/Bayonetta packs would've been possible to be in Smash Ultimate's base but... weren't. Seems like Sakurai couldn't get them, which ties into my point. Clearly he can't get everything for base)).

And I do agree that Sora would be more likely for base too(as another user said). He's actually cheaper due to less total content, and is a massive deal on his own, being the number 1 on the ballot worldwide. He only barely got in due to luck with Sakurai wanting him, but had to actually meet with a person randomly just in time. It was actually a contrived coincidence that got him in. Even then, him being DLC again is also very likely, same with Hero.


...That applies equally to Pit as well. They're both just as important, so she's not in some special position over him anyway. Honestly, all 3 are in a great position to return.


While kind of true for Ice Climbers, it was more about characters who originated from the NES among a list and could be fun to use. The gimmick played a very important role for IC's getting in. And that "era" was never removed either, outside of literally being impossible to return them due to technical limitations. That's a key factor about their exclusion. It wasn't "era-based". Mr. Game & Watch isn't a Retro character. He's a surprise character, which is the same thing as Piranha Plant, Duck Hunt, and R.O.B. Their era wasn't the actual point behind it, though it certainly helped make them popular to some(and was an easy way to group some together, respectively, for the amiibo. However, that's taking advantage of their existence, not related to why they were added either. Funnily enough, no retro rep even if you include others, were ever removed for being irrelevant, so any "console rep" doesn't apply to that justification either).

Either way, Wii Fit Trainer was not added cause it was a Wii Era character. So it still has no relevance to her being possibly excluded. There's nothing being "moved on from". She doesn't need to necessarily have a game to continue being in. Not anymore than various characters do. In fact, the general reason for the "no longer getting games" was in specific context to clone-ish characters who were not the only character in their franchise. Which coincidentally doesn't apply to Dr. Mario since he's been kept relevant throughout the years(besides that, he's still Mario, heh). It's why cuts for "the same character, but different" aren't very common in Smash either. That's not much of a good reason to ever cut someone.

I never said Doctor Mario wasn't planned for Brawl though but him getting cut for Brawl wasn't just because of time constraints. After all it's not like if the team had more they could just have casually added 7 characters, they were still prioritized in terms of who would get in first, second etc. Doctor Mario was cut because of time constraints and because... he wasn't a high priority to get in among those 7. We know that Mewtwo was next in line to get in, so THAT is the fighter that was cut for time constraints (even though just waiting that long to get added doesn't speak of Mewtwo being very high priority itself, let alone Doctor Mario) and Roy was probably the next one right after. Doctor Mario wasn't even a high priority among the 7 cut characters, that's something irrelevant of time constraints.
And I never argued about the negotiations in regards to Sephiroth and Cloud in terms of what their chances are. I argued if Nintendo would seek them again in the first place which is why I said that their primary problem of being 3rd party characters comes into play here. After all, it's still dev time devoted to a character and that's why it's hard to imagine why Sephiroth will be that prioritized if they only have so much time to bring back even 1st party characters and it still doesn't answer just why would Sakurai and/or Nintendo want Cloud and Sephiroth as DLC again. Are they going to become the faces of DLC for Smash? Because again a time will come when the same characters are DLC again and again just gets backlash. That's why I highly highly doubt Sephiroth is coming back.
Pit is not comparable to Palutena though. The literal face of the franchise to represent said franchise vs. the deuteragonist? Of course Pit is gonna stay but Palutena is another matter. she's obviously not as important as him. Heck Zelda is less important than Link and she has a franchise named after her too, let alone Palutena who's never starred in a game by herself. Just because Pit is a lock to come back, it doesn't have anything to do with Palutena's chances.
And I never argued that the Wii Fit Trainer is absolutely getting cut and neither that she'd be replaced by Ring Fit. Heck if anything, it's far more likely imo that Wii Fit comes back rather than Ring Fit replacing her. The point still stood that she's not that high of a priority because she hasn't gotten a game in a long time (which was also a reason for why the Ice Climbers were cut for Smash 4 apart from the infamous 3DS limitations) and although she is a far more recent presence compared to the Ice Climbers, she's still a product of her time. Again all this to say that I'm not saying she's definitely getting cut, just that she's not that high a priority to come back.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm sooo glad that "adding each Gens' new Pikachu" didn't become a Smash staple.

I feel it would have been somewhat interesting:

• Plussle would have been the Brawl Pikaclone.
• Pachirisu might fit for SSB4, but I'd wager they'd pick Emolga to rep Gen 5, and because it could glide as its spin on the "Pikachu, but..." formula whereas Pachirisu doesn't quite have anything like that to differentiate itself with.
• SSBU is already spending a bunch of resources on adding Pichu, Plussle, and Emolga to the roster, so I'm kinda doubtful that they'd add yet another. That and the last two Pikaclones (Dedenne and Togedemaru) don't fit Pikachu's body type, so unless they go all the way back to Pachirisu for no reason, there's noone to pick. In this scenario, I propose that our Pokémon rep would have been Mimikyu instead of Incineroar.

...That last part is something I haven't really considered before now. A roster with Pikachu, Pikachu, but he hurts himself, Pikachu, but with math, Pikachu, but it terrorizes the sky with its gliding ability, and Definitely-Not-Pikachu is a pretty amusing prospect. Definitely not ideal, especially considering the problem with the Marths, and they'd be more different than the Pikachus (Mimikyu would be it's own thing entirely though so there's that).

 

[BrawlX10]

Just had a thought today of a big surprise pick that sakurai could do if were continuing off of ultimate's legacy that I had to say. I really think Malenia the Blade of Miquella would be a perfect Joker esk DLC reveal, god that would be hype, I wonder if there will be a speculation thread for her when the time comes..

Tbh, i could see Elden Ring comming to Nintendo Switch 2. So honestly? I think she's got a shoot, maybe not a big one, but Elden Ring is one of the most "iconic" games of the 2020s.

 

[DarthEnderX]

On the other hand them skipping Gen 3 for representation is pretty depressing.

If the choice is between missing a Gen, or having another shockrat on the roster, I'd rather miss the Gen.

 

[Kirbeh]

If the choice is between missing a Gen, or having another shockrat on the roster, I'd rather miss the Gen.

That's actually going to be our Gen 10 clone, Shockrat.

 

[Diddy Kong]

On the other hand them skipping Gen 3 for representation is pretty depressing.

It always feels like that era of Pokemon gets the short end of the stick in things.

Could indeed be. But Plusle and Minum aren't my top picks for Generation 3. That would be Blaziken. And if they'd go for a sort of clonish addition anyway, Blaziken as a Falcon clone would've worked wonders.

Better than Ganondorf at least.

The best prospect for a new Pikachu in my opinion was Alolan Raichu. That would be a nice new addition in my opinion. Probably quite overpowered in Smash however.

 

[Ivander]

That's actually going to be our Gen 10 clone, Shockrat.

I think you got a fake leak. The one for Gen 10 is Capybolta.