Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[mynameisBlade]

Even if it was from a Mech? Finally got the image to work after a lot of unnecessary work.

An entire Mech squadron! Nothing less

 

[Watuna4343]

I can see Joker, Kazuya and Simon begin unlockable for 3rd parties. Wii Fit Trainer and Min Min could also be unlockable though a bit less likely...and i suposse Isabelle could too? specially if Tom Nook gets in, i don't think she will be unlockable though, but a possibily, regardless.

Yeah I was mostly referring to first parties, but I don't think Min Min would be unlockable since the sole reps of 1st party IPs are only unlockable if they are retro/surprise picks and not contemporary ones. Isabelle I have a very hard time seeing as an unlockable. If anything, my prediction with Animal Crossing is that Tom Nook gets in and they become the 2nd franchise after Kirby to have all of their reps available from the start, just because all of them just make so much sense as Animal Crossing Reps. If Joker gets in he will definitely be unlockable too, but Idk about Kazuya and Simon, I could see them as starters, (that is if they even make it into the next game). Wii Fit Trainer is a bit of a question mark. Idk how much Sakurai classifies her as a surprise pick given that Duck Hunt was supposed to be the surprise pick of Smash 4 over her for some reason even but I guess the same argument applies to her as with Min-Min... even though she would absolutely fit as an unlockable character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Then we must go for the one character everyone will agree with! The Character....WHO IS A SWORD!

I just made that joke on GameFAQs a few years ago (Same with Keldeo)

 

[SharkLord]

I'm still willing to stand by my belief that Alear won't be in the game, and she's probably the most overrated first party character right now. Maybe the timing will have been right, if the project plan really was drafted back around the tail end of 2022 and finalized early 2023. But to put it bluntly, two years later Engage is not a particularly relevant game and Three Houses still is. Alear is not an overwhelmingly popular character and the Three Houses characters still are. So by all means Byleth (we're stuck with them, sorry Edelgard) being here still feels like a serviceable way to represent the series' contemporary presence.

I also think even if Nintendo doesn't care about the Fire Emblem backlash, Sakurai's acknowledgement of the discussion several times over makes it clear the criticism does not go unheard. On top of Everyone is Here exacerbating the perception further when I'm sure a couple of characters would have been lesser priority in transition. But I think the 'solution' moving ahead is pretty easy, especially if a new Fire Emblem character is not on the slate. The series can sustain a good 4-5 characters (echoes included) and feel well-served and more "proportional". It would still be among the most plentiful series on the roster.

Yeah, I'm also in the "missed the boat" party, just going off of FE release cycles. Fire Emblem has been releasing games every two or three years since Awakening, leaning towards two since the Fates/Echoes gap. Engage is the sole exception, and even then it was originally planned for a 2021 release. Going off of that, we're likely to see a new Fire Emblem game soon, perhaps even as a Switch 2 launch year title.

Sakurai's super secret project started around April 2022; if it's Smash, the roster was probably finalized during that year, and Engage wouldn't even be out by that point. If Sakurai's super secret project isn't Smash, development for Smash 6 is likely in it's early stages right now, and Engage will have ceded it's Hot New Release title to the next Fire Emblem. The schedule just doesn't line up for Engage.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

FEH is always relevant and makes money, so maybe Alear would be passed over for Veronica anyway. :V

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think if there is an addressing of the Byleth backlash, it won't be to have less Fire Emblem characters as much as having a better way in presenting them. Even beyond the four third party fighters before them in the pass and the speculation about Dante, a mystery Sakurai Presents outside the context of a Direct was one of the worst possible ways to do a reveal for a FE character, let alone the eighth one in Ultimate.

You do something like an Alear reveal with another fighter or at the very least in broader Nintendo Direct that has big news for those that may not be fans of them, and the subsequent antipathy is a bit reduced, even if it's not removed entirely. There were fans that weren't big on Pyra/Mythra, but they also came in the first real Nintendo Direct after the pandemic. People may have been iffy on Kazuya, yet that was largely mitigated by having a presentation that revealed Metroid Dread, Mario Party Superstars, a new Wario Ware, an Advance Wars remake, and major footage of the Breath of the Wild sequel.

Context is king and there are numerous proverbial spoons full of sugar to make the Fire Emblem fighter medicine go down much easier.

 

[Ivander]

An entire Mech squadron! Nothing less

The Mech squadron is the mercy option compared to the H.R.Giger Mech Dragon.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The Mech squadron is the mercy option compared to the H.R.Giger Mech Dragon.
View attachment 399272

this is why Intelligent Systems should talk with Monolith (Nintendo, not Warner) to bring mechons as units in a never-happening Xenoblade collab for FEH.
But that's just me who wants it.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Spoiler

View attachment 399268

Where did this artwork come from? This looks awesome!

Kotodaman

 

[SPEN18]

It seems a lot of people are simply unwilling to accept that FE has now proven itself consistently capable, on a per-game basis, of selling close to, as well as, or better than several other franchises which receive much less pushback on their status and history within the Nintendo brand. And FE has the huge advantage of having a designated developer which is committed to it as their top priority, making it a very safe guess to be relevant in any given console gen. The series has a quite long release history that is still building. Not to mention its ludicrously profitable phone app whose success was built on the backs of the popularity and marketability of its diverse and beloved cast of characters, new and old.

Simply put, FE is a steady and consistent presence on Nintendo consoles which, starting with Awakening, has also bolstered its profile to multi-million per-game sales potential. It's much more a company staple than it gets credit for and folks ought to get used to it because it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Just saying.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

And Alm and Celica?

Alm and Celica weren't new, they were remakes of an NES game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It seems a lot of people are simply unwilling to accept that FE has now proven itself consistently capable, on a per-game basis, of selling close to, as well as, or better than several other franchises which receive much less pushback on their status and history within the Nintendo brand. And FE has the huge advantage of having a designated developer which is committed to it as their top priority, making it a very safe guess to be relevant in any given console gen. The series has a quite long release history that is still building. Not to mention its ludicrously profitable phone app whose success was built on the backs of the popularity and marketability of its diverse and beloved cast of characters, new and old.

Simply put, FE is a steady and consistent presence on Nintendo consoles which, starting with Awakening, has also bolstered its profile to multi-million per-game sales potential. It's much more a company staple than it gets credit for and folks ought to get used to it because it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Just saying.

Yeah, people will easily ignore this because Engage didn't do Three Houses numbers but that game still did very well for itself. It's just that "very well for itself" isn't enough to get Three Houses out of the spotlight and at this point, nothing will, Three Houses is eternal.

But it still keeps Fire Emblem's momentum as a million-unit seller and that's not something people should ignore just because they don't like it.

 

[Ivander]

Alm and Celica weren't new, they were remakes of an NES game.

They still had a new game, just like Ike did.

and at this point, nothing will, Three Houses discourse is eternal.

Fixed.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Fixed.

For the discourse to be eternal, the game needs to be eternal as well, so my original post still stands

 

[BritishGuy54]

Re: Unlockables

I think is like… the perfect first unlockable. The best choice to ease new players into unlocking characters.

Re: Fire Emblem

I think rotating casts necessitate newcomers. It’s part of why Fire Emblem, Pokémon, and Xenoblade all got newcomers in Ultimate. And if Mother was still going on, we’d all be complaining about the amount of Ness clones.

And with Ultimate dedicating so much time to veterans, legacy characters, and third parties, it’s clear why Nintendo’s priorities ended up with more recent characters to mitigate the imbalance, hence why more ‘static casts’ got screwed over in Ultimate, like your Waluigi or Bandana Dee.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I repeat it again, if Fire Emblem Heroes do it's 1st TRUE crossover banner, it will be with Xenoblade. (the most fitting one, and FE fans may overlap with XB fans)
Even then, I'm not sure if Intelligent Systems it's like Stephen Hillenburg (rest in peace), and has prohibited crossover in their gacha, for being a dumb idea.

 

[Ivander]

I repeat it again, if Fire Emblem Heroes do it's 1st TRUE crossover banner, it will be with Xenoblade. (the most fitting one, and FE fans may overlap with XB fans
Even then, I'm not sure if Intelligent Systems it's like Stephen Hillenburg (rest in peace), and has prohibited crossover in their gacha, for being a dumb idea.

I mean, the amount of characters not in Fire Emblem Heroes yet is probably one of the reasons why they haven't done a crossover for FEH. Especially with some people still hoping their favorite character will get in at some point.

Also, don't need to worry about a Persona 5 crossover ending the game if you don't do any crossovers at all.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I mean, the amount of characters not in Fire Emblem Heroes yet is probably one of the reasons why they haven't done a crossover for FEH. Especially with some people still hoping their favorite character will get in at some point.

Also, don't need to worry about a Persona 5 crossover ending the game if you don't do any crossovers at all.

yeah! is more believable to see Touma Akagi, Yashiro Tsurugi and the people from the Fire Emblem Cipher card game; than stuff like Link or Shulk. (or any Nintendo franchise that falls in the "Anime Swordfighter" spectrum)

 

[BritishGuy54]

Could Alear not make it in? Probably.

There probably is no better time than to either opt for an older character (e.g. Lyn), or even skip out on Engage.

Fire Emblem will likely see a DLC character anyway.

With the lack of Metroid news this month, I’m starting to be unsure on , and might start looking at instead.

Perhaps prioritising as my preferred echo veteran (other than ) might be my move to make.

So it’s coming down to a combo of either /Alear or / for me now. Wonderful.

 

[Ivander]

There probably is no better time than to either opt for an older character (e.g. Lyn), or even skip out on Engage.

Why not use Engage to opt for an older character?

"We have chosen Leif as our next rep for Fire Emblem, who originally appeared in Fire Emblem Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776, but has recently appeared in the new Fire Emblem Engage."

 

[NotGenerico]

I think if there is an addressing of the Byleth backlash, it won't be to have less Fire Emblem characters as much as having a better way in presenting them. Even beyond the four third party fighters before them in the pass and the speculation about Dante, a mystery Sakurai Presents outside the context of a Direct was one of the worst possible ways to do a reveal for a FE character, let alone the eighth one in Ultimate.

You do something like an Alear reveal with another fighter or at the very least in broader Nintendo Direct that has big news for those that may not be fans of them, and the subsequent antipathy is a bit reduced, even if it's not removed entirely. There were fans that weren't big on Pyra/Mythra, but they also came in the first real Nintendo Direct after the pandemic. People may have been iffy on Kazuya, yet that was largely mitigated by having a presentation that revealed Metroid Dread, Mario Party Superstars, a new Wario Ware, an Advance Wars remake, and major footage of the Breath of the Wild sequel.

Context is king and there are numerous proverbial spoons full of sugar to make the Fire Emblem fighter medicine go down much easier.

It doesn't help that Byleth's trailer makes it extremely obvious they're joining Smash as soon as they're shown.

There's a semi-popular theory that Byleth's reveal got delayed and that it was meant to be shown at the Game Awards. I honestly think that might have gone a little better. Not only would it have fooled people into thinking it was something like a DLC announcement, Three Houses actually won the Player's Voice award on 2019.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Why not use Engage to opt for an older character?

"We have chosen Leif as our next rep for Fire Emblem, who originally appeared in Fire Emblem Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776, but has recently appeared in the new Fire Emblem Engage."

This is how Veronica still wins. :V

 

[Ivander]

This is how Veronica still wins. :V

I mean I have stated it quite a large number of times whenever I brought up Veronica before.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I mean I have stated it quite a large number of times whenever I brought up Veronica before.

I mean, I've mentioned before I see her as a darkhorse pick, so we're on the same wavelength there.

I just also think there's a distinct possibility Sakurai opts to avoid adding a new character unless Nintendo requires it for DLC a third time. :V

 

[Thegameandwatch]

The equivalent of Three Houses discourse in this community is both Fire Emblem in general and suggestions for cutting characters.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

The Mech squadron is the mercy option compared to the H.R.Giger Mech Dragon.
View attachment 399272

Since we are on this topic some of the music from that chapter would be pretty cool.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[Louie G.]

With the lack of Metroid news this month, I’m starting to be unsure on , and might start looking at instead.

I'm confused at this. What does the lack of news mean for Zero Suit Samus that it doesn't for Dark Samus? Are you banking on a Prime 2 and/or 3 remaster?

Also yes, I'm pretty certain that Lucina is safe. She's incredibly popular both in and out of Smash and is, other than Ken, the echo fighter who plays the most different from her source character with minimal effort involved.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah, people will easily ignore this because Engage didn't do Three Houses numbers but that game still did very well for itself. It's just that "very well for itself" isn't enough to get Three Houses out of the spotlight and at this point, nothing will, Three Houses is eternal.

But it still keeps Fire Emblem's momentum as a million-unit seller and that's not something people should ignore just because they don't like it.

Thing is Engage doing worse than TH was entirely expected and probably no matter what they did the second game on the same console was gonna do worse than the first in the given circumstances. We saw that with other series, too, just the effect was exaggerated for FE because TH was so big a breakout and because of other factors I discuss below. I fully expect the series to bounce back on the next console, not necessarily to TH levels but definitely at least to the 2mil+ range, given that all of Awakening, Fates, and TH were able to breach that. I wouldn't buy into the doomerism on the franchise's future you might see in some circles over Engage's underperformance.

--

warning: mini rant on my opinion of Engage

Wrt Engage it was a further inconvenience that they did the whole Emblems thing to celebrate the past heroes as an anniversary tie-in but then didn't actually get to mention the anniversary as part of it at all because of the pandemic and delay and stuff. Tbh, the story and cast being super polarizing didn't help, either, even more so because the core gameplay and Emblems stuff seems meant to appeal to longertime and hardcore fans but many aspects of the story and character designs were especially enRaging rather than enGaging to many of those same traditionalists. On top of that, in the main gameplay, the story tone, and the side modes you can detect they took plenty of cues from Heroes to try to hook some of that audience into the main series (and/or possibly experiment with some of those elements outside the mobile sphere), even though the core of the gameplay is IMO closer in spirit/feel to a hardcore strategy game compared to TH or Heroes. Leaving some feeling the gameplay had too many extra unneeded elements or being unexpectedly overwhelmed with complexity and/or difficulty.

That was a bit of a scrambled ramble, but a more positive way to spin it perhaps is they could afford to take some risks after banking themselves a really nice pot from TH, but ended up with a somewhat conflicted combination that begs the question of "who is this game really for."

I actually think the heart of the gameplay of Engage is really strong, and actually no matter what aspect of FE you're most into or whatever background with the series you have, there's something there for you; it just left a lot of people I think feeling like they had to work too hard around the other stuff to get to whatever items they were personally most interested in. Or something like that.
IMO, Three Houses had a more coherent direction, and more widely appealing story themes, character designs, and overall tone. Even though, at least IMO, the core gameplay isn't as good overall specifically for a more dedicated strategy game player, it had a very novel direction to take things and went all-out in executing it with laser-focus.

But yeah, Engage wasn't likely to outsell TH regardless of any of this.

 

[RileyXY1]

What do you mean by lucky? That the general reception towards their inclusion in Smash was positive?

Incineroar didn't really get as much backlash compared to the initial backlash of Corrin and Byteth, I'd say.

Incineroar had been around for longer by the time Ultimate was out than either of them had by the time they made their SSB debuts (and in Corrin's case, Fates wasn't even out yet at the time they were added to 4 IIRC), and at the very least, Incineroar is fairly popular on his own and his worldwide popularity is generally pretty consistent. The other two Gen 7 starters' final forms tend to be on the polar opposite ends of popularity in different regions.

I was talking about them outside of Smash. I was saying they were lucky they picked Pokémon that turned out to very popular and iconic within the series, especially in the case of Greninja who only existed as concept art when Sakurai chose it and it ended up being voted as the most popular Pokémon of all time.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Since we’re talking about avatar characters, I’m curious to get people’s opinions on something. How much does a character’s personality or story impact how much you want them in Smash? I feel like I’m in the minority on this one who puts more value on characters with strong personalities and growth so I’m less interested in avatars. I see that Byleth is generally really popular and tons of people would like characters like Monster Hunter. Logically, personality shouldn’t matter as much in a platform fighter that doesn’t give the characters much of an opportunity to show that off but it’s still important to me. If you want characters mainly for other reasons like their moveset, design, or that you just liked their game, that’s cool too. I want different characters for different reasons myself.

If it makes sense, I like a lot of the characters I support because of their personalities, but the personalities aren't the reason I support them. Because with limited dialogue, the characters aren't able to show much personality outside of taunts and victory poses. I guess their personalities are what put them in my head in the first place, and then I start looking at other aspects, like their moveset potential.
As for story impact, I don't need them to be the most important character but I'd like them to have some prominence. I wouldn't want just anyone to be able to get in.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I was talking about them outside of Smash. I was saying they were lucky they picked Pokémon that turned out to very popular and iconic within the series, especially in the case of Greninja who only existed as concept art when Sakurai chose it and it ended up being voted as the most popular Pokémon of all time.

Incineroar also ended up having decent notoriety with how good he became in VGC doubles.

Not quite as mainstream as the others (though he still has notable roles in the anime) but he's still got some infamy of his own.

Not bad for an option that isn't named Rowlet.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I was talking about them outside of Smash. I was saying they were lucky they picked Pokémon that turned out to very popular and iconic within the series, especially in the case of Greninja who only existed as concept art when Sakurai chose it and it ended up being voted as the most popular Pokémon of all time.

Although the methodology was based on region which is likely why Pikachu wasn’t in the top ten for example.

Also it was 5 years ago so I am not even sure if it’s still accurate.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Some degree of FE fighter dislike won't be going away until the generations change a bit because much of the antipathy isn't really entirely a rational objection based on particular facts as much as it is resentment that a perceived "niche" series comes off as overrepresented in Smash. Mario is iconic, Pokémon is a media empire, Zelda is a massively influential franchise with its games. Even if you like none of those series, their respective place in Smash likely feels warranted in some respects to most. For a few fans, even regardless of its age, even though FE is a series that did consistently solid numbers prior to, during, and after it gained momentum in the West? To such a group, Fire Emblem is a modest SRPG franchise that's ended up with a greater number of fighters than more "deserving" IP's that to many are cornerstones of Nintendo.

The actual production process that's allowed it this many fighters (consistent developer, often straightforward movesets, good timing with releases, ease of clones/echos) is in a sense irrelevant to those that just look at roster numbers and only see their favorite/more famous franchises with less than what FE has and conclude either series bias or a developer preference towards a certain type of fighter (which pretty much ignores Robin, Corrin, and Byleth being exceptions).

I'd liken it to a hypothetical 90s/early 2000s Sega fan that saw Puyo Puyo get bigger focus in marketing and more consistent releases over time than their preferred series and began to resent it. The latter's long history, merits as a franchise, practical success within the video game marketplace; everything that it is would be secondary in their minds to what it is not: one of their favorites that helped define what Sega was/is to them.

 

[BrawlX10]

I wonder what are the chances of a Granblue Fantasy rep those days.
It has expanded to home consoles. but do Cygames and Ninntendo have a good relatiosnhip still?

 

[Ivander]

I just also think there's a distinct possibility Sakurai opts to avoid adding a new character unless Nintendo requires it for DLC a third time. :V

I think it's 50/50 for anything to happen regardless.

• It could be Alear, it could be Veronica, it could be a different character.
• They could be base game, they could be DLC, they could not happen at all.
• The game Sakurai could be working on could be Smash Bros, it could be a different game entirely.

I honestly don't think the reception to Byleth is as much of an impact that people think or want to think that it will have an effect on characters and future games. And while Alear might sound uninteresting to some, some people who didn't like Byleth or think they weren't interesting have changed their minds after playing them, after being in the after-storm calm for a bit and I don't think Alear will be any different.
All that aside, I'm still holding on to my master theory.

Many people keep talking about how many Fire Emblem characters are going to get cut, but unfortunately for them, next year is Fire Emblem's prime time. Why? Cause it's 2025 next year and it will be Fire Emblem's 35th Anniversary. And not many people know this, but 2+0+2+5+3+5 = 17. And what is 17? A Prime number.
Hence why next year, along with it's 35th Anniversary, Book 9 for Fire Emblem Heroes and a new game announced in 2025, there will be no cut Fire Emblem characters for next Smash. And 35 Anniversaries+9 FEH Books+1 new game+No cut characters for Fire Emblem meaning 8 Fire Emblem Reps uncut=53, which is a Prime number. It's Fire Emblem's Prime time.

This has been "Your Useless Fact of the Day".

Since we are on this topic some of the music from that chapter would be pretty cool.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

FEH has so much good music. And man, would I love to see the faces on some of the reaction watchers if we got a Fire Emblem character trailer with this music.

Spoiler: More mentions for FEH music

 

[SharkLord]

Reading this, I think this is kind of why Pokémon, a series that picks its characters in largely the same way as Fire Emblem, doesn't get as much backlash--by their nature, the Pokémon they pick tend to (rather they have to) stand out from each other.

Yeah, Fire Emblem's tendency to reuse various archetypes is completely fine in a vacuum but becomes awkward when you're trying to make a roster for a platform fighter. It doesn't help that FE just lucked out with a couple popular characters with a similar build as Marth's ( ), a couple games that were dropping around the time a new Smash game/DLC cycle was running( ), and EiH guaranteeing that everyone comes back, so the lineup doubled between Brawl and 4, then doubled again between Smash 4's release and the end of Ultimate's DLC cycle. If Ultimate was a more traditional game, I have a feeling Sakurai would've taken a step back to re-evaluate each character's niche in the roster, and dropped a couple fighters accordingly.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It seems a lot of people are simply unwilling to accept that FE has now proven itself consistently capable, on a per-game basis, of selling close to, as well as, or better than several other franchises which receive much less pushback on their status and history within t Nintendo brand.

Because it's not consistent? Awakening was huge. Then Fates did alright. Then Three Houses was huge. And Engage did mediocre.

But it still keeps Fire Emblem's momentum as a million-unit seller and that's not something people should ignore just because they don't like it.

Nobody is ignoring it. It just doesn't warrant the amount of content FE gets in Smash.

Bottom line: FE gets as much content in Smash as Mario and Pokemon. And it doesn't even sell a fraction of what those franchises do. And that's the issue.

It's getting Pokemon attention, without putting up Pokemon numbers. FE has more content than Zelda does, even though mainline Zeldas sell way better than mainline FEs.

 

[92MilesPrower]

I wonder what are the chances of a Granblue Fantasy rep those days.
It has expanded to home consoles. but do Cygames and Ninntendo have a good relatiosnhip still?

Neither GBF nor any of its spin-offs have ever appeared on Nintendo systems to this day, and the games Cygames develops are mostly mobile games, with the vast majority of their console games being exclusively on PS4/5 and PC. The only notable exception is Dragalia Lost, essentially a collaboration between Nintendo and Cygames, but that got discontinued 3 years ago.

 

[Louie G.]

Because it's not consistent? Awakening was huge. Then Fates did alright. Then Three Houses was huge. And Engage did mediocre.

Fates literally outsold Awakening last I checked.

And FE Heroes is insanely successful. Engage is the only outlier and even then only underperformed relative to all the other post-Awakening games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fates literally outsold Awakening last I checked.

I don't think I'd call roughly the 1.5 -2 million Engage sold mediocre either.