Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CosmicEternity44]

I’m partial to the Braw stage clear theme myself, and would love to hear a new arrangement of it.

Woah, never heard that in its full glory. I still like the Melee and 64 versions, but now...that music you posted can tag along with the others I posted earlier.

 

[ninjahmos]

I’m partial to the Braw stage clear theme myself, and would love to hear a new arrangement of it.

That'd be nice, but I kinda prefer this one:

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think the ballot should be forgotten at this point. It's a 10 year old poll, opinions on characters have changed a lot through the years. Many most requested characters right now either didn't existed at all (like Gen 8 or 9 Pokémon, Xenoblade 3 characters, many indie characters like Hollow knight, Hades etc.) or were not really relevent (like Crash Bandicoot for example). Besides, it's not very true that Ultimate didn't used the ballot for the newcomers and only used it for the veterans. While it was never stayed officially, I'm pretty confident that Ridley, K. Rool, Simon Belmont, Hero, Banjo and Sora (this one is confirmed) were chosen on the ballot (of course there was probably other factors, but I'm sure those characters were all very high).

While I do agree that it's outdated, I feel like the Ballot could be used for a couple of characters that may not have fit into Ultimate's small base roster or its primarily third party DLC.

Not EVERY newcomer of course, but like at least a couple/a few of the newcomers alongside some more contemporary picks like Smash usually does.

And then I wouldn't mind if they did a new Ballot to get a fresh list after everything for the next Smash was wrapping up, though I know some people don't agree with that for various reasons.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Lot of the assist trophies likely were placed highly but weren't chosen for priority reasons such as Waluigi, Skull Kid, Issac, Shadow and etc.

You know, in that earlier post I mentioned making, not the one CaptaineCrash quoted, but another, longer one some pages back, I mentioned that characters like those you mentioned may have been out-prioritized, especially Waluigi and Isaac, because their movesets had to be original, and that would take more time, and it would have probably been easier to make them Assist Trophies again with Everyone is Here.

I believe this is the post in question.

Official - Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

If you’re going to go through the trouble to make a fake leak, at least make it interesting. Where’s the fun if all the characters are the safest possible choices you could go with?

smashboards.com

 

[BritishGuy54]

So, Xenoblade, Splatoon and ARMS don't have items.

Let's give them some!

For Xenoblade, I do have some proposals.

The Core Crystal (Xenoblade 2) is a good candidate, with being able to summon random Blades to assist you in battle. The only problem might be that it might be too similar to a PokéBall or an Assist Trophy.

Maybe the Ouroboros Stone (Xenoblade 3) is also an option. Effectively having a stand in battle would cool, but giving every character an Ouroboros would be overkill.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

You know, in that earlier post I mentioned making, not the one CaptaineCrash quoted, but another, longer one some pages back, I mentioned that characters like those you mentioned may have been out-prioritized, especially Waluigi and Isaac, because their movesets had to be original, and that would take more time, and it would have probably been easier to make them Assist Trophies again with Everyone is Here.

I believe this is the post in question.

Official - Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

If you’re going to go through the trouble to make a fake leak, at least make it interesting. Where’s the fun if all the characters are the safest possible choices you could go with?

smashboards.com

I think the lack of new stages also indirectly hurts some characters chance like Isaac or Rhythm heaven characters because they usually would have add a stage for those franchise alongside those characters. So I think this is why they put priority towards existing franchise, even Incineroar didn't come with a stage.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

In addition to Assist Trophies, characters who did not have a model and were not Assist Trophies to begin with, like Bandana Waddle Dee and Dixie Kong, would require more time than the Assist Trophy characters, as they, as I said, did not have a model to be in Smash matches to begin with, and with Everyone is Here, that probably meant less time and less prioritization for those characters.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The Core Crystal (Xenoblade 2) is a good candidate, with being able to summon random Blades to assist you in battle. The only problem might be that it might be too similar to a PokéBall or an Assist Trophy.

Having another series-specific summoning item would actually be cool. You could have the Blades fight more closely alongside you, like doing attacks to follow up your own attacks, and enhancing your stats. Then it'd be different enough from the other summoning items.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I think the lack of new stages also indirectly hurts some characters chance like Isaac or Rhythm heaven characters because they usually would have add a stage for those franchise alongside those characters. So I think this is why they put priority towards existing franchise, even Incineroar didn't come with a stage.

Very nice thoughts! Incineroar was from Pokemon, and Pokemon had a good number of stages already, but I'd say Incineroar does still count toward your point on stages overall.

Now, for something I must address, to you.

I agree that the ballot is no longer something that can be used for future Smash games well, especially in terms of future characters, or at least characters who weren't available to be in the Ballot back then. I was talking more so about the Ballot back then and the time of Smash Bros. Ultimate's development, which were old but very close together. However, Xenoblade 3, maybe Astral Chain, Undertale as Thegameandwatch mentioned, among others were not really around for the Ballot, so I could not use the Ballot in the "now" sense, if you know what I mean, if I tried.

 

[SharkLord]

While I do agree that it's outdated, I feel like the Ballot could be used for a couple of characters that may not have fit into Ultimate's small base roster or its primarily third party DLC.

Not EVERY newcomer of course, but like at least a couple/a few of the newcomers alongside some more contemporary picks like Smash usually does.

And then I wouldn't mind if they did a new Ballot to get a fresh list after everything for the next Smash was wrapping up, though I know some people don't agree with that for various reasons.

Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Even accounting for popular veterans like Snake or Wolf, and DLC characters like Banjo, Sora, and (presumably in Japan) Hero, Ultimate's base newcomers were ultra-crunched, with almost half of them getting by because they're clones. I'd imagine there's at least one or two characters who did very well on the ballot but just didn't have the time to be added, and Sakurai might want to give them another chance for Smash 6

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Even accounting for popular veterans like Snake or Wolf, and DLC characters like Banjo, Sora, and (presumably in Japan) Hero, Ultimate's base newcomers were ultra-crunched, with almost half of them getting by because they're clones. I'd imagine there's at least one or two characters who did very well on the ballot but just didn't have the time to be added, and Sakurai might want to give them another chance for Smash 6

EXACTLY, Sharklord! I was trying to say something like that, myself!

Anyway, in review, I was just noticing things and pointing them out, and what I noticed, as obvious as it could be already, was that more unique newcomers could likely come to the next Smash Bros., which might be so if Everyone is Here does not happen again, which I bet it won't.

Thing is, we are stuck in speculating the one question we don't really know: Who will be newcomers in the next Smash Bros.? Which is fine, and still fun. I could see Waluigi, Bandana Dee and maybe Dixie Kong get in, and given the backlash Sakurai received when making Waluigi an Assist Trophy in Ultimate, he probably has little reason to do it again, given he'll probably have more time to add characters like him.

 

[Kirbeh]

So, question.

One that I'm lifting from an Eventhubs article actually: Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

We kinda sorta touch on this every now and again but it's moreso in relation to people not being able to decide on who is essential. I just want to focus on the main question without going into individual characters.

Is it more important to maintain legacy or to introduce fresh faces?

DarthEnderX probably already saw it on EH and we all know his answer so just hit us with the Simpsons again.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

So, question.

One that I'm lifting from an Eventhubs article actually: Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

We kinda sorta touch on this every now and again but it's moreso in relation to people not being able to decide on who is essential. I just want to focus on the main question without going into individual characters.

Is it more important to maintain legacy or to introduce fresh faces?

DarthEnderX probably already saw it on EH and we all know his answer so just hit us with the Simpsons again.

To me, it depends on how essential they are. If they were the original 8, or maybe the original 12, I could see them staying the whole series. There are some exceptions, like Captain Falcon and perhaps Ness, as those have not appeared in a game for a while, have they not? Anyway, if characters are essential in terms of importance to their series and maybe gaming, in terms of Nintendo characters, that is, then maybe Peach, Zelda, Bowser and others could stay. I see Ice Climbers as essential, but not in the way like other characters, to the point that they have not had a new game in years, and if they can't work in a future Smash game for some reason like in Smash 4, I can see them not be essential enough to stay. To me, they are important in a main cast kind of way, but not in an ongoing series kind of way.

Anyway, for fighting games in general, they should try to work on the essential characters as much as they can, even in terms of legacy. However, they should bring in fresh faces as well. Maybe not by a whole lot or too many, but it is important to keep things fresh as well as having to work with the old. Both old and new can be important for a fighting game. I bet an all new roster like that of Street Fighter III did not go that well with fans.

It's a bit complicated, but you might be able to see what I mean.

 

[Will]

So, question.

One that I'm lifting from an Eventhubs article actually: Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

We kinda sorta touch on this every now and again but it's moreso in relation to people not being able to decide on who is essential. I just want to focus on the main question without going into individual characters.

Is it more important to maintain legacy or to introduce fresh faces?

DarthEnderX probably already saw it on EH and we all know his answer so just hit us with the Simpsons again.

Maybe for other games with characters important to its universe. I can see this as a problem in Tekken where “essential” characters are recently becoming locked to DLC slots in recent games, like Anna Williams. Street Fighter is introducing successors to certain characters’ legacies as a way to circumvent this issue.

Smash is a game that celebrates gaming in general, Nintendo, not Nintendo, very rarely sometimes upcoming Nintendo games. The hardest part is selecting a few out of many options within the development time. We hear stories all the time about who Sakurai would have added if he had more time.

I think the “who” part of the question is the most important for Smash as an exception to other fighting games. A fresh face in Smash could be an old legacy character from the 90s. And then we have Roy, a not-so important character in the scheme of Fire Emblem that was demanded back in the game after his first cut because he’s him.

 

[SharkLord]

So, question.

One that I'm lifting from an Eventhubs article actually: Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

We kinda sorta touch on this every now and again but it's moreso in relation to people not being able to decide on who is essential. I just want to focus on the main question without going into individual characters.

Is it more important to maintain legacy or to introduce fresh faces?

DarthEnderX probably already saw it on EH and we all know his answer so just hit us with the Simpsons again.

Might be the lazy way out but I think you have to keep a balance. If it's always just more of the same, things will get stale, but people get attatched to these veterans and they want to see more of them. If you cut them, that's cutting out a potential draw that people liked about the older games, especially for long-running series that have a wide range of newcomers. It's a bit easier to manage now that we have DLC, but relegating the bulk of the vets or newcomers to extra purchases outside the base game opens it's own can of worms. You still gotta get a good balance of old fan-favorites and fresh faces as a foundation, and build up from there

 

[HyperSomari64]

Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

7 Palabras
(Art by TablosAF)
sorry for being off-topic

 

[SPEN18]

Possibly the best way to think about the ballot is that even though it's dated, a fact that will likely be considered to some extent, they also can't unsee the results, so if a character did well enough to garner some attention from Sakurai, it's fair to guess that character will still be on the radar going forward and is likely going to have the evolving state of their demand on monitor by Sakurai and the team.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Revisiting the Ballot?

Finally its time. :V

 

[Louie G.]

So, question.

One that I'm lifting from an Eventhubs article actually: Are "essential" characters becoming a problem for fighting game rosters?

Yes and no. If I get into too many specifics it will become too much of a matter of taste, but I do generally think the obligation to have x or y character can turn a roster long-term if those characters get exclusive seats over more flavorful, original characters. Smash hasn't suffered too much from this yet but this could certainly start to reveal itself as a problem if/when we need to lose a sufficient amount of the roster instead of just 5 or 6 mostly derivative characters.

A personal view I've shared in the past reflects this fairly well. I think Incineroar offers more to the roster dynamically compared to Lucario. I think Incineroar is one of the better designed characters in the game and Lucario is one of the worst. In my experience, Lucario is an unpopular character to play and I see people represent Incineroar online and in tournament decently often. But most people here would agree that Lucario is a somewhat essential addition due to his external popularity and marketability, and that Incineroar is expendable due to his lack thereof. In this scenario, I think this theoretical mindset is unfortunate because it dismisses every factor that is relevant to actual gameplay in favor of objective checklist mentality. Essentiality can obstruct what I view as exciting.

But Smash is fortunately a game that prioritizes originality and roster dynamics from the jump. Most of the essential characters in Smash are also fun, popular and/or unique in their own right to provide the game with a diverse spread of archetypes and gameplay opportunities. Samus, Kirby, Fox, Ness, Captain Falcon, Bowser... all would be considered essential components of the series and are still carrying their weight. But next game offers the first time where this complaint could start to rear its head as a relevant talking point... in which case, we'll get there if we get there I suppose.

In a lesser series Everyone is Here would have created a relative drought of exciting newcomers but instead I think all of UItimate's base fighters were great choices. They were efficient with what limited space and time they had. So truthfully, I think Smash is good at subverting this concern but again, it might hit a more sour spot when we have to lose more fighters and see who sticks around and is added instead.

 

[DarthEnderX]

DarthEnderX probably already saw it on EH and we all know his answer so just hit us with the Simpsons again.

Yes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes and no. If I get into too many specifics it will become too much of a matter of taste, but I do generally think the obligation to have x or y character can turn a roster long-term if those characters get exclusive seats over more flavorful, original characters. Smash hasn't suffered too much from this yet but this could certainly start to reveal itself as a problem if/when we need to lose a sufficient amount of the roster instead of just 5 or 6 mostly derivative characters.

A personal view I've shared in the past reflects this fairly well. I think Incineroar offers more to the roster dynamically compared to Lucario. I think Incineroar is one of the better designed characters in the game and Lucario is one of the worst. In my experience, Lucario is an unpopular character to play and I see people represent Incineroar online and in tournament decently often. But most people here would agree that Lucario is a somewhat essential addition due to his external popularity and marketability, and that Incineroar is expendable due to his lack thereof. In this scenario, I think this theoretical mindset is unfortunate because it dismisses every factor that is relevant to actual gameplay in favor of objective checklist mentality. Essentiality can obstruct what I view as exciting.

But Smash is fortunately a game that prioritizes originality and roster dynamics from the jump. Most of the essential characters in Smash are also fun, popular and/or unique in their own right to provide the game with a diverse spread of archetypes and gameplay opportunities. Samus, Kirby, Fox, Ness, Captain Falcon, Bowser... all would be considered essential components of the series and are still carrying their weight. But next game offers the first time where this complaint could start to rear its head as a relevant talking point... in which case, we'll get there if we get there I suppose.

In a lesser series Everyone is Here would have created a relative drought of exciting newcomers but instead I think all of UItimate's base fighters were great choices. They were efficient with what limited space and time they had. So truthfully, I think Smash is good at subverting this concern but again, it might hit a more sour spot when we have to lose more fighters and see who sticks around and is added instead.

I think part of the issue is that Smash Bros fighters don't exist in a vacuum. If Street Fighter or Tekken make a character that isn't particularly popular or fun to play, no one bats an eye when they're cut.

But Smash can't simply do just that. You can't cut Spronglo Beezu. He's the sole representative of his franchise and without him, that popular franchise would have nothing. And hey, even if playing Spronglo is like having your foot blown off with a landmine, you may still love the franchise and the character in that franchise, just not in Smash.

If Rufus doesn't take off with Street Fighter fans, oh well, they can try something different. But if Lucario doesn't take off with Smash fans, they can't cut him or the millions of Pokemon fans may feel alienated and slighted. In the context of Pokemon, Lucario is essential, and Smash inherits that baggage. Smash's nature as a company wide crossover has inflated this "essential" list.

Also don't cut Lucario, I'm like one of the three people who like how he's played.

 

[Shinuto]

Here's a fun nonsense hypothetical. If ALL current third parties were instead first party nintendo IPs, how would you view their series representation? in terms of stages, music, characters ATs/items etc and their timing of being introduced to Smash.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Here's a fun nonsense hypothetical. If ALL current third parties were instead first party nintendo IPs, how would you view their series representation? in terms of stages, music, chracters ATs/items etc and their timing of being introduced to Smash.

Well, I see Sonic and maybe Mega Man get more representation, if anything, like in terms of characters, Knuckles, Tails, Shadow and maybe Eggman for Sonic and characters like Mega Man X and Zero for Mega Man

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Here's a fun nonsense hypothetical. If ALL current third parties were instead first party nintendo IPs, how would you view their series representation? in terms of stages, music, chracters ATs/items etc and their timing of being introduced to Smash.

I think the number of Sonic characters which is only one would be more controversial.

 

[BrawlX10]

So, Xenoblade, Splatoon and ARMS don't have items.

Let's give them some!

Xenoblade:

• Riki's Bitter: Based on the default Bitter from Xenoblade Chronicles 1 (XC1), this item deals weak physical damage, slightly better than the removed fan item. When charged, it allows the use of some of Riki's XC1 arts, effectively replacing the Riki AT.
• Drill Shield: Inspired by Poppi's Drill Shield from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (XC2), this item blocks all projectiles and attacks when deployed, counter-attacking with the drill.

Splatoon:

• Splash Wall: Deploys a stationary wall that spreads ink from both sides, damaging opponents without causing knockback.
• Reefslider: Functions like a grounded Bullet Bill, moving along a set path and dealing multiple hits to opponents in its way.
• Wave Breaker: Releases up to three expanding shockwaves that damage.

ARMS:

• Shock Bomb: A bomb that bounces around the stage when hit, exploding in a stunning blast upon detonation. It cannot be picked up.
• Hedlok Mask: A powerful item that allows the user to attack with the mask's ARMS, delivering six punches simultaneously. However, it can be knocked out and picked up by other fighters.

 

[Shinuto]

Well, I see Sonic and maybe Mega Man get more representation, if anything, like in terms of characters, Knuckles, Tails, Shadow and maybe Eggman for Sonic and characters like Mega Man X and Zero for Mega Man

No,no no, not what their representation WOULD be, how would current representation be viewed if they were first party. Nothing else is changed about their additions to Smash.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I saw this like, Really annoying "Making Smash 6" video that was just "New game bad, Old game good" for like an hour.
Like this dude is doing stuff like changing Sonic to his genesis design for no reason and cutting the entire Xenoblade series.

 

[Undella2]

I saw this like, Really annoying "Making Smash 6" video that was just "New game bad, Old game good" for like an hour.
Like this dude is doing stuff like changing Sonic to his genesis design for no reason and cutting the entire Xenoblade series.

If it's the video I'm thinking of, I believe the creator's already well aware that such is a common opinion among this site's users.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

No,no no, not what their representation WOULD be, how would current representation be viewed if they were first party. Nothing else is changed about their additions to Smash.

I think I was trying to say or hint something like that. Well, maybe not. For Sonic, I could see him be overblown in the eyes of many in terms of many. As for Mega Man and maybe Pacman, I think they would have a decent amount of representation in the eyes of people. Not sure about the rest.

 

[AlRex]

It was a bit ago, but World of Light felt like a bad structure for an outright Adventure Mode, considering there’s other modes where you can basically do the same thing, more or less, and it got repetitive after a while. Make the Spirit matches more like Event Matches if they do come back. Though I’m skeptical on Spirits as a driving force for the game in general, and kind of hope the next game finds something more interesting than that.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I saw this like, Really annoying "Making Smash 6" video that was just "New game bad, Old game good" for like an hour.
Like this dude is doing stuff like changing Sonic to his genesis design for no reason and cutting the entire Xenoblade series.

I think its also the same video that replaced Cloud and Joker because of their association with PlayStation and keeping just Gen 1 Pokemon.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

That creator is also on this forum so let's avoid opening up that can of worms again.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Here's a fun nonsense hypothetical. If ALL current third parties were instead first party nintendo IPs, how would you view their series representation? in terms of stages, music, characters ATs/items etc and their timing of being introduced to Smash.

Practically all of them would be underrepresented in terms of playable characters. Only exceptions might be Pac-Man and Persona. Also, all of them would be viewed as added too late, with the exceptions being Bayonetta and, once again, Persona.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I think its also the same video that replaced Cloud and Joker because of their association with PlayStation and keeping just Gen 1 Pokemon.

Yeah it is. Although I kind of understand replacing Cloud and Joker but not cause of their Playstation association, Just to represent their series better.
Smash isn’t just about Nintendo anymore.

 

[cashregister9]

So, Xenoblade, Splatoon and ARMS don't have items.

Let's give them some!

Xenoblade: A Bitball from Xenoblade 2 would be fun, a combo of the Beastball and Boomerang
Splatoon: I like the idea of Using other Sub-weapons as Items so like Auto Bombs but something more unique that I've liked the idea of is the Tacticooler a soda dispenser that gives you a drink that makes you faster for a little bit
ARMS: The drones seem like a no-brainer, the different bombs and also the healing stuff. All of those would be great items

 

[smashkirby]

Possibly the best way to think about the ballot is that even though it's dated, a fact that will likely be considered to some extent, they also can't unsee the results, so if a character did well enough to garner some attention from Sakurai, it's fair to guess that character will still be on the radar going forward and is likely going to have the evolving state of their demand on monitor by Sakurai and the team.

I could have sworn that it was already determined that the Ballot was meant as a "well" to pick characters rather than being the end-all, be-all of 'if you have a TON of votes, your choice gets in'.

 

[fogbadge]

On the subject of splatoon items I’d like to once again suggest the Splatbrella as a new shooting item. It has so many shots, if you hold the fire button it puts up a shield, hold it for longer the shield is launched

ARMS and xenoblade items, I don’t really have any ideas that haven’t already been suggested

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I could have sworn that it was already determined that the Ballot was meant as a "well" to pick characters rather than being the end-all, be-all of 'if you have a TON of votes, your choice gets in'.

Hmmm, I know you aren't specifically talking to me, but I just want to make it clear that I don't think I have said that, if that is okay.

I mean, even with the Ballot, no character is necessarily guaranteed, right?

 

[smashkirby]

Hmmm, I know you aren't specifically talking to me, but I just want to make it clear that I don't think I have said that, if that is okay.

I mean, even with the Ballot, no character is necessarily guaranteed, right?

Oh, well... I mostly meant that around the time the Ballot ended or so, I feel like people actually took a better look at the Japanese version of the Ballot's webpage and realized that the whole thing about the character who got the most votes wasn't THE only method a character needs to get into Smash.

It was more so that as long as you suggested SOMEONE on the Ballot (who was viable for an appearance in Smash), they'd take them into genuine consideration.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Oh, well... I mostly meant that around the time the Ballot ended or so, I feel like people actually took a better look at the Japanese version of the Ballot's webpage and realized that the whole thing about the character who got the most votes wasn't THE only method a character needs to get into Smash.

It was more so that as long as you suggested SOMEONE on the Ballot (who was viable for an appearance in Smash), they'd take them into genuine consideration.

That is exactly what I believe I was trying to say. It does make sense.

Shame they couldn't get too many characters in the base game of the game following Smash 4, which was Smash Bros. Ultimate. They had done so much work to bring everyone back that it did not leave much time for anything else.