Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Dukefire]

For Metal Sonic, copycat is his unique characteristic.

Though, his copycat like kirby, but within the limits of his programming.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Not actually as true as you think. Everyone is Smash Ultimate was decided at the beginning. It's only Dark Pit and Lucina who were a last minute, and that was solely last game. Metal Sonic would've been an Echo Fighter from the start, if the next game follows the same plan as Brawl and Ultimate(all characters are decided, some may be dropped if not enough time).

This does happen with clones, it's just Ultimate isn't an example of it.

---------------

That said, Metal Sonic's proportions are pretty much correct, but his details are significantly different from Sonic's. He's going to take longer to model than a typical Echo(ironically the other robotic forms are closer to Sonic's design pieces, but they're also different bodyshapes). That may matter when deciding him. Every Echo should be easy to make into a Costume otherwise. Metal Sonic does work in Sonic Adventure DX, true. ...But he has way less animations and even has his own alternate idle where he leans forward, meaning he's not a straight-out skin. Just mostly. It's almost comparable to Daisy in a way, bar Daisy requiring more work.

So it could go either way. Can his specific limbs be easy enough to animate with the specific moves(kicks/punches) Sonic does? Or do the specific digits due to different pieces matter? That's more or less the point of what SuperSonicFlyer means. He can easily use the moves in theory, but it depends the real work required. If it's very little, no issues. Ironically this isn't an issue for Shadow since his body is almost identical bar the hair being a shaped like Super Sonic's.

Note that I never animated the difference in digits among games I've worked on, so it's all in theory. But it's definitely something to think on.

The details thing was what I was trying to say, actually. Thanks for pointing that out.

By the way, for his Final Smash, Metal should turn into his Thailand Bootleg plush form and go “Hue Hue!” LOL

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

This seems more like people are trying to say a character will be an echo even though they have not played their games, like those who thought K. Rool would be an echo of Bowser.

I genuinely don't remember anyone saying this and if they did they were presumably laughed out of the room because this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is no way equitable to making a robotic version of Sonic into a clone of Sonic with a couple different moves and a new Final Smash.

 

[Perkilator]

I genuinely don't remember anyone saying this and if they did they were presumably laughed out of the room because this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is no way equitable to making a robotic version of Sonic into a clone of Sonic with a couple different moves and a new Final Smash.

I remember this being said once on the Sonic Stadium message boards about six and a half years ago, prior to K. Rool’s reveal…except they suggested he be DK’s Echo.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I genuinely don't remember anyone saying this and if they did they were presumably laughed out of the room because this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is no way equitable to making a robotic version of Sonic into a clone of Sonic with a couple different moves and a new Final Smash.

Believe me, I have heard about people saying that about K. Rool. It must have happened in some places.

On that note, I can imagine Metal Sonic doing punches and kicks in a more robotic way, given how he does tricks in 2 player of Sonic Adventure 2.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

The other Echo Fighters have kinda already demonstrated that having unique abilities doesn't save you from being turned into a carbon copy.

Same with stuff that aren’t associated with the character.

Like how Daisy isn’t really associated with Toad for example. Lucina and Chrom don’t have access to counter in Awakening.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Metal Sonic can easily be an Echo. He has before.

However his case would be a bit egregious for one reason. Sakurai explicitly designed Sonic's standard attacks after his Fighters move pool.

Metal Sonic....has his own in the exact same game. By default Metal would outright push what counts as an Echo further than Ken.

 

[SPEN18]

Lucina and Chrom don’t have access to counter in Awakening

This doesn't have anything to do with your point, just a gripe with the example: the down special counters on the FE characters never had anything to do with the Counter skill in FE (assuming this is what you're referencing). The down specials are meant to simulate the tactical gameplay of FE, which often requires you to carefully place your units in order to bait the enemy towards you, after which you strike them back with advantageous numbers and positioning. That and/or just the simple fact that units in FE can always counterattack on enemy phase in general (well, usually).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This doesn't have anything to do with your point, just a gripe with the example: the down special counters on the FE characters never had anything to do with the Counter skill in FE (assuming this is what you're referencing). The down specials are meant to simulate the tactical gameplay of FE, which often requires you to carefully place your units in order to bait the enemy towards you, after which you strike them back with advantageous numbers and positioning. That and/or just the simple fact that units in FE can always counterattack on enemy phase in general (well, usually).

Yeah, that was always the intent. After all, the Counter in Smash actually predates the namesake skill in the FE series by 4 years.

 

[DarthEnderX]

"Who's coming back" is literally just the other half of "who's gonna be added?" The second question is more exciting, but I think it's still fun to narrow down who's likely to return, especially with how huge Ultimate's roster is and how much of a mystery Smash 6's roster size is.

Not only do I not care about who's "likely" to return, I don't even care about "likely" newcomers.

I want to hear who people WANT. Not who they think we're gonna GET.

but I do think most people overestimate how much they'll miss a particular character when they have a brand new game with loads of redesigns and 15+ new characters to play

Every character is SOMEBODY'S particular character. And people are gonna wish that character was here, fighting those new characters.

Gotta learn to be excited about the characters who will be playable and spend less energy thinking about the ones left behind.

No I don't.

Gonna pull the "that's how literally every other fighting game series works" card.

Except it's not. Both Tekken Tag Tournament games were basically EiH games. And KoF has had several "dream match" games that basically brought back all the previous characters.

 

[Sophitia]

Not only do I not care about who's "likely" to return, I don't even care about "likely" newcomers.

I want to hear who people WANT. Not who they think we're gonna GET.

Every character is SOMEBODY'S particular character. And people are gonna wish that character was here, fighting those new characters.

No I don't.

Except it's not. Both Tekken Tag Tournament games were basically EiH games. And KoF has had several "dream match" games that basically brought back all the previous characters.

I don't really talk about who I want necessarily because I figure there's not much point to hoping for a character who's not likely to get in anyway.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't really talk about who I want necessarily because I figure there's not much point to hoping for a character who's not likely to get in anyway.

I don't have any interest in "likely" discussions because everyone predicts the same 20 or so characters.

At least different people WANT different characters. It's more interesting.

**** it, one character from each of these companies that I think would be cool in smash

505 - Pass
ArcSys - Kunio/Riki [River City]
Atlus - Pass
Bamco - Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
Capcom - Arthur [Ghosts n' Goblins]
Nippon Columbia - Pass
Cygames - Pass
Devolver - Pass
EA - Avatar [Ultima]
Epic - Jonesy [Fortnite]
Falcom - Estelle Bright [Legend of Heroes]
Fromsoft - Patches [Souls]
FuRyu - Pass
Gungho - Pass
Hamster - Pass
IF - Pass
Imagineer - Pass
Koei - Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
Konami - Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
Level 5 - Layton [Professor Layton]
Marvelous - Pass
Microsoft - Corvo Attano [Dishonored]
Nexon - Pass
Nis - Laharl [Disgaea]
Sega - Kazuma Kiryu [Like A Dragon]
Spike Chunsoft - Shiren [Shiren the Wanderer]
Square Enix - Bub/Bob [Bubble Bobble]
Takara Tomy - Pass
Take2 - CJ [Grand Theft Auto]
THQ Nordic - War [Darksiders]
Ubisoft - The Prince [Prince of Persia]]
WB - Scorpion [Mortal Kombat]

 

[dream1ng]

Not only do I not care about who's "likely" to return, I don't even care about "likely" newcomers.

I want to hear who people WANT. Not who they think we're gonna GET.

Great, and others can engage in actual speculation while you can keep posting that same fighter pass image.

Every character is SOMEBODY'S particular character. And people are gonna wish that character was here, fighting those new characters.

Yeah, and then 98% of them are going to accept how things panned out and embrace whatever the new game for what it is. Because most people may get disappointed but can still roll with change.

No I don't.

Ok, feel free to stay mad characters got cut once everyone else is already on to how cool whatever new thing looks.

Quite the favor you're doing yourself here.

Except it's not. Both Tekken Tag Tournament games were basically EiH games. And KoF has had several "dream match" games that basically brought back all the previous characters.

"basically"

because they weren't EiH. And Tag Tournament 2 still had ~30 characters less than Ultimate.

Now look at 90% of these respective series where the cuts were more pronounced instead of just the titles you want. That is how most series work, because if you're just looking at isolated games, you're not looking at the series as a whole.

And even in these examples, the titles that bring back a bunch of characters are interspersed among ones that make cuts, they're not sequential like this would be. So if you were to look at a Tag Tournament game, after that it'd be a normal Tekken with normal cuts.

Tekken as a series, KoF as a series are not ones that retain basically all characters every game.

 

[Dukefire]

Another off topic for a bit. For those that reads the Archie comics, they have something arriving on April 2nd.

Not to sound like a coincidence, but it looks like April 2nd seems to be an interesting selection so far.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Another off topic for a bit. For those that reads the Archie comics, they have something arriving on April 2nd.
View attachment 399722
Not to sound like a coincidence, but it looks like April 2nd seems to be an interesting selection so far.

They're gonna add Minecraft Archie in the next Smash

 

[DarthEnderX]

Great, and others can engage in actual speculation while you can keep posting that same fighter pass image.

I like how you frame everyone reposting the same 10 character predictions as if that's somehow less repetitive than people reposting their wishlists.

At least people have different wishlists. Everyone's prediction lists are the same.

Ok, feel free to stay mad characters got cut once everyone else is already on to how cool whatever new thing looks.

Quite the favor you're doing yourself here.

I'm comfortable with it.

And Tag Tournament 2 still had ~30 characters less than Ultimate.

And Tekken characters are twice as complicated as Smash characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Another off topic for a bit. For those that reads the Archie comics, they have something arriving on April 2nd.

Huh. Was not expecting to see Lyra cosplay in 2025.

 

[cashregister9]

Another off topic for a bit. For those that reads the Archie comics, they have something arriving on April 2nd.
View attachment 399722
Not to sound like a coincidence, but it looks like April 2nd seems to be an interesting selection so far.

Somehow Shantae being referenced is more shocking to me than this

 

[Dukefire]

Somehow Shantae being referenced is more shocking to me than this

Sheesh....didn't see that coming. Archie just crosses over with any popular series don't they?

Also, seeing Shantae of all characters Archie chooses to reference. It just shows that she has come a LONG WAY since her humble beginnings in 2002 on the GBC.

 

[Sophitia]

As for who I want, my order goes generally Nintendo characters (especially since it means more secondary or obscure characters), then Japanese third-party, then Western third-party.

Some of the characters I think would be cool to see are Lyn, Black Shadow (if they're going to change Ganondorf's moveset), Waluigi, Urbosa, Twintelle, Ayumi.

For third-party out of characters whom I think have a chance I'd go with Ryu Hayabusa, a Resident Evil rep and 2B.

 

[fogbadge]

on the subject of sonic echoes/clones I always thought Sega would push for it to be Classic Sonic.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Considering Metal Sonic was literally created to be a robotic version of Sonic and believes he's the real Sonic, he's the most reasonable choice for an Echo. Just give him more malicious/robotic movements and maybe change Up Throw since it relies on Sonic's head spikes, either to do the same thing but with the booster on his back or something like ROB where he floats up a bit and slams the opponent back down, probably a different Up Special, I could see him doing everything else Sonic does tbh.

He might have like slightly different hitboxes and stuff, but like that's fine, I don't want another Daisy/Richter situation here lol

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Also Metal overlord as a transformation final smash would be pretty sick.

Tho of course the transformation won’t take as long as it takes here lol.

 

[Gengar84]

I genuinely don't remember anyone saying this and if they did they were presumably laughed out of the room because this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is no way equitable to making a robotic version of Sonic into a clone of Sonic with a couple different moves and a new Final Smash.

Funnily enough, I think King Koopa from the Super Mario Bros. Super Show could actually work pretty well as a K. Rool Echo. In game Bowser and K. Rool are way too different for that to have ever worked.

Darth, I totally agree that it’s more fun to talk about characters you’d love to see than making prediction lists since the characters on wishlists are more varied and there’s more passion behind the discussions but both are fine topics if people want to talk about them. I’m curious to hear you elaborate on some of your favorites and what you think they could bring to Smash. Anyone else feel free to share your thoughts on your own favorites too.

On the subject of cuts, while I’d much rather not cut anyone, these are the characters I’d me most okay with losing if we had to:

Piranha Plant
Dr. Mario
Toon Link
Young Link
Jigglypuff
Pichu
Incineroar
Roy
Corrin
Chrom
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Duck Hunt
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii
Bayonetta
Steve
Snake

 

[Perkilator]

DarthEnderX when the next Smash game cuts lots of veterans but makes up for that with improved online and single player (it’s not EiH on a loop forever and ever)

You know, never mind the fact that Ultimate’s still going to be playable on Switch 2, so you can still play as any cut veterans that way.

 

[Gengar84]

DarthEnderX when the next Smash game cuts characters but makes up for that with improved online and single player (it’s not EiH on a loop forever and ever)
View attachment 399723

I know online is very important to a ton of Smash fans but I personally don’t care about it. I much prefer playing Smash with my brother and friends at my house. Not saying it shouldn’t be a focus in general but it’s not something that would make up for a ton of cuts for me. A much improved co-op/single player mode like Subspace Emissary would help a lot but I’d still miss the huge roster.

The problem I have with the logic “You can just play as your favorites in Ultimate” is that you lose the opportunity to see those characters interact or crossover with anyone new. Like if I’d have loved to see Joker face off against Jinx, for example, I lose that if Joker is cut. Same goes for any number of other potential missed opportunities if the character is cut. I’d also lose the ability to play Joker (or whoever is cut) in whatever story mode the game might have. If I really loved the character, it will be a huge letdown knowing I won’t be able to see them at all in the story. Those characters would also be stuck with a dated game that most people are tired of and want to move on.

To sum up my thoughts, I realize cuts are going to be inevitable at some point even if by some miracle we don’t get any in Smash 6. For me though, it’s not as simple as “Just keep playing the old game” since those characters miss out on any future game improvements and interactions.

 

[Garteam]

DarthEnderX when the next Smash game cuts lots of veterans but makes up for that with improved online and single player (it’s not EiH on a loop forever and ever)
View attachment 399723

You know, never mind the fact that Ultimate’s still going to be playable on Switch 2, so you can still play as any cut veterans that way.

I'll be honest, improved online and single-player would not make up for 30+ cuts for me, especially if a lot of those cuts primarily culled the third parties back to pre-Ultimate levels.

Smash, to me, is ultimately a couch co-op game to play with your buddies/at parties that is essentially the video game equivalent of banging action figures into each other. When the toybox gets smaller, the core gameplay gets worse, IMO.

They could maybe make this up for the losses if the newcomer selection was particularly strong in my eyes, but that would have to involve more than just mechanically going from Switch release to Switch release and adding a character for the sake of adding a character. I.E. I would expect more than just having this Smash be "the one with a lot of Switch reps".

It's fine if people feel differently and all the more power to them if they have different tastes than me, but I figure I would get my opinion out.

 

[BrawlX10]

I'll be honest, improved online and single-player would not make up for 30+ cuts for me, especially if a lot of those cuts primarily culled the third parties back to pre-Ultimate levels.

Smash, to me, is ultimately a couch co-op game to play with your buddies/at parties that is essentially the video game equivalent of banging action figures into each other. When the toybox gets smaller, the core gameplay gets worse, IMO.

They could maybe make this up for the losses if the newcomer selection was particularly strong in my eyes, but that would have to involve more than just mechanically going from Switch release to Switch release and adding a character for the sake of adding a character. I.E. I would expect more than just having this Smash be "the one with a lot of Switch reps".

It's fine if people feel differently and all the more power to them if they have different tastes than me, but I figure I would get my opinion out.

That's related to what i was trying to say earlier, for plenty of people smash bros is about the roster and the gameplay is a bonus, thus cuts can break the game for them doesn't matter what improvements there is, there's a reason why Ultimate Deluxe is a popular request, a lot of people don't care about the gameplay, stages, modes, items, new mechanics, reworks, new artstyle....they just want to see the roster grow with no cuts, whatsoever.
I'm on the Smash 6 side as i'm more of a gameplay guy, but people on the Smash 6 side needs to understand that not everyone cares about the series a fresh coat of paint every 6-7 years and just want to see the roster grow, people have diferent mindsets.
Same thing happened with Mario Kart, some people wanteed to stick with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and wanted to see the game expand, while others wanted to move on and have a coat of fresh paint with MK9.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You know, never mind the fact that Ultimate’s still going to be playable on Switch 2, so you can still play as any cut veterans that way.

Cut veterans can't fight newcomers!

 

[Gengar84]

That's related to what i was trying to say earlier, for plenty of people smash bros is about the roster and the gameplay is a bonus, thus cuts can break the game for them doesn't matter what improvements there is, there's a reason why Ultimate Deluxe is a popular request, a lot of people don't care about the gameplay, stages, modes, items, new mechanics, reworks, new artstyle....they just want to see the roster grow with no cuts, whatsoever.
I'm on the Smash 6 side as i'm more of a gameplay guy, but people on the Smash 6 side needs to understand that not everyone cares about the series a fresh coat of paint every 6-7 years and just want to see the roster grow, people have diferent mindsets.
Same thing happened with Mario Kart, some people wanteed to stick with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and wanted to see the game expand, while others wanted to move on and have a coat of fresh paint with MK9.

I think I’m somewhere in the middle. I still want a big roster full of exciting characters but I’d be okay with cutting some characters (such as the ones I posted above). I’d rather not see cuts but if it means we get more newcomers, I can accept that since I might end up liking the new roster even more. As long as I keep my absolute favorites, I’m okay. I do care about all the other stuff too like single player modes and gameplay improvements but they are admirably secondary to the roster to me. If there aren’t many characters left I’d be personally excited to play as, it’s harder to care whether the ones we still had get buffs or a few new moves.

 

[Dukefire]

For a trip down memory lane, I started to play Brawl's story mode: Subspace Emissary. So far, finished the level with Link and Yoshi.
King Dedede outplayed Wario and took Ness, Zelda and Luigi with the cart.

 

[Sophitia]

Just do like Street Fighter III: New Generation then and cut everyone but Mario and Luigi and have everyone else be newcomers.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Honestly I'm giving up to the idea they will surely cut some characters to make room for the newcomers because they have to.
I don't think they can make a larger or much larger roster than the actual one.And even a slightly larger roster will be an effort.
So I'm pretty sure they concentrate their synergy more on the game structure first, improving the classic mode and implementing a story mode worth of that definition, hopefully focused primarily on the gameplay and secondarily the lore, like Bad Dudes Vs. DragonNinja.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No matter how you go about it, losing any character absolutely sucks. But unfortunately, that's how reality works. Characters get cut for various reasons.

And yeah, you won't be able to enjoy how a character interacts with a new one either. That's part of it. That's why the whole "play the old game" isn't a sound argument. Sure, business-wise, it makes sense to avoid a port. It's already there, especially when backwards compatibility exists. It still sucks otherwise.

Plus, mechanics change. As well as movesets. Bowser's changes are minor all things considered, but feel quite big. Same with Ganondorf's sword usage having a new feel, how Link works, and many others. In that case, sometimes you don't want to play a different game, cause it feels too different. It's a crapshoot either way, to be honest.

 

[Gengar84]

No matter how you go about it, losing any character absolutely sucks. But unfortunately, that's how reality works. Characters get cut for various reasons.

And yeah, you won't be able to enjoy how a character interacts with a new one either. That's part of it. That's why the whole "play the old game" isn't a sound argument. Sure, business-wise, it makes sense to avoid a port. It's already there, especially when backwards compatibility exists. It still sucks otherwise.

Plus, mechanics change. As well as movesets. Bowser's changes are minor all things considered, but feel quite big. Same with Ganondorf's sword usage having a new feel, how Link works, and many others. In that case, sometimes you don't want to play a different game, cause it feels too different. It's a crapshoot either way, to be honest.

I think I’m alone in this since Bowser is much better competitively now but I do miss his Melee attacks. His forward grab and bite special was so brutal and I preferred his headbutt and claw swipes to his drop kick and punches. He was also able to have a much bigger and more imposing model before due to the fact that he was hunched forward. When they made him stand straight up, they had to shrink his model as a result. Ganondorf felt the most satisfying to play in Melee when he was a more direct Falcon clone. Those are just two examples to me how changes don’t necessarily mean it will be more fun for everyone.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think I’m alone in this since Bowser is much better competitively now but I do miss his Melee attacks. His forward grab and bite special was so brutal and I preferred his headbutt and claw swipes to his drop kick and punches. He was also able to have a much bigger and more imposing model before due to the fact that he was hunched forward. When they made him stand straight up, they had to shrink his model as a result. Ganondorf felt the most satisfying to play in Melee when he was a more direct Falcon clone. Those are just two examples to me how changes don’t necessarily mean it will be more fun for everyone.

For Ganondorf, I do prefer his Flame Choke and his Brawl/4 Smash Attacks, and his attacks felt more satisfying to land in Brawl/4. However, he was definitely better when he wasn't hyper slow. I prefer his Melee and Ultimate speed, but his Brawl/4 attacks. The Swords just didn't really do it for me. Not that I don't appreciate the idea either. Funnily enough, I'm much better at using him in 4 than in Ultimate. To the point I can give a lot of "good" characters still some trouble(albeit, the tourneys are pretty low end).

I preferred Bowser as a kaiju too. I would be good with Giga Bowser or Dry Bowser being a clone that is more based around the Melee moveset, though(notably, this is the case in Smash 4. Giga Bowser, when you play as him, retains his Melee/Brawl moves and animations, a really cool thing). Incidentally, Giga Bowser has so many changes that he'd work only as a semi-clone(especially if using the Melee/Brawl animations and moves), while Dry Bowser could actually work as a clone or echo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just do like Street Fighter III: New Generation then and cut everyone but Mario and Luigi and have everyone else be newcomers.

bottomtext

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

Just do like Street Fighter III: New Generation then and cut everyone but Mario and Luigi-

No, everyone but Captain Falcon and Fox.

 

[BrawlX10]

Just do like Street Fighter III: New Generation then and cut everyone but Mario and Luigi and have everyone else be newcomers.

That sounds kinda fun actually, specially competitive-wise as we'll be using completely unfamilar characters (except M&L)
But yeah, that's something that would be cool for a fan-game, for a official smash game it would be a disaster, and i'm begin conservative with the word "disaster".

 

[Dukefire]

So, what are your opinion on the 3 piece item of the legendary Dragoon (added since brawl) and/or Daybreak (added in Smash 4 after Kid Icarus Uprising) weapon? Both are made by Sakurai.

 

[BrawlX10]

So, what are your opinion on the 3 piece item of the legendary Dragoon (added since brawl) and/or Daybreak (added in Smash 4 after Kid Icarus Uprising) weapon? Both are made by Sakurai.

They're a fun concept, but i think having 2 of them is a bit unecesary, i dunno. I always felt like the Daybreak isn't as hype as the Dragoon, so i wouldn't mind the Daybreak not coming back after Ult, tbh.

For a trip down memory lane, I started to play Brawl's story mode: Subspace Emissary. So far, finished the level with Link and Yoshi.
King Dedede outplayed Wario and took Ness, Zelda and Luigi with the cart.

I played Smash 4 WiiU a week ago or so....and cutsom moves were honestly....hiliarous. One of Villager custom moves involves planting a sapling that makes whoever that touches it....trip, it was hiliarously broken. But i'm honestly fine with custom moves staying Smash 4 exclusive, it's development time that could go everywhere else.
Honestly, Smash 4 WiiU is such a weird game and goofy in general, like what the hell is even that "Classic Mode"? What the hell is "Smash Tour" lmao.