Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Watuna4343]

You haven't brought up precedent, though. You said "I highly, like seriously doubt anyone (both from the audience and from the team) would go for a 2nd Mega Man character", which is a value judgment about the characters that you assigned as the wider fanbase's thoughts on the matter. That's projecting an opinion onto others.

In terms of the arguments from "heavily successful or iconic characters legacy-wise", you haven't provided any objective criteria for how much legacy needs to be possessed. As such, you can just move those goalposts forever. The peaks of the Mega Man X series are some of the most influential and celebrated action platformers of all time. X and Zero are the 3rd and 5th most popular Capcom characters, respectively. I don't know if that's enough to rise to your level of "literal giants", but it certainly makes them competitive.

I will cede that X and Zero don't tear up popularity polls for Smash. However, , , , , , , , , , , and didn't either.

In terms of not being the same character and therefore being ineligible as a transforming character, , , and aren't the same character as or constituent parts of . They are instead a team with the ability to swap in real time as part of the gameplay in their home series. This is how X and Zero function in X3, Xtreme 2, X7, and X8 (and MvCI, technically, but that doesn't count).

But I pretty much explained why I highly doubt though. Look, I get that you really want X/Zero in the game but this is the poster example of you projecting your opinion. Like, you are seriously questioning the legacy and success of other 3rd party franchises both in Smash and not in yet just to make X/Zero seem likelier disregarding all the roadblocks they have (competition, being 3rd parties, being 2nd reps in a 3rd party franchise, unlikeness of a gimmick, their franchise representation being a clear legacy pick which don't typically get 2nd reps etc.) And same for you questioning the 'legacy' aspect especially in regards to X/Zero's games when I pretty much explained that Mega Man himself is a legacy pick for the Mega Man franchise. i mean, I never denied the popularity of the games and neither that it's not acknowledged but It's not like the success isn't represented or isn't noticed by the team, which is literally why Mega Man is in and is such a big addition of the last 2 games. But adding a 2nd Mega Man rep is a different story altogether. Would the team choose a 2nd rep from a 3rd party franchise that isn't Sonic over a new 3rd party IP? Like are X/Zero covering something that Mega Man himself doesn't that is worth going for over another new 3rd party IP? And your examples not being popularity poll picks exactly proves my point of success and iconicness being the other factor of why a new franchise altogether is likelier to be in compared to a 2nd rep from a 3rd party franchise. Like, you questioned the 'successfulness and iconicity' criteria and then you brought up series like Pac-Man, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Castlevania etc. I think they speak for themselves. Point still stands though, I get that you really want X/Zero in the game but downplaying their disadvantages and the competition and overplaying their qualities as something only they possess doesn't change the fact that their chances of getting into the next game are slim for a lot of reasons.
(P.S: Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are precisely what I'm arguing about being the same character because they are not the fighter, Pokémon Trainer is. The 3 Pokémon are just parts of the same fighter and are treated as such, same case again can't apply to X/Zero where they are just switched by the player which is something that happens to so many games and yet there is no switcheroo mechanic)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just found a video that mods Spring Man over Min Min.

Seeing it in action, I'm liking the idea of ARMS Echo Fighters even more. I do have a few notes though:

• Spring Man's proportions are weird. That's not model replacement jank or anything, man is just all torso.
• Not sure why they bothered to change his ARMS set that much if they weren't going to change the properties of his attacks, but I am more confident in having Boomerang and Ram Ram act about the same mechanically.
• The kick attacks other than down air actually work quite well on him despite his oddly stubby legs. I'd still change his up and down smashes for other reasons though.
• He also would need his 100% comeback boost instead of the Dragon ARM charge, but other than that, the tweaks to Punch his ARMS set would provide, and the other three move changes, he's pretty well good to go.

 

[fogbadge]

to be honest I get the sense some people want characters to get cut

well yeah

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just found a video that mods Spring Man over Min Min.

Seeing it in action, I'm liking the idea of ARMS Echo Fighters even more. I do have a few notes though:

• Spring Man's proportions are weird. That's not model replacement jank or anything, man is just all torso.
• Not sure why they bothered to change his ARMS set that much if they weren't going to change the properties of his attacks, but I am more confident in having Boomerang and Ram Ram act about the same mechanically.
• The kick attacks other than down air actually work quite well on him despite his oddly stubby legs. I'd still change his up and down smashes for other reasons though.
• He also would need his 100% comeback boost instead of the Dragon ARM charge, but other than that, the tweaks to Punch his ARMS set would provide, and the other three move changes, he's pretty well good to go.

Not a ARMS fan, but this seems like a good Echo idea. Am for it!

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think it's funny how often the speculation revolves around wondering who will get cut, to be honest I get the sense some people want characters to get cut Sakurai clearly doesn't like cutting characters unless he has to, I guess we'll see where it goes though.

I think it’s more productive wondering who will stay rather than who will get cut.

 

[Gengar84]

Since we were just talking about female fighters the other day, what does everyone think about Aloy from Horizon? I played the first Horizon game and thought it was a lot of fun. Aloy has a lot of weapons and tools that could make for a fun moveset in Smash. Plus, we actually got a LEGO Horizon game on the Switch so she’s one of the few Sony characters with Nintendo presence. I bought Forbidden West a few weeks ago and I hear it’s great but I haven’t had the chance to try it myself yet.

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve been doing preliminary research on the Ninja Gaiden games to see how Ryu Hayabusa would play in Smash, and from what I’ve gathered, here are some idea I’ve had for special moves.

Spoiler: Specials

B : Shuriken; Hayabusa throws multiple small shurikens that can be angled with the control stick.
B + ←→ : Flying Swallow; Hayabusa dashes forward and slices through the opponent. When used on the ground, Hayabusa hops into the air and dashes diagonally downward.
B + ↑ : Roaring Gleam; Hayabusa spins around rapidly before finishing with an uppercut slash. When used on the ground, the attack can be charged, but the charge can’t be stored.
B + ↓ : Ninpo Arts; Hayabusa selects one of three Ninpo Arts to use; Wind Blades, Fire Wheel, and Inazuma. This is tied to a special gauge that uses Spirit Points (SP).

Final Smash: True Inferno of the Piercing Void; Hayabusa an orb of dark matter straight forward. Any opponents hit are paralyzed as Hayabusa then summons a mighty fire dragon that charges forward and launches the opponent.

Spoiler: Fighter Ability: Ninpo Arts

Hayabusa has a gauge at the top of his HUD that only fills when he takes and/or deals damage, never over time. The gauge has three bars that represent different Ninpo and different amounts of Spirit Points (SP).

• Blue: The first bar, and what Hayabusa starts each match with. Represents the Wind Blades (SP Cost: 1).
• Red: The second bar. Represents the Fire Wheel (SP Cost: 2).
• Yellow: The third and final bar. Represents Inazuma (SP Cost: 3).

The Ninpo Arts have different effects on Hayabusa’s sword attacks, along with changing his specials in different ways.

• Neutral Special
  • Wind Blades turns the Shuriken into the Windmill Shuriken, which circles back towards Hayabusa but can hurt him in its flight path
  • Fire Wheel envelops the Windmill Shuriken in flames, at the cost of not coming back to Hayabusa
  • Inazuma summons Kasumi’s Windmill Shuriken, which then splits into eight paralyzing kunai after traveling a certain distance
• Side Special
  • Wind Blades causes Hayabusa to slash the opponent multiple times. In the air, Hayabusa instead dashes faster without slashing anything.
  • Fire Wheel turns Flying Swallow into a flame charge that hits multiple times
  • Inazuma turns Flying Swallow into a Quick Attack-like technique in which Hayabusa can change direction with the control stick
• Up Special
  • Wind Blades extend Hayabusa’s jump height when used in the air
  • Fire Wheel has Hayabusa jump straight up in a pillar of flames
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa discharge electricity around himself at the cost of decreased jump height in the air
• Down Special
  • Wind Blades split into two blades that shoot vertically (horizontally if the button is held)
  • Fire Wheel can be thrown and angled with the control stick
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa jump into the air and throw eight paralyzing kunai towards the ground

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I love the character designs in ARMS a lot, so I’m all for getting another ARMS character as a variant of Min Min, Ninjara would be my go to pick for that, he’s the most similar to Min Min, and it would be fitting considering he was the runner up choice for Ultimate.

 

[Sophitia]

I’ve been doing preliminary research on the Ninja Gaiden games to see how Ryu Hayabusa would play in Smash, and from what I’ve gathered, here are some idea I’ve had for special moves.

Spoiler: Specials

B : Shuriken; Hayabusa throws multiple small shurikens that can be angled with the control stick.
B + ←→ : Flying Swallow; Hayabusa dashes forward and slices through the opponent. When used on the ground, Hayabusa hops into the air and dashes diagonally downward.
B + ↑ : Roaring Gleam; Hayabusa spins around rapidly before finishing with an uppercut slash. When used on the ground, the attack can be charged, but the charge can’t be stored.
B + ↓ : Ninpo Arts; Hayabusa selects one of three Ninpo Arts to use; Wind Blades, Fire Wheel, and Inazuma. This is tied to a special gauge that uses Spirit Points (SP).

Final Smash: True Inferno of the Piercing Void; Hayabusa an orb of dark matter straight forward. Any opponents hit are paralyzed as Hayabusa then summons a mighty fire dragon that charges forward and launches the opponent.

Spoiler: Fighter Ability: Ninpo Arts

Hayabusa has a gauge at the top of his HUD that only fills when he takes and/or deals damage, never over time. The gauge has three bars that represent different Ninpo and different amounts of Spirit Points (SP).

• Blue: The first bar, and what Hayabusa starts each match with. Represents the Wind Blades (SP Cost: 1).
• Red: The second bar. Represents the Fire Wheel (SP Cost: 2).
• Yellow: The third and final bar. Represents Inazuma (SP Cost: 3).

The Ninpo Arts have different effects on Hayabusa’s sword attacks, along with changing his specials in different ways.

• Neutral Special
  • Wind Blades turns the Shuriken into the Windmill Shuriken, which circles back towards Hayabusa but can hurt him in its flight path
  • Fire Wheel envelops the Windmill Shuriken in flames, at the cost of not coming back to Hayabusa
  • Inazuma summons Kasumi’s Windmill Shuriken, which then splits into eight paralyzing kunai after traveling a certain distance
• Side Special
  • Wind Blades causes Hayabusa to slash the opponent multiple times. In the air, Hayabusa instead dashes faster without slashing anything.
  • Fire Wheel turns Flying Swallow into a flame charge that hits multiple times
  • Inazuma turns Flying Swallow into a Quick Attack-like technique in which Hayabusa can change direction with the control stick
• Up Special
  • Wind Blades extend Hayabusa’s jump height when used in the air
  • Fire Wheel has Hayabusa jump straight up in a pillar of flames
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa discharge electricity around himself at the cost of decreased jump height in the air
• Down Special
  • Wind Blades split into two blades that shoot vertically (horizontally if the button is held)
  • Fire Wheel can be thrown and angled with the control stick
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa jump into the air and throw eight paralyzing kunai towards the ground

If Hayabusa is in, they have to give him his Izuna Drop. I don't know if that would be a grab, special or what but I feel like it has to be in.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think it's funny how often the speculation revolves around wondering who will get cut, to be honest I get the sense some people want characters to get cut Sakurai clearly doesn't like cutting characters unless he has to, I guess we'll see where it goes though.

Cuts don't bother me as much as other speculators, but I still don't like discussing them much. They're just a part of moving on.

 

[Louie G.]

I like talking about cuts, veterans, newcomers… it’s all part of what the next game is going to be. I don’t like having to justify talking about one of the most pressing questions / truths about the future of Smash every few days. It’s all part of the same puzzle that we’re here to solve.

I don’t always like the answers, or agree with everyone on the topic, but I enjoy weighing out everyone’s pros and cons and having that discussion. Sorry if you don’t but again, it’s kind of the big elephant in the room at any given time when we’re talking about the next installment. I agree with BritishGuy that the more productive framing is “who will return”, but one effectively comes with the other when someone realizes who’s missing.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Since we were just talking about female fighters the other day, what does everyone think about Aloy from Horizon? I played the first Horizon game and thought it was a lot of fun. Aloy has a lot of weapons and tools that could make for a fun moveset in Smash. Plus, we actually got a LEGO Horizon game on the Switch so she’s one of the few Sony characters with Nintendo presence. I bought Forbidden West a few weeks ago and I hear it’s great but I haven’t had the chance to try it myself yet.

I will admit I am a biased in that I did not care for the bit of Horizon I played, that said I would hate having Aloy as our first Sony character, to me getting her before Kratos would be like getting Marcus Fenix before Master Chief.

While I think Ratchet & Clank should also take priority, adding Aloy as the 2nd Sony character after Kratos is understandable, as much I wouldn’t want it to be the case.

Also Pipo Monkey should be an assist trophy.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Crash Bandicoot ever gets into Smash, they should include a Smash remix of Dr. Neo Cortex's theme, and it should sound something like this:

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I like talking about cuts, veterans, newcomers… it’s all part of what the next game is going to be. I don’t like having to justify talking about one of the most pressing questions / truths about the future of Smash every few days. It’s all part of the same puzzle that we’re here to solve.

I don’t always like the answers, or agree with everyone on the topic, but I enjoy weighing out everyone’s pros and cons and having that discussion. Sorry if you don’t but again, it’s kind of the big elephant in the room at any given time when we’re talking about the next installment. I agree with BritishGuy that the more productive framing is “who will return”, but one effectively comes with the other when someone realizes who’s missing.

Especially since Smash 6 will probably see the most cuts and even characters that have been in the series since Melee.

Sometimes it’s just random while others have a reason.

 

[SharkLord]

Especially since Smash 6 will probably see the most cuts and even characters that have been in the series since Melee.

Sometimes it’s just random while others have a reason.

Yeah, cuts are just a fact of life. Ultimate had 55 or so characters from Smash 4, 7 veterans they had to resurrect from previous installments, and 7 full newcomers, which shows focus on all the veterans constricts the newcomer selection. Furthermore, it's been stressed that EiH is unlikely to happen again. Therefore, if we want more newcomers next game, cuts are all but certain. For what it's worth, I do enjoy puzzling over how to balance mainstays and more niche but interesting characters, moveset variety, and a limited roster selection, even if I don't always have time to read over other people's rosters. Nowadays I find it more interesting than just "aight let's dump as many characters in here and call it a day."

 

[Garteam]

But I pretty much explained why I highly doubt though. Look, I get that you really want X/Zero in the game but this is the poster example of you projecting your opinion. Like, you are seriously questioning the legacy and success of other 3rd party franchises both in Smash and not in yet just to make X/Zero seem likelier disregarding all the roadblocks they have (competition, being 3rd parties, being 2nd reps in a 3rd party franchise, unlikeness of a gimmick, their franchise representation being a clear legacy pick which don't typically get 2nd reps etc.) And same for you questioning the 'legacy' aspect especially in regards to X/Zero's games when I pretty much explained that Mega Man himself is a legacy pick for the Mega Man franchise. i mean, I never denied the popularity of the games and neither that it's not acknowledged but It's not like the success isn't represented or isn't noticed by the team, which is literally why Mega Man is in and is such a big addition of the last 2 games. But adding a 2nd Mega Man rep is a different story altogether. Would the team choose a 2nd rep from a 3rd party franchise that isn't Sonic over a new 3rd party IP? Like are X/Zero covering something that Mega Man himself doesn't that is worth going for over another new 3rd party IP? And your examples not being popularity poll picks exactly proves my point of success and iconicness being the other factor of why a new franchise altogether is likelier to be in compared to a 2nd rep from a 3rd party franchise. Like, you questioned the 'successfulness and iconicity' criteria and then you brought up series like Pac-Man, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Castlevania etc. I think they speak for themselves. Point still stands though, I get that you really want X/Zero in the game but downplaying their disadvantages and the competition and overplaying their qualities as something only they possess doesn't change the fact that their chances of getting into the next game are slim for a lot of reasons.
(P.S: Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are precisely what I'm arguing about being the same character because they are not the fighter, Pokémon Trainer is. The 3 Pokémon are just parts of the same fighter and are treated as such, same case again can't apply to X/Zero where they are just switched by the player which is something that happens to so many games and yet there is no switcheroo mechanic)

This is going to be the last post on this matter because we seem to be the only ones having this conversation. You also seem to have a new argument each time ("bubble picks", no one in desires them in Smash, lacking legacy/popularity and transforming characters always being one character, and now this new definition of Mega Man as a "legacy" franchise). You did take the time to write all of this out, so I do want to give it some response.

"Competition" and "being third parties" is pretty vague (and the former can apply to literally every character ever). However, I think being additional characters from a franchise already in Smash provides them with an advantage in that licensing costs could be saved compared to getting new franchises. It's a cost-effective way to get new third parties that weren't in Ultimate without blowing up the game's budget.

You keep bringing up Sonic like it has to receive immediate priority over every other third party franchise in Smash, but is in Ultimate and Sonic is still a solo act. You could also just add a Sonic character and X and/or Zero. There's no mutual exclusivity here.

I will steelman your argument and note that competition among Capcom characters is particularly fierce, but it's not insurmountable. The competitive advantage of already having to be licensed for Mega Man could help X and Zero compete with Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, DMC, etc., particularly for the base roster.

Chun-Li is probably the most immediate source of competition and I also think she's very competitive, but she was also in the list of newcomers I proposed with X and Zero. Mega Man generally got more focus in Ultimate than Street Fighter and X and Zero both outranked Chun-Li on the Capcom Super Election Poll I referenced earlier by about 7,000 votes, so there's still some argument for them potentially outprioritizing good ol' thunder thighs if Capcom gets only one supporting character.

You haven't provided a definition for "legacy" franchise, but I'm going to assume that's meant to mean "Mega Man doesn't have a recent enough game to justify a new character". However, Mega Man 11 released in December 2018, which would make it less than 3 years old at the time of a mid-2021 project plan. Alternatively, you look to X Dive Offline in 2023, but it's nebulous if that is a conventional "new game".

In terms of the merits of Mega Man in particular, the series has sold 42 million units and has over 130 games. Those games are divided into seven subseries, each with their own characters, locations, and unique gameplay elements. Other than classic Mega Man (which is the one primarily represented in Smash), X is the most popular subseries and two of its entries, Mega Man X and Mega Man X4, are generally considered the peak of the entire Mega Man series. The fact that people still talk about these games 30+ years later is a testament to their quality and popularity.

You still haven't provided any justification for why franchises like Pac-Man, Street Fighter, and Castlevania "speak for themselves" but Mega Man doesn't, but this provides a solid enough reason to conceptually revisit Mega Man for a second character.

In terms of X and Zero being a transforming character, I will admit that's definitely the most farfetched argument I have for their inclusion, but I'm not sure what your argument is. is one fighter, sure, but it's still four constituent characters that swap mid-battle operating as a single fighter. , , are severable from Pokemon Trainer as individual characters, it's not like with and where it is two identities of a single entity. Is the issue that there's no predominant identity for the fighter? If so, why isn't this an issue with and ?

 

[BrawlX10]

I like talking about cuts, veterans, newcomers… it’s all part of what the next game is going to be. I don’t like having to justify talking about one of the most pressing questions / truths about the future of Smash every few days. It’s all part of the same puzzle that we’re here to solve.

I don’t always like the answers, or agree with everyone on the topic, but I enjoy weighing out everyone’s pros and cons and having that discussion. Sorry if you don’t but again, it’s kind of the big elephant in the room at any given time when we’re talking about the next installment. I agree with BritishGuy that the more productive framing is “who will return”, but one effectively comes with the other when someone realizes who’s missing.

I don't think there's any issue about talking about cuts at all, altrough i admit it gets annoying sometimes because of the frequency of it, but if it's done in good faith then i think it's completey fine to talk about it, it's just harmless speculation.
If anything i think (this isn't directed to anyone, btw) getting upset over people politely expresing their thoughts about the cuts it's pretty inmature, uronically.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think there's any issue about talking about cuts at all, altrough i admit it gets annoying sometimes because of the frequency of it, but if it's done in good faith then i think it's completey fine to talk about it, it's just harmless speculation.

Right, I'm a bit confused at whenever people talk about the 'frequency' though because that's the response I feel like I hear like... virtually any time it comes up at all, and it comes up maybe every few days? Which feels normal in a thread themed around roster speculation, the rest of the time we're happy to speculate on new characters, veteran adjustments, all the usual stuff.

You're right that it'd be immature of me to get "upset" over it, but all the same I find it kind of annoying when someone will come in like "okay, so instead of talking about cuts for the millionth time...." and then just post a list of characters they want with barely any elaboration. I dunno. We're all here to have a good time at the end of the day, but people need to respect that means something different to different people. When I talk about cuts or whatever, someone sees that as "negativity" but I see it as just facing reality and trying to find a solution. And that's interesting to me, personally.

If you want a topic that actually does happen way too often, I pull my hair out every time we have the "port" conversation. That does not deserve nearly as much discussion as it gets here. At least if we're talking about cuts there are dozens of ways things could play out, different characters we can talk about... this other conversation feels like it happens a couple times a week and is never built on in any remotely interesting way.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Furthermore, it's been stressed that EiH is unlikely to happen again.

He only said that so that when it does happen again, people will be surprised.

Therefore, if we want more newcomers next game, cuts are all but certain.

All I need is 18 unique Newcomers to get me to Fighter #100.

Ultimate gave us 18 unique Newcomers, along with EiH. So they don't need to do cuts to give me what I want.

 

[BrawlX10]

If you want a topic that actually does happen way too often, I pull my hair out every time we have the "port" conversation. That does not deserve nearly as much discussion as it gets here. At least if we're talking about cuts there are dozens of ways things could play out, different characters we can talk about... this other conversation feels like it happens a couple times a week and is never built on in any remotely interesting way.

I think i'm guilty of this because i bring up sometimes that i personally think a Ultimate Deluxe is a posibility, sometimes because it's related to the point i'm making: "Asuming the next game isn't a ultimate deluxe, i think we could get around 40 stages" stuff like that, i don't really care about having the conversation again because it's a broken clock, i just don't rule out the option.

Right, I'm a bit confused at whenever people talk about the 'frequency' though because that's the response I feel like I hear like... virtually any time it comes up at all, and it comes up maybe every few days? Which feels normal in a thread themed around roster speculation, the rest of the time we're happy to speculate on new characters, veteran adjustments, all the usual stuff.

Honestly, i think "frequency" is more of an excuse or exageration, some people maybe are burned out in cut talk and want yo discuss something else at the time, generally cut talks dominate the "conversation" a quite bit.
Some people also take the "huge cuts are guaranteed" and "no cuts" mentality in a very annoying ways, which some people lost patiencie of.

over it, but all the same I find it kind of annoying when someone will come in like "okay, so instead of talking about cuts for the millionth time...." and then just post a list of characters they want with barely any elaboration. I dunno. We're all here to have a good time at the end of the day, but people need to respect that means something different to different people. When I talk about cuts or whatever, someone sees that as "negativity" but I see it as just facing reality and trying to find a solution. And that's interesting to me, personally.

Yeah, that's kind of annoying, at very least if you want to deflect the cut talk try to come up with another conversation that's not just a generic wishlist.

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah, cuts are just a fact of life. Ultimate had 55 or so characters from Smash 4, 7 veterans they had to resurrect from previous installments, and 7 full newcomers, which shows focus on all the veterans constricts the newcomer selection. Furthermore, it's been stressed that EiH is unlikely to happen again. Therefore, if we want more newcomers next game, cuts are all but certain. For what it's worth, I do enjoy puzzling over how to balance mainstays and more niche but interesting characters, moveset variety, and a limited roster selection, even if I don't always have time to read over other people's rosters. Nowadays I find it more interesting than just "aight let's dump as many characters in here and call it a day."

Actually it only had five full newcomers at launch (Inkling, Ridley, Simon, King K. Rool, and Incineroar). The other six newcomer slots were filled by clones (Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus, Richter, Isabelle, and Ken), marking the first time in Smash history that a Smash game introduced more clones than unique newcomers at launch.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

In terms of X and Zero being a transforming character, I will admit that's definitely the most farfetched argument I have for their inclusion, but I'm not sure what your argument is. is one fighter, sure, but it's still four constituent characters that swap mid-battle operating as a single fighter. , , are severable from Pokemon Trainer as individual characters, it's not like with and where it is two identities of a single entity. Is the issue that there's no predominant identity for the fighter? If so, why isn't this an issue with and ?

I'm not gonna get all into this argument because I don't have a ton to say about Mega Man (my only experience pretty much is Mega Man 2 on Wii U VC I think lmao), but I wanted to bring up this bit because Pyra and Mythra are basically the same as Zelda and Sheik in that regard. Mythra is the original character and created Pyra as an alternate identity to essentially seal herself away because of the events of Torna: The Golden Country. They do become separate entities at the end of Xenoblade 2, but we basically never experience that version of them since it's the very end of the game and they don't appear in 3.

Making X and Zero a transformation character isn't quite the same thing lol

Personally I just think if Mega Man did get a second character it'd just be Zero and he'd get an X-style blue alternate color (though I don't think he'd get X as an alt like say MvC3 did I think), just wanted to point out that Pyra and Mythra bit as a Xenoblade fan lol

 

[BrawlX10]

I also want to add to my previous point.
While i consider both Smash 6 and Ultmate Deluxe as pausible options, the extremits of either side can cause fatigue, it's annoying trying to speculate with a person that doesn't have an open mind and s*** on other people's opinions.
You can prefer Ult Deluxe or non-EiH2 Smash 6 without begin a jerk to the other side, this includes people who want a reboot Smash 6 or a EiH2 Smash 6 over those.
This isn't directed to anyone here, but some time ago i saw a thread in gamefaqs were people were disrespectful over an opinion and it's just unecesarily hostile.

 

[Golden Icarus]

"Who's coming back" is literally just the other half of "who's gonna be added?" The second question is more exciting, but I think it's still fun to narrow down who's likely to return, especially with how huge Ultimate's roster is and how much of a mystery Smash 6's roster size is. Brawl and 4 cut an average of about 15-20% of characters and even if Ultimate only loses 10%, that's still more cuts than ever and if Brawl was able to cut Mewtwo it's worth preparing for an upset.

But yeah - I don't know if it's the fact that Ultimate will always exist, or the excitement of something new, but I don't fully relate to the panic some folks have over their favorites getting cut. They still exist in past games. Not to mention losing and then regaining a character is uniquely fun in its own way. Wolf's redesign in Ultimate was everything and seeing Pichu and Young Link after so many years was such a cool surprise, but if they were playable in every game? I don't know I would just take them for granted and maybe even resent them a little bit. I know this isn't the same for everyone, but I do think most people overestimate how much they'll miss a particular character when they have a brand new game with loads of redesigns and 15+ new characters to play, plus the possibility of DLC bringing your favorite back. This conversation doesn't need to feel like pulling teeth.

Gotta learn to be excited about the characters who will be playable and spend less energy thinking about the ones left behind. Gonna pull the "that's how literally every other fighting game series works" card.

No one asked, but I'm posting my takes on which veterans I expect to return.

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I posted this veteran prediction last year and honestly I still vibe with it. I'd make a few changes here and there, but my general thought process is similar. My hottest takes would still probably be my third party optimism and doubt towards echoes. I don't believe in EiH2, but I do believe that Sakurai will always try to go...bigger in some way. If next game has less characters than Ultimate, which feels likely, then I think "every character is totally unique" is an effective way to make it feel bigger. Similarly it can have less overall characters, but still be a bigger crossover with more unique franchises than ever and / or more 3rd party crossovers than ever. A high 3rd party ratio and a small clone ratio makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Megadoomer]

Thinking about which third party characters are likely to come back (I feel like a lot of first party characters are safe barring time constraints - the only first party cuts we've had were clones, 3DS limitations that don't apply here, and whatever the situation was with Mewtwo), I feel like Castlevania's pretty likely. There have been at least three indie games that got Castlevania content recently - Vampire Survivors, Dead By Daylight, and Dead Cells (if there are others, I'm not aware of them) - with the Vampire Survivors content roughly doubling the number of characters in the game, even with all of the previous DLC included. I don't know if Metal Gear would be treated like a package deal or not, but at the very least, I figure that Castlevania's a safe bet when it comes to Konami franchises.

Square-Enix is the only company that I kind of question, but even then, they seemed pretty eager to have their characters be DLC in Smash Ultimate, so I figure at the very least, some of them will return through that. (I don't know if the passing of Koichi Sugiyama would clear up any barriers that would make it harder for Dragon Quest to be included in the base game; I know he was stingy about orchestral versions of Dragon Quest music)

As for other third party companies...

• Sega: unless they're completely getting rid of third party characters from Smash Bros., Sonic seems like a given. Nintendo's funded 3/4 of Bayonetta's series, and Platinum is still making action games despite their recent shake-ups, so I feel like they've both got a vested interest in bringing Bayonetta back into Smash. Not sure about Joker - his inclusion in Smash definitely helped to expose Nintendo fans to Persona, and the number of Persona releases on the Switch since then likely did better as a result of his inclusion, but I could see him going either way.
• Capcom: I feel like it's safe to say they'll be back in some form. If they were limited to one character, my guess would be that they'd go with Ryu, but it doesn't seem like they'd have a problem with having their characters in Smash, so I feel like Ken and Mega Man would be back as well.
• Bandai-Namco: they helped with making the past two or three Smash Bros. games (not sure if 3DS would be counted separately) - I'm not sure if Kazuya would be seen as a low priority or not given his relatively complex mechanics, but at the very least, I figure that Pac-Man will be back if Bandai-Namco comes back to help. (which seems pretty likely given how much the scope of Smash tends to expand with each new installment)
• SNK: they seem to be OKAY with Terry appearing in just about anything; given their response to the music list alone, I feel like he'll be back.
• Microsoft: they were apparently easier to work with than expected, and with Banjo and Steve having objective proof of their popularity (Banjo placing highly in the Smash Ballot (possibly second overall); Steve's announcement causing Twitter to crash), I feel like they'll return at some point. However, I could see it being more attractive for Microsoft to have at least one of them as DLC. (since, presumably, they'd get a bigger cut of the individual DLC sales - I could be wrong about that, though)
• Disney: apparently they were easy to work with, and with Sora being the last character, I'd like to think that they had the next game in mind when working things out.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I feel like a lot of third party characters could return for the next game. Maybe not all of them (if there's not enough time to recreate everyone), but at least one or two per company.

 

[BrawlX10]

But yeah - I don't know if it's the fact that Ultimate will always exist, or the excitement of something new, but I don't fully relate to the panic some folks have over their favorites getting cut

For some people Smash is 95% about the roster and the gameplay is just a nice bonus (of various degrees of course) and losing their character can make them not find the game apalealing, they might not care about new modes or reworks, which is completely fine.
For me i personally i'm more of a gameplay guy, so losing my favourite character (Hero) would be annoying but i would not cancel my pre-order or anything, i would just main a diferent character instead.
People have diferent priorities for smash and that's ok.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Third parties are difficult to pin down.

I think Ultimate got away with having as many third parties as it did mainly because it came so soon after Smash 4, and was being planned and drafted a time where Nintendo wasn’t in the best place (the Wii U not selling too well).

Times have changed.

The Switch is Nintendo’s most popular home console, and only second most popular console overall, behind the DS. Nintendo have clearly known that investing in their own IP is and will be important and imperative for future growth.

Newer series like have only become more popular with the Switch, and are primed for big increases in representation next game. Older series like have also become much more popular with the Switch era. Ignoring this growth is a bad move.

Smash has become bigger than ever with Ultimate, and I don’t think the community will be the only ones wanting to go bigger and better. Some third party companies will likely be hoping for deeper ties into Smash.

The thing is… Nintendo isn’t at the bottom of the barrel with their characters. It is clear Nintendo is actively filling up that barrel, hoping it doesn’t go to the bottom thanks to new games across a variety of series, such as the new rotating cast characters, ripened characters who have take a while to take hold, or simply fan favourites.

I think like Ultimate, many third party inclusions will be reserved for DLC. Yes, even veterans.

Or maybe we will see a decentralisation of crossover games, where not everyone is hinging on Smash for their favourite characters duking it out.

 

[Garteam]

I'm not gonna get all into this argument because I don't have a ton to say about Mega Man (my only experience pretty much is Mega Man 2 on Wii U VC I think lmao), but I wanted to bring up this bit because Pyra and Mythra are basically the same as Zelda and Sheik in that regard. Mythra is the original character and created Pyra as an alternate identity to essentially seal herself away because of the events of Torna: The Golden Country. They do become separate entities at the end of Xenoblade 2, but we basically never experience that version of them since it's the very end of the game and they don't appear in 3.

Making X and Zero a transformation character isn't quite the same thing lol

Personally I just think if Mega Man did get a second character it'd just be Zero and he'd get an X-style blue alternate color (though I don't think he'd get X as an alt like say MvC3 did I think), just wanted to point out that Pyra and Mythra bit as a Xenoblade fan lol

I know Pyra and Mythra are the same character. The alleged issue that they show is not relevant is them not having an overarching title that ties them together like Zelda or Pokemon Trainer. They could have gotten around this by just calling them "the Aegis" or just Pyra, but there clearly isn't any problem in Sakurai's eyes with just labelling the fighter as Pyra and Mythra.

 

[Watuna4343]

This is going to be the last post on this matter because we seem to be the only ones having this conversation. You also seem to have a new argument each time ("bubble picks", no one in desires them in Smash, lacking legacy/popularity and transforming characters always being one character, and now this new definition of Mega Man as a "legacy" franchise). You did take the time to write all of this out, so I do want to give it some response.

"Competition" and "being third parties" is pretty vague (and the former can apply to literally every character ever). However, I think being additional characters from a franchise already in Smash provides them with an advantage in that licensing costs could be saved compared to getting new franchises. It's a cost-effective way to get new third parties that weren't in Ultimate without blowing up the game's budget.

You keep bringing up Sonic like it has to receive immediate priority over every other third party franchise in Smash, but is in Ultimate and Sonic is still a solo act. You could also just add a Sonic character and X and/or Zero. There's no mutual exclusivity here.

I will steelman your argument and note that competition among Capcom characters is particularly fierce, but it's not insurmountable. The competitive advantage of already having to be licensed for Mega Man could help X and Zero compete with Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, DMC, etc., particularly for the base roster.

Chun-Li is probably the most immediate source of competition and I also think she's very competitive, but she was also in the list of newcomers I proposed with X and Zero. Mega Man generally got more focus in Ultimate than Street Fighter and X and Zero both outranked Chun-Li on the Capcom Super Election Poll I referenced earlier by about 7,000 votes, so there's still some argument for them potentially outprioritizing good ol' thunder thighs if Capcom gets only one supporting character.

You haven't provided a definition for "legacy" franchise, but I'm going to assume that's meant to mean "Mega Man doesn't have a recent enough game to justify a new character". However, Mega Man 11 released in December 2018, which would make it less than 3 years old at the time of a mid-2021 project plan. Alternatively, you look to X Dive Offline in 2023, but it's nebulous if that is a conventional "new game".

In terms of the merits of Mega Man in particular, the series has sold 42 million units and has over 130 games. Those games are divided into seven subseries, each with their own characters, locations, and unique gameplay elements. Other than classic Mega Man (which is the one primarily represented in Smash), X is the most popular subseries and two of its entries, Mega Man X and Mega Man X4, are generally considered the peak of the entire Mega Man series. The fact that people still talk about these games 30+ years later is a testament to their quality and popularity.

You still haven't provided any justification for why franchises like Pac-Man, Street Fighter, and Castlevania "speak for themselves" but Mega Man doesn't, but this provides a solid enough reason to conceptually revisit Mega Man for a second character.

In terms of X and Zero being a transforming character, I will admit that's definitely the most farfetched argument I have for their inclusion, but I'm not sure what your argument is. is one fighter, sure, but it's still four constituent characters that swap mid-battle operating as a single fighter. , , are severable from Pokemon Trainer as individual characters, it's not like with and where it is two identities of a single entity. Is the issue that there's no predominant identity for the fighter? If so, why isn't this an issue with and ?

I also wish for this to end but I just felt like a lot of these arguments even here are flimsy and I feel like there is a bit of a misunderstanding on some arguments. For starters, I don't bring up a new argument/excuse to justify X/Zero's exclusions since I already said that their chances in general are not good. Just because I type a new thing everytime doesn't meant that I change my mind, it's really just that there are many things that pile up and make them very hard to imagine. But to say that 'competition with 3rd party characters is vague' is - I'll be honest - really wrong because 3rd parties fight with other 3rd parties for spots. That's just how it goes. Even from Brawl Sakurai said there'll be max 3 3rd party characters, so it's not like there'll be a particularly high amount of 3rd parties/newcomers in the next game especially with the next game having a smaller roster than Ultimate - that leaves less room for 3rd parties too, that's just the way things are.

And in terms of the misunderstanding, it's just about the games' success. The thing is, I already said, I never doubted Mega Man's success. I never questioned it and I never said it was anything less than these examples. But I wasn't comparing Mega Man to Pac-Man, Street Fighter etc. I was comparing X/Zero to them. And both of them have the disadvantage of being 2nd reps to a franchise going up against such classics. And that extends beyond franchises in Smash too. As for the argument about the 2nd Sonic rep/Sephiroth getting in, it really all comes down to legacy, an argument that doesn't sit well with you. Point is that Mega Man is a legacy pick not because it's a new, recent hit but because it's a historically big and important franchise, akin to Pac-Man. The fact is that Mega Man doesn't have the same success today that it had in the past and has faded a lot. Like Mega Man back then and now are day and night (same with Pac-Man, both are cases of characters that got in because of legacy reasons, because they were so big in the past). Whereas Sonic and Final Fantasy (particularly 7) are to this day very big hits, hence why it's much more sensible for them to add a 2nd rep than Mega Man (whether in Smash Ultimate or Smash 6).
The Nintendo equivalents to Mega Man in terms of inclusion in the roster are the retro picks; Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, ROB, the Belmonts. All of these characters even though most were obviously not as successful as Mega Man were added as legacy picks to honor the retro era and the only instance of them having a 2nd rep is one of the Belmonts being an easy echo (and on the topic of Castlevania, they too have other games since the old days but are unlikely to see another addition because again, they are a legacy pick with their success being far more prevalent in the past rather than the present, akin to Mega Man). Now of course, one can argue that most of these don't have many options for a 2nd rep, but point still stands that an interest to expand upon a legacy pick just hasn't appeared to be an intention as that expansion is much more focused on newer, more recent successes and homegrown franchises, which makes a lot of sense imo. Basically, the combination of being 2nd reps to a 3rd party franchise, being in competition with pretty much all the other 3rd party characters (because again, 3rd parties fight for spot with other 3rd parties) in a smaller roster, being in a franchise that is largely represented for legacy reasons (again with the only instance of one having 2 fighters being the solution of an easy echo) and having a forced gimmick (in regards to Pokemon Trainer, again, it's him who is the fighter. Even if the 3 Pokemon are different, the case of the fighter still is that Pokemon Trainer is using 3 different Pokemon to fight, so that's why it's one fighter using 3 different 'sub' fighters), just makes it really, really hard to see them being added. I do also wish for this to end but again, I never doubted Mega Man's success, but adding a 2nd rep is a different case altogether.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I also want to add to my previous point.
While i consider both Smash 6 and Ultmate Deluxe as pausible options, the extremits of either side can cause fatigue, it's annoying trying to speculate with a person that doesn't have an open mind and s*** on other people's opinions.
You can prefer Ult Deluxe or non-EiH2 Smash 6 without begin a jerk to the other side, this includes people who want a reboot Smash 6 or a EiH2 Smash 6 over those.
This isn't directed to anyone here, but some time ago i saw a thread in gamefaqs were people were disrespectful over an opinion and it's just unecesarily hostile.

Well I certainly don't hate the idea of everyone staying, I just dislike the idea of having to pay $60 for a game I've already played with barely any changes, and then having to pay an extra $60 on top of that for additional Fighter's Passes. If by some miracle (and it is going to take a miracle) we somehow do get a new Smash that brings everyone back on top of 50 newcomers? Sure, why not, at least it's a substantial amount of new content which is what I mainly want in the first place.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'd also love to hear a new remix of the Crash Warped theme if Crash ever gets into Smash.

 

[NotGenerico]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

 

[BrawlX10]

I think like Ultimate, many third party inclusions will be reserved for DLC. Yes, even veterans.

Which 3rd characters do you think are more likely to be base game and which ones dlc in this case?

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'll probably come back as DLC.

Im personally more in the camp that if a 3rd party character doesn't return in the base game is likely for the following:
. Time Constraints
. Nintendo isn't interested in the character returning for whatever reason
. They save it for DLC

 

[fogbadge]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

You might be over analysing it

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

What does Takara even do on Nintendo

 

[NotGenerico]

You might be over analysing it

All I'm saying is that Nintendo having third party characters in Smash makes their partners happy by promoting their games while Nintendo can boast that you can play as someone like Cloud or Snake on their party game. It seems like a win-win situation to me.

 

[fogbadge]

All I'm saying is that Nintendo having third party characters in Smash makes their partners happy by promoting their games while Nintendo can boast that you can play as someone like Cloud or Snake on their party game. It seems like a win-win situation to me.

yes but I imagine having their games on their consoles also does this

 

[Guynamednelson]

What does Takara even do on Nintendo

A bunch of Pokemon merch is made by Takara Tomy, and as for games...Takara did port various SNK games to the SNES.

 

[RileyXY1]

Well I certainly don't hate the idea of everyone staying, I just dislike the idea of having to pay $60 for a game I've already played with barely any changes, and then having to pay an extra $60 on top of that for additional Fighter's Passes. If by some miracle (and it is going to take a miracle) we somehow do get a new Smash that brings everyone back on top of 50 newcomers? Sure, why not, at least it's a substantial amount of new content which is what I mainly want in the first place.

It will actually be $70, which makes the idea of an Ultimate Deluxe even worse, as you would essentially be selling people a product that they already own at a higher price. And given how much content had to be sacrificed in Ultimate's base game for the sake of Everyone is Here an Ultimate Deluxe would end up having even fewer new characters and stages at launch.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

Y'all know who will be the first character revealed...

Spoiler